 Thank you Anzou, thank you Anzou for your beautiful presentation. We saw two very far edges of investment amounts and we can see that even in the most difficult situations it's possible to make very likely spaces. I mean the two, these two very different contexts they show us that it's possible to create always, it's always possible to create nice spaces for having fun. So now I'm going to invite for, to sit here on the stage, Pahar Ezynski, right? Did I pronounce right? Yeah, Pahar is a planner and researcher at Myanmar, Sindhant, and she's actually working with her students on design guidelines for parents and children. Please Edward, you please come back. Aish Orlund, she's a professor at KD and she has a KD on product design at Myanmar. And she recently run a studio which is part of the initiative to establish a master's program by AirBanai5. And finally, Alexander Lange, she's an architecture, Alexander, an architecture critic and she wrote the book called Design of Childhood, how the material world shaped our kids. So is it working here? So I would like to bring them into the conversation. So I would like Pahar to comment. I mean we saw, let's say, two edges of the spectrum. And we see that both edges work. And you are working specifically on design guidelines. And we imagine also the difficulty which is to establish, where do we stop? Until where do we go? Which sort of guidelines do we need? And so I would like you to comment a little bit on this presentation and Pahar's refers also to this idea of where should we, what should we reach? What should we establish? How it relates to this idea of guidelines for our city. Difficult question. Actually, I mean, my playground is Istanbul, of course, I'm based in here. So I have a very difficult playground. So then it is very difficult to find a starting point. Istanbul has many different typologies in families, social areas, cultural areas, and of course economic levels differs between the neighbourhoods. So what I do is with my students, we do shadowing projects and observations to see how parents or the caregivers deal with their kids and the city together, how they move around to see what city, what they are doing. So what we do is just walking in the streets or in the basement part and make long-term observations on the parents and the kids. But of course, I mean, when you are working in a neighbourhood, they are the people who are living there. So your target group is mainly based there. But in Istanbul, there are many cases that there are lots of children living in gated communities, studying in private schools, and they are moving in the city with cars or buses. So they have a different perception of the city. So it's another case, which we are not focused on very much. But on the other hand, affordances is a very, very important context for Istanbul because most of the kids are not walking to their primary schools. They are taken by their parents or their cars. The only place that they experience the city by walking is around the playgrounds or maybe the small streets in front of their houses. So it is something else when you try to find out some guidelines because the distance that they live is quite different than the whole city scale. And the place, the play that they are playing or the time how they are spending in the street differs. So what we see mostly is the parents are so sceptic about the kids. So I think, first of all, I'm an urban planner, but I think we have to start with the parents. And we need to educate them, yes, convince them. That was the word I was looking for. We need to convince them that their kids will be safe in the streets because there are also other people. Okay, we need larger sidewalks, better lighting maybe, or the zebra crossings on the streets. But then, even when we are just able to do this, they are going to be safe. And we need to let the children play on the streets, even though for that we don't need any guidelines actually because when you have a small pond of the rain on the sidewalk, all the kids can play and have fun and want to go out. They don't need specifically to these very fancy playgrounds every day at least. They also want to go to the beautiful playgrounds there and play there, but not for every day. So basically these guidelines are to give a minimum that allows life to flourish. The city life, and I think the main target is to invite all the people, not only the kids, but everyone to the public spaces. Which I find very, very important. And in between the local authorities and the social initiatives. In Istanbul, local authorities have many things to do. So they cannot focus on each issue. So that's why I find it very important for NGOs to be on the streets trying to do something and help people to understand their needs. And it's interesting because if we think about tactical urbanism and temporary intervention, we have a whole different set of guidelines which are performed in a very short amount of time in order to create a connection between people and the environment, right? Yeah, and when you see the results, it's really working. I mean, when people are free to use their streets as they want and they start to demand afterwards. I think that's what we need, especially in Istanbul. Because if you don't demand, usually you don't get what you need. So one of the aims was to make people aware of their abilities to create their own public spaces. Yes, it can be out of standards, but still you can make it work. So that's what we experienced from our event. So what is the follow-up on this project? I missed when it was, was it this year or a couple of years back? Different years. Actually, we had to stop it four years