 Hello there. Hi there. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Oh, good. Oh, I think I have to log out and in again. I hear like a weird voice, like your voice really weird and it happened before and I'll be back in a second. Okay. Yeah, now it's weird. Be back. Okay. I hope it's better. How's that sound? Yeah, now, I don't know. It happens the third time it's happening. It's like this metallic kind of voice and first I thought it was the other person's connection. Yeah. And then everyone said no, I hear everyone fine. And then I just long in and out again and it's fine. I don't know what it is. You're in London, right? I am. Yeah. I don't know whether there, because there was like a big snowstorm and everything over there as well, right? Yeah, we didn't get so much where I live there. We got, we got a little bit, which to be fair is kind of a big snowstorm for the UK. Because we just don't, we don't get much snow. So it's super exciting that we got any snow at all and it actually stuck around for a couple of days, which is super unusual. It's actually a little better right now. It's been like, it's been like, I don't know, like 1112 degrees. So what? Oh, I'm, I'm more familiar with Salsis than her. Oh, good. Okay. I don't have to guess and do math in my head because that's hard. So it's been a lot, it's been a lot nicer and it's been not raining so we can actually get out and do some walks, which is good. Yeah, nice. I'm in DC, but I'm originally from Germany. Okay. And they got a lot of snow, like where my parents lived, it was like childhood memory, like that kind of snow did not exist for, yeah, like decades there hasn't been that kind of snow was really beautiful but Yeah, I can see pictures. I have friends in Berlin and I can see pictures of snow. Definitely pretty. Now we're all working from home. It doesn't really matter before I didn't like it because you had because of the commute. Now it's like, oh, yeah, snow is actually nice. Yeah, now it's not so bad. I sit inside of the cup of tea and look out the window. Hey, Steven. Hey, Josh. Hey there. Hey. Oh, wow. Hey, this is the first time I've had this in the background and a call. Welcome to my our second pantry. The, because the problem is that when you make like, eight or nine different ethnic cuisines, a regular size pantry is not big enough. So this pantry holds all the Indian stuff and all the sweet ingredients. See what else. Olive oil, got a lot of olive oil. Yes, we don't even have a single pantry. We live in a tiny flat. Yeah, well London. Yep. Why do you think I moved to Portland. Yeah, in Portland, I did. Well, my pantry wasn't as big as yours, but I had a pretty good size pantry and then I had more more shelves and the garage that I used for. Yeah, stuff too. So, okay, I didn't even know what we have on the agenda today. It's been a difficult week. So typed in. Wow. We don't, we don't even have an agenda today. Oh wait, no, yes, we do. Sorry, I wasn't. I did the same, I did the same thing. I didn't scroll far enough. Yeah. Okay. So we just start going through. Our, our agenda such as it is. For governance I don't have anything in particular to report because between power outages and being buried by unrelated work. I haven't advanced any of my particular to do this. So we'll discuss last meeting. Dawn, was there anything for governance to discuss here. No, I've made no progress on anything. So yeah, sorry. I did lots of work presentations, internal. Yeah, that's what I've spent the last two weeks doing. Yeah. Yeah, for my part we have upcoming we have back to back. We've had summit in Kubecon spring. So it's consuming my life right now. Oh, Kubecon. Yeah, I don't know why anybody even goes for that, but it's part of my job. Hey dude, I'm going to be, I'm going to be getting up at three in the morning in order to attend Kubecon. So, the suckers are the ones who are doing all the reviews, right? Thank you. Thank you for your thoughtful reviews. But do we actually before we continue with the agenda. Do we have a new face. Anita. Yeah, hi. So all of us because we should introduce ourselves to it's not that many people. No, yeah. I, I definitely am aware, I believe, of most of you, just from having senior activities with the CNCF. My name is Anita. I work for a small company called RXM. I'm a cloud native training and consulting firm and we usually like to try to hop in as many CNCF meetings as possible just to keep up with the cloud native space and check out what's going on. So I'm really here more of as an observer, just to see, you know, the work that you guys are doing and try to inform my team. Cool. I'm Josh, I work for Red Hat. I got involved with this mainly from the governance side of things. I'm Don Boster. I work for VMware and likewise I'm interested in kind of governance and community strategy topics, which