 I have to say, before we begin, all my favorite people are here, all of them, in one room, including Jerry. So this is an auspicious event. So I do want to thank the Cooper Hewitt and Rookie and Cara and Kim for having us here and all the work that they've done to get us here and make us so comfortable. So we're here today to celebrate Jerry and her lifetime of quite remarkable creative production. So Kat Katmere, who is unfortunately at her sister's wedding, not unfortunate for her, unfortunate for me, because it's usually the road show is the three of us. We call it our great dog and pony show. So Kat and I, with two other special guests here, Diana Murphy and Jordan Steingart, started this project together. It seemed to us that recognition of Jerry among design iconoclasts had gone missing. We wanted to put Jerry back in the public eye, where she definitely belonged. We went through a treasure trove of work, drawings, sketches, models, photos, publications and letters that luckily Jerry had held onto. Fabrics, lots of fabrics, clothing that somebody modeled. So here's the book right here. So the book is 224 page volume, brimming with images, organized into three sections. So the first section, early years, covers her education in Memphis, followed by MFA studies at Cranbrook Academy of Art, where she was immersed in an ethos of design without disciplinary boundaries. It also includes the beginnings of her career in the styling division of General Motors and her move to Los Angeles to become director of interiors at Victor Gruen Associates. Section two focuses on the main part of Jerry's career. It starts in 1964 when Jerry formed her office, Jerry Kavanaugh Designs, in a studio space that she shared with architect Frank Gehry and Greg Walsh. It includes the multitude of diverse projects that she undertook from store interiors, offices and residences, textiles and papers, wrapping papers, furniture, exhibitions, toys and products to graphics and so much more. Third and final section, Jerry's world, chairs her more personal work, the delightful handcrafted objects, her own homes that were playgrounds for ideas, and finally her stunningly beautiful and colorful still life drawings. Throughout the book are lively anecdotes from those who have worked with Jerry and have often become lifelong friends. Their stories help to give the readers a better sense of Jerry's indomitable personality. Also included throughout the book are few of the many, many articles about Jerry and her work, including ones that appeared in the LA Times, House Beautiful and Cosmopolitan, as well as interiors and Women's Square Daily. Adding fun and flair throughout the book are numerous delightful photographs of her many huge personality. So that's the book, but as we have Jerry here today, we have a great opportunity to talk to her about some particular areas of her work and some dominant motifs. So what we're going to talk about today is interiors, textiles and papers, vernaculars and craft, and finally flowers and nature. Behind us there'll be a looping slideshow of images, so if you miss something it'll come back around. The presentation and discussion will be about 40 minutes and then we'll have about 10 minutes or so for your questions. So save those up. So we'll start off with interiors. In 1952 you joined General Motors. Your work there included designing trade shows and model kitchens for Frigidaire. Then in 1960 you moved to Los Angeles to become head of interiors at Victor Gruen Associates, as I just mentioned. It was there that you were introduced to the culturally momentous Joseph Magnon stores, known for shifting the shopping experience as you put it from chic chic to chic fun. In 1964 you went on to form your own office, Jerry Kavanaugh Designs, designing even more Magnon stores as well as residential and office interiors, among so many other things. You've described the period to me from the 50s to the 1970s or so. When you did this work as a particularly wondrous period for design, just one example is the project that you did for GM's feminine auto show. The exhibit there you put 100 live canaries in net towers. So that seems pretty magical. So can you describe why this period was so remarkable for you? Well, it was a remarkable time in our country and it was a remarkable time in Detroit where really part of modernism started and that was because of Cranbrook. Associated with that was the Sarinan office, the Victor Gruen office and the Yamazaki office and the Detroit Art Institute plus Alexander Charard doing work out in Grosspoint and forming his own office. I just thought that was the normal world. Now I'm serious about it but it was very lively and there was a lot of exchange among these offices and there was such a curious audacity about it and you wanted to know what everyone else was doing. And you followed up on it. Besides, there were a lot of interesting folk art stores at the time. And of course this was all sort of paved away by Alexander Charard living in Grosspoint and establishing his own office. But then he also worked for Sarinan so there was an interplay of these different offices. And the Gruen office who really invented the shopping center produced so many jobs for people. I think half a town and half a Los Angeles supported people by shopping center. It was very innovative and a lot of innovative