ago, yes. And we're still questioning ourselves what should we do next, because there are different opinions in our group. Like, maybe we're not just working in just one street continuously every month to organize these events and change the streets with the involvement of the residents, like participation of the residents to the change it. My question actually was, are they picking it up? Picking it up, yes. That means, are they afterwards going to do this themselves? Or are they waiting for you? They're usually waiting for us. So that's why we wanted to share this toolkit for others. Because if you want them, okay, this is what we have done so far, but you can also do this. You have the ability to organize yourself. So that was the main reason of the toolkit. We talked a little bit and you are pretty much in the process of designing how they come together to an end. But I have, I mean, you have a background, sorry, you have a PhD as a product designer, right? And I think one important question is industry, right? Because when we see the regular playgrounds around cities, they are just a replication of the same swingers, the same bouncers, and there are very few variations. And I'm wondering, I mean, what can we expect from them and is there a way to, how to transform the way that they, the kind of products that they offer if the new technologies of fabrication, they are already changing those products? I mean, if you put... Well, I mean, the basic principle and the driver of the industry is profit, basically. So, but I still believe that design has the power, of course, to bring up variety, but focusing on people. So, most of the time what we see today is many of the municipalities also in Turkey and Istanbul are, they are looking at catalogs, like catalog products and what in the old school of designing from product design perspective, we always design the product and then series of products and then a catalog comes up. And then what happens, I believe, in the urban design context is that there is this, the location that's drawn, the frame is drawn there and then it's like a, you know, just look at the plan and it's like a decoration that's looking from a playground equipment catalog. So, there is no real intact interaction with the user. I mean, the user is sometimes 0 to 3 year old and then sometimes it's 12 year old, younger kids and it's most of the time also caregivers, caretakers. So, what I do suggest is that I think designers, if they have the interdisciplinary approach of looking at the urban space, looking at observation from each height and looking at the behavioural patterns of people from location to location. I mean, we know that some of the participants from different municipalities and we know that the interaction with the kids and the families are different on public space. So, taking this into consideration needs a broader vision from the designer in perspective. So, I think designers, either they're urban designers or product designers or architects, they should look at it as the whole pattern of, you know, human centred activities. How the traffic flows of people or, you know, at daytime, what is the density at daytime and what happens after 6 o'clock. So, my notes, I have the keyword of transition from Alger's project and his perspective. So, these transitional possibilities actually brings up the context of hybrid products and hybrid approaches. So, in my neighborhood also there's a very small, very regular and boring playground where there's a basketball field, which is used, I have a daughter who's 6 years old, but she, because on the street she doesn't have a flat surface for riding her bike or her scooter, but what happens is that when the kids in the neighborhood don't play basketball in that field, all the kids are there just to, you know, use up all their vehicles of each kind, you know, from all age groups. So, I think the idea of this transition I wanted to ask I think should, you know, bring up more, let's say, genuine approach or like, you know, research for a new language or a new way of new products and integrated perspective. Do you think this kind of, you know, came up in your experience of a long span of, you know, dealing with play or you think there can be guidelines or we can just, I don't know, how can we say that this is something important to new young designers, let's say? May I just ask a question to Albert? We bring back the question of industry. If you see a transformation of industry and the industry that supplies equipment and that builds the parts in, I mean, if you see a transition, if you can identify or something that, I mean, it was always like that in South of Anaype, I don't know. Interesting thing is actually I remember you mentioning Oguchi. I cannot even do it better than he did it. And the funny thing is that over the years things have changed. In the 60s and 70s, many architects and artists were involved in playgrounds in many different ways. And somewhere this has changed. The industry came in, standards came in and actually the standards are from that perspective actually a bad thing because the industry took that as saying you need to, you need us because otherwise it's unsafe. And then the whole thing changed and I noticed that play has become, in the general sense of the word, has become another important factor in many things since 2000, maybe even before. And slowly this is trickling down again to the playground. Strangely enough where we see that we need to have a different approach where we have the junior playground is the best playground there is and the highest hill with a muddy slide is the best playground there is. Society goes in waves and so does the