 introduction and then you can start. Is that fine? So welcome Professor Samina Dalwai. It's great to have you talk to us at HBCC today. We'll start with a brief introduction of Professor Dalwai. She's a professor at Jindal Global Law School. She writes on caste gender low cultural nationalism, legal education both in English and Marathi. She has co-edited an anthology of her personal memoirs titled Babri Masjid 25 years on and has published a monograph named bars and bar girls performing caste in Mumbai dance bars. Her Marathi book going into print in 2021 is called Bhattak Bhavani. So I should say that I've rarely seen people addressing all the three major dimensions of discrimination relevant to Indian mainstream caste, religion and gender. So once again welcome. So today she will be talking to us on issues at the intersection of education, caste and gender. She will begin by discussing how does the politics of caste and gender affect the access to education in our country. Then she will go on discussing whether merit is the accurate term to understand ability of students coming from disparate and unequal backgrounds. After that she will touch upon can experience provide a new framework or it can experience be a framework on debate on education. So over to you Samina can start. Thank you so much Masjid and Subraji for inviting me. I'm a little intimidated by the fact that I will be first time speaking to science people and pure sciences people. So I'll begin by showing our work that social scientists and so this talk will be I'm told 45 minutes. I always go overboard. So Masjid if you can please come at 45 minutes. I will know that you're 45 minutes and then I'll try to that strict you can. It's a bit flexible. Usually we go on I mean for one and a half hour including discussion. Okay that is still I must be controlled. So then I will begin by so I will start by telling you the four axis on which I will I have organized this. I teach in the law school. I have a law degree and then I did my LLM from Warwick University and then I did a PhD in social legal studies. So I teach in the law school some core subjects which are pure law subjects like family law constitution etc. But I also focus mainly because at the as we go higher in research course we focus more on our niche topics. So I teach introduction to feminist thought caste gender and law. I also introduced a course called the literature and culture two years back. Feminist jurisprudence which is also known as feminist legal theory. So these are there is also gender and society and these are the topics that I teach in class. So I will start to be telling you the four axis in which this talk is organized. One is whether discrimination exists and if it does what how do we know that discrimination exists. Secondly, if there is discrimination then what is the reason for discrimination and my thesis has been for past 10 years that it is because of the caste gender politics in India that most almost all kinds of discrimination exists in the country. It's not just the country it's actually the subcontinent because we have similar situations and studies coming out of Pakistan, Bangladesh, some Sri Lanka but more Pakistan Bangladesh which are actually seemingly Muslim countries but caste discrimination of a different level but guided or influenced by caste exists there as well. So that's number two. Three is then an experiential learning which is what does discrimination do to people, what it does to people, what it does to education system and what it does to society as a whole. And then I move to point four which is if this is the case and if you are convinced by then that it is the case then what can we do about this are there solutions to this and then does reservation help. So reservation is the last bit in this I have not focused too much on that but we will come to that as well. So and I had spoken to Mashoot to allow me to circulate a bibliography so by tomorrow evening or so I'll share a bibliography of the material that I use in my talk. Okay so we'll begin with this. Generally I begin my caste gender class many of these classes even even my feminism classes with a few questions. So please pay attention students and colleagues. First is why are toilets in India so dirty? Why are toilets in India so dirty? You must have travelled abroad and toilets unlike us are actually clean in most places. Secondly, why does in Hindi cinema if there is an inter-religious marriage they always show the girl to be Muslim, the boy to be Hindu. So Bombay many things that generally mainstream cinema where there is a what we call the love marriage in India it's very funny term for a choice marriage which is love marriage as if all the other marriages which were arranged by parents don't have love within them but so the love marriages between inter-religious couples are mainly in mainstream media, Hindu boy Muslim girl and not vice versa and why is that? That's the second question. If I remember other questions I'll come to this and hopefully by the end of the talk we will come to this. Of course the second question has been answered a lot in the past year or so from October onwards by the whole love jihad debate so maybe I don't have to go into that but I think it also connects communalism to caste politics. Okay so if we begin with the first one what do we do as social scientists when I'm looking at something as a so because if you are in science labs you have a problem you're trying to look for a solution for a problem if there is a coronavirus then what do we do with it what what kind of anti if that's the theses then what kind of anti theses can we bring so that this virus can be tattered so that's a generally a us science question. What is a political question? Political question is this that we are dealing with today if there is discrimination is there a discrimination in this society what is it based on what are the reasons why is there discrimination? So we generally do these kind of policy making kind of research where say we study discrimination we we try to also come up with solutions so those solutions are impetus to do policy writing or policy intervention so if I'm doing law work and if I have done work on how rape trials work in India then I am able to tell the judges from my writing that rape trials and this is a work by a colleague who's written a huge book called public safe rights of law rape trials in India and she says that rape trials in India the day-to-day rape trials every day ones are like a pornographic film in which a rape victim is forced compelled to do her part so in the court she's supposed to actually show what happened lie down on this bench so anything anything can be asked of her which is humiliating insulting and also rattling as a witness so these kind of things Pratikshabakshi sees the author of this book that one is a pornographic trial is happening in which everyone is watching all of these lawyers witnesses the accused if it's a if there are three accused four accused they are all men uh court believes the um policemen and there is this one woman playing her part in the pornographic trial secondly there is a courage of um the woman that is the most important so burden of courage in a rape trial is squarely on the shoulders of this poor woman who has gone through a trauma the state does not take over the trauma or the courage so this is how we do law research we look at something and we do ethnography ethnography is where we go to a group of people or a situation and try to find what's happening according to that then we try to give solutions first we are trying to find what is happening then we are digging deep into why this is happening what are the reasons what are the deep-seated reasons that are part of our particular society that are uh feeding into this kind of situation and then we try to come up with solutions okay so in this um I will cite some studies which give us some kind of insight into discrimination so there is there is a poverty lab you must know because um we have shared India has shared the uh Nobel Prize for Economics in this so poverty lab is based in um on the eastern coast of America and uh they do a lot of these experiments so they came up with a race experiment in the beginning so if you look up for Malayanathan reporter you will find this first experiment that I speak of where they are trying to see how race works so what they did was a simple thing they came up with they printed um we're talking about race works in education and in employment so they printed a series that are um very blatantly white names white Caucasian American names and very blatantly black muslim names from Jamaica from Africa etc so names like um Greg versus um names like Greg Baker very common white name for a man Greg Baker versus Jamal Jones very uh particular name for black Africans many of them can be muslims many not but Jamal is a very commonly used African name so these are the and what they did was if I am the company uh with some openings and recruitment and they sent same CV with different names to this company they did this with varied companies same CV different names and they realized that after they collated this data that far more white names got an interview call same CV same company then they so this was after this thing was done uh Thorath uh Sudev Thorath an intellectual from Maharashtra uh lives in Delhi he was also UGCC chairman he came up with he has been working and writing on discriminational a long time he came up with a similar thing his team and they did um CVs like again