 All right. You can tell that we all know each other pretty well, right? So I'm going to let each of the panelists introduce themselves. Just to give you an idea, my name is Shanta. I'm the customer service coordinator at Weber Apps here in Hamilton. And I'm one of the organizers for WordCamp Hamilton this year. Being the last session of the day, thank you all for sticking around. Thank you all for being here at WordCamp Hamilton. And we hope we will see you at the after party later on. So without further ado, let me first introduce Mike Demo from Bold Grid. Then you'll have Brian Hogg. And then you'll have Michelle Ames. And then of course Adam Warren, the one and only. So I will let them introduce themselves one by one. And then we will get to your wonderful questions. When you are asking a question, of course, please make sure I can see you. I'm nice and short. Please speak loudly enough if I hear you. I'll try and repeat the question as best as I can. And then what I might do is hand it off to one. Just because I know what these guys do, I might ask one or both or all of them to answer the question. Please feel free to direct it at one or the other if you wish. Mike, over to you. Hey, I'm Mike Demo. I go by Demo. Yes, that is my real name. I am the open source evangelist for Bold Grid. So I do a lot of community stuff and WordPress. And I also serve on the board at June 1. So I'll be back in two minutes. I'm Brian Hogg. I have several plugins for WordPress. A couple of courses teaching people how to make plugins. And a new one coming out soon. Basically all my plugins have to do events. So people have to set that up on their site. And yeah, the formal organizer of this conference. This year I've been sitting back relaxing. Watching everybody else work. Well, thanks to you that this was so easy to pull off. Oh, that's thanks to that. I'm Michelle Ames. I'm the head of customer success for Giv. It's a plugin that works really well for nonprofits to set up really amazing donations pages. And I have been part of the WordPress community for about six years now. And I'm the lead organizer for WordCamp Rochester and organizer for WordCamp Apollo. Hi, again, I'm Adam Warner. I am the open source software community manager for SiteMob, a cloud-based website security company. I also own a plugin business called Food Plugins and have been in business since 2011 and have been a longtime WordPress user, non-developer user since 2005. Okay. So now you know what these guys all do. I think we have probably less Canadian content on this panel than I think it probably is. He's gonna pull that again. I'm from Michigan. Is that close? We used to cross the Bluewater Bridge quite often. Yeah, okay. All right. We have some honorary Canadians on here. We'll let them pass. We'll let them pass. Okay. So let's open it up to the floor. Does anybody have a question that they'd like to start with? Plug-in related? Anything? Question over here, sir. Okay. So I mean, I love WordPress, but there's one thing that bugs me about it the most. So I'm gonna ask the question about that. So when you hit the update button on a page, it refreshes to the top. Does anyone know any workarounds? If you're on a really long page near the bottom of it, just scroll back down to get to where you changed a line. Now, is this on the editor itself? Yes. So the question was, when you're on the editor, and you hit the update page, and you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, down at the bottom, it automatically scrolls back up to the top. Is there any way to get around this? Anybody got this? I don't have a very specific solution, although I share your pain, because I thought of that very thing through the years. It's a real annoying part of updating a page or post. I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the new editor that's coming, Gutenberg, if you install the Gutenberg plugin, you can use the new WordPress editor that will be in core. The saved draft or the update there, I believe refreshes without going to the top of the page. Don't quote me 100% on that, but I think that's the case. Sounds like a good idea for a new player. Because there should be some way of seeing, like how you probably wouldn't want it to be the default, because personally, I don't have a cool center that long, so I want it to go to the top of the page, verify that, you know, have a link, right, to the go see the content on the front end of the site, but yeah, I could definitely see people wanting it. There's a hotkey extension that I don't think goes to the top. I don't know which one is out there, but I just found one at one point, so you can use a hotkey to quick save or a quick update. I think it keeps you where you are. You'd have to play around in the repo, but I know at one point, I had a hotkeys plugin that didn't do that, so happy hunting. Thanks for the question. Anybody else? Okay, first question's been asked. Now you can start, yeah. How are you planning on assisting your clients with the new Gutenberg update? Ooh, how are you planning on assisting your clients with the new Gutenberg update? And improve Gutenberg. Alright, who wants to go first? Alright, gentlemen. Well, both of us. We're compatible, so... Yeah, it kind of depends on, you know, what you have and if your site is going to break with any of the plugins and things. I know people that are doing the safety, you know, using the legacy bridge on that, but it's really just the next new thing. I think a lot of the fear of this is kind of unfounded, but I heard