is what I do at VMware. So that's why I'm here. I'll go. I'm Catherine. I'm with buoyant and interested in the whole strategy and more the technical ways of improving that. Hey, I'm Steven Augustus. I am alongside Josh and Paris, one of the co-chairs. Yeah, I do some Kubernetes stuff and would love to do more like it across the CNCF. Sorry, I'm off video because I have a ginormous sandwich that I'm making to myself. I'm Carolyn van Slike. I work at Microsoft and I help lead the contributed growth working group here. Yeah, thanks so much for introducing. It's really great to talk and meet with all of you. I've definitely seen your names and faces all over the space so it's exciting to get to hear you guys work together and talk a bit about this. Everyone was incredibly humble with their introduction. Maybe it's because like you guys feel like you're in the work you're so in the zone that it doesn't quite feel as big but what from an outside perspective, it's definitely very different. I agree. Okay. So, back to our agenda and by the way, as a warning, I need to drop at 11 my time. So, Steven if you can take over at that point. Or anytime before then if you want to. Yeah, the. Okay, so contributed growth has some stuff to report. Carolyn. Catherine has submitted the first PR for the framework feedback, and it's looking really good. I think we just have like a couple edits and then we can merge it. I think we still need more feedback or addressing feedback on the playbook for the recruiting playbook so not quite sure what the status of this PR is, if we need more reviews or we just need to work on the feedback that was given. I mean, to extend though, we can improve things and push them to the website I'm in favor of getting MVPs up there because even if it's not, you know, complete and extensive it's better than nothing. Oh my gosh, I am 100% with you on that I'd much rather merge it and then have other people who have ideas and edits submit their own PR on top and having one person try to coordinate and synthesize a bunch of feedback into text. Yeah, it's not fun. Let's not ask people to do that. So I definitely like to merge stuff sooner. What's the, what's the order of operations is it the content. The, the one with the mage file in it. Does that one have to go in first. Oh, for the website. Um, now it's the other way around since you have contribute needs to get merged first. And then we can merge the other one. Because it references that the main website that actually does the build is in our repository and just some content is in CNC of contribute. But the content needs to be in the right directory structure. That's why we need that first. Cool, cool, cool. Okay, so who needs to approve stuff on the contributory pro for it to merge. Yeah, I just paint them again this morning to see. Okay. Yeah, I would say let's set up a meeting on the horse calendar. You know, and just say this is this is when we're merging everything. I think that's going to work better. Okay, and keep in mind he's European time so the Well, even further field actually, right. Yeah, but he stays up late. I'm just saying scheduling a meeting at three p.m. Pacific would not be successful. The, I think he's GMT plus what three four something like that. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's going to be the way to go is just go ahead and put a meeting on his calendar and call it merging new contributor site. Because, because the problem is you can't really do this asynchronously because if you merge the can the stuff in the contribute repo, and then don't merge the other stuff for 24 hours. I mean mind you, nobody really uses the current contribute site so even if it was down for 24 hours. I'm not convinced anyone would notice. I wouldn't make the current contribute site down just to be. Oh really. No, no. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well then forget what I said about the meeting just. Oh, nag him nag him about merging it. Yeah. Okay, I'll do that. I'll keep going at it. Yeah, he's on it as of 37 minutes ago looks like he he responded to great. Okay, cool. Yeah, and then we'll be good and then we can start adding more things because Saturday gave a thumbs up on sub projects template. Although I still have pending edits from dawn on that so the so we'll be merging that quite yet but it's it's technically approved because the edits are small wording things. It's not anything that needs to be approval by our liaison. Speaking of which, we should do some kind of meeting with the liaisons, because we have a new liaison. Yeah, it'd be great to meet him. So, the, we can invite them to our next. Next meeting, or is that in your circle. No, no, that's meeting after next. So, so next week we could actually do it. Cool. Ooh, and someone else will need to run the ball for that because I will miss