Sharma Varma Mehta or Dube Chaube Nishad very um definitive names surnames of lower caste upper caste people and they sent these CVs to companies in Delhi and they found similar results they found that CVs which are um definitely upper upper caste looking only the name rest of it is the same uh get more interview calls so we are talking about employment in which this is the first step of entry just the CV sending of a CV after that interview happens in interview uh Newman and Jyotka study in 2007 show that uh in recruitment formal sector operates within the through a way of linguistic delusion and metaphor what does that mean so it means that they say when they ask you questions about yourself you are an interview you are speaking about yourself good family background matters what does good family background mean that my father was this my mother was this my generally good middle class family background means that my father was a bank employee or say I am working now I have gone to work you know university my interview I will drop that my mother was also a professor my grandmother was also a professor and the indirect bias will come in immediately right so perpetuation of discrimination happens through these terms of meritocracy work ethic etc but good family background is a subtle clear criteria which is essentially caste based according to Newman Jyotka 2007 then um there are interesting studies that show us then how this happens for example there is something called the grandfather effect that means that if my grandfather was disadvantaged he was all he was a he was working as a sweeper in the panchayat of my village then most likely even if so this effect says that even if I get education if I move in education so I have mobility uh trans generational mobility in education I may not have transgenerational mobility in employment so if my grandfather was working as a sweeper in panchayat till where will I reach that mobility is very restricted and how this happens so there is interesting work done by Ashwini Deshpande another Maharashtrian a lot of writing so if you were to look up her writing you will find a lot of interesting things but she says and I want to come back to her because she has also got a book of called assessment which is which is a later latest book 2013 book I think she has done articles after that but the book is called assessment of affirmative action program and that tells us how affirmative action may help but she also her book called grammar of caste was very interesting in how in markets so this idea that when we enter modern markets when we enter a city like Bombay Delhi where actually you cannot understand the visible markers of caste are not there you don't know who you're traveling with in the train so earlier untouchability that you could not touch people you would not take their shadow you would not let them enter the Mandir Vagra maybe in the Mandir premises this is possible but in the train it's not possible in the restaurant it's not possible so we tend to believe young people and maybe my generation people my uncles and they all believe that actually caste is no more it doesn't work the same way because what they've seen in the villages earlier is not happening in the cities so Ashwini Rishpande tries to tell us that that's not the case maybe untouchability in the similar formats earlier is not working but in the market when they enter there are all these small small criterias interesting ones in which caste and gender I must not forget gender caste she is talking about but I will give examples of gender also caste works in new markets in globalizing markets in very cosmopolitan cities of India Asim Prakash actually a book called Dalit capital state society state market and civil society he was a colleague of mine here then he went to Hyderabad a very foremost very interesting scholar of caste and market and labor and he has done this book called Dalit capital and in that he gives small small examples okay a guy is trying to say a woman of lower caste is trying to not be a she is she's a sweeper and now she wants to be a vegetable vendor so now she wants some capital and she goes to the bank and then he gives lots of examples and the it's an interview based book so ethnography of markets state and civil society so he says he's speaking to this woman she goes to the bank the bank manager will not give her loan because he knows that she is actually from a caste which she's doing sweeper sweeping work so the first thing is these are the same banks you remember actually gives thousands of crores of dollars to people who are definite to not pay the niraj modis the whatever modis those bankers the american banks british banks have all failed because they actually break banks have all failed because they gave money to people that they knew were not going to pay back but a woman who's asking for 10,000 or say 20,000 rupees in the local taluka bank will not be given that loan that easily she will need collateral she will need a house to show she will need other people to come and give say that i will pay on her behalf and she has no one to do that or a scene gives and this actually this example resonates with me when actually a lady who works with us in bombay i live in sony padna but and she said one time she brought a farm and she said in this form now i need a signature of a gazette officer and she said what is that so we told her that gazette officer she said i know nobody who's a gazette officer she said in my whole community there is no one that is that educated she was a she was a mahar from uh she is a mahar from uh i think alibaug or pongkan maharashtra so no one no one in the three generations and after her two generations is a gazette officer she knows nobody who is actually or has a master's degree within her family she knows all of us but and then i thought how many gazetted officers do i have around me how many judges lawyers like kachire jaissa engineers how many do i have around me right i cannot count uh so i realized how positions in simple things so her access versus my access to something how is it different when she goes to do a simple job of going to a school and getting a school living certificate whatever she she did her education silly standard 10th standard um very learned woman in so many other ways reads books gives me comments um feedback on what she read what access and this is actually you can see this happening everywhere so i had a colleague called paul willis um if you find him in keel university and his most well-known work was called learning to labor so this is not just india this happens everywhere i said uh malina malinathan report shows us that um um in america they did a small survey of um small little thing uh that i'm trying to sell my um ipad or a company is trying to sell an ipad and ipad is held in a hand and photos are taken like this i'm holding right they realize if i if an ipad is held the face is not shown anything is not shown just the ipad in the hand if this is the photo and the hand holding the ipad is white versus the hand holding the ipad is brown or black more ticks clicks come to the ipad being held by the white hand this is called the unconscious bias we realize that all the time we find i go to the monday i see three dogs playing i say oh how cute little dogs shall i pick up one dog and then what i want to pick up is the white dog always because white dog looks cute to me right so this the the ipad holding hand paul willis's work is called learning to labor how working class kids get working class jobs and that was his seminal work that he did in the 70s a man the man is now 75 uh and in that he sat in the british um high school classes for over a few months and he realized how the language of masculinity plays around in this classroom so the masculine stars of football uh the guys who are like the guys who are going to get the girls who are hot guys sexy men that kind of terminology masculinity language macho language is used to actually or is super imposed on working class culture and so not doing well or not reading for class was actually macho and all of this led to these guys doing their high school and then either dropping out and getting jobs in the kind of jobs that their grandfathers had suthar loha kumar carpenter mason plumber uh electrician etc or they would go to the schools that taught technical education right so what you call the trade schools in britain whereas the rest who were the non macho kids the glasses valet but they went into university and they got degrees and degrees after that and whatever whatever and they like their fathers and grandfathers got into non-working class jobs so these are called obviously the blue colored jobs and the white collar jobs so the difference started very early in school and high school so these are now the kind of things that that work world over but we come to uh part two of my uh talk which is what is the reason for discrimination and caste discrimination in india why does caste matter so much what is about caste that actually breeds discrimination so there are two things and i will share my own writing i have done a few articles on actually my main work is sexuality erotic labor so my um book monograph which was based on my phd is called bands and barbells which was on since you are in bombay you know the dance bar ban dance bar ban in 2005 and that um my work mainly is on that the book is on that uh performing caste the subtitle is performing caste in mumbai's dance bars and that speaks of how again caste and gender politics works in