the same stuff when the inspiration plugin happened. We're doing a lot of work on the bold grid side to be friendly with Gutenberg, because we just want to extend the WordPress and not take you out of it. Like, today, we extend 10 EMC, and this is just a nice evolution of that. So I think communication is key, and I think the fear of longering that a lot of people have with Gutenberg is really unfounded, because I remember CMSs when people were like, oh, CMSs, that's going to kill my business. People editing their own content. Cats and dogs living together. What is this? So it's just the next new thing. In two years, there'll be another new thing at once for you to have. Extra points for the, for the Goal Supposter's reference. Just so we know. Yeah. I mean, I vocal against it being in court now before there's accessibility, right? Like, before you could just use a keyboard and create a post properly. But no, I definitely think it'll, you know, I don't, and in terms of, I have a plugin that's a shortcut, right? So I kind of want it to be once Gutenberg is ready and Gutenberg blocks. So I guess on my side, it would just be learning more development and getting, you know, two groups with this whole new editor and how it works. But yeah, maybe other sort of clients. That mic doesn't work at all. That mic doesn't work at all. No, it's going in. It's going in. Yeah. We'll do our best. Yeah. So we have a lot of people asking about that as well. And one of the things that we've done to give is create a whole block series called Playing with Blocks. And that shows you how our plugin works with blocks and how you can work with blocks even whether you're using a plugin or not and how Gutenberg works. It's really something to be afraid of. Actually, it's just another way of progress and making things a little bit better. I remember when they changed the way Facebook looked and everybody was up in arms and my biggest thing to say to people was, well, you know Facebook's free, well, so is WordPress. So WordPress is free. It's about the community. This is what's been growing. This is the way we've been changing things. This is the evolution of the way we do things. A lot of those are using builders already. We're using Divi and we're using Bieber Builder. We're using all those things that are doing a lot of what Gutenberg will do for us without having to use those outside things. So I think that if you play with it, you're going to actually appreciate a lot of what it can do. I've been using it a little bit and it's actually kind of fun. So I agree with everything everybody has said but a lot of lines, it's going to be painful for your clients to all of a sudden be presented with a new editor. So in my mind as a provider and as someone working with your clients, you could do a couple things. One, you could install the Gutenberg plug-in right now and tell them what it is and ask them to become familiar with it. When Gutenberg ships in WordPress Core, install the classic editor plug-in and let your clients know that that's there. And there's a lot of work being done to port the classic editor content to the Gutenberg block system. So I think it really just comes down to education and trying to ease the pain for your clients a little bit. The other thing I would add to that is especially if you're a freelancer working for an agency, we're always looking for opportunities to help our clients but also to make money. And whenever something comes along that is a requirement, we have an opportunity to educate whole classes and that's another way that we can make money and it's not always about making money but it is a way for us to extend some services and increase our bottom line as well. Engage your clients. So, you know, offer a class, maybe offer a class in your community. Do some online coursework. We have an opportunity to teach people how to use it and extend your time to their time and then honor that time by actually charging a little bit of money for it and that's not a bad thing to be able to do if you're a freelancer. Join your local WordPress meet-up. There you go. Right? See that guy in the back there? Go talk to him. Alright, next question. Yes, ma'am. So, to be compliant with the new privacy, the GDPR. The GDPR? Is there a plug-in something that will make it really smooth and simple for all the years? So, the question is, is there a plug-in that will make GDPR easy? Simple. Simple. Easy. You just have to plug-in. Okay, well, does somebody want to describe GDPR and then answer the question? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, yeah, so no plug-in will guarantee and cannot guarantee. And that was actually a bit of a thing where there were some plug-ins that were coming in and they were like, oh, just install this plug-in and your GDPR compliant? No, because it depends on what business does, right? So, yeah, there is the aspect of your site and, you know, your site's collecting and any comments and the ability for someone to be able to request hate. Can you delete the stuff I added to your site and stuff like that to this part of being compliant? But there is definitely a lot of aspects of it. A friend of mine actually wrote a print, it's pretty likely, because GDPR is quite likely, but it's like GDPR in plain English. And if you search for that, I mean, that gives you kind of some more info and some detail you can dig into, but, I mean, to guarantee it, so it's basically up to any privacy policy which I've ever seen, and then also, yeah, getting legal advice to make again