work that then spun off into major planning work. And this was all interlaced with Yamazaki's office, Sarinan's office and even the General Motors Tech Center which a friend of mine here has recently designed a book or written a book and it's coming out in September. And it's called Well The World Tomorrow Meets Today. And so I encourage you all to buy it. But that was the flavor of what was happening at the time. And I don't know of another area in the country where this was happening. So my next question was actually going to be about the difference in the design scenes between Los Angeles, Detroit and New York. Yes. Do you want to say something about that? Well, you see I got criticism from people saying that I was going out to the West Coast and I was going to be working sort of for the enemy. They were crazy and they thought most of the people back here, I'm sorry to say, thought the West Coast was sort of next to China because of the cartoon that was in the New Yorker about it. But it has now changed and people now want to come out and we say, please don't come out. We're too crowded. So how would you describe what the differences were between Los Angeles, Detroit and New York? Well, there was a permit in the Detroit area that I don't think has ever been replaced. The New York area was sort of like, I'll tell you a funny experience that I had. And that was there was the head of UCLA was Franklin Murphy, who was a real mover and shaker in the LAC when this is after, this is way after I didn't have anything to do with it. But one day I saw Franklin in the sculpture garden at UCLA because I was walking my dogs. And I knew him and through Hallmark because he was on the board of Hallmark, which I did a lot of work for it one time. And I said, Franklin, what's the matter? You look really gross and you're grumpy. And he says, it's that goddamn track thinking. And I looked at him and I said, what do you mean by track thinking? He said, oh, yes, you do. It's Boston, New York, Washington, Philadelphia. And it's all they can think is on that track and nothing else. And I understood that because then I use that in lectures in relationship to color because I grew up in the South. And that was a different viewpoint. And also I knew a lot of people in Chicago. And that was industrial thinking. And you come out across the West and you go over the mountains and you came to the West Coast. And it was a freer time of thinking. And as I talked at a conference several years ago with my dinner partner, and it was one of Neutra's sons. And I asked him what he thought was the difference. And he said the West Coast was more flexible. And I still think that. I would agree with you. More flexible. So you would also kind of set up this next question, Jerry, which is about the other thing you and I have talked about was about retail design. And you had mentioned to me that you and a few others, including Frank Gehry, actually found retail design exciting where a lot of designers look down their nose at it. Well, that was retail. And there was goes back to an old English term, that's trade. And that was a bunch of nonsense. As far as I was concerned, and a bunch of nonsense for some of the people that I knew and certainly was for the Grongan organization, what they did. So what was exciting about it? It was there were more things that were looser in one sense. Not bad, but looser in thinking and experimental. It wasn't what I call box thinking. And there was a lot of box thinking. And in some ways it was good. In some ways it was bad. And that was because of the Eastern schools of thinking. And I mean that at Yale Harvard and MIT. And that was all out of a certain kind of what I call box thinking. And particularly with color, and this is what my human cries today, is that it's not taught in architectural schools at all. And so architects grow up with white construction paper, corrugated cardboard, black paper, and maybe have few textures. And that's it. And I mean, invariably, if I get a lecture, they say, oh, some architectural researchers, they say, what's the best system for working in color? And I say, yes. So Jerry, we're going to go on to this next section here. We're going to talk about textiles and papers. So you started working with textiles and papers when you were quite young. And your devotion to textiles and papers has lasted throughout your career. In the mid-70s, you started your own line of textiles. How did you decide to start Geraldine Fabrics? Where did the ideas for the different patterns come from? Well, the I, M, and I go oranges, which we showed. I lived in the country of oranges. And I have an orange tree in my own backyard. A lot of people have orange trees, avocado trees, lemon trees. So I tried to develop it based on things that were sort of indigenous to the area. So the patterns that are in this line, that's where they came from. So how did you imagine they'd be used? Well, that's easy. I mean, there are some any ways that you can use them. And that was the idea that each person and potter could use it in an inspirational kind of way. It would inspire them to do it because they were lively and colorful. And when I came to Southern California, I was overwhelmed with color because you would see whole mountains in yellow. You would see whole mountains in lupin, open truth. And so that impressed