the first half hour of next week. So, actually, isn't this every other week this meeting. Oh, you're right. It is every other week. So next meeting is maintained or so it is maintain your circle. So yeah, we're not going to have it not, we're not going to get them until the end of March. So, okay. I have a question. Have we come back about the proposal for our talk to keep kind of you. So I think we need to be doing about that. Your email address is on it yeah. Should be. I don't know when the acceptance is go out. I don't know. I mean you would hear first, basically. Well, then I've heard nothing. Yeah. All right, yes. Someone would know. Someone would know exactly what the timing is. So I think we've, I think we've said it. Have we said it? Maybe probably. Next week. Okay. For the, at least for the, was it submitted as a main track or maintain or track. It's maintain or track. Probably still next week. All right. I will keep a lookout. Yeah, we've got a meeting later today to firm up some final bits. So coming soon. Okay. I just need to know when I should start freaking out about not having finished the talk. Oh, you can freak out. Oh good. I like to just get these things out of the way, you know, yeah, you get it, get it out of the way, get it on the, let's get it out of the way. Okay. Okay. So more on contributor growth. No, that's it. Okay. Cool. Okay. I'm going to close the agenda again. Sorry. Hold the various pull requests up. Just in time. Because I think she's next up on the agenda. Oh, perfect. Maintain or circle next. Next cycle. Yes. I think we're still looking for one more presenter. If I remember correctly. I think Sarah and about. We're going to be our first presenter. It's parents on the call. Yeah. Apparently not. What's the, what's the topic? Give me one sex if I did. I think Paris said she could attend the second half of this call. Not the first. I'm sorry. I was asking if Paris was around because I haven't hosted it before. So I've read through all the documentation, but I just wanted to have someone on backup to make sure I don't think. Sorry. I'm still looking for the topic. Yeah. Okay. Steven, do you want to introduce inclusive naming. Initiative. Yeah. So for the folks who had an opportunity to hang out on the last maintainer circle, Celeste and I walked you through some like scenarios around. What you might do if you wanted to change names. Of things in your project. For the inclusive naming initiative. We're starting to kick off work streams. The work streams are broadly like categorized as a pillar or sort of pillar or vertical work streams and program or horizontal work streams. Roughly modeled after the, the Kubernetes sig model. And so for the pillars, we have OSS. Enterprise and company and standards development organizations or SDOs, right? For the program level, there are, there is a language work stream marketing comms PR work stream and a community and tooling community and tooling work stream, which is somewhat analogous to like. Kubernetes sig contributor experience or, or the contributor strategy. So intake, discussing different tools. The reason I mentioned these work streams is the, the OSS work stream is kicking off next week. And if anyone is interested, I felt it would be a, be a good meeting to talk about if y'all are interested in hanging out. I sent a note out to the mailing list as well as the Slack channels. And if you're interested in hanging out with us, the, there's a link in the meeting notes that will lead you to a mailing list thread, which will lead you to a doodle poll that you can vote on and choose your time. And I'll send out invites for that going into next week. And Don, I know you had a comment about the times. It's hard. So it's a hard time. Yeah, I pulled as many times as I could. Yeah. Well, the problem is like everybody's trying to hit the sweet spot, right? Where you can get the Pacific, you know, West coast and you can get Europe and all the meetings are in that time slot. Exactly. I get this. This is, this is how I live my life is just time zone hell. Is what it is. So yeah, also, like, if you're interested in the community and tooling one that should be kicking off soon as well. The difference between the two since this has come up before is that community and tooling is kind of intended as the intake, whether it be bringing in new contributors to the initiative or discussing tools that people have made and they may want to donate or they may want us to integrate into the overall initiative. Whereas the OSS side is more about think governance working group, right? So I think like I want to execute this within my open source project. I don't know how to get started. I need a framework or I learned some things as I was doing this in my open source project and I'd like to share them. That's kind of what the open source one will