on why you're in your business. And this, again, is, I think, one of those fear-mongering things. GDPR is just the next thing. First of all, none of us are attorneys. So, we're not out there. But, yeah, there's no attorney. Everyone's looking for the simple solution of things. But this is akin to the U.S., the United States Department of Justice mandated that they follow accessibility standards if you have a physical location. And there's been lawsuits in millions of dollars that companies have paid to the websites not being accessible. But do you see everyone, all the, you know, how many sites in the U.S. are accessible? Mostly not many. So, this is going to be one of those things. I actually saw a keynote by Edward Snowden. He was talking about GDPR by satellite. At CloudFresh, he's like, you know, there's going to be a rash of lawsuits and things. But the whole point of this is to push best practices for everybody in one direction. Yeah, will there be those stories of the small business who goes out of business because of GDPR lawsuits? Sure. But it's trying to get everyone in the same headspace. And the fact it took this act to get everyone to move in this direction kind of telling to, you know, how important to take privacy overall. So, do your research. Do not trust the gurus online. You know, and don't just trust it's only one thing to fix all our problems. But also, don't stay awake on it. If you do invest practices, you most likely would be fine. But again, that would be great. So, to speak to your question about how to make your site GDPR compliant, the latest version of WordPress WordPress 4.9.6 comes with some built-in GDPR privacy tools. If you go to the tools in the WP admin, you will see a privacy link. And there, there's some information about the GDPR and basically what the GDPR means, or what you would have to do at a bare minimum, is basically have a privacy policy on your site and make sure that you are detailing not just the information that you collect, but if you're using MailChimp or some other email marketing platform. If you're using WooCommerce, if you're using any other third party Google Analytics, all of that needs to be specified into a privacy policy. But as long as you're being transparent with the information that you may or may not be collecting when you visit this site, then you're compliant. And it's also a bit of a wild west, because the day that GDPR went into effect, there was $8 billion in lawsuits filed. And it was to Facebook and other places like that. So again, with Mike's mention of what did you mention? The accessibility laws in the US it's kind of going to be the same thing, right? It's not going to affect most of us. It's more to guide a best practice and maybe make some examples out of people. That's some of the other tools that are associated with creating that privacy policy, right? Is that there's other tools built into a WordPress corner, that 4.9.6 that allows somebody to request that their information be deleted from their site, or to be shown what information about them has been collected on your site. So if you enact those things on your site, somebody sends you a request you can very simply use those tools to do those processes and WordPress has built that right into the new core. So if you haven't updated to 4.9.6 yet, first run a backup and then update that. Does that help? Yes, a lot. Especially knowing that the admin is within the admin. That's built into WordPress somewhere. That's nice because as soon as you update to 4.9.6 the first time you log into your dashboard you get a little pop-up that says you should go do these things right now. Next question from the floor. Alright, I'm going to throw one out there. I had a feeling you might. Without using your own plugins ladies and gentlemen name your favorite plugin. And why? Without naming your own or another member of the panel. Nope, not going to happen. So give us your favorite plugin and why without mentioning your own or another member of the panel. It doesn't matter for whatever reason and why. A beaver builder for me. I know HTML and I have been building sites. I met them before you. I know HTML, I know all these things. I like to be able to update the copy from the front end of the site and see exactly how it's going to look and very quickly make some changes without having to drop it together or being filed or anything else. Yeah, this has been a huge fan saver and nice thing about it. I couldn't mention yours either. That's true. I didn't qualify. I didn't qualify. Alright. What do you have, gentlemen? He's trying to think of whoever Brian's from. Yeah, I was going through all the competitors. Challenge accepted. A Cuba backup is probably my favorite. Two reasons. Most of my favorite plugins are cross-platform. If it only works on one CMS, I tend not to use it, except for, you know, bold grid, which, you know, that might change in the future. Because I like to be able to keep my workflow using WordPress, Drupal, Drupal, Magenta or anything. Cuba backup is cool though because you can create backups, automates, send them off-site, all that normal stuff. You've got PHP and it restores all the files, all the databases, anything on any WordPress-capable server. So you don't have to install anything or do any weird, like, Jupyter code and executor packages. And it's just super easy to, like, drop it, drop in two files and you can restore any site. It changes the domains and all the paths for you automatically. And Cuba backup is rock solid. And a lot of those