playground design. Alexander, you showed yesterday to us, I mean, some of your findings on your book and I want to ask you something which connects with our Zoom presentation which is was it possible to map also, I mean, I know that you looked specifically in how these play spaces they evolved over time but by looking at this, could you do some findings on how also, well, this word didn't exist before but how technical urbanism evolved over time what means I mean how other kinds of informal appropriation of space changed. I think in a strange way the informal appropriation of space has changed the least. I mean, I showed a picture of a plain street from 1910 in New York City that doesn't look so different from the plain streets that you just showed in your presentation. You know, and Simon said earlier today closing a street is really this incredibly powerful thing and it evokes the most basic kind of play with the simplest possible materials. So that really, I mean, I think it's great because that really is step one. But I also think that designers who've made permanent spaces can learn from that and have learned from that and I was really glad that Elgar brought up out of the night. I think it's hard to design playgrounds in Amsterdam and not think about overnight because I talk about him a lot in my book. He's really inspirational and the thing that always gets an audience of designers is saying that he designed 700 playgrounds, that's the number I use because, you know, who among us can say that they made 700 of anything? And the way that he did that, I think, was by making a really, really simple kit of parts that's kind of one step up in permanence from the simple things that you can bring to a street. He has, you know, these kind of, I would call them concrete tufts and he has a sandbox and he has these metal climbing hoops. So these things are permanent but they're not out for stall other possibilities in that space. So it has that kind of double functioning and has that kind of affordance but it is permanent. It means that it can't be taken back for cars but it's still available really for all other uses. So I feel like Van Eyck is still this model that if we're talking about guidelines if we're talking about really simple playgrounds that's where we should be looking and the fact that he made 700 of them is an indication that, like, a city, there was enough space in the city for that kind of play at that scale. The reason why he did it, to build communities in the new modernized layout of Amsterdam bringing people outside again which is actually the same thing as we are discussing here. And a lot of them were cited when people from one neighborhood saw that another neighborhood had gotten a playground and wrote a letter to Van Eyck's boss, Jochoba Mulder and said we would like a playground. So it was like a push and a pull from the city government and so that's how they appeared. The word community popped out at some of the presentations. And then I cannot bring the question about public spaces because I believe that all of us are advocates for the importance of keeping space public but you showed, for example, in your presentation that you have a design in Istanbul. You said you know my work because of this part that's part of a private compound. So what is the role of private space in cities like Istanbul or like Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and what are the risks associated? What are the benefits associated? I mean how do you this is a question for no, it's not only for you but I also want to have the voices of Istanbul. I think it's important. May I start? I find this a very difficult question because it brings me into position when should a designer step in or when shouldn't he machine? And in the Netherlands we actually don't have private public spaces as you know in many other parts of the world so for me that was strange and new and I had to think about why should I do this and then afterwards I start realizing that in other parts of the world probably in Brazil but also in Asia they didn't step out. They are not catering for these places anymore so who am I to say that a private party should not step in and have this? I cannot say don't because actually the center works pretty well in the neighborhood and it's a public space in that sense of course there are conditions when you should say yes or no I don't want to judge from that Ok So maybe you can comment I think in my point of view private public spaces are ok we have this existence in our city scales and it's a part of city pattern right now and we need to accept them and we need to create a network including all these playgrounds and it too we have some playgrounds good or bad I mean we can discuss it some of them are really eager to do good things but they don't have good budgets to work with the designers but still they offer spaces but Zorlo has a bigger budget and a different point of view so they have you which is a very important thing for Istanbul I think so in an upper scale I think we need to gather them all I mean like a playground in the city we need to create a network with them not also spotting only in the playground but also including the small streets some of them that Arzu is working on or maybe in gardens of some primary schools which are mostly closed in the weekends so I think this is what we need to focus on I mean Zorlo playground is one of this part of this network but we need to create the network before we need to have a vision balance between private and public spaces within the city the proportion of private and public spaces because it's saying okay we don't have any qualified public spaces let's have these