 Welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fiedel. This is American Issues, Take One. We are joined today by my co-host, Tim Appagella, and our special esteemed guest, Chuck Crumpton. Now to talk about whether the country is actually coming apart, we've talked about this before. This time we're going to talk about the fact that there are a number of states that don't seem to be following. In fact, they're thumbing their nose at federal precedent acts of Congress and the Supreme Court, which is very supreme. Anyway, we're in a place that is clearly unprecedented, and that's what we want to talk about. We want to talk about the lawlessness in the country. Three states so far have been lawless openly. Maybe other states, other red states, are going to drop out also. I remember what happened with the fake electors. That was real. It was real fake. Remember what happened with the insurrection? That was real violence. No one respects the Supreme Court, and it's really too late for a recovery, not in our lifetimes. No one respects the police, law enforcement. No one respects our foreign policy around Ukraine. We shouldn't say no one, but a lot of people. Millions think that the Trump indictments are false. It's like a civil war internally. Is it Trump? Is it the GOP? Is it the complacency of the Democrats? Is it failure of democratic leadership? Is it the split media and the repetition of lies? Is it social media? Is it education? Is it only above? Is it getting worse? And what's the effect in 2024? Wow, what a discussion. Tim, let's start with you. Do we have a condition of lawlessness in the country now? Yeah, and it's popular to do so, Jay. But, you know, let's look at a little bit of history here. We've had a tradition of certain states thumbing their nose at the federal government, and I'll remind everyone that between 1860 and 1865, we had this thing called the Confederation of States, the Civil War, which was settled up on 1865, the Appomattox Courthouse between General Lee and General Grant. Talk about thumbing your nose at the federal government. Then we fast forward to 1957, Brown versus the school board, a little place called Little Rock, Arkansas, where President Eisenhower had to deputize the state's National Guard to ensure that the students can be escorted to classrooms safely without fear or threat of their lives. Then if you recall in 1963, where Governor George Wallace of Alabama famously quoted segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever. Well, forever did last very long. JFK deputized the National Guard, and that was the end of Governor Wallace trying to bar minority students from entering classrooms. Fast forward into the 2000s, Colorado, a number of states have passed their cannabis laws, in a sense that's thumbing their nose at the federal government because the federal government still has a substance abuse control law that says cannabis is considered an illegal drug. So the list goes on, and we've had a history of it. So the answer is yes. We have it now, and we've had it in the past. Chuck, is the confluence different now? Is our current condition of lawlessness different than it has been on these various occasions that Tim mentioned? I think Tim's historical background is really important context to understand. That is the history to which people like Boebert and Green and Gates, and many of them are reverting, and to which McCarthy and others are exceeding, and certainly the former president, but the tone and spirit have changed. It's become much more violent. It's become much more personal. And we're looking at exactly what you were talking about in your intro. These are all in Disha of C-Session, where in Alabama, the head of the Alabama legislature said, we know what the people of Alabama want and need much better than anybody in Washington. Referring specifically to the Supreme Court as you can get. It's kind of like saying, well, you know, the heck with you and the horse you rode in on. Wisconsin, after an election in which a more liberal candidate displaced a former more conservative member of the Wisconsin Supreme Court by not a narrow margin. It was this good solid six, seven point margin, which in today's elections is substantial, especially in a place like Wisconsin with a lot of rural voting districts. And now the Republican dominated legislature is looking at trying to impeach that liberal justice to keep her from participating in the voting rights in gerrymandering cases that they've been the engineering to try and maintain and expand on that very politically discriminatory and racially discriminatory gerrymandering that they've been engaging in. So how do you stop it? Yeah, you're right. You know, you need a really strong leadership in Washington to say something and do something without hesitation and somebody that people will follow. You know, one thing that strikes me though, Tim, you know, you had a whole list of offals that are really interesting, but some of them, if not most of them were individuals and states operating on their own account. What we have now is a kind of nexus, even a conspiracy among members of the GOP, the MAGA GOPs will get to that. Multiple states, multiple members in Congress all somehow connected into a grand conspiracy to undo the federal government. And indeed, think about it, the federal government is almost completely non-functional right now. Congress doesn't work, it can't be trusted. The Supreme Court doesn't work, it can't be trusted. Many states and they're all connected to the ultra-conservative movement in the country. Isn't that different? It is different, Jay, but we have only one person to really thank for that and that's Donald Trump. Donald Trump before he became the president of the United States, he remembers campaign about how he was going to fix the deep state, how he was going to drain the swamp. Well, in reality, Donald Trump became the swamp thing, not