default that package, so I thought I'd ask this for example, and then I'll deploy it right in there. So Cuba backup, which works on multiple platforms, I think it's pretty rock solid. And it's my go-to backup tool. How do you spell it? It's A-K-E-E-B-A. A-K-E-E-B-A. E-E-E-E-A. Cuba. Okay. Okay, we're going to move to the answer for any answer. To color reforms. Because color... That's another repository. And they... You can set up their forms in multiple columns, which I love to be able to do that. You can rearrange things that has a lot of the same functionality that you find in your other form builders. There's also the add-on model so you can connect to Stripe, you connect to PayPal, other things like that. And the functionality within it is phenomenal. I had to build a client site that had a calculator built in and all the different fields had to build off one another and show a difference at the bottom between different ways that numbers played in. And I couldn't find a way to solve it. Somebody said, hey, you tried this new color reforms. It's about three years ago. And it did exactly what I needed it to right on the box of the free model and I was in love from that point on. And they just keep getting better. So color reforms. Yeah. So I'll have to echo the page builder once specific because I've used a lot of them. Even though I've been using WordPress since 2005, the first thing I did was try to build a theme and it was really ugly because I'm not a designer and no one wanted to use it. And then I tried to build a plugin and it broke for most other people except for me. So I depend on page builders to run our business. So you create the typical landing page where you have features and benefits and pricing tables and you want it to look nice and you want people to take those calls to action. So any of the bold grid beaver builder site origin, Divi is another one. They're all really good and ripe in. There's another plugin I use often on every install. It's called Duplicate Post. Oh, I see. And you can duplicate posts, pages, any custom post type in the ads. And what I find myself doing is working a really long time on one page that I know I'm going to be duplicating for other products. And then I simply duplicate that page and then start switching out the content in the images. But the layout stuff is already there. I think that works really nice, even though it's a post expirator. So if you have a post or a post that you need to have a sunset on, you can set it up automatically to shut down at a certain time. And I built a church website and I didn't want the Christmas Eve service to be there for days after, but I just want to make a Christmas morning and pass it to that page either. So, you know, at midnight at Christmas Eve that Christmas Eve service post goes away. You can expire it to draft, you can expire it to trash. And so I expire it to draft because guess what, Christmas Eve's coming again next year. It's actually one I suggested on I think Catherine Prezner asked in one purpose at least in the first one I wrote. That's awesome. That's a good second one. Maddie, over to you. They'll come over here. Biggest WordPress nightmare and how did you solve it? Biggest WordPress nightmare you've read my mind. Biggest WordPress nightmare? And how did you solve it? Okay, so I had to solve it three times because I got hacked. I cleaned it up, but I didn't clean it up enough. I got hacked again. And I cleaned it up, but I didn't know that when they hacked you, they made Admin. I'm not working at Montreal. I didn't sleep but 45 minutes. I woke up the next day and then crashed for about three days to to wake up and discover that it was hacked again. The biggest nightmare hacked is one of the worst nightmares that can happen, especially when they went to your own site. It's another thing when it's 21 client sites I share hosting. So if you weren't in my session earlier, maybe you were in my session earlier, you've already heard the story so I'll keep it short, but my worst WordPress experience was when the site installation get hacked, that I was earning enough revenue from where I was going to quit my day job within probably a weeks or months. And how did I solve it? I solved it by shutting down the service and refunding all my customers and then getting pretty depressed about it. But then seeing the silver lining in that now I was aware of website security best practices come from there, so that was the worst. I don't know if I'm going to call this the worst, but it's a funny story. So this was eight years ago I was at a company called SPC and we made bank websites. Hundreds of hundreds of community bank credit websites and realtors and stuff like that. We were at JumlShop and we only did Juml at that time. And there was a real estate company that needed a very specific Century 21 WordPress only plugin. So being the JumlShop that we were and not being open minded at the time instead of making a WordPress site I found a way to install WordPress as an extension inside of Juml. So it is possible. There's actually a extension out there called WordPress for Juml and also Jupil for Juml and it allows for any WordPress plugin widget to be in any Juml module position. So and it worked. It wasn't the most technically efficient site, but that got me really interested in WordPress development and then history and now I work on multiple platforms not just those two. So one that might be relatable. So there are services like ManageWP, there are other ones that allow you to update plugins across