 Hello, everyone, and welcome to Reimagine Theater, a panel series that brings artists and community leaders together to envision a new theatrical world. My name is Nebra Nelson. I'm the director of arts engagement at Seattle Rep. I'll give a physical description of myself for blind and low vision audience members. I'm a lighter skinned woman with short brown hair, a green scarf, and behind me is a black and white photo on a white wall. I would like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional land of the Coast Salish people here in Seattle, including the Duwamish people past and present, and we honor with gratitude the land itself in the Duwamish tribe. This acknowledgement of course does not take the place of real authentic relationships with Indigenous communities, but it just serves as a first step in honoring the land we're on. For more resources on how to support local Indigenous communities, please visit the land acknowledgement page on the Seattle Rep website. I deeply appreciate every one of these panelists being here to have this conversation today. We are doing these panels so that we can envision what a theater, a future for theater in equity and justice looks like, and how the arts and theater should be a part of that, and be a consistent part of community voice. So the leading questions for this discussion are, if you could wave a magic wand and build a new theater landscape, what would you create? What does theater at the heart of public life look like? And what does universal access look like and feel like? People in the Zoom audience, please think about your answers to these questions since we're going to invite you to be part of the conversation and discussion actively at the end of the panel. And in the meantime, you can react to the questions in the chat box if you are able. Now I am going to pass it to my co-facilitator, Monique Holt, and the rest of the panel to introduce themselves. Monique. Hello, my name is Monique Holt. My name sign is this. I'm she, her, hers. I have a short white hair, black frame glasses, reading glasses, with a black turtleneck, white background. You know, and I think that's about it. Now I'm going to turn it over to the next person. I think Elizabeth. Hi, I'm Elizabeth Rauston, and I go by she, her pronouns, and I am a white woman with silver hair, wearing a blue shirt with multi-colored flowers with a blank wall behind me and a green plant in the corner. Emmy. Hi, my name is Emmy. My pronouns are she, her, and I am a light-skinned woman with black hair, and I'm wearing a black t-shirt that says awesomely autistic on it, and I am sitting on a tan couch with a blank cream wall behind me. Perfect. Cassidy. My name is Cassidy Huff. I go by Cass. You can call me by she, her pronouns, and I am a light-skinned woman with brownish blonde hair. I'm wearing a gray Christmas sweater, and I have a black and white striped background behind me. Okay. Now, we would like to start with just a basic, basic question for all of you. And now with COVID, with COVID-19, what are the challenges pertaining to this? Any thoughts, any concerns, any ideas that you've come across? There's no right or wrong answer, just ideas that you can throw out there. Any of you are viewers or involved with production or service or anything like that? Or part of your community that, okay, Elizabeth? As I understand your question, you are asking what challenges the pandemic has presented to going back, to enjoying arts and culture. And if that's the question, my answer is there are many challenges and one of them is getting people comfortable going back in person. We have gotten complacent staying at home and doing everything virtually and remotely. And people are going to be nervous about going back in person for lots of reasons. Being that close to other people and not knowing if they're going to spread their germs or receive the virus. So I think that the vaccine, the way the vaccine will be played out in terms of who gets vaccinated will play a large role in people's trust in going back in person. I can see that as one of the main challenges. Right, any thoughts or any comments, any additional comments? Cassidy? Yeah, I have the mindset of an actor. So I think that the biggest challenge going back is for people with industry to realize that the whole industry has changed because of this pandemic. The entire industry is now shifted and we have to figure out ways around things. So one of the main things is a lot of people are going to be doing self-tapes now. That's going to become very normalized. I also think that virtual performances are a thing that's going to have to continue to happen because we don't know what the future is. And I think slowly but surely the industry is figuring this out. So I think there's fear from both sides. I think there's fear from audience members who really want to go back and see shows, but they're scared of being, they're scared of catching the virus. And then the actors and all of the industry people behind the scenes are also scared of going back for the kinds of reasons, but we have to adjust to a whole new world as well as a whole new industry now that this pandemic is hit. Thank you. Emmy? Yeah, I'm coming at this from an educator's perspective. I'm a K through five music teacher by day and I do see my students via Zoom like we are right now and I interact with them online via video and teaching them music. And one thing that really messes with our ability to accomplish things and make learning happen is that that digital barrier, like the literal screen that's in between us and them. And besides like the psychological level and the various mental health challenges and developmental challenges that presents, it also is simply a very big logistical challenge and it's becoming really clear that there are certain things while the rise of adaptation in technology has helped to bolster. There is a definite gap that needs to be fulfilled with the presence of in-person arts and culture, but I also believe that the way it's systemically been upheld in the past pre-pandemic cannot be sustained. It never has been sustainable. And in order for us to revive ourselves, we need to change it from the ground up. I'm gonna jump in to give space for Kameko Thomas who was having some technical issues, but it's here, yay, to introduce themselves as well. You're muted. There we go, yes. Yes, you're muted. Ah, all right, there I am. All right, good evening, everyone. Hope everyone is doing well. Hi, Elizabeth. Yes, I'm Kameko Thomas. I am a writer, speaker, kind of sort of disability advocate. I try not to jump into the lanes of people who've been doing this a little bit longer. I am a black woman living and working at the intersections of race, gender, and disability. I have on, I'm kind of bald headed today. I wear glasses and I have on a black top with flowers. Yes, and I'm very, I appreciate the invite and being here. Thank you. I'm very happy that you joined us. I mean, you made it. Okay, now going back to what we were talking about, about COVID. So far we've been talking about the fear of going back. I wanna go back to when we had to deal with virtual like FaceTime and Zoom and webinars, this whole thing. What are