 Thank you very much indeed for that. So, first of all, I am delighted to be here talking to Ru calendar. Ru, the Guardian described you as Britain's best known eco-friendly funeral director, but I'm aware you don't use that term to talk about yourself. So, what is a radical undertaker? A radical undertaker? I mean, just to reference that Guardian thing, I've chosen a profession in which it's quite easy to stand out. Felly, rwy'n credu i weld ei weld ychydig yn popstar. Rwy'n cael ei gael ein gweld i'r ac yn cyfrifio raddicol. Rwy'n credu bod rwy'n credu'r eich gweld i'r termogol oherwydd rwy'n credu'r termogol. Rwy'n credu yw Patriarchal. Rwy'n credu'r termogol i'r gweld i'r gweld i'r gweld i'r termogol. diogelio am amddangos, wedi cael y gweld, ac mae'n biasio os yw'r uncertainty o bryd. Mae'n bwysig bod yn cael y cyd-fawr. Mae'n bwysig i chi i chi gael cyd-fawr sydd wedi'i gael y cyd-fawr. Ac, dha i, maenai'r gweithgaf iawn , mae rhywbeth yma'r cuno yn ôl ei fawr o'r barhau o'r lle o'r lle maen nhw, diogelio, Eisteddon, cyfnodol sylwgr, i'w ddiwrnod i'r cyfnodol yw'r cyfnodol, i'w ddiwrnod fel y Llyfr Gweithreid, i'w ddysgu'r cwrddai'u cynyddu. Mae'r cyfnodol yn sefydlu i'r cyfnodol? Mae'r cyfnodol yn sefydlu i'r cyfnodol. Mae'r cyfnodol. Ie, mae'n fudd i'r rhaid i'r llai. Mae'n rhaid i'r llai. Mae'n ddigonio y ddarlunio llai. Mae'r ddarlunio llai i ni wedi'i cram ar yllafol, a'i'r llai i'r drannu, a'i'r llai i'r cram, a'i'r llai i'r llai i'r llai i'ch bod ni'n trwng yn ymlaes. Mae'r ddarlunio llai i ni wedi'i cram ar yr llai. A'r ddigonio llai i ni wedi'i cram i'r llai, Gwydai chi'n gweithio chefnol iawn tynaf mwy i'ch cwm Ffundle? Felly ar gyfer Fyffordd, y ffordd, a'r Ddechgynch Cymru wedi bod yn gyfer y Ffundle yma, ac rydyn ni'n bwysig eich nodi am i ag i gael, a'r gofodd o'r ddechrau. Rydyn ni'n gofodd, y tro ei ddweud ei ddechrau imbryd yn gweithio a'r dweud i gael. Ac rydyn ni'n gafodd y began o'r falch, ac rydyn ni'n gafodd y budwedd ar y llyfr dradw. Rydyn ni'n gafodd y babwysgol, oeddau'r llyfr yn gwisbog y gŵr, ac yn gwisbwysgei'r grann Ie MS. Rydyn ni'n gafodd y gŵr, ac rydyn ni'n gafodd ei bod yn gwaith. Rydyn ni'n gafoddreth ar y llyfr ac mae wedi gwirio'r hyffordd. Rydyn ni'n gafodd y babwysgol, Mae'r hyn oedd yn gweithio y cyfnod Nicolaas Albury, sy'n dweud 21 lle rhai dweud yn ymgyrch, sy'n dweud yngweliad dros y Cymru. Mae'n dydd i'n gweithio'r gwybod ymddangos ymddangos cyfnodol. Mae'n gweithio'r gwybod sy'n meddwlau ac mae'r gwybod ei ddweud yn gwneud. Mae'n ddweud ymddangos chi ddweud ymddangos yn cael ei ddweud. Dyna'r gwybod o'r meddwl yn ysgarfennol yn gwneud o'r meddwl. Rwy'n meddwl y bydw i'r tyn. Rydyn ni'n meddwl gwaith, dwi'n meddwl ar y Gwyrdd Janrett, mae'r gweithio'r ramblers. Rwy'n meddwl, mae'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio'r gweithio yn ystyried i'r cyfwyr yn ei wneud a gwaith i gydag mewn tuaddu. Rwy'n meddwl gweithio'r gweithio'r ramblers. Rwy'n meddwl gweithio'r wneud i'r funerals i ddefnyddio'r bwysig o'r bwysig i'r cherddau. ac bydd gyrfa i Diolch yn dweud ein pellw cry Поeddoedd a fyddechrau'r ddechrau. Fe fyddwn ni'n gynnig o fypwyr Fyreiddoedd, a byddwn ni'n gynnig o fwyllgor hanor, wedi gyrfa'i ffwnerau, ac yn ystod ychydig ran ymddi cwrdd i mewn hwn, yn Llywodraeth rydw i ddweud. acaba'r spanylion arda, ac mae gennym hyrcaf yr unangol yn ganadol o'r lefnod y Syllwyr. A pof yn dweud? Byrni'n daleth yma'r lefnod hyn. became from that very much this kind of culture where its sort of peer to peer training and you don't have to go to the authorities to find out how to do stuff you just meet someone who's clever who will tell you how to do stuff. And work it out as you go along? Absolutely. So who were the first people that trusted you, yourself taught? You're not just an established family of funeral directors? ond yn ôl iawn i'r pethau, ymlaen i chi ffodus i ddechrau yma iawn, yr ystod y byddai brydau o'r yrthes i'r ffaith? Ie, rydym yn wneud. Felly mae'r iawn i dyma ei hyffordd ac rydym yn ymweld yn ei wneud. Dw i'r lidio fii phwysig. Rwy'n cymryd a dwi wedi gofyn o fewn i'w meddwl i'r llwyseid. I had a picture of me with the Oxford Book of Death under my arm, leaning against a tree. And then I did something on BBC Radio Cornwall, because that's where I was living at the time. And I did it at 6.30 in the morning, which is for BBC Local Radio, that's peak listening hours, because basically the demographic is elderly people who don't sleep. And I had a call within 10 minutes of doing it, of someone going, can you do a funeral? And I was very transparent. I had no... I try not to wear my anarchist badge necessarily when I meet a family, but I don't dress differently. I don't wear suits or anything like that. I didn't have a fancy car, I still don't have a fancy car, just use an estate car, Volvo. So I was just very transparent with people. I would say to them and go, look, I'm not about stuff. I'm not about selling you a coffin. I'm not about a shiny car. I'm not about the flowers. I'm about the experience and I'm about the content. And it's just me, so we