multiple sites. So instead of having to go in to each site and go to plugins and click update now and each of the plugins you can go to ManageWP and just go, sure, update everything. That totally always works all the time. And running it right before you go to bed. When you have time overseas and in Australia who are awake when you're sleeping is a terrible idea. And make sure you turn off your backup plugin before you turn off the backup. We'll have the backup fire right after you get this, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, so yes, the person is me. So it didn't totally break the site such that nobody could buy what happened was that one of the plugins I used to verify licenses needed a database upgrade. To be honest, it should have probably just kept working until I did this database upgrade. Because even when you go in, it kind of makes it sound like it's, hey, you should do this thing, but really you need to do it now. And then when I tried to run it, it didn't. So yeah, I had to roll back due to a backup to do it before. Luckily, I had a lot of new backups to restore with the review engine. So you definitely need to be wary of ones like that. In that case as well, services like that can have a thing where it looks at your home page and it's like, oh yeah, your home page looks okay. But that doesn't mean all the functionality for your website is still correct. So yeah, always visit the site in your client's site before after you do anything like that. We had a question over here and then we'll go to the back. Go ahead. I started rolling during with a food bag that was like a monthly activity calendar that they just upload as a PDF to the website. But I wanted to make it interactive so that each of the events can link to a set page that would have more information about it. But what would be like a good calendar plugin for that? Someone play my points. So for the benefit of the video, he's asking about how do we go from having a PDF event calendar to actually make it more interactive and, you know, can be recommended plugin. I don't know, Brian. So one of my plugins, event calendar newsletter integrates with about nine or ten different calendar plugins and themes. Some themes have a calendar within it. It depends. Some free ones like Events Manager will give you the ability to have recurring events. The Events Calendar by Bonner Tribe was quite good. And one of the most popular calendar plugins I think it's on the featured plugins page at the moment. So that one's a good way to start. But again, it's looking into what kind of features you need. You need recurring events. One of my plugins like Shortcode plugins if you want to list stuff somewhere else. But most calendar plugins will give you that ability to install it, add an event, add details about the event where it is, description and who's organizing it and contact information and all that stuff. And so now you can present a calendar on the front end. You can click on the events and like you said, have a separate page to see the event details, add it to their calendar and stuff like that. The Events Calendar by Bonner Tribe has a lot of features, it looks decent and it's one that I typically recommend to at least start with. Thanks. We're going to have a question. Go ahead. So I'm just wondering if you guys that let you... I have to use Bill's Beaker Builder but that allows you to build it visually on like Divi where you have to make a change and then refresh your friends. So you're just doing everything from the front end but doesn't fill your site with an aft ton of crappy HTML with like 62 classes and everything else. They're in there and they're like, I just want to preset it and just like drag it out of the box. So for the events let's see if we can fill in the stuff a little bit. So we're looking for a page builder that does it visually like not that you have to go and drop stuff in refresh them and go over here something that you can literally do almost live, I guess, visually and that has almost pretty small lips. That doesn't add a lot of extraneous codes. Short codes and stuff like that. I think it describes the crop side but yes. Beaver Builder definitely is a decent product but I think demo has an opinion. Yeah, Jonas is great. Actually Beaver Builder is really powerful. I actually don't even say that we're competitive with Beaver Builder because our stuff works with Beaver Builder. Be honest. But you can use because we have 12 different plugins. One of them is the Direct About Page Builder. No short codes. It's all visual and it's all code so there's no short. You can move it on and add content but our stuff is modular. So you can use these different pieces of us with Beaver Builder or I'd give you any of that other stuff if you want to do that depending on what you're using. I like to say where works for WordPress you can get a full five page website in under 15 minutes with content for a restaurant or like a photography site or something so that's kind of our niche but we also have blogs. We have hundreds of thousands of artificially intelligent generated blogs that you can use in our platform. So it might work for you. It's great. Check it out. If it doesn't, try Beaver. It's a great tool. It is not easy to teach Builder. Beaver's to build websites. Actually I have a follow up. Just one follow up comment with that. So I've used a lot of different page builders including all the ones mentioned but also the one by WP Bakery still add short codes. And for a long time Divi was doing that as