the positives part that you noticed that really was an advantage and what are those that will help other theaters, theater maker, producers, how to be inclusive here on out from their work? Whatever do you consider that a positive for you or them? Amy? Amy? Yeah. Well, the pandemic and the use of digital performances as a valid means of broadcasting and putting on a live show is 100% valid and doable and should be sustained for various reasons for accessibility. Looking from like the point of view of a disabled performer, it's really important to have that as an option and having something pre-taped as an act, especially if it's like a solo performance of some sort, being able to have that ready to go to submit as a part of a festival or a compilation of performances as something there to give as like an audition as well. Having a digital portfolio in the form of these live performances put on the past I think would be excellent for documentation and scoping out new talent and seeking out the kinds of talent you're looking for. Yes, definitely, yes, good. Anybody else wanna add to Amy's comments? Elizabeth? That is a great question. I've been thinking a lot about this and I think even though there's been a lot of trauma that come out of the pandemic, I feel like there's also been opportunities that have presented themselves that may not have done so, had the pandemic not happened. For example, this digital world that we're living in right now has invited new audiences in to experience a wide range of arts and culture. So that's a big positive right there. And artists are by nature creative and so this has forced them to think on their toes and be creative and come up with new ways of storytelling and keeping others, all of us connected to one another because art is a really valuable way of storytelling and this is the thing that's going to help us out of this traumatic experience because it really helps to hear. So I see that the positive aspect of art and also I think theaters are realizing they can't go back to business as the way it was before. They have to do things differently because there are new audiences, there's statistically there are more elderly people than ever before and these elderly people are going to have more disabilities. So they can't go back to business as usual so they have to expand the business model to include a variety of different audiences and because so much of the economy has been hard hit, there's an opportunity to reach people who may not have otherwise afforded to go to theater. Yes, that's absolutely true. Any one of you want to add any comments? Yes, I think... Okay, Kamiko. Oh, sorry. I think the interesting thing about this, I think a really recent example of this and I know this is more in the film side but I think it still speaks to the point. We were all, and at least I know I was, was just so looking forward to the Wonder Woman sequel that was gonna come out this summer, right? And then of course that was before COVID and initially was, you know, they said, okay, well, we'll push it to August and then August became October, then became, now it's going to be Christmas day but it's a theatrical release and you can stream it through HBO Max if you have it or if you want to get it. So I think that the one hand is... And I think it's probably something that technology was missing before because as Elizabeth and others have stated, not everyone is going to be able to physically attend certain events but that doesn't mean they don't want to go. And just with the fact that the studios have finally figured out, look, if we don't make it so that people feel comfortable engaging with our content, then they're not going to do it. And then that ends up being a loss of revenue yet at the same time. And I'm glad that people are finally starting to figure that out yet at the same time. And this is just a personal thing for me. I feel that when we're talking about digital accessibility especially in the theater world, I want us to collectively get away from just doing it through Facebook Live or even Instagram Live. Because older members of the population aren't necessarily as comfortable with social media as younger members are going to be. So it might be a little intimidating to have to go through that kind of portal in order to gain access. So I feel that theater companies are going to look at accessibility, maybe just say, hey, there's a place where you can just come to our website and it's streaming from our website instead of someone having to get a Facebook account just so they can watch a play or appreciate a ballet performance. I think that is something, because I know there have been, because I personally am not the biggest fan of Facebook. I even deleted my account. So for me, I feel like there are certain things that I probably would engage in more and participate in more and I would watch more things if it weren't for having to, when I have to get another Facebook account so I can watch this and it's like, well, if that's what it takes, I'm not going to do it. And you're speaking to someone that is comfortable enough with the technology to where that's not the barrier, but what about others? So I think that's definitely something that needs to be taken into consideration. Okay, just one second, we have an interpreter switch here. Okay, great. That's very interesting for me. I have a deaf family. I went to go visit my mom. My mom is not tech savvy and one positive thing about getting the family together has been this. I think that we've become closer. There's more love for the arts. I show mom how to enter the website, how to click on the link. And so it's like, wow, I can't believe it. Wow, I can watch shows online and I don't have to go live. So my mom actually has to use a walker. So it's been quite of a hassle to travel. So she's like, wow, I can be in my PJs and just watch whatever show I want. This is great. It's a lovely moment for mom and I, mother, daughter moment there to be able to enjoy that and watch a show. One challenge I noticed was working with a deafblind population where now with the virtual platform that we have, it's kind of a barrier, right? It's not very accessible towards them because it's virtual. So now it's kind of like an interesting problem with the deafblind population where we actually talked about maybe having a bubble. Are you familiar with the bubble? Anyone? No? No. People nodding heads, no? Okay. Basically what happens is you have to make sure that everyone is obviously healthy. They have to take a COVID test. They'll have to be negative. And then you go into a space where everything is clean and safe. We perform, we do videos, we actually do tactile. And that's how we help the deafblind continue with their work, if that makes sense. So we call it actually working in the bubble. Some universities are actually doing that in their classes. For that population, obviously we have to make sure no one gets sick, everything's healthy, everything's safe. Sterilized and cleaned. And so we set up a bubble, right? So that's another thing that we can do with that population as well. I'm curious what other things you notice as far as virtual, any other obstacles, any other thoughts? I think