me very, very much in relation. An ice plant. I've never seen an ice plant before. But there is now a term called highway ice plant pink. Yeah. It's this very fluorescent pink. Yeah. So when it's in bloom, you're just like everything is glowing. Yeah. And you'd see a cascading of down a mountain. I never saw a color like that back here or in the south. I saw a lot of cotton because I was raised in cotton. But that was all white. But to come to California and see masses, I mean, mountains of it just overwhelmingly. So one particularly significant and long-term client was Isabel Scott fabrics. Yeah. Here we go with some of the Geraldine fabrics. So you started working for them in the late 50s. And your most significant project for them was the Corio silk line of e-cat fabrics that you developed in the late 1960s in South Korea. It was a really complex project. Not only did you design the e-cats, but you were also involved in setting up the factory that would produce the special weaving technique. Can you describe how unusual this project was? Well, to me, it wasn't unusual. It was just the way my mind thought and the challenge that was presented to me. And so I took up the challenge. And I had a very good, interesting time. I even got to play the palace in Seoul. And that was the Korean prince. And princess lived in the palace. And he was a prince who had to work to support his grandmother's ladies in waiting. I'm not kidding on this. And he was an architect. And he was under... Well, first of all, I'm getting off on too many other stories, but the experience of Corio silk, which is one of the patterns called Chuncheon mountains. And the mountains in Chuncheon went like this, like that, out of the ground. And that was something I based one of the designs on. Then there was Magpion. I was so overwhelmed at seeing Korean ceramics, because I had been brought up basically on Japanese ceramics. But then I began to see Korean ceramics. And I said, well, I know where they got it in Japan. It was from the Koreans. And there is one to design Magpion that's based on... And then there was... Chevron was based on some paintings on a ceiling in a temple. So it all fitted in. And Corio clouds was based on a badge. Because the Koreans wore badges to describe what they did. This was in the government. I keep getting this. I don't mean to. I can't help talking with my hands. Yes. Anyhow, it all was on that. And it was a fabulously interesting experience, because even with color, like there was one yellow that was based on a plant that blooms in the spring. And it also blooms in the south. And I based a whole part of the color line on that yellow. But you had to... I'm just so curious about having to set up the production so that it could do the e-cap. Well, that was my secret. Oh, I see. We're not going to hear about it. It really is my secret, because nobody has done it. And it might be revived again in the Philippines. I'm hanging by my eyelashes. Because there is a lady who was from the Bay Area, and she came across by herself. And the Corio silks. And the equipment was sold to from this Korean to another Korean to another Korean. Then she bought it and took it to the Philippines. And she is now in the process of setting up a factory outside of Manila. And if that gets done, there will be a revival of some of those prints. That would be remarkable. It would be remarkable. I shouldn't even be telling you this, because I'm superstitious. So the other thing I wanted to ask you about, Jerry, is something I think you've also talked about, which is that using fabrics, and I'm assuming wallpaper as well, architecturally, can you talk about how you've thought about them and used them to change a space? And, well, we've been doing this for eternity. As long as it's been there, it's been fabrics. You know, there was somebody recently who was telling me about an incoming exhibition about the interiors of pyramids. And they were full of textiles. Because textiles were also a symbol of wealth because it took so much to do and make them. They're not tried by any means whatsoever. The process of doing textiles in Dorothy of Noel is here. And she could tell you oodles about that. And it's very interesting. It is not just a piece of fabric. It's much more than that. If you know the process, you would not have that attitude. It's a miracle. Not only a miracle. It's one of the heights of civilization is textiles. If you think of the Peruvian textiles, the Andes textiles, and other textiles throughout the world, they're ingenious. And they now know that the textiles, the development of textiles, predates the Bronze Age. Because they have found evidence of it in fabric merged in clay. And there's a lady who's formerly connected with Occidental who's done a lot of research on that. Fascinating. It is fascinating. It is so fascinating. And you're a wealth of knowledge, Jerry. I love that in color. And there's so much in relationship in the history of color. How color changed from a gray world to a bright world. And how Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth commissioned the Buccaneers to not steal gold, but to steal heartwood from what we know as the British Honduras. Because the center of heartwood is a very red bark. And it was a stable red that could reach England. If that goes along with Coach Neal. And vegetables. That's