well but I just had a conversation with the guy a few days ago and I was under the impression that Divi was still outputting short codes and extraneous tons of stuff but I'm told now that it's all valid HTML so maybe something to revisit if you like Divi. Yeah, definitely for any deep builder if an accident gets disabled or whatever you don't want your whole site to send me pretty far. So yeah, definitely test that before you go on. Short codes aren't important because you can't move the content, right? You know you've got 40 short codes or one paragraph. So no matter what you use I feel like you need to own your content. So I think short codes for page builders with Guderburg they're all going to go away anyway. So these are good movements. Those days are numbered I think. Well maybe not maybe but I would just agree. A question over here? So can you talk about solid grid and just what themes it works with and doesn't work with like do you need to have a specific theme just generally follow up to that point. I mean for bold grid itself does it work with specific themes? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so bold grid it works with we have two options. So if it's a bootstrap based theme you can use all of our tool set. If it's not a bootstrap based theme we have a translation layer that does have to stay enabled or to translate from our code to whatever your theme framework is. That's only for the obligated agent post builder that we have. Every other plugin works with any theme under the sun because that's not visual. SEO plugins are backup plugins. Bootstrap is what we're kind of based off of but if you don't have a bootstrap based theme like let's say the core 2017 theme we do have a translation layer. Next question. Sir, go ahead. I was trying to back up a website the other day and I'm fairly new to WordPress but I've been running one big website for years and with this one I was just trying to use a default export and I've made a specific directory for a static page and the whole export thing just basically crashed because it didn't understand that there was something non-WordPress in there. What do you recommend maybe is, let me talk about some backup tools, is there anyone that would be able to get around that sort of thing and be able to understand that there might be something non-WordPress in the site? So instead of going with an export, you want to know about some backup plugins that may or may not assist with such things rather than doing it on your own. Or robust. I guess we could go without the line. There's a lot out there. I'd keep a backup as a good tool, like I mentioned earlier old good backup is another option backup buddy and the list kind of goes on and there's services right like where you can pay five bucks a month and then automatically take your site offline but with all backup and the rule of three, if you don't have your site in three places, you don't have it. So don't trust your host, don't trust that, you know, you have to have your site in three places and also trust your backups. All these people are like, I back everything up and I'm back until I corrupt it. But there's a lot of good plugins out there for backup. Have you been taking notes from Brian because I know he said that to me about million times. Oh yeah, exactly. If your data doesn't exist in at least three places, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist, yeah. You have a backup. Yeah, you know there's so many different, yeah, there's a lot of different backup plugins like 2.0 Pro. We had personally WP Engine and then I also used, you know, Vault Press or JetpackPro or whatever they call themselves now which is a service you pay like 350 Canadian a month or something to have that extra backup and to kind of one click restore as well. But again, you want to test that. Oh, and ManageWP actually, I'm using their backup service as well. I think I have a fourth layer where e-commerce is one that acts up every hour because e-commerce sites can be pretty frequent. So yeah, I have at least three. So I have at least three backups programs that I use. There you go. I use backup buddy. A lot. I also use duplicator and then Uptrack Plus. Yeah, Uptrack Plus. I was just saying, WP Engine actually has a list of plugins they don't allow and there are some I can't remember exactly which one and they don't want to quote the wrong thing but some will kind of degrade your site while the backup's running. So just being conscious of that especially if you have a decent amount of traffic or even not that many traffic, you don't want to just say the crash because you're taking the backup. Yeah, just be conscious of that too. If I heard your question correctly was it that you have not any WordPress directories in there that you also wanted to make sure were backed up? I guess I was just trying to back up the WordPress directories and have it ignore the non-WordPress ones. Yeah, so many if not most of these backup solutions will allow you to include or exclude different directories that are found on the server. So if you're looking at any of the backup plugins I would look for that kind of feature set being called out specifically. Well, and because she's not on the panel I'm going to second the Updraft Plus because I know that Curie uses it incessantly. I think... Well, and that's one of the things I like about Updraft Plus so I'm going to throw that in because it can go to anything. Like, you know, BackupBuddy usually does it to a couple of different sources and it's a paid