sometimes people go overboard with it. Yeah, I'll go. So I definitely see, and I don't know if it's more prevalent to me now or if it stands out to me more than it did in the actual physical theater space, but online I'm noticing that a lot more disability advocates like myself have to advocate for captions, for Zoom. Have to advocate for things like ASL interpreters. Have to, these things aren't thought about. So at some theater shows there are ASL interpreters and that's fantastic, but then you get online and nobody's there interpreting. And so somebody who's deaf or hard of hearing is sitting there like, what is, what's going on? Like myself, I need captions to function on a daily basis and I had to bring that up to my performing arts conservatory that I need captioned videos and I need Zoom to be captioned. And just things that everyday people, able-bodied people don't think about. Things that they need to start thinking about in order to accommodate and cater to the entire audience that you're trying to serve. Absolutely. Cass, so then how do you get that information out there and say you need to provide captioning? What suggestions do you offer to them? Yeah, so usually I'll go to whoever's in charge. So I'll go to my disability counselor if it's school or if I'm working in an environment, I just, excuse me, I just worked for another theater company and they were doing a Broadway accessible class that catered to people with disabilities of all ages. And they didn't have an ASL interpreter or captions when I showed up. And so I sat through one class and then at the end I stayed on for a little bit when my boss was asking me how things went, if I think I would be a good fit. And I was like, yeah, so one thing, there's no captions and there's no ASL interpreter. And people don't specify how they look when at the very beginning of the class. And so what about people who are blinds? Like they won't be able to know what you look like, they can hear your voice, but they won't have any idea of an image in their head. So how do we fix this? And a lot of times people are very helpful and they recognize their mistakes almost immediately and they try and fix them or they tell me, okay, here's what we're gonna do in order to fix them and then eventually they get fixed. But it does take standing up for yourself or for others in some cases. And unfortunately that's the kind of reality that disabled people have to live in every day. I mean, I find myself advocating for basic things every single day, whether virtually or physically. Okay, great. Thank you, Cass. Elizabeth? Cassidy, thank you for bringing that up. I am speaking from a public health perspective. And I know that being involved in the arts and being able to participate, whether I'm a patron or an actor or whatnot, gives me joy and it allows me to be connected to other people. So that is the big benefit. But if it's not accessible, then you're missing out on the health and well-being of a large part of the population. And so you ask, well, how do you get captains? Well, I would say that from the standpoint of accessibility, do not wait until someone asks you. Just provide it. Just put it into your structure of your organization. And that way it will just be there and you just have the interpreter and they will be there. And you put in your marketing materials that people can request accommodations. And if no one requests by a certain time, then maybe you don't have certain accommodations, which is fine. But you have to really state upfront that you are going to provide these services. And I once was talking with someone who ran a film festival. And I was asking her, well, it would be great if the film festival could have captains or advertise which films were captured because I have to spend a lot of time figuring out which films I can go to that have captains. But if they market it better, then that would be good. And also when they have these grand openings, I'd love to be able to go, but they don't provide captains or they don't provide interpreters. And when I asked her about that, she said, well, nobody's ever asked. And I said, well, people are not going to ask because they see that you are inaccessible. So they're not going to come. They're not going to think that a place is welcoming and inclusive. So they're not even going to bother to go to the trouble and ask sometimes. But if it's baked in and you make it so, people will come. They will come in droves. Thank you. Thank you for that. Tamiko, you had your hand up. I'm sorry to cut you off. Go ahead. I think too, I've noticed that I feel that a lot of the content providers could do more to in terms of accessibility, I remember sending a link to a presentation I had done to, I believe I sent it to you, Elizabeth. And it didn't have captains and I felt awful. And I remember reaching out to Vimeo because that's who I do my hosting, my video hosting through. And I said, look, I have, I know people that require this accommodation. And the best solution they have for me at the time was to, they sent me to a caption providing service that was extremely expensive. Like it was very cost prohibitive. So it was like, look, I'm a small business and that one video would have cost me about $200 to have captions. And I said, look, it's absolute, I did send them, I didn't hear anything back, but I said, it's absolutely ridiculous for you to not have that be as simple as clicking on a button and saying, do you want to have captions when not only are people have these needs and people are paying for, if you have a plus account or whatever, like why wouldn't that even be included in the account? And they were just like, well, we apologize, this is pretty much the best that we can do for right now. And I was like, well, that's unacceptable because people, I mean, look, just because you can't hear, it doesn't always mean you can't see. So if people are looking and they can't hear, then it's just like you were intentionally leaving out an entire population because for whatever reason you've decided it's too expensive to just do that. And from my understanding, like YouTube does it, I hate YouTube though, it's very clunky. But I mean, like it should just be a baked in option instead of let's pass that cost off to someone else because we don't want to be bothered with it. I mean, like you have to think ultimately what that is communicating to people who have difficulty hearing. It's like, it's basically saying that you don't matter. And so much so that we want to, like we're going to pass this cost off on but when it's our responsibility, I think it's their responsibility to provide that. That's my two cents. Yeah, absolutely. Just another thought as well, I just experienced. We had a fundraising event and they were showing a PowerPoint presentation and a video as well, but it was not captioned. So I kind of sat there and I noticed that they were using Microsoft. And Microsoft actually has a captioning feature if you speak into the microphone. But obviously it has to be turned on, right? So they turned it on and I was like, okay, something to think about. I mean, it's available. And then also, I don't know if you know, Rev, R-E-V, where you can actually add captioning to