draining the swamp, but he's the one that filled the swamp. And, you know, you go from there, your MAGAs are a loyal bunch of latches and they're all hypnotized by the allure of Donald Trump and the cult member of Donald Trump. So I'm not surprised that we're at where we're at and yeah, this perhaps not anyone individual, but it does take one individual to grab the microphone and make it seem like it's one individual doing this. I'm thinking of Governor Abbott of Texas. He's been ordered to get rid of the floating red balls in the Rio Grande River. His quotation is, I'll see you at court, Mr. President. So someone grabs the microphone, it does seem like an individual, but it's a combination of a collective thought, a collective emotions, ideology versus politics based on policies and principles. And that's what we have with the GOP right now, unfortunately. I know the wide shock, but this reminds me of Yugoslavia. When Tito was running it and he wasn't necessarily a good person, he was an autocrat, he managed to keep down all of the people who would like to disrupt and destroy Czechoslovakia, rather Yugoslavia. And then one day he wasn't there and it all popped up. And I wonder if what we are talking about is simply a failure of leadership where we had JFK, he knew what to do, but now we don't have anybody who can stop it. And there are elements in this country that like to rebel, we know that. Tim has proven that to us. They like to rebel, they like to make trouble. They don't agree, they don't want the mantle of democratic control, if you will, of democratic society. So if you give them the chance, if you take away the control over them, they will emerge just like in Yugoslavia. What do you think? I think that's a great question because it points to the lack of what we did have, at least in the 60s, is we had some charismatic leaders of values and conscience. We have the MLKs and the RFKs and others. But together with that, the other side of that coin, which is in my view, even more essential, we had the mass mobilization. We had huge groups of demonstrators. We had the march on Washington. We had people together at the grassroots level, at the community level, who were both learning together, educating each other together, and taking stands and positions for those values and conscience factors that the charismatic leaders espouse. I think without both, you don't get anywhere. The leadership, clearly by itself, can't do it. So to me, the more critical missing element is the mass mobilization at the community level, at the grassroots level, who were the education, the speaking up, the speaking out, the defense of the values that bring us together and enable us to live with each other. That's what's missing. Yeah, that's a lot of elements you described there, let's try to break that down. Seems to me that Trump and his acolytes and the red states, people, and the magas and the freedom corpus in Congress what they're looking for. It's hard to accept this, because it seems so outrageous. What they're looking for is chaos. And there's a reason for people who look for chaos. It creates a vacuum, and they want to move into the vacuum. Okay, so if you have this large group of relatively powerful people in the country who know how to use the media, who are infiltrated into Congress and the Supreme Court, creating chaos, that's a vacuum that a guy like Trump can move into. More Trump has a cold figure than anyone else. What do you think about that, Tim? Well, yeah, exactly. And did Donald Trump create that? No, it's, like I said, it's history and creating chaos and contempt for the federal government. It's been going on for a long time, and it's a perfect wedge issue. It's a great, great way of getting votes that you can thumb your nose at the government. And even Ronald Reagan did it. He said, well, when the government knocks on your door and he says, we're here to hell, you better run. I mean, Ronald Reagan was great at poking fun at the federal government. And he ultimately got elected president because of doing so well at doing that. So yeah, I mean, Donald Trump filled the vacuum, but he certainly inflated it. He raised the temperature beyond, you know, the pot boiling and here we are. This election in 2024 is really an issue of a couple of things, but the primary one will is, will the republic survive? Will democracy survive or do we go to a new form of government with Donald Trump in his attempt and he will do it, become an autocracy, a fascist state, if you will. You're scaring me as you always do. So just as a digression, Chuck, what does a fascist state under Donald Trump look like? Well, actually he's spoken about that pretty extensively where he would essentially take over and put people who were under his control in all positions, he would dismantle and remove any organizations that were sufficiently resistant to him that he couldn't effectively control them. And another factor that really needs to be understood here is a key element, a foundational element of the MAGA GOP power, and status is non-accountability. And right now there are several judges who are in a position to at least manage the determination of that accountability, Judge Chutkin in DC, Judge McAfee in Georgia and Judge Kaplan in New York who have so far indicated that's how they see their job. They're there to render a factual and legal process that determines accountability according to the facts and the law. That may not happen in Georgia with Judge Kaplan, but there are three shots of legal accountability. If that accountability is enforced, a key leg of the MAGA GOP power falls. Oh, totally agree. However, I post this to you, Tim, the Trump who actually undermines a lot of federal agencies, hollowed them out so he could sort of take charge of their areas of operation during his term. He attacked law enforcement, and it hadn't occurred to me before this actual discussion. Then what he did to