law when they bring a new legislation to ban dancing which was almost an innocuous category of work um before that after that never was dancing ban though actually they did not ban drinking they did not ban sex work they did not ban anything else they only banned dancing and why was that so i do a whole book on this right so my work is on sexuality erotic labor etc but i have in the past five years or so done a lot of work on labor and caste and there is caste and gender and labor so i think there are two uh things why caste matters in employment and labor one is because they it is a graded inequality it's a hierarchy of work it's not uh just hierarchy of it is hierarchy of worth also but it is connected to hierarchy of work what does that mean so when all of these polyvillages students in britain when they were going for um electrician and plumber jobs they did not think of themselves as lower than those guys who are non-macho and going into university and becoming professors they thought well that type of job their job likha padivala job whereas they are in these kind of jobs which are manual jobs but manual jobs in britain are all skill jobs you don't get a plumber in bombay house we call the plumber three times to tell him flush nahi hu raha hai he comes he does something he goes next week we call him again and we wonder why in india all these jobs which are actually very important for our living day to day lives are so unskilled that we think is connected to caste system because as we go down in the hierarchy of jobs there is no training we have only skilled labor for upper strata education and labor engineers doctors and no proper training no good training no self dignified training for nurses the assistants to doctors the technical people in the in the operation theater and all of those people who are supposed to really run the hospital same with engineer the engineers assistant people who are supposed to actually do the work with professionals architect and the people who work with the architect lawyers and people who are supposed to work with the lawyers we don't have a law secretary course so in all the american firms that i visited my friends were working there is a law secretary a very serious position because that person serious position always women let us not forget that in america there is obviously the same if not the same similar levels and similar patterns of prejudice and discrimination so law secretaries will all be women but still white women this law secretary is also hard to get in for a black woman because the intersectionality of oppression race and cast race and gender will make it very difficult for them to break that so but there will be a law secretary we have no law secretary force we have just people who go run to the court come back run and tell us case i am not here everyone else is unskilled when i used to work in the bombay high court very annoying to watch the whole unskilled labor they are all now trained they are all now skilled but they were not trained by education because we do not have education for this this kind of work and that is because we have a hierarchy of mental and physical work cast system creates the brahmin's job versus the non uh versus all the obc jobs what we call the shudra job so i don't have to actually tell you like my students do it that there is there are four main varnas in the cast right brahman shatriya uh vaysha shudra shudra is the last varnas which does all the which are the labouring cast which do all the manual work they are now put in the government category the administrative category of obc other backward cast the last varnas which is called the our varnas the pancham varnas it is no varnas at all which is the group of untouchables right which live outside of the village even now though in many places their land has now accrued a lot of value because they are close to the uh highways that is actually but otherwise they live outside of the village boundary and face unspeakable discrimination even now but we'll come to that so this obc category is the one that does obc and obviously shudra and ati shudra both categories does manual jobs so then it is interesting that a student of mine told me uh of last week she said me i was in sweden and everyone spoke about what to do after 10 i was a young child and i was surprised at the confidence with which my friends in sweden spoke about becoming a carpenter or an electrician and i realized that they are going to get similar price for their labor and similar work for their job and that made me realize that i come from a uh culture where mental work is given immense priority over physical work okay that's the first thing second thing is and what does this do it does very interesting things actually it creates an education system as i mentioned just now of only one kind of training and not the other all the supportive roles are all missing in training there is also the gap in education the ones who think with their mind are not the ones who actually cut the animals so brahmin was supposed to read and the door was supposed to actually cut and skin the dead cattle so when the british uh new education came to become the western doctors who should have been naturally uh who should have been the recipients of that education naturally those people who actually know the anatomy of an animal who actually cut the bodies of animals and they know how to actually cut the tendon so that things can break the same difference between vegetarians and non-vegetarians actually very funny story in the pandit family my mother's family that her chachi they all were intercast marriages and her chachi was a brahmin she was a bapur person bapur's sister actually so she was a doctor but she was a coconut brahmin and she came into this pandit family which was a saraswad brahmin family which ate fish every day she liked to and she would give uh to her daughter fish every day and then her mother-in-law once said to her you are a doctor will the anatomy of the fish change every day what are you doing the fish bones will remain the same just once know the anatomy and don't keep doing this stressful activity and i realized when i heard this story that's the difference of natural capital what we call in my book i call the caste capital but what we call otherwise the cultural capital naturally even when i'm not a doctor if i'm a fish eater i know the anatomy of fish and my husband request me to the big boy that i think should know not for just the little girls because he finds it stressful he does not know the anatomy and the confidence that i have from childhood after actually helping several times fish bones that is what we would call cultural capital what i also redefine and finesse with more finesse caste capital so that comes now think of this that guy who's actually cutting the animals is not getting medical education and the guy who's never gone close to animals never done any work with his hand is going to be the western educated doctor who's supposed to deliver now women of their children and there are stories after stories in uh interesting stories that are coming of her story you know history is his story right history the her stories tell us different kind of history that women used to say how does the feminist history of medical science tells us why does this kind of medical table came for deliveries because actually it is much easier for the woman to roam around roam around roam around while she is giving pains delivery then actually flop on the floor and deliver but the western educated doctor with the tight pants could not sit down to actually squat and do the delivery by the tree that the women were doing by sitting and doing now what they call the tub delivery so it comes back to us it's a cycle right what our women were used to do in the villages comes back to us from America and then we say okay we are going to do water delivery where we are going to sit in the tub and do delivery right so these women used to tell the doctors don't put us on the table with our feet up it makes no sense use squat with us let us walk around that is the difference between education which is happened without actually all of the know-how the cultural capital of it same thing about for example a tendulkar becomes a star cricket star of India and all the invisible tribal boys and girls who are running or the shepherd boys who run with their dogs and all the children that could have been the runners cricketers and sportsmen women of India are absolutely missing invisible we don't see them on Shivaji Park training for any sport this happens because we already have this kind of discrimination on the not just the hierarchy of work but also the hierarchy of work that goes with it how does that work so if I am actually a person who works with my head and I'm a professor not only my job is interesting or good the good job the noble job of a teacher but it also makes me as a person more off work so the bhangya woman that comes to my house to clean my toilet I will tell my children not to play with her children because go bache gande hain because not only her calm is ganda she herself becomes ganda right you got this so work makes the worth of people in this system secondly what caste does within this is labour becomes an obligation or an entitlement how does that work so this is my thesis in that book also that actually we expect people to do labour without payment or much less payment than they could have had if the system did not have caste so when I go from here to the UK and I want someone to come clean