Zoom. I'm not familiar with it, but a deaf friend of mine who actually works a lot with Zoom and does the Zoom meetings said, obviously that person is hearing that deaf, but they said you can actually add Rev and they said it's free. Anyway, just food for thought, maybe something that you can check on your own or maybe it's something that you can add, obviously cost. I mean, you know, if it's too much and that's obviously that impossible to do. But anyway, that's another solution that we can actually explore. Other thoughts, other suggestions are ready for the next question. What do you think? Whatever you want. Nabra, did you have something? Okay, great. Okay, now, considering Zoom and the virtual platform, I noticed what I was working and directing a show on Zoom. There's some true challenges, internet connection. If you don't have a strong Wi-Fi or not a strong internet, it's a real problem. Accessibility is hard in that sense, the lighting, right? Yeah, everybody, you know what I'm talking about, right? I see the heads nodding, you've all experienced that. How do we make sure that this doesn't happen? Often people, what they do is they prerecord something. And that sometimes is a good solution if you wanna set something up, especially performance. But I'm curious, Emmy, in the classroom, how does that work for you? So, yeah, in terms of like Wi-Fi, instability and technological inequity, I prepare an internet connection I prepare an asynchronous lesson, so prerecording a video lesson beforehand for each thing. I plan for my classes to, so that those who cannot make the live classes during the school day to access after school is over. And I also do my best to make that live captioned and also auto-translatable to as many different languages as possible. And I personally prefer it that way, having like a scripted lesson. I find that the stuff that's pre-planned out, prerecorded and kind of done at my pace gets the lesson accomplished more seamlessly. Although I do not get the feedback of direct contact with the student, so that it does not, I guess seamlessness of a lesson does not guarantee like learning of a student. So those are false correlations. But in terms of being able to access information and access, accessing education from the standpoint of not being able to do it at the same time as everybody else who might have the privilege of having a strong Wi-Fi access, it is super important to me at least to have a prerecorded bits whenever possible. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually, right? Any other thoughts, comments before we go on to a different question? Okay, so now if we're dreaming about a perfect world, if we had to continue with this Zoom or virtual style, in the perfect world, what's your wish? What would change? What would improve? What would you tell people to do? Cass, Kamiko? I can go. So I, in a perfect world, I would wish that, I mean, when you're looking at the theater industry, 90, I would say 99% of it is run by able-bodied people. And so, I think that's a pretty good estimation. And so I wish that they would take into account people with disabilities so that, and touching on what Elizabeth was saying, I wish that we didn't have to ask, we didn't have to advocate for ourselves so much. I wish that people would just get ASL interpreters or caption their videos and Zoom calls without even a second thought. And if nobody on that Zoom call or nobody watching that video needs that, fantastic. It doesn't need to be done after you've checked with every single person. But it would still be nice to get on a Zoom call with brand new people that I've never met before and have it captioned. It would still be nice to watch a prerecorded video from one of my theater classes and have it captioned without me having to ask previously. So I think those kinds of things, as well as accessibility in general, when we do go back to in-person theater, would just be really nice. Not leaving disabled people to fend for themselves when looking for movies that are captioned or theater productions that will or won't have loops for hearing aids or have ASL interpreters that travel and tour with the cast. I wish that that wasn't so hard to figure out, like there needs to be some more advertising around this is sensory friendly or this is we accommodated in this way or right on the website or on whatever they're using to amplify their platformer or get their show out there. There needs to be some kind of message so that we as disabled people don't feel like we constantly have to be asking for things and then we feel ignored because when we don't have our accommodations met, we do feel like we don't matter, at least I do. So it's difficult. And the other thing I think I would change is just in general, not just casting disabled actors for disabled roles. I want to be able to sit down one day and have a script placed in front of me where it doesn't say disabled in the character description. That's one of my dreams because then you know that it doesn't matter. And then when you get on set or get on stage, whatever your accommodations were already thought about and done and they have all of your accommodations ready for you and or somebody will come up to you and be like, hey, what else can we do for you? What else do you need kind of thing? So it's not just you walk in the room and you feel like you're already out of place immediately because there's nothing. You don't feel like you fit in at all. Yeah, so those are just a few of the things that I would change in a part or what happened in a perfect world for me at least. Beautiful comment. I think you're right. It's very possible. And that's why we do support University of North Carolina. Their design is called Universal Design Seven Principles and that has already been incorporated. It's intersectional design and it's not inclusional for one person, but for everyone. And that should be considered for everybody and it should not just get rid of just a certain population, but we should hear you. Okay, now, Elizabeth. Following on what Kathy and Monique said, I agree completely. And if I had to change anything, the one thing that come to my mind is the ability to be spontaneous. And that means, you know, it's a Friday night and they came, oh, I want to go somewhere. I look in the paper and I see that there's a theater show and they still have tickets. They have to be captured, captain, or they have audio description for line or low vision patrons. So being able to just stop in anywhere and see a show or movie and everything is there for whatever disability you have, that accommodation is already there. Because right now we have to do a lot of planning and a lot of advocating to make sure that we get what we need. And I would also love to see the marketing and the materials really clearly outlined as to what is accessible. And that goes for looking at the website. And the website, there's a clear description of the accessibility offerings. There is an accessibility statement that shows me that they thought through what that organization needs to do in order to be accessible to all people with all abilities. And also arts and culture needs to connect more with the audience and do a better job of community engagement. So including marginalized populations in the planning process. So if a play or a musical or an art exhibit is starting to be planned, then coming through that, through the lens of a person who might not be able to see, a person who might have sensory processing issues, a person who can see very well. Thinking through all those elements before you push it out to the public would be ideal. I'll stop there because I could go for a while but I don't know if I can make a one to say something. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And Emmy, and then Kamiko. Okay, so Emmy first. All right, so, oh man. There is a lot to unpack. So I guess my first thing is, there's a plethora of different things considered disability in a disabled community of disabled people who's not a monolith. So there are, you can't just say, oh, can you have this caption? Can I have a ASL interpreter and then the said and done? Because that's not the T. I would, in my perfect world, I would make sure each theater company hires a disabled consultant, give them professional pay, have those people who have the networks and the access to the community like those who the theater companies are trying to serve and have that work done under the leadership of somebody who knows that experience. Because I think it's unreasonable to ask able-bodied people to read the minds and step into the bodies of people they will never live the experience of. And even like the greatest method acting will never replace that. So, yeah, higher disabled consultants, this would also apply for like any other marginalized community, whether for LGBTQ, for black and indigenous, for underserved the houseless populations. So wherever there is lack of representation, there should be a concerted effort to make meaningful connections with somebody in that community and make it meaningful by compensating them. Because this is not labor that should be free. And... That's, yes. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the big thing. Okay, wow, thank you, Emmy. Kamiko. You know, we speak about accessibility for people with disabilities. And I know that invisible disability definitely includes deaf and people who have a little bit more difficulty hearing than average. I wonder even with that, I wonder how to accommodate someone just using me as an example because I am a disabled veteran. I have post-traumatic stress disorder with secondary generalized anxiety disorder. And I have OCD. And I also have ADHD. So it's like, okay, you know, yeah, like I've got all the letters, it seems, right? Like just like the whole letter, the whole alphabet soup, right? So how, and how would, how would accessibility look like for someone like me? Like I don't have the issue with hearing, but I still have psychiatric disabilities that need to be taken into consideration because if I could, like a real quick example, like for me, I kind of get them, I get real, real nervous if people are behind me for too long and it triggers my fight or flight response. And then the next thing, you know, I'm focused more on the movement behind me and what do I need to do to make myself feel safe? And then that turns this beautiful experience of going to the theater, of watching the dance theater of Harlem. I think that was the last dance performance I saw. It turns that into, I miss the entire performance because I was too busy worried about like all of the movement and just feeling kind of like I need to get out. So I know that there, I'm pretty sure, I'm confident that there's a way to get this done. It's just, I've run into so many people who have just gotten so impatient with me because the assumption is, if you look at me and you see the way I interact and you listen to the way I speak about certain things and the assumption of course is I'm either exaggerating the difficulties that I say I'm having or you're thinking that it's really not that bad because I can quote unquote function, but that perception of functionality is still based on an ableist perspective, right? So I wonder what does accessibility, what could it possibly look like for people like me? Because again, and then the other marginalized community as a black woman, I've gone to, I've been in venues where I've had Caucasians look at me like I am intruding or like I don't belong there or I'm magically not supposed to know what art is. I'm not supposed to know what ballet is or I'm not supposed to have the same level of appreciation for it that others do and it makes me not want to be in the space. So I do wonder, like I said, I have a number of intersectionalities here. So what would accommodations look like in that space for people like me that we're not dealing with the need for ASL, but we are still dealing with a disability that you can't see and it still needs to be taken into consideration. Well, thank you, Kamiko. I do see Emi has her hand raised as well. Kamiko, I'm so glad that you brought that up and I have a lot of things to say about it actually. So I also struggle with multiple invisible disabilities including autism, ADHD, several mental illnesses and for me, like in my perfect world, accommodation to those things would look like access to the show program beforehand. Like I cannot process new information very well. I cannot watch premieres of brand new shows and then remember all the details because that's just too much information for me to process. I would love a list of content topics and potential trigger warnings from the show, whether it's like really like trivial seeming things, like just list them all because you never know. Yeah, because PTSD is complex, sensory triggers are really complex and they can be activated by something that other people might not instantly recognize. So like sound, sensory, image, discussion topics and if for any reason you need to step away from the space, like I've had to step away from a space because of like meltdowns. I've had to like go out into the lobby and it made me really sad because I would miss part of the performance. And I think this is possible and totally reasonable. Have a simulcast show in the lobby for those who need to be in the lobby during part of the performance. People who cannot handle being in the room where it happens, like that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be experiencing the art. And along that line, like having videotape performances, movie style, high production, Allah Hamilton, the film, like that should be accessible to those who can't even get out of their house that evening. Like there are many at night like where I had made plans to go see a show but then like five minutes before I'm supposed to leave, I just can't, you know, you just can't. And having access to like an online version of that, like that at least like supports the show, your money doesn't go to waste. Oh, and having social stories leading up to the performance. So I'm a member of the parachute players which is a disabled friendly, young child friendly acting theater company. And the concept of social stories like came up when I performed in their debut show. And basically what that is, is it's like a series of short videos with images that explain exactly what's going to