will be doing it together. And if you're up for that, let's do it. But if you're not, it's totally fine. There's millions and yellow pages who will steer you through something. And it just struck a chord with people. I mean, it took a while before people built. And I also didn't realise that it was an almost impossible industry to set up in. You know, as you know, you can't just put a sign on a shop front and go funeral directors and expect people to come in. It's reputation based. Very much so. So I had to kind of build it slowly. And I just didn't know that you couldn't do that really before it was too late and I was doing it. That's brilliant, Ruth. Thank you. So I've seen many references to rave and punk as having shaped your world. How have they influenced your work and the approach that you take? Oh, massively. I was 18 in 1988 in the second summer of love. And I had just got out of serving a 10-year stretch for a crime I did not commit in a boarding school from the age of seven. And raving completely saved me, completely deprogrammed me from that kind of hardcore establishment schooling. It just popped me out into society and showed me that the world was, as I suspected and as I knew, but it just proved to me that the world was filled with many, many more people than the kind of Boris Johnson's of this world. And it showed me a wonderful self-regulating culture which was based about unbridled joy, really. And I think, you know, you remember what it was like in the 80s. Thatcher had sat on us for just what seemed like forever. And there was very little hope and very little joy. And rave was this thing like Snoopy dancing on top of his doghouse for no reason whatsoever. And it just showed me what community and showed me how good people were. And I can't deny that the drugs that were involved at that stage also had a very personal healing experience on me. I'm not really endorsing them for everybody, but for me, and certainly in medical trials now for PTSD and things like that, they're proving very, very useful. Rave gave me an enormous sense of belonging. And punk, punk is DIY culture, really, isn't it? This is incredibly punk. So just the idea of going, yeah, we don't have to do it like that. We don't have to do what has been done. We can do it our way. And punk hadn't happened to funerals, really, up until that point. No, not at all. OK, so you've written a book, which we will touch on. Talk to me about crop circles. Talk to us about crop circles. Crop circles, OK. Now, I haven't been to EMF before, but I don't think I'm misjudging the mood to think that this is a very, very clever, sophisticated science-based audience. They like to think they are. They like to think. But I don't imagine I'm on too controversial ground if I point out that crop circles are made by people. That's, you know, I come from Totnes, I would get lynched for saying that. So crop circles happened to me at a time when my mum died when I was 25 and I was flailing around. The crop circle phenomenon was in full swing then. I got really into them and I wanted to believe that they were something unbelievably otherworldly. I had extraordinary experiences in them, but I gradually started to work out that really they were people, even though they were these amazing, complex things that were seemingly happening overnight. For me, what they were was, someone's described them as temporary temples, and people were having incredible experiences in them, and they were having what they thought were metaphysical experiences or transcendental experiences, but really what they were doing is they were having an emotional response to a work of art. But because they didn't know it was art, they were feeling it in different ways. For me, it was a ritual game changer because really, really odd things did happen to me in them. I did see people going through spontaneous healings of this and that, but I knew it was people making them. Crop circle, and then I started making them in a very low key simple way for my own ritual use. But they just showed me that you can create something incredibly transcendent and magical, genuinely magical that doesn't have a false premise to it. It's really about intention and clearing the space and setting the scene and allowing things to happen on the base of that. So they've been a huge influence on me. I still love them. I still absolutely love them. Do you still make them? I do, but I'm nearly 52, and they're physically really quite, you know, the people I know who made some of the enormous sort of Mandelbrot, Mandala's and things like that, they've all got what was called Cropi's Knee. They've all got terrible rheumatoid arthritis in their knee. They're a bit like that, you know, that joke about the Haggis having one leg shorter than the other. They all go round in circles. So, yeah, and also, I don't feel that it's tight. It was a different age then, you know, agriculture was heavily subsidised. It just doesn't feel like it's crop circle making time now, really. No, that's fair, that's fair. You talk about being in the crop circles a