be around. Any questions, comments, concerns? Wildly massive interest. If I can't commit to doing something regularly, should I just not fill out the doodle and just lurk and drop in? Fill out the doodle. Absolutely fill out the doodle. There is no attendance requirement really. Whenever I do doodles, I, you know, it's the people that have to be in the room or get priority choice and then everything else is like, it's, it's like for the most part I'm going to try to get as many people in the room as possible. But yeah, hopefully, hopefully there'll be a convenient time for you. Thanks, that helps. I'll show up there. Yeah, I didn't fill out the doodle because actually I have conflicts for almost all the projected times. So it would not be helpful. But it's okay. I'm just doing this honestly because I have the to do list around the projects that I help out. And I figure I should keep track. I'm just like, I need to. And I particularly want to know about those tools, right? Like if somebody creates a tool to generate an automated PR, to replace, you know, to tag all of the commonly not accepted terms. I would love to have that tool. Yeah, we're talking about, so I know on the Kubernetes side, there's some discussion around proud plugins for issues. That one went up on the mailing lists earlier today, I believe. There is work that Nikita, I believe is doing on a slack. Integration. I think it's proud based proud plus slack equals fun. And then from the, at least from the red hat side, I know that. I know that Jason Jason Brooks is one of the leaders here. And then there's also, I don't know if Carson is getting involved too. So Carson is going to be hanging out both on the, the OSS and probably the language work streams. Okay. So Karen, do you have the stuff now? Yes. So the March 11th event will be focused on values and principles development. Again, Sarah speaking. I work at Microsoft. I don't know. I guess I need some help looking for another speaker. I'm not totally sure what her exact topic will be within that theme. But I will check in with Sarah, just to make sure we don't overlap with anything. But if anyone has any leads for speakers on this topic, please let me know. You said we need two speakers for this topic. Just one. Sarah Navani will be presenting and we need a second speaker on values and principles development. Yeah, I was going to say it like. I don't think a second speaker is strictly required. Yeah. We've been doing two. Oh, I guess we haven't always done two. That's true. I feel like we run out of time really easily because we always talk more than we allocate for. So I think it may be better just to have one speaker. And I think for, for, for Sarah in particular, I like, I would, I would listen to that for hours. I think just having Sarah as a speaker is probably fine. Okay. Yeah. Maybe we should update the, the docs to like the hosting guide as well as to say like, it doesn't always have to be two speakers. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Look at us solving problems. I'm so proud. Just for just in a room, knocking it out of the ballpark. Yeah. Of course metaphor. Okay. So there's a couple other items on the agenda and I don't know if I should speak up and take. This is meta group and take control of that. If Paris added those, then we'll just wait for Paris to join in about four or five minutes. The, and for me to leave. So I'll find out what they are later. So. Otherwise. I really hope it's for coming up with a strategy for contributing to the strategy. That's crossing my fingers when Paris shows up. That's what's going to be. Sounds very reclusive. Recursive. Yes. I want a recursive meta group. Yeah. Did you mean recursive meta group? I'm sorry, I'm going to go. I'm going to go. One of my favorite Google search gags. The, um, no, we have a recursive metal group. It's, it's a garage band that plays in a garage that's inside another garage. That is actually another garage band. Yes. We only do covers. And it's covers of the other garage band. And it's covered, right? It's covers of covers. So yeah. We also do comedy. We also do comedy. Yes. In the charter. Yeah. The. So yeah. Otherwise, I don't know. I, you know, we'll wait for Paris for the other things we have. Our stuff scheduled. Um, you know, we'll get back to governance soon. Karen. Among the stuff I haven't touched is the contributor ladder guide at all. Split it. You want to explain the split? Oh yeah. Well, so. Cause it's a template for anyone to use. We ended up with this. You know, choose any three items. You know, our, our own sort of, um, Uh, you know, meet in three menu. Um, of different potential contributor roles. But nobody is going to use all of these roles because I think there's like 13 of them. Um, and, um, After talking about last contributor growth, we realized that most of them