undermine the media is he encouraged the creation of the alternative media. That is, media would report which would report alternative facts. So how do you undermine the media? You create a second media, and now people don't know which media to listen to, and a lot of them listen to the wrong one. He attacked the media by encouraging Newsmax and Fox News and all those. So what we have is chaos in the media thanks almost directly to Trump. But what I wanna ask you to track off what Chuck was saying is, how certain can we be that there will be convictions, that there will be sentences that those will hold on appeal, and that Trump will be accountable in all of these four proceedings, and maybe more, and are coming soon. It is really scary to think that all of them could fall, but in a country which is so divided as we are, there is a suggestion that Trump would be able to beat all of them off somehow. What do you think? Well, I think that's probably the reason why Kevin McCarthy is trying to tink around with impeachment of President Biden. And Jay, for seven years, you and I talked about Trump and the great ability for his distraction ability. This is nothing more than a distraction. It's a silver object to take the attention off of these court hearings that you may see coming out of Alabama. What Donald Trump does best, and his whole candidacy from day one was based on lies. I'm thinking of the book from Al Franken and a quote from Samuel Clements, Mark Twain was lies, damn lies, and the people that tell him. And Donald Trump is that figure, and that he only gets power from it. And it doesn't matter what happens to him as far as 33% of this country, the MAGA GOP, no matter what, whether he's convicted or not, they'll still follow him. They'll follow him to the nth degree, just like Nazi Germany followed Hitler right to his grave. It's no different. I mean, the only thing that's gonna change Donald Trump's hold on 33% of this country is young voters coming to take the place of the old ones that are dying off. Hmm, you know, Chuck is aspirational. We sit here every week, almost every day of every week, thinking this generation is coming. And we have glimmers of light sometimes where they write books and make public statements and see it clearly. But the question is, are they that persuasive to the others? Are the others having the same thoughts? Will these young generation people vote? Or will they be confused by everything that is happening? But by the chaos that already exists, by the civil war that is already in place, by the dysfunctional federal government that we see emerging in front of us, are they really a great hope? That's a great question, Jay. I think the inference from Tim's insights is they have to be because that's our only source of hope, of something that can change the direction. Hey, and I go back to the idea that we can learn something from the 60s, not only charismatic leaders, which we lack now, but which that generation may be able to provide. And we hope they can. But also the mass mobilization. If that generation comes together, communicates, learns together, coalesces, reaches understandings together of what the important values and choices are for this country and for the communities and for themselves, then I think the choices are gonna be good ones. I have faith in that generation. And that's exactly what the MAGA guys are trying to prevent. They're trying to break down education. They're trying to break down learning. They're trying to break down the ability of people who are different and think differently, who see differently, to come together and to reach common understandings based on common values. And we speak almost every show about the media. We always have a media question. We always wanna look at what the media is doing or not doing, because we know that the media is another one of our hopes, our aspirational possibilities to save us. But how is the media doing? I find that the media that makes fun of Trump, there's a lot of humor about it. Humor is good. Derision is good. But is that doing the job? Right now I think the media is doing a great job on one avenue. And that's highlighting how climate change is causing all sorts of catastrophes, whether it be in Lahaina, Hawaii, or in Libya. You know, these events, the flooding and the wildfires, these are great examples of how this is abnormal climate behavior. And it is brought on as an indirect result of climate change. And I think the media is doing a great job. And I think that's what the younger generation is gonna focus on is that your generation, you baby boomers are messing up this world and we have to be stuck with it. And now we're gonna get involved. Just because of climate change alone, we have to get involved. And I think to go to Chuck's point is, unlike minds come together and coalesce over a common interest, a common goal. And I think climate change will be one of those central themes that we may see real change and extinguish the 33% MAGA GOP once and for all. It's gonna take a few years, maybe five years, but I think they're on the way out. That's a great point. Other things, you know, we always have to leave it with what other things could intervene and change everything that we think and talk and predict. But let me ask you one thing that, you know, that troubles me. I mentioned before that I think the legitimate media, the truth-telling media is now gotta deal with the other side of the coin, which is the media that doesn't tell the truth. And thanks to Trump and his friends, we have that. And they are influential with a number of people, especially in the hinterland. They effectively create the red state lawlessness we're talking about because they lie. But you know, there's another media that we haven't mentioned so far on this discussion and that is the social media. You know, Zuckerberg is still out of control. He does what he wants. He's a multi-billionaire. He's