sense of there being a temple and it became part of ritual for you. The traditional funeral industry is very, very much about ritual in a pomp and circumstance way. Now, I know that very unusually you conduct most of the ceremonies in that you're the celebrant as well as the undertaker. Yes, and you are the celebrant as well, aren't you? So how do you bring ritual to the ceremonies that you, or how do you work with families to create rituals that are meaningful for them? Very carefully because I think, you know, when I've been doing this for 23 years now and when I first started it at the beginning of the kind of alternative funeral movement, ceremonies could be very busy, you know, and people would go, okay, so we're not doing the church thing, we're not having prayers, we're not singing hymns, we're not doing that, there's no incense. So we've got to replace everything with a secular alternative. And there was a lot of, there was just too much going on. You know, there was passing a talking stick around as a nightmare if you've got 150 people and the talking stick gets to someone and you're like, oh no, they never, you know. So I start, they started off being a bit busy and they'd just become slimmer and slimmer as it were. And again, it's almost like going from a really complicated top circle to a very simple circle. So the rituals that I kind of do are just trying to bring people into the moment very quickly, not through maybe ringing a gong or doing anything like that, but just setting the tone and letting people know that we are going to be talking about the person in a very honest way. And that kind of snaps people, you know, I'm sure you know what it's like, people are used to going to funerals where they talk in the back of the crème and they're having a bit of a laugh and they're waiting to get out. And if you say something important straight away, people are like, oh God. Absolutely. So now my rituals are really just about sincerity, I suppose. I think that's figured really highly in my work is about the honesty. I saw somewhere in the book as about honesty, appreciation, and there was a third integrity. Honesty, participation, and... Oh God, I forgot. Transparency. Transparency is the other one. You say that to properly honour somebody, they need to be seen in their entirety, which is something I completely agree with. But how does that work when that individual's entirety isn't palatable to society? Because not everybody is loved. Absolutely. So that's a red line for me, is the term loved one. Because as you say, not everybody is loved. And you just have to kind of go, oh, you know, are you going to come round to see your loved one to the wrong person? And they're like, I didn't love him. He was a violent, abusive, alcoholic bastard. I don't love him. So it's... But everybody deserves a funeral. And I think that by the time you've died, really what you are owed is the truth about yourself. And it's very difficult because somebody else is going to be saying that truth about yourself. But it can be done in... And I'm sure you do it in exactly the same way, Sophie. There are ways that you can bring someone's faults and the tragedies in their life without bringing any judgement at all. Because it's very difficult to see a life until it's done. And the day before somebody dies, their story is still going on. But once they're dead, you suddenly see the arc of the story. And it always has a reason. Badness doesn't come out of nowhere. Stuff happens for a reason. And once you've got that reason and you can explain it, it's a lot easier to deal with someone's unpalatable size. And we've all got unpalatable size. Absolutely. I'm sure you're the same. We just get away from whitewashing people into... It's part of that. That's still a religious hangover that you can't speak ill of the dead or that somehow because now they're dead, they're up in a different place and they know more than you and they're better than you because they're dead. They were just like us. Flawd human beings. And there's very much an element of performance in that celebrancy work. And actually the moment you stand up and start to describe somebody nobody in the audience would ever recognise in a million years, it's gone. You've lost them. Absolutely, you've lost them. But if you mention just a couple of adjectives, which everybody goes, oh, my God, they actually know we're actually going to talk about him. The mood changes and it's electrifying. And if you then give people permission to share and say their own stuff, and it might take a while, it might take three-quarters of an hour before someone actually chimes in and goes, well, they were like this and that, it's wonderful, isn't it? And it never feels like you're condemning anybody or judging anybody, no matter what they've done. And I'm sure you've done this. We were talking in the green room. We've done funerals for people who've done terrible things. Life is really hard and complicated. But you can still honour them with the truth. And all that they were, absolutely. Okay. So we've got some