happen. Like from the moment you like park in the parking lot to when you step into the lobby, this is who's gonna greet you. This is what they look like. This is who the cast is going to be. This is what their face looks like. This is their costume and they're gonna hand you something or we're gonna sing a song and they're gonna give you a little list of things that we're going to do in this show and we'll get a chance to case something. You'll get a chance to draw something. And every single thing is itemized and listed out. And it hadn't even occurred to me that how reassuring that was. But like I almost cried with like joy when I found out that this was a possibility. So like dream big. If you can think it, ask for it is what I've learned from that experience. And I know as like members of marginalized identities, it feels really burdensome to try and even advocate because of the fear of like being like perceived as too much. And I feel for you so much. And we're tired, aren't we? We're just so tired. Dosted, I am 100% there with you. Like I actually had a client like boot me out of the door because I hit a depression spiral and the thing that was really painful to me about that was number one, like up until that point, everything was fine. But number two, these were people that knew about my disabilities. So then for me to, and it's always a difficult thing. I mean, the vulnerability. I mean, I think that's the thing that people really don't understand. It's like the vulnerability that comes from saying, hey, I hate to do this to you because you act like I'm doing something to you by saying this, but I have specific needs and here's what they are based on my disabilities. And even though I know the ADA legally protects me and gives me the right to ask for these accommodations, can I tell you how many times I ask? None, because I don't like the way it makes me feel. I don't like the way people look at me and start to behave with me once that conversation comes into play. And then when we reveal it, just for people to say, okay, it's fine until it becomes a problem for us. Then all of a sudden it's, okay, well, well, we know that you're doing these things to take care of yourself and I was never once asked, okay, well, do we need to cut down on the number of Zoom meetings we have like, is there a way for you to still get the work done that takes the emotional and psychological load off of you? I was never asked that, it was, well, we texted you once and we called you once and since you didn't answer, even though we knew why you didn't answer, like we don't wanna be bothered and then I just got booted out of the door. It was the coolest thing I think I had experienced this year and we're in the midst of a pandemic. So I get it, it's painful and it hurts and every time it happens, I kinda lose my faith in humanity a little bit. So I 100% get exactly where you're coming from. That's a struggle and a conflict that I have every day. So I am with you 100%. I just really wanted you to know. Thank you. Thank you for letting me take up space for a moment there. I got really excited. Thank you for sharing. I think everybody deserves to hear about this. Yes. Absolutely. Yes, provided, thank you for, we do, it's important for us to have empathy and to show a good attitude and to give the feeling of being in a safe space. And that's where we need in this time of this pandemic, which is awful. I do agree. Thank you for sharing. Elizabeth. Thank you so much, Amy and Kamiko for bringing those issues up. And that brings me to the point that the spaces in which art occurs had to change. So that means that they have to be safe spaces for people of all kinds of abilities to be able to go and do what they need to do to take care of themselves. So whether that is, you know, a quiet calming room of the theater, whether it is, I mean, there's ways to be creative about this. But the bottom line is that all the employees of that organization have to understand and be open that there may be a patron who has needs and that they need to be an advocate for that patron. Even if they themselves don't understand what's going on, they need to be able to offer that patron a safe space for that patron. So I've had people tell me that they have chronic pain, for example, and they come in and they see this long line of people waiting to get their tickets and they cannot stand in line for that long and there's no way to sit down for that long and there's no way to sit, for example. So having a place for them to sit with a card that they can take to get out of line and then get back in line or something like that. But really changing the way the space is used will be really important as we go back. And also those relationships with disability organizations will be really important because that's how you learn about all the different abilities and what people might need. So they are your partners in this and the patrons are also your partners in this. So it's not like you have to do this all on your own. I mean, we have a community of people here who want to help and want to support the theaters in welcoming these patrons. The theaters may not know how. And so really doing that community engagement is key. Now in terms of planning, I wanted to say that the first thing on people's minds might be the budget. Well, we can't afford that. We can't afford to buy a sofa for someone to sit down or we can't afford this or that. But really switching that deficit mindset into an opportunity mindset and think about what do we need to put in the budget? Every year to make this happen because once you put it in the budget it's going to take care of itself and it pays for itself in the end because you will get more and more people who see that you are accessible and they'll come back and they support you over and over again. And I can't stress this enough because if this is not baked into the budget, if there's not a line item for accessibility in your budget it's not going to happen. So it has to be really an intentional process of including all of these things that we're thinking about. Okay, great. I'm trying to look at the time. Nabra, how are we doing on time? We're good on time. We will have like 10, 15 minutes to continue the conversation and then after that we'll invite comments and questions from the audience and do a little switchover but you can ask more questions if you'd like. One of the things that I remember when I was living in Seattle, I don't live in Seattle anymore folks but I was trying to set up a town hall with all the Seattle theater companies. To discuss one thing, an easy place to actually get together. Fifth Avenue was willing to actually host but it never happened. But maybe that's something that we can actually go back to and assess and look for and be able to go back to quote unquote physical theater again if we ever do and how to do it, I'm not sure but that's something that maybe we can actually explore and have this kind of conversation with the whole group, with the theater companies and people showing up. It's okay, that's what we need to do. What can we do? What can we do to make sure that they can hear from us? So willing to lead, the focus groups, check to see what services are