very powerful. He can lobby. Congress is nowhere near understanding exactly how to stop him or regulate him. And it doesn't even make the effort. It's really awful. At the same time, you know, don't forget Elon Musk, who again invited Trump to join or rejoin Twitter, who is a moral at best, and is a strange duck, if you will, and also involved in spreading lies. And people are five of millions to tens of millions relying on social media, especially including those young people we mentioned in the generation to come. They get their news. They get their thoughts. They get their view of the world on social media. And social media is often a stack of lies and misinformation and disinformation and so forth. So when we talk about the media, we always have to consider them also, don't you think? Oh, absolutely. And, you know, social media is the wild west of media. I mean, it hasn't been properly regulated. And, you know, we could have our discussions with First Amendment attorneys and you might know who I'm talking about. I would say, no, we don't regulate social media, but I think it's long overdue. There needs to be some basic guardrails on social media. And I think that's also is coming in the next couple of legislative sessions, maybe not this next one, but maybe the one thereafter. I think you're gonna see some laws passed that actually put a few guardrails up. But let's look at some of the traditional media. I mean, look at Fox. Hey, they got a huge hole in the bow of their boat and that was a direct result of Tucker Carlson and the denial of the 2020 election, you know, cakewalk they were taking, and that was exposed. They lost a huge lawsuit as a direct result of knowing what the truth was, but failing to report it for ratings, for advertisers. And I don't think the public's gonna forget that so easily. And I think that will linger for a bit, even though it's not in the headlines today and maybe not tomorrow, but that is an arc selective memory. And I think there's hope that people start examining where they get their news from, the source of where they get their news from, asking critical questions about their sources and remembering the ever famous line, alternative facts. Well, am I reading alternative facts today or not? So those questions I think with the millennials and Gen Z are gonna become more and more present. And at least I hope so. You know, Chuck, he mentioned all these various media and the lawsuit and all that, which a few weeks people will probably forget all of that, but you have stockholders, you have directors, you have people who have heavily invested in Fox News and Newsmax and the like and Sinclair radio and all that. Those organizations cannot exist without officers, directors, stockholders, investors, lenders, banks. Okay, those people are complicit, aren't they? They know that their client, so to speak, is lying to the public and spreading disinformation. And I include the social media, I include Zuckerberg's stockholders as well. And to the extent that the public is involved in, ex-Twitter, Elon Musk, them, and of course the banks. So it seems to me that it's not just the multi-billionaires who control this, it's the people who enable them by giving them funding, what do you think? Now, I think that's spot on. And I think the Dominion mediated settlement came about because the guy at the head of it, Rupert Murlach of Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, it was exposed. He was the one who was gonna take the public hit as well as a monetary hit if that thing went to trial from jurors. And that's why getting some of the choice-making back to the community level and away from leaders who can say, I know what my constituency wants, when they're doing exactly what the majority of their constituency do not want. Yeah. Abbott, Huckabee, DeSantis, the list goes on. Yeah, there's two things seem to be driving this wrong direction of us, of our country. You know, one is muddy on Wall Street, which often has no morality whatsoever. And the other is ignorant voters, which have no common sense whatsoever. And when you put that together, it's a dangerous brew and it allows for this lawlessness. And we need leadership, Tim, in order to set it straight. But, you know, it's not clear that we have leadership. It's not clear that the leadership in Congress is strong enough or the leadership, that extent you can have leadership in the Supreme Court is strong enough. It's not clear that the president and the administration include the leadership. You know, one digression point I wanna mention is that Trump did his level best to undermine the agencies of the federal government. And we are still waiting for Joe Biden to repopulate and reorganize those agencies so there is strong leadership there. And we haven't seen it. It hasn't been reported. We don't know about it. It hasn't happened. And so, in query, isn't national leadership one of the most important elements and the failure of national leadership one of the most important elements in allowing lawlessness, in not joyboating, not making a strong telephone call, not making a statement begins with, damn it, you guys have got to get on board. We are one country, stop that. We don't have that. So, query, do you agree with me that leadership at the federal level is the most important factor and we don't have it? Absolutely, it's the most important factor in our government. The executive branch is that leadership and members of Congress, the Senate, the House of Representatives, mayors and governors, that's all leadership and that sets the tone on how we move forward either with or without legislation. And let me tell you, we haven't had any legislation of really to speak of, you know, Joe Biden has his victories, yes, I'll give him that, but there are so many things about, you know, gun control and all these things, climate change, immigration, we're stymied, we're stuck in neutral. And I'm sorry to