another thing. Which people are reviving. It's interesting. It's very interesting. I'm very interested now right now in doing avocado pink. You wouldn't think of avocados being associated with pink. I want to see that. Yeah. Well, I've been playing with it with a neighbor of mine. And so I'll say, save your avocado seeds, please, for me. So Jerry, I want to ask you about something that you also mentioned at the beginning. Which is vernacular and folk. So you have a passion for vernacular design. The language of the everyday. And what's been referred to as folk art. More complex. The passion. This passion was the subject of Home Sweet Home. American domestic vernacular architecture. An exhibition that was conceived by you and co-curated with the architect Charles Moore. Charles Moore. Yes. You also designed the exhibition Islands in the Land. Which featured the traditional objects of Appalachia. And the Rio Grande Valley of New Mexico. Your home is also chock full of folk collections. And many of the products you've made seem inspired by handcraft and by folk. So first of all, can you describe the difference between works of design, craft, and folk? In your opinion, is there a difference? No, I don't see any really difference. And one of the things that really sort of tied this all together was last year, in the New York Times, it was January 8th, there was a review of a book called Craft C-R-A-E-F-T. That's the original spelling. It has degenerated down to sort of, I hate them, is a sort of macrame wall hanging that came out during the hippie period. But it's not, it means making the very best. And a lot of what you call folk art is making the very best out of what is available. So it's not itsy-bitsy crafty stuff at all. It has a much higher meaning. And when my study of vernacular architecture, when you see the processes of how some of the buildings were built, because it was just what was available and they made the best out of it, that's craft. So you mentioned your childhood, which is when it seems like this love of vernacular started. So you've talked about like noticing things in your neighborhood in Memphis, the way homes were built. So can you talk about the things that you... Well, I designed a chair which I have not really successfully gotten anyone to produce it, but it's based on the details of the neighborhood that I lived in in Los Angeles, which was built in 1886. And they were all either craftsmen houses or pattern bookhouses. And this is the details of that chair. So it had a strong influence. And some of it is just a vernacular architecture. Sorry, I didn't continue more with that because every once in a while, I'll find something that's really interesting that I didn't know about when I was doing the exhibition with Charles Morton. We did do a book on the exhibition, which was in 13 different vineyards in Los Angeles. And Ridsotley published our book on it through the Craft and Folk Art Museum. And it sold out in six months. And but Ridsotley would not give us that to go into the second printing because they did not want to give us the same royalty, so it didn't get published. And now it's a collector's item. So that show is really remarkable. Can you talk about the role of the different individual exhibitions? And then there was the conference at UCLA. Yes, we had a symposium. It's sort of like we put out the word and people wanted to do certain sections of it. There was the front porch, which the front porch really is an American vernacular situation. It stemmed out of the so-called the work porches, but on classical buildings with the columns, and there was a little space in between. But in this country, it developed to be the front porch. And the front porch to me is a fabulous communication place because if you live in an area that has a front porch and you walk, this is in my neighborhood, you sit and you talk or you stop and talk with people on your front porch. It's more than just a piece of architecture, it's a means of communication. So a few things that I do want to mention about this show. So it's back behind us here. So it included things like the kinds of like playhouses that children build and all the weird things that we especially see in Los Angeles done with Stucco. Yeah. So here are more images, the children's architecture over here and one of these odd homes with turrets that we find in Los Angeles. So I guess I want to know about what these individual shows were that were taking place. Well, one of them was this one and this was, oh no, that's some other exhibition. Yeah. Well, it goes back to sort of like it's almost a car mentality in the aspect that you're free to do anything. That's actually what the car symbolizes in Southern California. You can go anywhere nobody stops you. We didn't have a subway system like you all had earlier. Or Paris. Paris had a subway system way, way before anybody else. But were each of these exhibitions different? Yes, each one of them was different. And we brought in people from many disciplines to talk about the existence of the symposium at UCLA. We didn't get to document it like we wanted to because there wasn't enough funds around, which is typical of a lot of exhibitions where it wasn't enough. And nor was there mentality for people to understand why we needed money to develop it. So the Islands in the Land exhibition. So