my house I can only afford it for a Saturday for two hours when someone will come clean the whole thing do my help then sit at the same table and have have tea with me do galiga gossip and go away but here because I can only afford her for two hours a week here I will pay my helper 10,000 rupees which I will think is a lot for nine to five job in which she does everything it is an obligation to do labour for cheap labour is much cheaper and labour's worth is actually dirt so what does that do again it becomes an entitlement versus obligation and I have several stories of that so let us then go to sorry to interrupt just reminding you about the time you said you want a reminder what how much time have I passed already you can take another 10 minutes okay let's go fast okay so then what does discrimination do to people so I have these stories where they are stagnating because if there are Beswana Vincent who got the Max essay from India a guy from Kerala who then tried a lot in Delhi to do away with manual scavenging he says that people tell us when we say we won't do your scavenging manual scavenging is basically holding shit in their hands putting it on their heads and taking that somewhere else we have 25 lakh people doing this manual scavenging which are all Bhangis so there is full 100% reservation in jobs of Bhangis funnily if you check in Bombay people who come to bring the Kachara truck the Bombay Kachara trucks so people who do the Kachara direct work of Kachara are all Bhangis people who are drivers on Kachara trucks may not be Bhangis but are also invariably from other Shidil cars SC cars so no one self-respecting upper caste is never going to work as a driver on a Kachara truck so this is 100% reservation what we called glass ceiling versus the sticky bottom so this is called the sticky bottom right then there are several examples there is a film called lesser human by Stalin K in Gujarat and his lesser human films show us that there are two girls who are talking about their school experience young girls 10 year olds and they tell us that every day in school they make tea for the teachers and they do Jhadu of the school and the man is asking in surprise why are you doing the Jhadu so the children who are 10 year olds they know that they are actually from the lower caste and so they are doing Jhadu of the school small examples of this how it was so they what happens when discrimination happens to people they are stagnated in schools like this Bezwada Wilson story tells us that when women this is caste and gender together when women try to leave manual scavenging they are directly actually there is direct violence and threats from upper caste men that we will rape you we will beat you up we will do you cannot live in this village we'll drive you out so they get 50 rupees per household for doing this and they do this years and if they die then their children must enter because the toilets are in such a way that new toilets are not put the old toilets need cleaning by hand and when they say we won't do and Bezwada Wilson says in his speech he had come here and people tell him he says people say you are taking revenge from us so I say to them if I say 5000 years we did this work you do this for five years for all of us that would be revenge all I'm saying is we won't do it for you you do your own work same thing that Ambedkar said in 1930s drop your vatan in Maharashtra villages we won't do this job let people manage their own shit you manage your own shit I manage my own shit and that would be some possibility of moving but that doesn't happen they are scared so there is a book by Yashika that very interesting called coming out as Dalit so coming out is a term that is used by LGBT community someone is gay someone is lesbian I come out I come out and tell them that I like women and not men right but and that's a major thing like a rite of passage for someone who's LGBT but he's saying that when I came out as Dalit it was quite a rite of passage because I was scared that I will be found out so I never did anything that could put me in the Dalit politics in Dalit identity in Dalit culture nothing so I was always scared for all those years till my 30 when I came out as Dalit she was a Asian age journalist and what what does it do to people they die so we know the Rohit Vemula's case we know Payal Thary's case we have in the past 10 years or so nearly 23 people who have just committed suicide in the medical colleges so what it does to people what discrimination does and I have also said what it does to education what it does also specific stories you know there is a book called Jhutan it was written in Hindi by Om Prakash Balmiki it is translated to English and I would recommend students to read if they like to read autobiographies very interesting when you're reading autobiographies you enter and journey through the life of a person and he gives one example that some doras some tyagas come to his house and say you have to come help us for agriculture and this is all free labor and he says I can't come I have max exam tomorrow I have my exam tomorrow they say how dare you say they drag him they drag him to do whole days work like a bull there are two ways of understanding this a child of 15 year they drag to do work before his exam I think it's to one how does he say no to us but it's also how dare he try to get education and get away from this so what does this do to society it allows us to remain in the way we are currently an extremely stratified and divided society which is not able to enjoy democracy because it should be between equals at least with people of equal access people who are able to think and who have been provided the tools to think reading writing education we are living in a society that we we cannot create or think or imagine a society or community where we don't need some groups to remain at the bottom of the hierarchy to do our dirty work so we keep my first question in the beginning we keep our toilets dirty we don't pay attention scientific experiment does not happen to how to actually improve bloody toilets we keep our toilets dirty all over India and South Asia and we keep bhangi children away from education to clean them and that it does to society when all of this can be looked at together so then I come to the last bit education of course I look at my children's education they are very young but the kind of education non critical non thinking just do black versus white they say black versus white so you have to do what are the opposite words of black black versus white you could not have something else what if I say black versus if it's opposite of black it could be yellow why black and white are actually two different category which are opposite categories does it make sense to me it makes no sense all colors are different why are they opposite what is the opposite of red blue but because black was versus white so it is an education that is result oriented and it has these very warped categories of milk so then I will go to my last bit that is if people are dying like this if the society is stagnated like this if people have been kept society and people have both been kept in stagnation are there any solutions what can we do so the last bit of this is there could be solutions affirmative action is one of them one solution in which we look at affirmative action in India Ashwini Deshpande in which she tells us a lot of things I'm going to share my notes also apart from the readings that tells us that entirely things don't change but access changes so people who are not able to get that the grandfather effect that the grandchildren of those grandfathers who are actually sleepers you would have a chance to get education and if you have reservation in jobs then you would have a have a first chance to enter those spaces that never existed for you and here I actually would like to cite an article by Kancha Iliathar one of my favorite writers from India his article in EPW is very small very readable very highly entertaining to read it is called experience as a category of as a framework of debate in which he says I could not have as a Gola from Telangana Gola is again a shepherd category in Telugu a Gola from Telangana could not have ever entered the Hyderabad University and later never could have gone to teach in a university if the old patterns of patronage and knowing each other and that's how we get our jobs existing and there was no reservation so out of the he gives a number 1600 say out of that 160s people around him got into education jobs because they could enter with reservation the categories of OBC he's an OBC and categories of SC and then he tells us a lot of these very touching stories of how he came back from education and he read Marx and Engels first time the leftist writers and realized oh these people are talking about the same thing the Dora's Dora is Zemindar Dora in in Telugu is a Zemindar in Dorothy and Hindi so all these Dora's their operation Marx Baba sitting in Germany and UK is speaking of the same thing he's talking directly to me though he's not my man he's some Gora and 200 years back he has spoken of the operation of the Dora's so he comes back and does a speech in the village school on what Marx tells to us what is he telling us that our leftist thing you know the young leftist thing and people children women people of his Basti people outside stood around and hundreds of people listened to his speech and later told him I am going to do anything to push my child to education his one person him and his brother he says that