kind of private spaces if you say okay to this it will pop up numbers of these spaces will increase so I think there should be a balance sometimes these kind of private public spaces especially for children can work but still we I think we should demand for public spaces which are accessible for all of the people you mentioned there were schools and you mentioned the spaces that the schools have and the schools have what's your vision about the role that schools can play in the network of when I was in primary school we had my primary school is a very central point and dance point in Istanbul it was a very nice garden and it has very low walls so everybody can access but after a certain time they start to close the walls so nobody can go inside after the school closes you cannot go inside the garden it's still right but they're empty spaces especially for the weekends when you take your kid out and try to find a space or let them run or play whatever they like they can use that space so there is a built network of spaces which are not used on weekends there is a huge potential there are parking spaces there are parking spaces right now this initiative was the mayor to make sure every child was within 10 minutes of an open space which is a rubric that's often mentioned and they basically opened all the schoolyards to kind of solve their problems instantaneously which has been great and we use it for exactly that purpose of riding bikes and scooters but the great thing was that after the schoolyards were opened on weekends then people started to look at the schoolyards and say okay but this is just black top there's no trees here it's open space but it's not green space so then a bunch of the schoolyards got trees a bunch of the schoolyards got additional facilities so it was like the first step of just making them open was cheap to free and then the next step was people started to see them as an opportunity and that has brought more green space to more cities so it's a great thing to identify and then to see the potential sites in the Netherlands now to have the schoolyards although we don't have yards we have front yards it's a different to keep them open and it actually says what the book to active city is a borderless spaces and one of the spaces that we use for the spaces are these schoolyards so every schoolyard doesn't have a fence anymore and it works pretty well going back to the private and public and example of carving Zoro center I think is a good example because it also shows us good design cases can also teach communities that they can ask for a higher quality services because we have been we have a tendency to complain about how badly things are designed but then hiring up a little bit the level of design sensitivity and design perception I think we need to also kind of provoke the market you know with examples that are not similar to the mainstream catalog design ambience so I think I see it as a potential and quality that can add up to the whole scene of playground and outdoor play equipment so I think this is an opportunity to learn from to have a variety of things and a different perspective towards design so that people start because we also have this when we are teaching design we always say you know haven't you seen that haven't you seen this and then it's like okay now go and see it and now let's discuss it so that they can have a vision for their future so that maybe we can have more questioning new generation of designers so that they will start questioning the private and the public and then the accessibility to good design I see there's an opportunity that the private capital can bring in as a positive value to the discussion one last question before we open to the audience Azur but you can comment please Azur I mean you manage public space and private and I want to know if you had if you know cases of community management on public space so spaces which are public but they are managed by communities do you know any case or instable another city or the neighbor where I'm living succeeded to reclaim a green space in the neighborhood very important public space it used to be a field kind of let's say left over space and they fight for it and succeeded to turn it into a very successful working community garden and it was a result of collaboration between the neighborhood and the municipality and also other supporters and they didn't give up for a long time I mean for 20 years they stood up and okay we don't want any because it was under threat of stealing a hospital instead of a green space so they they asked okay we need this space as green space and the social public space that we can all access and use actively so I think that's one of the most successful examples in Istanbul Local neighborhood architectural designers so I mean not maybe strongly but but the participation of the residents was a part of this process so I think the needs of the neighborhood especially the residents and children were involved so that's one of the good examples I think because this is initiative where programming by organizations should have a follow up that is actually the question that I wanted to ask you is there any follow up that is taken over by the community because otherwise you can show them if there is no follow up it doesn't make sense but this is a perfect example of how it should be and how municipalities should be a little bit more flexible in assisting with these initiatives because it will make their spaces much nicer or better used municipalities saw that it was really successful and then started another community garden in another neighborhood with the same design so when you show them with the participation