this is the, you want to describe that briefly. And then talk about what you wanted people to take away from that exhibition. What do you mean take away? So when they saw these very beautiful artifacts, what did you want people to think about or know? Well, it was really based on a book called Islands of the Land. And it was, and I can't think of this name right now. Carrie McWilliam said who it was. And Eudora Moore took that idea and took it to Appalachia area. And the Pueblos is two separate places, which had a lot of artifacts done by artisans. And the Smithsonian had a lot of things that she borrowed. We, it was an exhibition of over 1,300 square feet, no, 313 comma, oh, oh, oh, oh. Square feet, whole wing of the Pasadena Museum. And there was about 2,000 objects in the show. And they were from the Pueblos and the Appalachia. And those things were, again, made out of something that was valuable and made beautiful. It's the same way in cooking. It's not much different. You find the best way to do a cucumber soup, because that's what you had, you know. It's an ingenuity. So, Jerry, we're going to go on to our last section here on flowers in nature. So you've done a number of projects in which, oh, so flowers in nature have been a motif in your work from the beginning. They dominate both your professional and personal work. Coincidentally, all this work also shows your accomplishment in a wide and vast range of media from textiles, books, illustrations, mosaic murals, sculptural elements, wallpapers, rugs, applique, painting, that's up here. You can see it there. So you've done a number of projects in which you've supersized creatures, birds, flowers, butterflies. So what's the magical fantastical world that you're imagining these objects in? I never know until I start it. But it's going to turn out I get an idea, and then I start sort of developing it. And I just can't help it. The zinnias of that table really relate to being at my cousin's place in Arkansas. We're in the summertime along one of the fences. My uncle insisted that we plant zinnias. And that was our job as kids to make bouquets in the house of zinnias. Yeah. And so it was things stuck in my head. I can't help it. It just sticks in my head. And I feel like I want to do something. And sometimes I just feel like I'm sort of like a conduit, or I don't know who it is. But it seems like there's an incredible amount of joy in making nature supersize. Well, I have a good time. I like what I do. We can tell. Yeah, I really like it. And sometimes it's like, well, what are you going to do when you retire? And I look at them retire. No, no way. There's too many good things to do. I just hope I live long enough to do them all. And even at that, I'll probably be saying, wait, one more time. Yes. So that's a good lead into my next question, which is, you've worked in so many media, like you'll do anything, you know. And sometimes you're working in collaboration with others. Yeah. Sometimes you're making the things yourself. And so I wanted to know about the Kutzwa that this takes to feel like you can do anything. Well, I don't care necessarily if everybody receives it. I just have to do it. And I say to students all the time, if you have an idea, do it. Because eventually you might have to wait five, 10 or 20 years. Somebody will come around and recognize. But just do it. Work. So can you talk about, you know, how you sort of like would figure things out or you'd figure out who to work with? No, I just sort of like in a way, I'll read anything. I'll read a soup again to figure out something. But it'll stay with me. And I just, in a lot of ways, I remember too many things. But it's memory and curiosity. I think the best thing for a designer is to, an artist is to have curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a very interesting word when you get into it. Is there, is there anything that you started to get into and you felt like you were in too deep? No. It's sort of like, if you do, it's sort of like cooking. If it doesn't work, you throw it away or it goes down a garbage disposal. But you just, you know, and you nobody has to know about it. Let's reset that. So some of the, but you have done a lot of things. Some of the things that you've done have been commissions. Yeah. And some of the things you've just instigated yourself. So was like, what gave you the sense that you could like put your own resources forward? And I know with the textiles that you did, Geraldine Fabrics, that that wasn't a financial success. But how was it successful for you? The things that you've done independent. It's been successful to me later, but it's taken 30 years. I mean, like it wound up at the beginning of this lecture. It's now in the Cooper Hewitt. That gives me great pleasure to say, okay, I really wasn't wrong. And somebody finally recognized it. And so, and I'm sure that happened to a lot of scribes. Doing an illumination of books, you know, but we don't know about that because nobody left us any notes. But there's, I think, a lot of that in the world. So here's the question, Jerry, and this will be my final question. Then we can open it up for other people's questions. So when you sum up your entire career, what do you feel are your most important contributions? That's a hard one, but I kind of sum it up in a way when my father first took