two people that we went to education created impetus to so many mothers to send their children to education and that was an important thing that that was the ripple effect that one person get education others get they see what we can do with education it's not just money it's also the cultural capital simple things like wearing bush shirt and full pants that was a huge thing the Dora's didn't like it when these guys came they said they are now looking like educated urban people and I want my son my daughter to go to education anyways Ambedkar's whole thing was education for women also education for girls every meeting of women he would say educate your daughters so a book called Aidan in Marathi it is now in English called the weave of my life by a Dalit feminist writer called Urmila Pawar speaks of this that Baba Sahib Sandesh came to my mother who used to sit there weaving these little little things the topli the weaving right but she pushed me beat me up to go to education and when my master G made me do jobs that he thought were meant for a Dalit girl my mother came to the to the school the mother who was with the sari with the hair which was like and she came into the village and admonished him she berated him and shouted at him and said I am pushing my child through this she's working very hard and I am working very hard to put her through this and you dare not treat my child like this she will sit at her number they used to sit at people's you know one two three four and this child was third or four she will sit at her number and you will not push her at the end of the class and give her shitty jobs to do I am doing it I will do it but she will not do it so this is very important the impetus to the dream of a new future that you can give to people we used to say in England that people in Britain the lower classes know their place always writes in his book but we also realize that we look around and they don't want to change it whereas our people interesting dynamic democracy always they don't know their place they want to change their place but interesting thing is that when we keep our education and society like this individuals can go up and actually our reservation system currently is like this that individuals can go up one one little bit either with their suitcase from the margins they go up but the whole community of them cannot come up because we need people to do shit jobs because we have kept the economy and the functioning of the state in such a manner that we need people to do our shit jobs so that's why we have this the last study that I have which is again very interesting called the Bhavnani study which shows the reservation effect on women's reservation quota electoral quota and she says there were three types of I am looking at he's a man I'm looking at three types of electorates in the sense three types of election spaces what is it called constituencies the one constituency one third constituencies were made reserve for women candidates and so 10 years back 10 years down the line this man is trying to see what has that reservation done now those seats are no more reserved because those seats are become open and the reservation has shifted to some other seats okay so there are three categories one where no reservation has ever happened one where something has happened before but now they are open and he says that actually the candidature of women has gone 10 folds women who know that they can actually win these seats has gone 5 fold and so the next time when you have elections those seats which are now open for men and women both there are far more women coming in as candidates because parties now know that actually they can win and you have five times more results for women there as successful candidates going into the BNC so that shows us this five times vis-a-vis the ones where no reservation ever took place they are still open always open because this is rotating reservation you know how this electoral quotas work right so that Bhavanani study made me think that this is very interesting that it is showing in politics not in education and in labor but in politics and it is showing for women so here I will end and we shall open for questions thank you so much thank you Samina for such a nice talk we will quickly take a break for a minute and then we will come come back to the question and answer discussion session meanwhile I took clarification you mentioned the the bar ban right so sex work king was not banned the alcohol was not banned so was it like an economic assault on a particular caste was that I mean you didn't clarify that now my job wasn't to speak of that book though it is labor it is connected to caste labor the book is on caste labor but if I went into that as you know I struggle for time a lot already the book is 300 pages so then if I went into that it would so in short is it like is the economic assault for example I think the same thing is there same issue is there in the cow slot or ban as well like already like you know discriminated society I mean this I mean this is entangled with a lot of things but it's a very subtle way of you know attacking the economic source of like an already discriminated or an already underprivileged society so was that a yeah you could say that yeah that it is an economic thing but it's far more complicated than that it is because I believe if I was to say this in two minutes or four sentences I believe that actually bar girls attain a far more financial and economic status and it is because we expect the caste and gender through our caste and gender discourses we expect lower caste women both caste and gender we are talking about they were also Muslim women um caste and gender religion kind of hierarchy within that we expect them to earn a certain kind of low amount of money for their labor and they're earning too much money so the whole discourse was about too much money but so there was a discourse of too much money against these people and I thought it was because the expected outcome of their labor should have been much less but they are earning far more than that and so the ban comes so it is an economic assault but I connected to caste and gender because it is what we expect somebody to earn they are earning far more than that so they are constantly compared to domestic workers they are compared to uh so they are basically not treated as dancers which is a skill labor which can earn that much money okay okay uh so yeah please uh raise your hands or you can type in the questions in the chat box Deepa has a question Deepa you want to speak should I take two questions three questions at a time uh if if like if you like yeah yeah so right now there's one question in chat box by Deepa Deepa you want to speak or uh okay yeah well I mean my question it's there in the chat box Samina for you thanks for actually sharing all these stories and there were several references that uh that are great for us to go back and read so my question was regarding uh you know you talked about caste you talked about gender uh what in your opinion this financial status and since you're being in capitals I would say economic capital how putting that in this picture will change the dynamics of looking at gender and caste and even like on top of it I would also like to get some your views about you know social capital like me knowing some big short personality doesn't matter what gender and caste I belong to but I uh you know I have very close acquaintances let us say from uh to a political uh family for instance how would that change probably many of these concerns that you have brought up and discussed in your talk today I just wanted to get your ideas about it so see if I'm so this is an individual type of question right if somebody who's of Dalit and there is like the whole thing about Dalit millionaires now and all of that and if there are um um Dalit millionaires then things will change for them because the millions will help them to actually uh to some extent obliterate their caste status right uh the same way say let us think of identity as a multiple consciousness rather than one single identity so caste is white identity gender is another identity economic class is another identity race is another one right if I am if I was a poor Lucknow uh artisan a weaver who's lower caste Muslim and has a disability because I got polio in my childhood right good uh so is it one identity there are several identities here so disability will actually make me make it difficult for me to every time climb up any government office or any school or any college my being poor will mean that I won't be able to actually afford the uh very good um walkers like those zoom zoom chairs that I could someone from an upper strata of class will be able to afford so disability can be of hoda helped by class to some extent then caste and being if I'm Muslim and if there are I mean you and there are riots they believe that I have eaten cow then if they come for me then that Muslim identity will become more important at that time than being a weaver but again if I was a upper class Muslim I may have a guard in my uh on my bungalow and I will have friends to tell me that people are coming for you I will not also eat cows it's cheap in India it's not like Argentina cow or the where it's supposedly good meat prime meat in India we don't consider cow meat as prime meat 20 rupees come in time look unless you are in Calcutta Kerala where it's considered good meat so basically we are going to think of it as a multiple consciousness intersectionality multiple