of the residents it's a good design and good solution and that is easier for municipalities to improve those kind of projects that's great I want to ask the audience for their questions their comments I'm a bit excited because I'm a student like there are so many planners and professionals it may sound a bit raw to ask my question I'm an architecture student in ITU we're working on space for children in character considering the future renovation or restoration projects already going on, some things are going on my question is I see we're mostly looking at the subject from a city planning perspective or policy creative perspective or making people more cautious about how to approach things but from an architectural view I don't think we can separate the residential areas directly from the socializing areas playgrounds somewhere and residencies somewhere for example we start building a new residency and we have a very limited space for playgrounds so how do we create residencies especially buildings concrete buildings with the playgrounds or streets creating this transition between the buildings and the playgrounds also making maybe the buildings playgrounds that's my question I like especially Mr. Bills because I'm an architect maybe he can get a more architectural perspective okay first of all we need to question why isn't there enough space that's a financial question because we don't dedicate this space for this public space we only build but on the other hand I would say even if there's a little space because that is what I was trying to say you can do a lot sometimes a small intervention can actually cause a lot and there's always spaces in between buildings so what is the minimum that you can do to to create what you actually want I know for an example somewhere we had a footprint of 15 square meters so we thought let's go work like the buildings to create something on the other hand the book The Active City there's another book called The Active Building there's also for people actually to exercise in buildings how can we make our buildings for a healthy living I can see playing being part of that we are used to using elevators and not using the stairs anymore but that's the simplest example that I can give is to implement these things in either buildings or small spaces with a large result you only need to persuade the people that are making these buildings that is where the problem probably is okay I think there is someone over there right your team is there someone else there also thank you this is a question for Arzu I'm really interested to hear more about your model for the street is ours so how long were the streets closed for did you take the cars out from the streets did you program them and the second part of the question is have you looked at other models for play streets from other parts of the world so for instance I'm very familiar with the model from the UK which is a resident led model so you build in from the start that residents own the process they decide that they want to close the street for an hour a week or an hour a month the municipality sorts out the paperwork so that they can do that and then you have a model that is sustainable from the start because the municipality can say to all the other streets here we now have a process where you can apply as a resident and you can close your streets within reason as much as you want search and inspire from different models and different examples from all around the world about this Sunday car free Sundays and other names the process was not a butt month that's coming from the residents because first you have to give this idea to the people that this kind of thing can work and you can have your street without cars if a car free feature is possible most of the people would say no so it's very important to show people that for one day you can have this and it can be a model for the future of your neighborhood so we wanted to trigger this idea so we went to municipalities first to explain our idea and wanted to collaborate with them and choose the streets together and then we went to the streets and at least a week ago to get to know people and also to inform them about the event and also ask them if they have a car please park it somewhere else nearby so the process started like this and after we organized this event the response are very positive like we want to do this again and what should we do at that point we want to give them our guide, our tool kits to trigger them to organize their own events that's our main purpose but so far it hasn't happened but maybe this could be the next step for our project there is a question there someone else so that we know thank you, this is Narnin from Stanislaw University I'm a child development specialist and psychologist I'd love to ask actually thank you for your perfect presentation but especially as a philosophical approach children find their selves in the eyes of their mothers or in the others so maybe my question can be about product design or urban design children how do they find their self to the design in Turkey so parts also has a prototype and not with their confidence especially I want to make a comparison between Turkey and other countries maybe Netherlands or other cities how do they find their self to the design or the plan or do they have your perceptions my question actually and if I look from a certain perspective I would call the children the clients they are the easiest clients there are because they are not being withheld as we are so I had the easiest job in the world whatever I do they like it it's always the others problems, the constraints etc and I think that as soon as all parents leave