me to art school when I was eight years old. And he said to me, I don't expect you to do anything with this, but I do expect your life to be enriched, and it has. It's been enriched in many, many ways. And a lot of the people in this room, I am grateful that they were in my life to help me enrich it. Thank you, Jerry. That's a good way to end our conversation. But Jerry, do you want to mention some of the women who were in Los Angeles? Well, there are five women that should be written about one is June Wayne who started the Tamron Workshop. It was the most successful of the Ford Foundation grants, and she revived lithography. There was Edith Wiley who started the Craft and Folk Art Museum, which is now called Contemporary Craft Museum. There was Eudora Moore who was very much instrumental in California design, and there are, I think, six or eight books that are still out on California design, and the two, what we call the Black Bandits or the Crazy Ladies of Los Angeles. And that was Sister Carita and Sister Magdalene Mary. And these women, five, six women, and there was another one, Pat Altman, who was one of the brains of LA, but nobody wrote about them. And somebody should do it. You don't take a lot of work because there are not very many of us left that can tell the stories. And one who's recently departed is Deborah Sussman. Yes, Deborah. I'll tell you a funny story on that, and this would answer your question, is that when I first came to Los Angeles, I knew of Deborah, and I was invited to an opening at the Herman Miller Showroom. At that time, you could have put the whole design community in the Herman Miller Showroom. Somebody came up to me and said, where do you work? And no, they asked me where I was. And they said, what company I work for? And I told them, Picture Girl, and then they asked me, well, what do you do? And I said, well, I'm a designer. And he said to me, oh, you're a girl designer. There's another girl designer on the other side of the room. It was Deborah Sussman. And he took me there, and Deborah and I were friends until she left us. Yeah. Yeah, and I just want to also quickly mention that Victor Gruen Associates was a very forward company that he hired women. He hired people of color. So it was quite remarkable. And I think that that's also a story to be told. Yeah, it is a story to be told. It's a good story. And we had a hell of a lot of fun in that office. One time, Carl and Louvin went out and bought, at that time, Sactresses and the few females that had to wear the Sactresses. It was a Jersey thing you put over, and it was called a Sactress. But there were things like, and then I could go on and on about it. It was a really unique office and smart and influential. I wonder if you could talk about your relationship with the Magnin family. Your relationship with the Magnins, how did you seem to really click, and this was a big part of your work? How did you connect with the Magnins? I was lucky when I went to Gruen. I was told that there were two accounts that I couldn't work on. One was Joseph Magnins and Nordstrom. And I felt like, okay, it's their company. I'll just do what they say. I'll have a good time anyway. So I was there about a year when Rudy Baumfeld, who really became my mentor. He used to call me his Wal-Haw daughter, daughter of my choice, gave me these drawings of the second floor of Joseph Magnins. And he wanted me to develop them. And so I did. And I got through with them and he said, okay, you go up and sell it. And I was so overwhelmed. I thought that to me early age, that was pretty overwhelming. And I did go up with the drawings under my arm. And I coincidentally met on the elevator, the daughter of Cyril Magnin. And I didn't know it was Ellen Magnin Newman at the time. And I thought, well, she looks important. And so I asked her if she knew where Mr. Newman's office was. And she smiled and she said, follow me. And I did. She sat down. I sat down and the secretary about 10 minutes later ushered me into Mr. Newman's office. And there was the lady that I rode up on the elevator with. And somehow Ellen and I became instant friends. And I tried to talk to Ellen every Sunday today on the phone. But I am so, it's more than grateful. It's something else that I became so much involved with the Magnin family that it was a way of life and education. And one of the Magnins is here today. And I am thrilled to death about that. But it was a unique place with a recognized challenge. And Andy Warhol did shoe drawings for them. Rudy Gernrich did work for them. Some of the innovative graphics were done by Margaret Parson. And there I could go on and on. But they were very receptive to innovation. And so that's how I became involved with them. And so I wound up staying with them all the time up there. Those are the best clients that are also friends. They become my San Francisco family. And I wasn't pushy about it. It is one of those things that evolved. Another question? I wish there were other shows of Magnins today. Yes. And now we just heard that Barney's is filed chapter. Well, it seems to Magnins was free parties. Yeah, free parties. Hi. It's a long question. But you see, you really, you've been very influenced by nature and flour. So the first part of my question is, what is your favorite, your favorite flower? The second one is, have you incorporated that