consciousness is one term intersectionality is the term that is uh introduced by uh black feminist that race and gender uh basically come to us and uh we are not able to actually even uh navigate law very much so uh intersectionality is very interesting if you were to check Kemberli Crenshaw her talk on TED talk will also give very interesting insights into this term of intersectionality okay I'll take the next one uh oh wait wait wait wait yeah we will uh go by the order uh there are a couple of questions on uh but before that some uh Gurinder have raised his hand and then Tata so after Gurinder Tata Ayush and Ayush Sudevi and Rima so Gurinder go ahead yeah am I audible hello I have Ayush's question here which is excellent question yeah yeah uh let's go I have Ayush's question should I take that question first uh Gurinder Tata and then Ayush because that was the order in which it came okay okay sorry sorry uh so Gurinder please yeah so uh you were talking about this training uh of skills like doesn't happen uh were you referring to just the training of skills to to particular group of people like the people who have been doing these skilled works or you were like kind of referring to something else like I couldn't make out yes very good question both so people who have been doing it sutras have been Rajasthan sutras are great considered great but they have it from father to son to son and that kind of thing right so that is one kind of but they could not actually get a phd in sutarki so you don't have that traditional skill enter into education that is not their one and then what if I want to be a sutra what kind of education can I take it's not there is there a sutra school my daughter wants to be a sutra what can she do a daughter girl and off say upper strata whatever academics daughter she will never want to be a sutra now she wants to but later will she want to be why not there is recent like policy change or some recommendation in the policy education policy for skill education like do you want to comment something around that yes we are trying we are an old country takes time so so you are saying that that that should help this this technical education should help we should have as many colleges for all of this as many we have for engineering what are the engineers doing they all go in it anyways they are all doing data so what are the engineers doing they are all dealing with computers so basically they are very few jobs now so how about economy is revamped in a way to understand what do we need china has been doing it for a long time and look at where they have reached they they know what they need for next 100 years their planning is like that the economic planning is at a country level where you could actually know what all you need accordingly education is provided there is a book called India China by Amartya Singh and Amartya Singh says that again he puts it on cast he says look at India and China why this difference he says all the economies of the east where Buddhism went and there is no caste system education has been put into people to an extent that firstly there is self respect self-worth and secondly when the economy changes they were quickly able to take benefit of it because they were able to train themselves quickly into new stuff our education is not there for masses so how are they supposed to quickly change to new things mostly we have unskilled labor and we saw most to all our shame we saw when the lockdown happened how many people are unskilled laborers and how much the surplus does not exist they could not survive for even two weeks in the city what is the use of working in the city for years if you could not survive for two to three weeks you feel that you are actually going to starve in the city so that all of that is actually together right is that your question or am i yeah yeah yeah okay okay uh hello am i audible yes uh hi samina uh so thanks a lot for for your presentation i think this was like extremely important uh i just had a question which i guess you can i think it's kind of also linked to the question that aiush has written in the chat box so you can decide to take these two together if you want but mainly what i so when it comes to the question of education right which basically most of us in this institute are mainly trying to work on um particularly science and mathematics education right so um we are we are often faced with like so for instance if we try to ask this very simple question of you know what should a what should a relevant science education look like right a kind of science education which is most relevant to people's lives and existence and which which let's say does not alienate people the way it does the current like currently it does right um there are often like two uh aspects like two spheres that emerge when we ask that question one is sort of let's say the political sphere of uh actually how education is organized right so so there we have questions of reservation questions of uh you know how the classroom is organized and so on so forth right which is like a lot of which he also sort of touched upon in your presentation but there is another sphere that comes up which is more about the core idea of science and mathematics for instance or technology as as a body of knowledge in themselves right i mean so a lot of times what we kind of end up doing is okay we can't we have a certain set notion of what technology means or what physics means or what mathematics means and then everything else that that you know these political or social concerns that are raised somehow they are relegated to sort of a superficial a secondary uh layer of how okay how this given that this is physics or given that this is mathematics how do we then properly organize this education but rarely I think people raise that other kind of question that you know like do we also need to take a critical relook at how we even define these bodies of knowledge like bodies of what we call scientific knowledge so I was curious like if you have thought about it like and like I said I mean this might actually you might find it a link to the question that Ayush uh wrote so you can also take a look at that and if you think you can club them thank you okay thank you is uh is tatha tathagat yeah yeah yeah tathagat the name tathagat uh so okay both these questions yes Ayush's question is excellent and tathagats also so I am going to answer it in two ways okay one I do not believe there is um um what is the word that they use unbiased sometimes my neutral neutral neutral i think is a myth uh there is nothing like neutral so uh what is neutral is basically the main political discourse so that's why it actually shows um almost like invisibilizes everything else and everyone is neutral when in neutral jo ho ga though that is mostly um white Caucasian meaning so uh that kind of thing and the education that is given to given as neutral education say in the American sphere of legal education this has been written about it okay so my uh deficit in answering this question is I have read about legal education a lot on how to do this now not to do neutral education or how to not also do uh neutral research when I say feminist research right uh we had someone somebody who went to uh an anthropology phd who went to do her uh viva and then the guy uh who was an outsider um examiner kept saying why are you talking about women this is an anthropology study you should be in women's studies and she said because women are people I am doing people studies which is anthropology study I need not be in feminist study I need not be in women's studies in anthropology I am going to do women so what he thought was neutral was men no it's very funny I mean funny meaning she was obviously uh it was horrible to go to a viva like that where the guy is again and again saying again women why are you talking about women so that means that you are supposed to talk about people who are people definitely men we have this all the time not thus log Marge 10 people died in an accident two women and two children then who were the other six they were men no so men were the people 10 people died two were women two were children so that neutrality is a myth in this way but um and there is a lot of material on say how to teach history how it is taught how her story vagra vagra but I don't know about science education as much a simple little thing that I remember when you were talking about this is um there is material on how medical science is taught in a way that basically teaches women's bodies as the specific strange things so the neutral is the male body and everything else especially the female body is taught to be very different and that has severe effects on so start from there and look at what's happening in for example a rape trial somebody gets raped goes to the police station first thing the police will send her if they want to take the FIR is to a doctor and doctor will do the two finger test as in put these two fingers and they are their fingers are bigger than mine into the woman's vagina already she's she has been battered and has been bleeding and all that to check if she is habitual to sexual intercourse that's the way law and medical science looks at the woman's body so medical science beginning say and there are and somebody that I do also plays vagra I had done a play on this Babri Masjid my own book I turned it into a play so there was another play that a younger lady did and she created a play on and very interesting very scary I thought the way she did it she actually brought