provided, what accessibility needs to be provided, a disability consultant maybe. I don't know, maybe that's something that we can be more proactive and educate them. Again, that's something that, I think that's the reason we need this kind of forum and platform as well because now is the perfect opportunity. People aren't leaving, they're staying home, they're working from home. Now's the opportunity to have that discussion, have a Zoom meeting. Again, I'm just wondering from the artist perspective, from the audience perspective as well, from the administrative perspective as well. So that's something that we need to work together. Comments, obviously, what do you think is a valid comment? Obviously you know you're valid, you are human beings. You deserve access to art. Art is for everyone. Elizabeth? I just wanna say that working as part of the Seattle Cultural Accessibility Consortium, this is one thing that we're trying to help with. We're trying to sort of be a resource for the arts community in terms of finding those resources. And having, you know, in 2021, we're planning a series of community connections where we have arts organizations, community members and people with disabilities, anyone who would like to join to come to these connection meetings and brainstorm with their counterparts, different themes around accessibility. And so I think we need to provide more of a forum for people to come and discuss those things. And the workshop that we do are hopefully going to stimulate ideas about accessibility planning and getting ready for the reopening. So I'll type in the website in the chat for those who are interested. Excellent. Okay, so how are you promoting this for the people who aren't part of the consortium? How do you promote that? Well, anyone who's listening can look up the Seattle Cultural Accessibility Consortium and check out our website to double check Elizabeth's bio to make sure that you get the correct organization. Yes, you asked how I was promoting. Well, I sent out lots of e-newsletters and posted on Facebook about different events that we are hosting. So you can feel free to sign up to get on our newsletter to be a prize of what's happening. Awesome. Awesome, great. Great, thank you so much. Kamiko. Oh, no, I was just, no, I was really just agreeing with, because I get the newsletters and first off, I'm glad that someone understands that accessibility for people with disabilities is a crucial part of the arts. I remember, I think it was, might have been a year or two ago now, it kind of hard to keep up with the time now, right? When the Basquiat was at the Seattle Art Museum. No, it wasn't that. It was the Jacob Lawrence exhibit when it was the entire migration series up under one roof. I was like, I'm not going to miss that, right? And I remember being there and it was a line pretty much wrapped around the building, which was fine. But I remember thinking to myself now, if you've got a bat, bat, if you have anything that kind of makes it difficult for you to be standing here for an extended period of time, this is a nightmare, because there was nowhere for anyone to sit. It's pretty much standing room only. So I didn't see anyone with the walker. I didn't see anyone in a scooter. I just, and I'm pretty sure that there were some people there that physically, that was extremely painful for them. Now, just suppose that with, as I stated earlier about the issues that I have with PTSD and people being too close to me and that room was packed, it was very loud. So I was feeling very, I was very, very overstimulated. So it was really, really difficult for me to even be present and be in that space. And there were a couple of times where I almost just left because I couldn't handle. It was really hard to be there. So I kind of lost my train of thought, which again, something that happens with PTSD. I think what I was really speaking to more so was that, that I don't think that it's always an intentional act to leave people out. I think just like with anything that's dominant, if the majority of the people aren't dealing with disabilities, that's not going to be their first thought, which, okay, fine. That's forgivable yet at the same time when people with disabilities try to say, hey, here's some things that you can do to make this a little bit of a better experience for those of us who do have those issues. It goes in one ear and out the other. It's almost like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. And we're just like Elizabeth was saying, someone will sit up there and say, well, we don't have the money for that. And it's like, okay, but there was a line around the block and people bought tickets so they could interact with this. So what exactly do you mean when you say that you don't have the money? So do you really not have the money or do you just not want to use the money for that? Because since that's not your experience and it's not a problem that you're having, you don't want to allocate the resources to make sure that it's not a problem for others. And we go through that just in daily life, let alone accessing the arts because then it becomes, well, that's an arbitrary thing. You don't have to be here. So why should we go through all of this effort? Like it's not your job. It's not going to the grocery store. Like you don't have to be here. So why should we have to work that hard? And again, when you start to feel that way, you and I'm not wanting to show up. Like, well, I mean, if that's how you feel about it, I'm not, this will be the last time I come here and there have been places, there have been events I've wanted to attend that I knew they weren't going to have that kind of accommodation. So I didn't even go. There's a lot of things that I've wanted to participate in that I knew wouldn't be the best for my disabilities. So I don't go. And I lose out because basically someone, to get to what Emmy was saying, because someone's basically decided that I'm too much of a problem. And it's like, how am I a problem when I just want to come and look at this gorgeous Basquiat painting, you know, this once in a lifetime opportunity? How am I, how is it a problem to want to be able to say I was able to see the entire Jacob Lawrence exhibit, all of those paintings under one roof, which was a rare thing. Like, to know that wanting to engage in something that every human being has a right to experience and appreciate makes me a problem. It's like, you know, like I'm trying not to cry because that it hurts and it makes me angry. And then, and then I kind of just like back off. So, yeah, all of that. I apologize if I kind of veered a little bit, but yeah, it gets to me sometimes. And then, yeah. I think I'm going to transition us into, in a moment into the community conversation portion of this to make sure that there are other folks from the disability community who are attending this Zoom call and want to share their ideas after this conversation we've had that y'all can jump in. What I'm hearing, what I've heard today is that a world, you know, our ideal accessible future of theater includes a place where disabled artists and patrons can be spontaneous, that all patrons are supportive of each other, that disability