the space and you put the children there you leave them there they will make sure they have a good time also in Turkey that's universal that's what I think I wish that the grown-ups could start that is why I also showed that image we try to get rid of all conditions that make things impossible all constraints all parties in the beginning let's enter the design first naive and then we see how we achieve something I like the question but the answer is also simple for my perspective so yes I heard in your presentations two things that are a bit opposite at one side there's the examples of doing like temporary things pop-ups or cheap and easy to make and replace and it made me think about if you in Istanbul if you're talking about guidelines, if you're thinking about maybe giving more guidance that these processes are maybe encouraged but also a bit optimized because I think problem might be in temporary cheap things that they might just miss the effects or be not used to its high potential and that they then also could use designers to accompany that process and then maybe make a kind of hybrid thing between okay it's not a manual but it might be something that is a bit more systematized and I wanted to also ask your both opinions about that because it's also going again between participation and leadership from a designer, a single designer our events can be can facilitate participation of residents for permanent design solutions so I think that's the first step a bit further yes we need to work with decision makers to sustain this effect and also to make it more accessible for everybody that's what I think I have a slightly different approach there's nothing wrong with events but the events are actually meant to cause something and then we come to the question where should the money be coming from but there's a small amount of money already to do these kind of events and I strongly believe that you don't need much to do something we did projects in Amsterdam where we had two times 1,500 euros and they're still up I have to say there was lots of man hours involved for people that wanted to be part of that that's where the problem is but you don't need fancy playgrounds or fancy things I strongly believe in that you start with the event hopefully there's a spark that is ignited and brings together people that want to take over and then the professional designer his job is actually the middle man see how with the limited amount that we have can build something that might be kept up for a longer period one year three years, five years or maybe there's another spark coming from that and so things can grow but money we don't actually have that money without money you have to go search for reuse materials there's also go to industries and that's another but I don't assume mention that actually there was at least one street that became permanently closed two of them are now pedestrian so this is not temporary anymore this is already permanent because the word guidance is much more important than guidelines actually because when you say guidelines it sounds like a more technical term you know it's like the urban designers or architects but when it comes to the guidelines so it is for everyone who are interested in the subject I mean the designers anyone in the field and I just want to ask a small question maybe just following this because I think guidance and also experience sharing is very very important in our field because ours is a different experience and you as a designer have a different perspective so I was just wondering if you just worked with designers while closing this street and maybe Erger if you design something for a non-profit organization how was the balance first of all you need to know that what I'm working for is defining what I'm asking as a designer they find that very important because if you work for a non-profit organization you need to know that I did a small project in Amsterdam where there was hardly any money and they invited a designer and of course there was a lot of rejection against that we don't want that so what I did was that we just bought this new 3D printer that we had to try out and we printed all little small blocks from M-Pellets and then we made a drawing and I had a bag full of these small printed elements I put them on the table and I said well okay go ahead design your own space in the beginning they were very enthusiastic then it started to become a conflict because everybody wanted to build something for themselves and after three days they called me and I said can you please assist me it's not always like that but of course they don't want the designer tell them how they should design something but then they realized that I could bring in my experience and they could bring in their experience and together we could create this project I think this connects to your findings but those were adults I feel like children might have been able to create their own life but they acted as children I think children are forced to do more conflict resolution like on a daily basis than most adults maybe conflict is a good thing to achieve things there's more written about that yeah but I think design itself is just facing all the challenges like your projects your possibilities your limitations that's what design is all about so I think the question of having very small space for playground than having more space for residential construction that's design so you have to find your ways out so even the budget is low and the technology is low I think there's always a solution that's what the whole process is about and indeed I think that it's very important to have this ecology the college of the temporary