out all of this biases and prejudices in medical books so she would read out the medical books open one thing and say hmm what is this bestiality put it in three different form three different nomenclatures normal abnormal I think bestiality or something so then she would put different different things like intercourse gay intercourse sex between lesbians rape assault and then she said that all of these medical books are putting actually rape as something normal because sex is defined as what men do women's role in sexuality or in sexual behavior is considered to be of passive nature the recipient or the giver not of the taker of pleasure or of desire so in this way medical sciences not only makes the body of the woman look strange but also put sexuality in such a way that rape becomes normal and woman's own activity a lesbian activity becomes bestiality something that two women may do together for their own pleasure and desire is much worse than rape where a woman is being forced by a man so that shows us some ways of how science does it but I am very inadequate and I have to apologize to both of you Tathagat and Ayush because I don't actually I haven't really read material on how to do science education but if you give me a day or two I will look up because there is a lot of material on feminist material on how to look at each subject when we are teaching a subject in law I do a lot of like legal education how to teach law in school in colleges how we must put push caste and gender in this so I'm sure somebody like me in science like you guys obviously have done this how to look at and there are people around me who are doing this for corporate law which is very difficult right my job is easier this is a difficult job how to view contract law with the caste and gender lens and they do excellent job of that so science education which is which looks not neutral I have I think as a child read books by homibaba science education center and they were excellent books the science madhya gamti jamti vidnanate gamti jamti I think there was a book and there is like books by your institute that have actually you know brought joy to generations of students but I will think about this more and get back to you I'll send an email via mushoot to you too if I find material on how to how should science education be organized what kind of questions for research can be had what kind of research questions and how we bring politics into this because there is nothing without politics all of this happens with it homibaba versus you wouldn't know this politics right homibaba himself versus Kosambi had had this very interesting thing about how to look at nuclear science and there were two main scientists of this time and actually main scientist meaning Vibhava was a unparalleled scientist but he was Kosambi had this thing that we are going to basically we are peace loving nations and colonialism in itself is a problem of violence so he went there to China and made this speech where he said to the western world that what you have been doing as colonialism which you think is just you know it's okay but that is a violent thing so now you're talking to us peace conferences you're dumping democracy and peace on us but actually colonialism was the most violent act political act so he has done this but I am very sorry I'm going to stop now I don't know more than this thank you so much I just thanks I mean that's that's really helpful and it'll be really great if you uh if you can get in touch about this in in the days to come my reputation is at stake I don't know articles or anything on this so I will get back to you on on this really grateful for the for the stories and insights you've already shared thank you so so very much thank you uh Samina how are you doing with time can we take all the questions is that fine I will I think take two minutes now to answer rather than going this much yeah so then all the questions are there on the chat box you want them to speak or you want to take it whatever they like whatever they like is fine whatever you want to speak is there any studies on which we'll score uh no not that I love actually I am trying to currently read uh Naga land stories but in that there is this tribal uh thing um and um they I haven't read much again of northeastern states that shows us that there is um that kind of severe caste system that we have in our mainland states the northeastern states which are mountain people have the tribal system so there is that uh a discrimination spectrum but caste is not so much the caste is there obviously everyone marries within their caste we should not forget that but especially in the arranged marriage zone but still this kind of constant caste talk startles many of my friends who come from northeast like they come to north india and they say and then the upi will say to each other so the orisa the asami's friends and people who are from the more uh remote northeastern states they are very startled they are like here um why are they constantly bringing their brahmin caste and whatever even my family I think is brahmin but uh this constant thing you know constant is I don't think there is evidence for that which is of the similar level and they face a lot of um because of the looks face a lot of issues here in north india my daughter who just went is from nagaland and she has the naga features so we are a little bit concerned with north indian boys trying to trouble her and we will have to train her to be a naga warrior which was a head hunting tribe so you know I'll read the next one thank you so much for your answer amongst elephants yes yes yes yeah yeah rima there is material on this there is a thing I will share my articles in one email but you can google me there is a um there is a very interesting group of anthropologists and uh writers from india and britain who write on caste in uk and they have done material on this kind of thing uh you know what you're speaking of that uh sujata ghidla but do you also see that she started working in the n y metro because the metro also is a respectable job there in america no she doesn't have to do the mental job she can do the physical job and then you can write books this kind of hierarchy of physical work versus mental work is not there as much though and yeah please go on rima I agree um thank you so much for taking that question I agree that there there's not I'm not uh I forgot I mean uh I didn't realize that I'm raising that kind of a division between uh you know mental work and physical work but what I'm saying is that how it pushed her out of the system she's a techie she's a qualified techie how that pushed her out of the system and you know if you read about her autobiography it is it is hair raising it's horrible you can't read it you can't bear to read it and there she goes you know hoping for a better I mean whatever she was expecting and it didn't afford her any of the capital it looks like I mean it is our people now we pack our um masala and caste system when we go abroad also we don't uh forget that here so we never forget that and uh so there also it was with the techies right it was with Indians that she was working maybe in the Gora uh and um uh black land if she was in New York I think she is uh now lots of friends of the black community etc and there is another guy um um called Suraj Yengde who writes or Indian Express he writes a lot about how Dalits and black people have a lot of commonality yeah we could be friends and whatever do politics together in UK's material is this caste in UK and they have done how it is done even in the second generation I think Sujata Ghidla's experience is the first generation techies people like us now how are we going to change if we go there we do come back marry people from our caste and take them there all my friends who are there I came back but people who live stayed there come come married a come are ready married are ready Maharashtra and Brahmins married Maharashtra and Brahmins so that doesn't make any difference we eat the same food at home we talk the same sariya we wear the same and then there also you have some bhajji pujari that will come to do your home what is heaven and home shanti what do you say Greshanti Greshanti we do there we don't change there tell your daughters not to have white boy friends especially not black boy friends so yeh sab to hota hi hai. Second generation tries to get out but it's difficult and second generation material will come to you in my bibliography much on that UK I have one small article on EPW called caste in UK Shores so UK did a employment tribunal in UK came up with a judgment very interesting judgment that included caste in the category of ethnicity for the purposes of equality at 2010 and my small piece little bit gives information into that if you wish to read that article to become but if you wish to read the judgment that's also available and you can always write to me and I'll send so that's also very interesting how these countries are trying to deal with caste caste a category that doesn't exist in their law but they are trying to work it through the category of ethnicity so that I hope Rima I did some bit students are good with hands but since you mentioned Suraj young day he he talked to us in January like the same on one of the first group but he can speak from the what we call the positionality of being a Dalit scholar I can be only an outsider to that I'm not considered to be a student I'm just asking you this kind of G.N. ka question nahi sabhaj me aya G.N. you want to speak yeah so my