children. I can hear some children, which is fantastic that we live in. We don't involve children in death. So how do you include children? How do you hold space for them and their grief in a world where we don't allow children... we try and protect children from grief? I'll use the word protect. Yeah, for the best reasons. I mean, that's why I became an undertaker. Basically, my dad died when I was seven and I didn't go to the funeral. My grandparents died within three months and I didn't go to their funeral. So that is my... one of my core drivers is including children. The thing about kids, as we all know, is that actually they're way more resilient than we give them judgement for. And it's the adults who have a lot of the baggage around it. So I still get families who kind of go on. I don't think we're going to bring so-and-so to grandad's funeral. It's like, did they love him? It's like, yeah, they really loved him, but it's like, okay, we'll bring him, because they're probably not going to be as upset as you think. And they are going to regret it in 20 years' time if they're not there. So the way I try and do it is... I try and imagine it like it's a blizzard, it's like it's a white-out. And you put a flag in every 100 yards, a kind of big scarlet flag. So when they return to the memory of the funeral in 20, 30 years' time, you can take them back from bit to bit and you go, do you remember that bit when you were doing that bit? And you take photos of it and you get them involved. Actually, for most kids, even if it's their parents, if they're young enough, a funeral is just another experience. It's an exciting day. But they need stuff for the future, because that's when they're going to be going through it. So you get them to hold the coffin. You get them to be involved in it, to talk, to take photographs, to write on the coffin. I love that. Some of the best ones I've done, cardboard coffin with a box of sharpies on it is a thing of wonder. Yes, absolutely. And quite often quite obscene if you get the right crowd as well. It's probably best it's going in the ground quite soon. OK. Right, OK. So there was a phrase in your book, accidentally occult. Can you tell us a bit more about the performance ritual that you developed? Yes, yes, I did. I wrote a performance ritual, which I still do, and I'm not even entirely sure what it's about. It has lines in it like, the glass of life is not half full or half empty. It's already smashed on the floor. And every drop that passes your lips is sucked from the teeth of non-existence. So it's just getting into this idea that really, that really, you know, we are already dead. There's a song by an amazing band called Akron Family called Don't Be Afraid You're Already Dead. And that's kind of one of the refrains in it. And it's quite, it possibly should have a trigger warning. It makes people feel quite uneasy. But it's also about upsetting, turning around the idea of ancestors and how we deal with ancestors. And again, it's getting back to that point of imbuing our dead with a lot more wisdom. And it's very difficult to get away from that of going, oh, they can see everything now. They know everything now. They know more than us. They're better than us. And it's part of that thing of going, oh, generations before were so much purer, you know, so everything was better in the past. And part of this ritual is about trying to go, you're already dead, so what does it matter? You know, every moment that you are living is snatched. It's a miracle that we're here. The chances of us being here are just so unbelievable that how can you not just triumph? But it's also about going, what if we are really the ancestors? Because we are probably, you know, I believe that every generation becomes a little bit better, just because people do. You know, we learn from the mistakes of the previous generation. So it's a weird thing. It's a weird thing. And it also involves a plastic skull, which is an embodiment of a Haitian voodoo deity called Papagedi, who is the guardian of the graveyard in Haitian voodoo cosmology, I suppose. He is the corpse of the first man to die. And he wears glasses with one lens removed so he can see into the underworld. And he's like a lot of the voodoo gods. He's quite crude and sexual and deeply disrespectful to authority. So it involves him and he's got a cigar in. I used to put him on a turntable and light it and pour him libations of rum and stuff like that. And it's also about trying to get people to realise that your ancestors are not just your genetic ancestors, they're your cultural ancestors. And that probably your cultural ancestors are still alive and that it's really good to recognise them and realise where you're coming from. So that's what that's about. But it still makes me go, I don't know really what it's about. Accidentally oco, you know, I don't think you necessarily have to know what you're doing when you start out. You can retrospectively explain yourself. That's quite useful. You can add meaning as you go along. You can, yeah. Marvelous. So I gather that you're