spaces that they have and they are like that the space which becomes finally a permanent space or is upgraded over time slowly or sometimes there's a vision of Noguchi that builds up this amazing space without no participation except for his own creative minds and then it's amazing I mean there's so many different ways and these ways they are all valid as far as we don't want to impose things to people they are all valid there's Basch who practices the Indian that I interviewed for my book and she makes these schools that are sort of like playgrounds because they have this furniture that's like mountains and like valleys rather than desks and chairs and she says that design is there to keep the grass from springing back up she feels like people bring her in and they say they want change she's bringing in the wind of change and the grass folds down but if she doesn't make a permanent intervention there it will spring back up and things will go back to the way they were before and I find that to be a very useful concept not just in schools but for all of this sort of playground work and city work that we've been talking about because design means money is spent it means like some idea has been agreed upon and there's a fixed object and people do respect objects okay we have the last question I'm a teacher actually so I want to talk as a teacher from our point of view the thing is we talk about Netherlands and examples when I was studying North TISO in New York Park there was a really high slide and children can climb up first there's no ladder and then they should climb up and then they can slide down and it was really nice for me it was really it was my first time I saw something really creative and blah blah but then I started to work and then we went to the American Park as a field trip so I want to let children to play there but the thing is as a teacher you cannot take risk and also as Turkish parents most often they don't want to let their children to play there because it's kind of dangerous for them I'm not blaming actually sometimes dangerous because these children are most spending their time in the houses not in nature or not somewhere else so they don't have so much chances to play in that areas for example when I think about opening school spec yards the thing is really nice things for playgrounds but the important part is we should appreciate these creative ideas like if somebody doesn't let you to play in that playground for example Mr. Beliz said if adults let children to play there I'm sure they will play but in Turkey we cannot let them to play that's the thing and sometimes respect is important for example my dad is a principal in a school and it's a public school and they should raise a fund to repair the football field they repair they made really nice plays area playground for backyard but then after two weeks they broke the backyard was really mass big mass and then the thing is if we use places I guess maybe we shouldn't think about playgrounds somewhere but we can think about somewhere children can easily play in the streets like I don't know I'm thinking when climbing frames stick to building apartment building I can climb there in their street but it shouldn't be playground because in Istanbul it's really difficult but there are many hills but Netherlands you can push your stroll easily in Netherlands it's really actually we are observing maybe you can talk a little bit about how things changed over time it was really long story about risk I don't know if you have seen Tim's explanation risk is actually part of playing because if you cannot learn how to deal with risk you will encounter many risks when you are grown up I do understand your situation as a teacher because then if a child comes home with a bruise or scratch you are being held responsible where actually you can learn through if you hurt yourself that you weren't capable of doing that yeah, there's nothing wrong with that it's a problem that I cannot solve from my perspective I would say still I would like to make these places where you at least can encounter that risk and try to explore that by yourself not guided by your parents I go around the world and I notice that the world is getting more secure actually practically everywhere not everywhere but in many places and we feel more insecure we start to become more protective in many many from many many different perspectives and this is actually what you are saying the parents don't feel secure it's something I don't have a solution for but also don't want to give a solution for except for that they maybe should change their mindset as well and this doesn't come overnight this is something that they need to learn I always give the example we go back to Amsterdam and Copenhagen in Denmark they have their strollers outside leaving their babies in there even being from the Netherlands we don't believe that we think that is very very risky so there is always cultural differences between many countries but maybe this audience is the one that advocates that we need to change that also in Turkey because children will love it we should change the thinking we cannot change right now sorry I'm not judging actually I'm just saying I've been listening for a long time so I'm just thinking as a teacher I really think that children should jump everywhere they should play I'm not the one afraid of taking risk but the thing is is the conditions so I'm just saying maybe we really like to listen to you and we really like the creative designs in our playground they are really boring for children I know that we can see that but there are some differences thank you and I want to thank you for amazing collaboration