question is I hope you can hear me yes yeah so see the the current model that we're practicing you know in education is that up to for example 10th standard we give them learn certain things in the school and in that entire process if you can't develop scholarly education then you go to ITI so which essentially means that you're already filtering people who would have otherwise had other skills for example and then we don't penalize the so-called scholars that you know you can't even do such a small thing with your hands yeah how can you graduate at that then standard you know so what you're doing is you know the education system is already so structured to segregate people in this manner yeah and then we're continues to propose unfortunately even the new education policy that we're talking about right now you should G.N. please write about this please write the newspapers about this this is an important argument and I would highly recommend Kanchailia's that one small piece and actually very very good he says at that time I could not have spoken in the political science term that all of these people in Hyderabad were speaking but I was actually so seeped into my life in the village I understood how caste works class works how politics works how panchayat is working so I could actually understand that what is happening in the village level is happening at the level of the country and so as a political scientist I was very good but I could not speak that language then so if I was filtered out I could never be an intellectual later you see and this actually happens with everyone when I was I went to Marathi medium school and a lot of my school and that was because my parents were very this socialist idealist language of the masses and yeah what's up huh and then later when I was applying for a master's to worry I said to my mother I'm not going to spend money so she sat me down and said yes how much money has been spent this friend of yours you have a crush on him how much money has his father spent on him count and she said at 12 you could not have gone to the national law school Bangalore because you couldn't take that exam you could not write that much English but he went to that and he has already spent 10 lakhs on that basic education of law and you went to government law college 50000 fees that you are very worried but we have spent nothing on your education you will come to you feel there is huge deficit between you and all of these people and all these people are actually currently you know laurence liang and sudhir sitapati and all of these people who are very were so ahead of me at that time when I was 23 years old but now 20 years down the line I have surpassed them so that is exactly what kanchailya is saying because I know Marathi I write in Marathi now I know that politics that happens in the villages of Maharashtra I can go and connect that to my husband's place in Telangana I don't understand Telugu but I keep asking the question he is asking all of this I keep and go do wherever I go for any family holiday also I am doing my social science research I am asking those questions it comes back to me from my Marathi medium education and all of the cultural capital that come to me from being from mursoli village from muslim side whatever village from the hindu side all of that was a problem when I was growing up it became an asset when I'm grown up same as kanchailya speaks in his article so you are right please write gn please write about this for a newspaper best to write in hindi marathi telugu etc more people read our stuff but english if we can't do those languages next please this course around coming out as dalit it's from solochana yeah uh solochana what do contemporary values is yeah because see the question is interesting because you have to do identity politics to get out of the identity right I don't like to be a woman I don't like to call myself a woman I was very much a tomboy and do lots of things without thinking that I'm a woman especially in Bombay we don't we were not raised like that then you come to north india and you're constantly when I talk people are very surprised I realized oh I was a woman and so uh shouting wasn't actually something they expected from a woman so I have had to change according to identity now I change my tone so instead of shouting like I would have been in Bombay I say bhai saa jara dekhile gavi ajoo ajoo lot bhi kare hain and that makes them ashamed but I could have naturally shouted because I'm from Bombay yeah we too shouted everything and everyone but identity works in very interesting ways so to fight identity I have to do feminist politics right so to get out of the Dalit identity they have to do Dalit politics there is writing from on identity politics by an old writer called Rajini Kothari and he introduced a term called identity politics and he said that in India the caste politics like all of this actually he came at the time and before at the time of the you know the Mayavati and a spectrum spectrum that actually rose in identity politics but he was talking about Yadav politics and he said identity politics has become a very interesting genre of politics in India where to get away from or to fight caste politics lower caste also have gathered around the caste their own caste and so now they are trying to rise up as a caste group so in politics their rise will happen as a caste group even though they are trying to fight the caste politics of the upper caste so to do that you are rising on the identity so to get for example as a woman I want to get maternity benefits for my child I have to do feminist politics and then I have to actually rally with other women and do that politics so I'm not sure I've answered that question touched upon it what do Dalit activists say I would suggest I'm going to write down these genes otherwise I forget what you're saying there are blogs called Savari Roundtable India which are very useful to understand what is happening currently there is a thing called Dalit camera but let us not only talk about when we are talking about caste the caste society also pushes Muslims away to our major charging we realized in our very swanky looking upper middle class Bombay colony they have an internal policy and the internal policy is basically that they will not sell their homes to Muslims and my mother came to know to her great charging two months back she went mad she didn't know what to say to this and she's like what the hell will I say to these people and I just said say just ask what the internal policy is because somebody a Koja Muslim has come as us as a buyer and the woman is saying are we going to follow our internal policy guys and other guys are saying of course because so far we have done that she says but these are the kind of buyers we are getting so he says the man who's saying we should follow some party the woman selling is some butch Gujarati upper caste Patil is Maharashtra upper caste and she's saying but these are the kind of people we are getting I am getting who are ready to pay what to do the party sir is saying maybe other people also bought these kind of people only but they have suffered only because of internal policy now what to say so 26 January happened after that I put up a big board below the housing colony saying we in this colony we are a community of people of different caste communities creeds professions preferences occupations and religions we are proud to truly represent India hashtag truly represent India what to say so Dalits are not allowed Muslims are not allowed people who eat non veg are not allowed very difficult this monolithic society very boring also I don't know if you guys have read my tanishk article it had become very interestingly I so in there I'm trying to say that I will share my stuff which I like there are some things that I don't like my pieces but the good ones I will share for this kind of thing it's interesting questions I'm not sure I have the full answer for that like a Muslim difficult to hide a woman difficult to hide Dalit you could hide yeah I mean you did give us so much insights thank you so much yeah Dalit camera is a wonderful handle I think however the round table of India has been criticized for not including Dalit scholars in their discussions previously so I hope that is you know they have done something about it but wonderful talk thank you so much thank you thank you thank you Samina I think there are no more questions wow we are questionless okay then I have a class at 6 30 I will it was a pleasure meeting all of you and thank you some of you for showing your pretty faces also like Aayush here and Sugaraji there and thanks for attending having patience not asking or some questions for which I'm always prepared but I am not a patient woman so then I start getting angry but thank you for it's a it's not just a pleasure I'm sure it's an honor to come to a education and science education organization to speak it's possible only because of the favors of covid and we should thank covid for that and thank you so much please write to me if you wish to ask for more stuff directly Ashur has my email yeah I will share the references and all which you and they can write to you as well and do visit when you are in Mumbai sure thing this is in Mankur yeah this is in Mankur right next to BRC Sugaraji thank you so much thank you thank you very much it was I mean I'm very proud that somebody from my region has given such an education village that too yeah that too many villages I did not speak about thank you so much okay thank you bye