flower within your work? And the third part of the question is, how many times have you incorporated, no, have you incorporated that flower multiple times throughout your career? And in what way? Undone. So favorite flower, have you used it? How have you incorporated it in your work? Yes, I got my papers. So who doesn't? No, but what's a favorite? I don't have a favorite. I really don't. Because if you look at it, you can always find some way to work around it. To work and develop, not work around and develop it. At one point, I think that Kat and I were putting together a series of images and we kept finding the daisy motif over and over again. Well, it's easy to draw. It's easy. I don't like to draw anything. I wish I could get back to drawing. It seems to me you draw all the time, Jerry. Well, I couldn't do better. But you're somebody who, as soon as you have an idea, you sketch that. Yes, I do. And the sketches are always beautiful in and of themselves. I'd really like to draw because that's an extension of this that goes down to here and then into the pencil. It doesn't act the same way with the computer. I like a lot of research on the computer. There's no question about that. But that ties in to looking at books, going like this. Network this, finding something else. Any questions? So you've realized, sorry. I know that you've witnessed a lot of different waves of feminism. And I wanted to know how your work spoke to that. And also, what advice would you give to a designer that's entering a male-dominated field? I can't hear you, so I don't know what you said, and I'm sure it's interesting. So I know that. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me better? Can you hear me better? Okay. Okay. So I know that you've witnessed a lot of different waves of feminism, and I wanted to know how your work spoke to that. And I also wanted to know what advice you would give to a designer entering a male-dominated field. Work, work, work. Yes. Everybody asked me that question, and it's just work. It's fun. It's strength, it's your mind, do you think? So just work. But I actually want to know the answer to this about when you were observing these different waves of feminism, how did you observe them? So you've experienced the first, what's called the first wave, the second wave, now the third wave. So were you participating in that? I did participate for a while, and I'll tell you a funny story. I'm very early on in it. I met Gloria Steinem. And I was invited to one of her first fundraisers and sat across from her, and she told me that they were going to call the magazine Miss. And I looked at her. This is not racism, please understand. I said, I was called Miss Jerry from the time I was six years old. What a crazy way to raise a magazine. But she said they will keep it. And good for her because she has made a tent, a good tent. And I think a lot of the younger people always want something that they want to protest against. You've got the world laid out in front of you, more than what we did. We didn't even know about feminism. We just did it. But what point did you, you, we've talked about that you knew that you were not being paid the same measure amount. I found that out very early on. Yeah. I was not being paid the same amount. I was being paid. Did you say anything? And I was also told later on when I started my own business that I did not. And but these were people later on I didn't deal with. Said, well, you don't need to be paid as much because you don't have responsibility. I was supporting my mother at the time. But that is what I call the sin of assumption. It's it's the biggest sin in the world is assuming something happened and it didn't, you know. So but I did need it. Yeah. Did you march? No, I've never really marched because now I couldn't do it if I wanted to. I'd have to be pushing something. But I've been outspoken about it, you know. And I think just by doing what I do has helped. And also I was lucky in that I got support very early on from. And they were usually from couples that were in the design business or merchandise world that the husband knew they were going to get supper when they got home. Yeah. And that may sound funny, but it's not. And so there was this camaraderie that existed between them and they sort of brought me into it. And so I was lucky in that way of not being dominated just by one kind of set of males. I was lucky to get commissions from couples. Right. You were you worked for women owned businesses. Yes, I did. Yeah. So Ellen Magna Newman, the Holland Levine, the advertising agency and Isabelle Scott, all women owned businesses. Yep, in the Magna family, the men and the women were all equal. Very cool. Yeah. Her mother certainly was. And her father was one of the movers and chakers of the accessory world. No, I'm not kidding. It was and it started over some porcelain drawers of the English toffee put on the glove compartment counter. That's how it started. I don't know whether she knows that or not. So, Jerry, we're going to thank you. Well, I thank you all for coming. It's really a new thing in so many ways. It's it's been like a reel of my life of remembering things that I had completely forgotten this whole experience of on the book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what a great group. Thank you all so much for coming. Thank you.