say this, but you know, I just said earlier in the show that 2024 may be a decision between democracy and or maybe fascism. I forgot to mention, are we almost not a plutocracy right now where corporate dollar influence has a Congress bought and paid for and that's why something's not getting done is not just the fight between democracy and autocracy. Plutocracy is also a major issue and, you know, this influence of money and how lobbyists win the day. And then let's throw in a little theocracy, how religion is influencing our politicians. So, you know, we got a whole witches' brew of theocracies and plutocracies and democracies and autocracies all in the pot. And it's time to get rid of all of them, except for one, that's democracy. Yeah, thank you, that's a great point. So, you know, Chuck, looking down the road here, first taking a snapshot of where we are, federal government is dysfunctional, non-functional and worse than that, people don't have any confidence. There's a vacuum out there and the vacuum leads to this kind of lawlessness. But there are things coming up. There are things that will further distract us from getting back on track. One of them is going to be funding the federal government. It's going to happen very quickly. This fight is going to happen very quickly where the Republicans say, well, we're not going to do the ordinary thing here. We're going to require you to capitulate to our crazy arguments. And until you do that, we are not going to fund the country, the government. And my favorite, my personal unfavorite is Tommy Tubaville. We're not going to pollute any military officers until you agree or you get the DOD to agree with our position on paying the expenses of women soldiers who would like to go to another state for an abortion, which has nothing to do at all with promoting officers. So what you have is this kind of hostage-taking, this kind of ransomware, which is also completely lawless. And I suggest to you, it's not just the funding of the federal government. It's a whole bunch of things like that, including this absurd attempt to impeach Joe Biden. And there'll be more. Between now and the elections in 2024, there will be absurdity upon absurdity, all distracting the government from doing its job and all distracting us. What do you think? Now, I think you've nailed it. And as you indicated along the way and in your intro, two critical elements for that to continue and expand, the chaos and the lack of accountability. Only with both of those can those people, the Gaetzes, the Boeberts, the Magas continue to exercise the level of influence and obstruction that they do. But if there is one thing that might possibly deter that, it has to be a generation of people who think for themselves who go to the ballot boxes and who make choices that change that leadership. The leadership is important, but the change has to come at the grassroots level, at the community level, at the mass mobilization level. We're about out of time, Tim. So think about what you might leave with our viewers today. And maybe you'll also include the question of whether Joe Biden, for the benefit of the country, should not run for another term. It was no great favor to us that Ruth Bader Ginsburg held on until she allowed Mitch McConnell to replace her with a right-wing judge. And maybe it's the wrong thing for Biden to keep on plunging ahead instead of standing aside for a younger, more vital Democrat. What do you think? Yeah, well, Mitt Romney just got off the public address, seeing the very same thing is it's time to step down for all sorts of politicians that have reached a certain age and let Gen Z and let the millennials in, let Jane X come up and start making policies that make sense to improve this country and let's get out of the tit-for-tat insults across the aisle and getting nothing done. I distinctly remember John McCain on the Senate floor before he died and he said, we're not getting anything done. And God, was that true? Even after his death, it's true, nothing's getting done. So I always say, don't make laws, don't make rules if you're not willing to enforce them. And the basis of this show was those states that are thumbing the law to federal government, specifically Alabama thumbing their nose at the Supreme Court decision to redistrict their voting districts. And I don't care if it's condo associations, city laws, state law, parish law, et cetera law. If you're not willing to enforce the laws on the books that preserve this democracy, don't make the rules, get rid of them. And we'll live in a state of chaos. But as long as the rules are on the book, then let's enforce them and let's keep the civil order in place and let's get something done. No kidding, you cannot afford to live in the Lord of the Flies. So Chuck, what are your vital comments you'd like to leave without viewers? I think one of the impressions from this whole discussion is that there needs to be a really broad multi-generational, multi-partisan commitment to accountability for values. That if that happens, there may be results at the ballot box that give us hope for change. Okay, I'd like to leave you with one thought. Democracy and the possibilities of representative of government in democracy were never as strong as after World War II. When 20 million people were killed, and fascism had to be snuffed by virtue of a World War. And it may just be, gentlemen, something we could discuss at a later time. It may just be that the thing that has to happen here in the context of humanity and the human condition and the flaws of humanity is a huge disruptive event, sort of like Tim was talking about in climate change or in a World War, which millions and millions of people are killed, and don't know the answer, but I know it's not easy. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Tim Apichela, co-host, Chuck Crumpton, esteemed, very esteemed guest. Thank you so much. Aloha. Aloha. Aloha.