also involved in with Bill Drummond and Jimmy Corthey. So they're from, you might know them as the KLF, amongst their many, many other talents. What's the people's pyramid? Oh, the people's pyramid. So I got to know, I was a huge fan of the KLF. They're actually the justified ancients of Moo Moo, is who they are, beyond the KLF. But they're probably most famous for at the height of their success in 1992 when they were the biggest selling singles bound in the world. They deleted their entire back catalogue, left the music industry, and took the remaining money that they had, which was a million quid, and burnt it. And then started a kind of very peripatetic career as a conceptual artist, which some of it is great, some of it is a bit bonkers. But I met Jimmy Corthey when one of his installations, one of his dystopian model villages, which if you ever get a chance to see them, do a really great haunting. I brought it down to Totnes, and I got to know him then. And then his family come from Totnes. And very sadly, about three months after that, his brother took his own life. So we did the funeral for that. And they've always had an obsession with pyramids. And we were going to burn Jimmy's brother on a pyre. But his brother had four sons, and they thought that was a little full on, which is fair enough. So a couple of months after the funeral, Jimmy rang me up and he went, we've had an idea. And the idea is basically that you get, it's called mumification. You can buy a house brick, but in the middle of it, it's got an indentation about thumb deep. And when you die, if you're cremated, 23 grams of your cremated bones are sprinkled into the hole, taken back to the brick factory and refired. And that means that the ashes, which are basically bones, human bones, forms a kind of beautiful glaze, like a kind of pottery glaze. It's a year. We get together the bricks that have been mumified, and we're assembling them into a pyramid, and it's in Toxteth. We're very, very close to finding a site in Toxteth, but Liverpool is an amazing place and it's very important to both Bill and Jimmy. So the idea behind it, and we also created the Toxteth Day of the Dead around it, the Liverpool Arts Lab have created a marvellous series of rituals about it, but what it's about is it's trying to create a communal morning focus that has no props around it. So it's not about the KLF, it's not about Bill and Jimmy or anything they've done. It's not about any religion. It's about having this thing which we all come together and turns into a kind of... I mean it's not for everyone because basically you're in a brick, in a pyramid, it's going to be 23 foot high, it's going to take 63,549 bricks to make, so I'm going to be long dead by the time it's done, and it will be semi-anonymous. There's a lot of really interesting tech that we're going to do. There's going to be a 3D model of it so that you can zoom in on your particular relative's brick and pull out all the information and there'll be all their kind of life story there. Fantastic. It's been going a few years now and it's quite incredible to see this community that's built up around it. So once a year it happens and they bring their bricks and we cement it, and the architects have designed it so that it's always a pyramid. It's like a growing crystal. And just to see people who've got no idea who the KNF are, don't give a toss about that. They're just having a go at a second funeral and they're doing it with other people who are complete strangers and they're cementing these bricks into a pyramid and then afterwards we have a party and you see them talking to each other and you see them having this opportunity to talk about the person they love who has died with someone else who's a complete stranger with nothing in common apart from that they're all going into the pyramid. It's a great thing. It's a really great thing. We weren't sure if it was going to work but I really know it's going to work now. I absolutely love the aspiration and the thought that people can come and bring their dead talk about the person who's died because there seems to be a cliff after the funeral and nobody knows what to say and what to do and to create that focal point where you're there but the dead person's there with you. Not in any spiritual way but just acknowledging who they were and what they brought sounds immensely valuable for the people that participate. Immensely valuable. I think a comparable thing would be the Covid memorial wall that started in Westminster but that obviously has a quite justifiable undercurrent of anger and is a very specific thing but at last years, which we did up in Buxton just to confuse people, the day of the dead up in Buxton but there was a woman and her mum came along and they had the ashes of their son who had died probably six or seven years before and he'd had a slightly troubled life. He'd struggled with alcohol and substance abuse and he'd died young and it was a sad thing and they came up and this was quite out of their kind of cultural framework doing something like this and