were specific flavors of maintainer role. And so we're going to split it into a simple file. That will just have maintainer as a role. And then we're going to have a separate file to say, Hey, if you have a big or structurally complicated project, you may need some of these other maintainer roles. Do you have, um, Sorry, I haven't been following, but, uh, do you have something in the way of program manager? What do you mean by program manager? Uh, so Lori, uh, who is the program manager for SIG release and Kubernetes, um, wrote some pretty extensive stuff. Uh, and PR it earlier today. Um, I can dig that up. Um, around kind of expectations or are kind of codifying what she's been doing in, in SIG release and how it can be. I think as far as the contributor ladder is concerned, I think that would just fall under. Um, like some project lead. Um, Not quite the, um, I did put like a bullet point for project manager because originally when I was doing this, I had a maintainer section and then I broke it down into, um, like other suggestions of like community maintainer project, making a release manager docs manager. So there is a section we could tuck under. Um, if you wanted to specifically call out project manager under maintainer, does that make sense? Yeah, can you share the link? Um, and then we'll take a look. Yeah, sure. Uh, Thanks. I just popped that in the, uh, agenda. I think this one is particularly interesting because it is, um, as we kind of talk about maintainer burnout and, you know, just sustainability overall, a lot of the, a lot of the work that we do sometimes as chairs, leads approvers, yada, yada, yada is work that is not necessarily properly federated. Um, it just, we just become like the, the, like the funnel of last resort kind of thing. Um, so I think that, you know, I think that definitely in Kubernetes we're seeing some of this, uh, strain, whether it be across like having to review technical PRs, but also doing, uh, you know, also like building a roadmap for a SIG, right? Um, and these are not necessarily tasks that need to be done by just one set of people. I think the program manager role, um, has been super useful to me, definitely, um, to have a little bit more clarity on thinking about technical strategy as opposed to, um, you know, maybe, maybe like setting up project boards, um, which is still a thing I do. And it's not necessarily like supposed to be relegated to, to any one role. Um, but there are some things that there, there, there are some extra things that we, uh, we have while we're holding the hat, like while we're wearing the hat, it's like, do all these things. And then, um, it definitely, it definitely drives down like your ability to focus on any one thing. Um, well, so, um, program manager has been super helpful for me. This is where I can just like stand up and applaud because I want a program manager. Yes, we need more. So, I mean, the, the big thing about it too is that, um, you know, while we had, while we had SIG PM, um, you know, SIG PM was definitely a thing that, you know, was towards the end of just kind of dragging it by its feet. Um, I'm like, come on, we're going to do, we're going to do PXM type stuff. Um, but I am not, I'm not a trained P anything. Um, and the, the people who are interested in this, like it did not have enough of a framework. It was not listed as a role that you could do. So I think just the fact that it is on paper somewhere for a project, um, has the potential to drive, uh, drive new contributions, right? We have, we have a bunch of products program project managers in Kubernetes that don't know where to jump in because it is, it's not a named role, right? So. Oh, it will be soon. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The R is up today. It's going down. Cool. All right. So. What else have we, we've, we've hit meta group. Is there anything that people want to cover? Um, before, uh, Uh, Now it's time to just send Paris passive aggressive DMs with lots of emoji. We're waiting for you. Yeah, waiting for Paris. Yeah, exactly. No pressure. Um, and Carolyn, that may be also for you. So I'm going through your comments on the framework. Um, Yeah. To be clear, you don't need to make all of them. They're just suggestions. If we want, we can just. Yeah. I think there was like one thing that need to be fixed and then we can just merge and iterate. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's do that. Um, I think there was. I think there was one maybe phrasing change. Oh yeah. That was actually stroke. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the permission from the interviewers, I think he got most of them, right? Yeah. I got them all like Paris was the only one missing, but she did this morning. So. Perfect. I added her back, but haven't, haven't committed it yet. But so, um, so once that is there. And of course one of things that we want is like feedback from the group or feedback to move towards merge, because I think it is pretty ready at this point. Yeah. I think, I think you just had one change. And if that's in, then I think we're, I can just merge it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do we get that? What are the next steps? We just put it in the slack and so on or. Slack the mailing lists, shop it around to your, um, your, your community as well. Well. Yeah. Yeah. I can just merge it. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Hi. Well, I'll Catherine, I'll wait for your commit. You said you had one pending. That you haven't put in the PR yet. I'm still going to your comments, but, um, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Just ping me. Let me know. And then we'll get it merged. Awesome. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Harris, you were, you were up with, um, was that you with a meta group stuff? Yeah, I put a lot of stuff on here. Sorry. I was in another meeting. Um, the meta group stuff was that I need to. Or we need to update the charter with a new roadmap and the graduation requirements for the guidance. And I think maybe what you all were just talking about. Um, I think the guidance would be what we discussed in the last couple of meetings where sod needs to approve and then, um, and then the TOC needs to approve. Um, so that needs to go in. I don't know if anybody has comments on that, but let's collect some new roadmap items as well. Since we've completed a lot of what's on the roadmap currently. Um, I think the meta group leads for each one. Um, kind of gave maybe like a little ambiguous blurb about, you know, what we're going to do in 2021. Um, kind of like what we have in there now, you know, just like our, our next, our next few steps and, and what we're going to be delivering to the community. Um, and then the, like the follow up to that was. I have not, um, fall. I haven't followed up with the thread. I haven't seen anybody here saw any, any of the guidance that sod had approved yet. So I saw some emails floating around. I did not dig in yet. So see if we can find it. Like, I mean, based, based on the lab, based on my last tracking, I think sod had comments and that nothing was approved yet. But I think that's what we need to do before we give out the project template stuff to see NCF projects to use. Yeah, there's a question about. What's the best way to provide feedback? I think that's the last thing that he said. I think I should have responded to that, that there was an umbrella issue. Okay. Um, let me look. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you did. Yeah. So it sounds like we just have to poke him again. I mean, I think he left calm. I saw some comments come through. So I think there's comments like around town. So we just need to figure out at this point, a way to. Get better with tracking what's approved versus not. Um, I don't know if that's just like an issue or a spreadsheet or. Or what. Cause like right now we're just doing, we're actually doing back approvals on stuff that's already been merged. Yeah. So, um, So yeah, that's the, the problem, the current problems that is doing back approvals and then current approvals. So it's pretty, it's just pretty messy for him right now. I think. Yeah, he's got, yeah, his, his, his comment is, you know, adding a disclaimer that it's suggested and not required or forcing a governance model or anything. I think that makes sense. That's really, that was it for the meta group stuff. Cool. All right. So we are at the bottom of our agenda. Does anyone else have things they want to cover before we head out? Paris for you. Um, we had talked about the, uh, maintainer circle stuff. Um, and. I think for the group, we're, so yeah, Karen's question was, you know, do we need another speaker? And I think a few of us are like, Sarah is probably enough for, for the session. And we usually go over anyway. So, um, I think we're, should we add that to guidance? Or does the guidance explicitly state that? The, the guidance. No, the guidance says that it should be two, but the idea is that it's supposed to be science and then relatable. So like, that's why it was supposed to be two. But in the case where Sarah has been a maintainer. You know, I would say that that's fine. Um, but the guidance just says to try for two in that case where it's the science and then the relatable. Um, Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's just, it just says that as guidance, it doesn't say required. So that's totally fine. Um, cool, cool. Anything else come up with, um, maintainer circle or anything else? Okay, cool. Yay. Go team. All right. So this will catch you all later. Catch you at the next one. Okay. See you. See you everybody. Hey, y'all. Hi. Hi. Good day everyone.