service. Updraft Plus has a free one. It's free. It'll go to one drive. It'll go to wherever the heck you want it to go. Dropbox, people drive you. Yeah, so I'll second that one just for my own... I had to throw my two cents. The other two cents, because you guys are laughing about it it's not three places it doesn't exist and if you have to prove that you can restore it it doesn't exist. That's right. Mike said test your backups. Yes, test your backups. Test your backups. I saw backups as three different that you can have it not work and tell you, or it can work and tell you, but it can also not work and not tell you. Anything else? Question over here. So, hosting-wise, VPS is it much more secure and better than shareholding or is there really... So, we're talking about hosting? Yeah. You can choose VPS and shareholding. VPS versus shareholding? Yeah. In terms of security? Yeah, it depends on the VPS. So, VPS answered virtual private server, right? So you're not actually on a private server you are virtually on your own section of the server, right? But some VPS is, right? Like, once I run or once you can spin out the services like that, Digital Ocean and whatnot. It's more secure in the sense that you aren't sharing, I guess, some of the resources with other people but also can be less secure in the sense that you're the one, typically, who has to manage some of the lower-level upgrades and security stuff that goes kind of behind the scenes of a server. So, personally, I would normally recommend you know, you can upgrade so that you have more resources if your site requires it but having like a managed WordPress hosting, right? Because then they are the ones who are doing not only the back-end server stuff but also a lot of the WordPress upgrades. So, they'll upgrade your core version, right? If there's a security patch, they'll usually find it, even with plugins like a lot of times, like they can guarantee that they'll find everything. They'll be like, hey, you have this plugin installed, you have this version, it's insecure, you need to upgrade or World do it for you otherwise you might disable your site or something for your visitors, right? So, yeah, so VPS can be more secure but it can be a lot more work as well. So, yeah, I'd stick with managed services. I'm sure Adam's going to have that. Yeah. So, just what I want to say about hosting, as I always go, you guys get asked all the time, especially as speakers, and go to a lot of camps, what's the best host? What's the best WordPress host? And it's a question that you really can't answer because everyone's needs are so different, right? So, like, there are people that really care about top-level service and they're willing to pay for a medium-managed host like a WPN gym or locally boom host, I believe, has a local managed WordPress offering and, you know, there's other ones out there as well, cloudaxis.net. Other people just care about price. They want the cheapest thing out there. So maybe an EIG option or some other host might be better for them. Some people really care about phone support. You know, I know hosts that have, you know, local U.S.-based phone support and will walk you through how to add a page and a post and spend an hour on the phone with you, but you pay for that. Sometimes, you know, security. So I don't think there's one right answer for everybody. I think a lot of people buy dedicated servers and VPSs and things because they get bad information and they don't maintain that infrastructure correctly. It can be a world of hurt. I had a client, a freelance client the other day. So I thought I'd buy a dedicated server because it's better. And I'm like, no, you're traffic. No, this is like the worst idea for you to spend $800 a month for something, a site you could live on a managed account. So really do your research and find out what company is right for you because what, you know, we could pull it. So okay, who doesn't like this host? Raise your hand. Who loves that after we raise their hand? Because people have very specific examples and I recommend start with the official, you know, WordPress sponsors, you know, sponsors of like this word camp. Some of them are hosts. Check them out. But that's what expand your search. See if you care about local or non-local, things like that, because there's no right answer for everybody with Costa. I agree. See, the other thing you do want to consider if you have a specific requirement for it to be in certain countries, that's another thing to consider, right? If your host is, say, in the U.S., you know, is my site going to, you know, get open by whatever, well, the fact that they can probably reach into Canada too. If Homeland Security wants your stuff, they will get, right? So it doesn't matter whether it's in Canada or the U.S., there's the reciprocal, but, you know, there are some websites that require that it be in a particular location. So that's another thing to consider. But yeah, I will always, you know, mirror sort of what Demo said, is go to the people that sponsor these. Some of the biggest sponsors of word camps are hosting companies. Put them to the test, please. Ask them every question that you possibly have, because they are probably going to be the ones to get your money, right? So make sure that they answer that. Ladies and gentlemen, I think we're out of time. First of all, I want to thank our panelists for sticking around for so long. Thank you very much. And the questions are so far away. Thank you guys for sticking around for all your wonderful questions.