they laid the brick and it was, when everyone comes forward we call their names out and when they come forward one at a time there's about two, three hundred people around it and they come forward crying with their brick and we literally cement it in place and we've got a bricklayer who's really good at doing it and then we went back to a hotel for a party afterwards and everyone was allowed to bring three tracks so there's a massive playlist and the mum who was probably about 65, 66 started dancing and I could see the way she was dancing that she was no stranger to dancing and I was like, you've done that before haven't you? She was just settling in for a proper skank, a proper rave and she said, I haven't danced a step since my son died and just suddenly go wow, this has freed something enough that you're dancing and you're dancing with someone else who's laid a brick today and you're just telling them about your son and they're telling them about their dad it was just an incredible thing to go we could just step back now completely it doesn't need to have any, it's going, it's going It sounds absolutely fantastic and actually I've never wanted to be cremated but do you need whole body ashes if I have to have a bit locked off? Do you know what, this is a question which comes up a lot Really? It really is, it really is we might even have to put it on the terms and conditions it's like, no you don't have to be totally cremated you have to have a very understanding funeral director I can recommend one I haven't yet worked out how many bones you need to fit into the first time I was asked this I was like yeah probably an arm would be fine but I'm thinking probably a hand would be enough and somehow it's got to be reduced to bone and you can't put a hand in a cremator it'll just probably go so there's quite a lot of practical issues around it you probably need a pestle and mortar and a barbecue I think that's legal No words So there is so much more that we could have talked about Ru and it's an absolute privilege to hear what you've shared Tell us just, when does your book, have you got your book? When's your book come out? I have got my book, it's called What Remains, it's out in September as some wag has pointed out what remains sounds a little bit like someone turning out I'm going where's my dad's ashes and I was going I thought you had them, what remains It's coming out in September published by Chelsea Green sorry what was the question I was just letting you plug in It's all good, I was lucky enough to have a proof copy and it's really good, it's really very good It's quite raw I think I do like to take, I don't know if I'm going to get an opportunity to write another book so I've taken a right old pop at things that I don't like and I've taken a right old hurrah of things I do approve of and I feel coming here this weekend I had no idea what to expect and I find it deeply inspiring and deeply hopeful that just go oh wow there are pockets of culture which are thriving really and I suppose what I wanted to do in the book was just go these are the things I think are great these are the things I think are shit and I think it's alright to say that at this stage of the game really and hopefully it will inspire others the same way that you were inspired to take a completely different approach so there is only one question I can end on you know what I'm going to ask you like me you absolutely recommend that families don't leave the individuals don't leave deeply specific information on what they want to happen at their funeral because funerals are for those who are left behind and it can just add stress what are your hopes for your own funeral well yes I agree I always tell people not to over plan their own funeral but of course I make an exception for myself it's changing a little bit now as I grow up a bit actually what I do want in an ideal scenario I'd like to be cremated on a pyre and I was involved in a campaign to find out whether that was legal and I think we've kind of clarified that it is pretty much semi-ly I don't think you're going to be prosecuted for it if you've done all the right paperwork put it that way if you've murdered someone and you then burn them on a funeral pyre that's a different thing but in an ideal scenario it would be mid-summer it would be on top of a hill my friends and family would carry me up to an enormous pyre and as dusk fell it would be lit and it would be fed with wood all night long and then come dawn it would be... everyone would dance around it and have a rave around it basically but as I get older I'm starting to realise that that's a bigger ask of my family and my partner so I don't necessarily think that it's fair to say to the people who love me that they have to do that and your friends with crop-circle knees the dancing all night is going to be tricksome it's all right because it's in a circle oh okay they're fine, they're fine you just set them off, they're like donkeys Ruth that's brilliant can you please join me in thanking Ruth Callender thank you, thank you Sophie, brilliant