is a first thought and not a last one, and that you don't have to ask for access and you don't have to advocate for basic things, that access is automatic, that it's universal, which is a future that I want to live in. I think that everyone wants to live in. So, in a moment, we're going to have everyone who's watching the Zoom webinar will be invited to be part of the conversation. That is so that we as a community can vision the future of theater and include your unique ideas and expertise that come from your lived experience. So, you'll be invited to be a panelist and when you join the meeting, your cameras will be off, you'll be muted. So, if you don't want to appear on the live stream, if you don't want to comment, that's totally fine and you don't have to and you can continue to just listen if you'd like to. For the panelists you've been sharing for so long, I invite you, if you'd like to take a break or become more of listeners, you can turn off your camera, but if you'd like to continue on, you can keep your camera on. So, I'll ask Hattie, who's behind the scenes, to invite folks in from the audience. And I'd also love to acknowledge that Emmy has started a conversation already with the community on the Seattle Theater Artists Facebook page in advance of this panel. Thank you for already including community voice in this conversation, Emmy. And as well, if you or somebody else who is a part of that discussion wants to share what folks have been sharing from that discussion, you can do that as well. So, I would love to invite, if there's anyone from the audience that is part of the disability community or has a disability, would like to share what you want the future of theater to look like. If you could wave a magic wand and change the theater world, what would it look like for you? And you can show your face, you can unmute yourself. Obviously, we have interpreters here as well for folks. And if no one from the community would like to share, that's totally fine as well. It's been a long night. If also anybody from, oh, I see Arlene is raising her hand. And if anyone also from the panel has any things that you wanna share that haven't already been shared, you can also share that anytime. So, Arlene. Now, I had a question. Hi Monique, for Kamiko thinking about what you mentioned about having people behind you for an extended period of time and performance. And I don't know if this is common practice in box office, but I was wondering if it should be common practice in box office to have a question that says, do you have any specific seat requirements due to a visible or invisible disability that would open the door for people to get a back seat row or a corner or a row's aisle seat or whatever else might be most helpful? I think so because when I go to the movies, I will without fail. I sit the last seat on the row where I'm by the steps. So, if I need to get up for any reason, I can just go. Sometimes I'll have a panic attack and obviously I don't wanna try to climb over people to get out to deal with that. So, I think so because you'll have, otherwise you'll have people who'll get an attitude about saying, well, why do you need that seat? And we know that when the seats that are earmarked for the accessibility seats that are earmarked, people for the most part don't have an issue with that or at least they don't say it out loud. But people like me, I still need that even though I don't have the exact same need. I still have a need to be able to kind of keep my space to my space and just for me, I come up with all of these little tricks, these little hacks to be sure that I have an experience. Like I don't go, if I go like, well, before COVID, if I went to something on opening day, I would go early in the day where there would be less people so I could have like a choice of seats. There's like, don't go on the weekends, I would only go during the week again, less people. So I'm not as stressed out and as freaked out like going through all of this because I know if I just go and buy a ticket and sit somewhere, then I just kind of get what I get. And I don't know what that's like for anyone else here, but those are some of the things that I need just so I can still enjoy the experience and not be overwhelmed with all of the other things that come with it. So yes, absolutely. I think that that should be a consideration, Arlene. Thank you for asking a question. Thank you so much for the insight and all the panelists. Thank you so much. There is another question from Vijay in the chat about captions. They say, I understand that an ideal behavior for organizations is to normalize, prioritize and champion in budgeting for accessibility accommodations when planning their program. However, in the case that an organization or a person who is producing an online event does not have enough funds to hire speech detect writers, what are your thoughts about less expensive software generated captions for live streamed events or live video conferences? And this can expand to just like general software. We talked about online accessibility that you just love, that has worked really well for you that you'd like to share with folks if anyone has information about that. And I also know that the Seattle Cultural Accessibility Consortium, I think it's going to be going more in depth with budgeting and software and things like that. So I'll also point you to that for more information. But if anyone has anything they'd like to share in this space. Elizabeth, yeah. So live captioning is the gold standard for large meetings, really large meetings. So I would try to go with that. But for smaller meetings, I think that automated software is fine. And the software that I use is called Auto, O-T-T-E-R, period AI. And I have a third into my Zoom platform. And I actually like it better than web, as Monique was saying. No, different people have different preferences, but I find the Auto to be incredibly intuitive. And so that is an option to use. It's a small fee per month cheaper if you purchase by the year. But depending on the size of your gathering, I think that would be fine. But for very large gatherings when things could possibly get messed up, it would be good to invest in having type captioning for those. But other people may have opinions on that. Thank you, Elizabeth. I'll close us out. So definitely check out the Seattle Cultural Accessibility Consortium, whether you're in Seattle or not, incredible, just resources upon resources, podcast, blog, events. So they've been a huge help in my professional world as well. So thank you, Elizabeth, for that. And everyone here who's involved with that in different ways. Chemico has a podcast episode. Check that out. Also check out Vonem Creative Media and Parachute Players. Cassidy has a book becoming an exceptional leader and look out for her work. And check out Deaf Spotlight, which Monique is a part of. And the various artistic endeavors that we see coming out of Monique's world and incredible artists in so many different ways. Thank you so, so much for being a part of this panel. It's been amazing to vision this world of universal access that I believe we can get to. And that's all. Thank you. Good night. Have a lovely winter.