 Hey guys, sorry about that. It was a little bit of internet connectivity issues on our end. Apologize. So, but we're here with Rachel How are you doing? I'm doing well. All right, Rachel. She's from JetBrains and you're gonna actually we save the best for last I think personally um, so you're gonna talk about how to design and develop like Accessibly, yes, that's ability way. Yes, like, oh, that's good Accessibilities, I don't know. Cool. Very cool. Um, so why don't you just take it away? All right, sure so this talk title is be an ally and with ally it is Often abbreviated as a 11 y for accessibility and you'll see this in a few different areas So that's some popular nomenclature in accessibility design So what we're gonna do is talk about a few things since we only have 30 minutes that you can do that are pretty easy to be able to make your site accessible for many many users out there and I'll let you know why and how as we go along so first off why Should we care about accessibility because it is much more than a disabled parking spot Right in a little sticker in the car window. That's the first thing everyone thinks about accessibility Well, we have a parking spot out front. Aren't we good? Nobody thinks about it on the web and it is actually very very important Let's think about it on the web and in apps as well a lot of the supplies in both lands web and So it is the right thing to do and you know it right don't pretend you don't you do right? It's the right thing to do. You're able to reach all the people you need to reach even the people that it might be difficult to reach If you're not convinced about that you or loved one Absolutely will in your life have an accessible need Many people do now as staggering number of people but at some point it's gonna be you everybody dies and If you think you're not going to you're probably delusional enough that maybe software also isn't for you We're going to die I hate to tell you about that and end of life is going to be a time when you really really really need accessibility along with illness accidents and lots of other things that happen in life including aging as well So if you live a nice long not life to 90, that's awesome, but you're gonna need a little help Still not convinced how's this right? There's money in this So you're doing the right thing and you could end up with a pile of cash. How's that? Because over a billion people with 1.2 trillion dollars of disposable income have accessible needs and when you Incorporate in their loved ones that goes up to 8 trillion So is that good enough for you if you're all like, hey, you're being all PC with this right thing to do and blah blah blah Well, how about the money then right do it for the money at least? Right, so there's a good reason and this is from Forrester In the US there's 62.8 million Americans that require assistive technology so even if you're like well, I don't do stuff worldwide You only need to do stuff for the USA. Well great, but that's still a lot of people All right, if that's a dollar a person of revenue you have that's a lot of money There's very many different categories of things that people need for accessibility needs so 25% Have a vision difficulty Order also have dexterity difficulties and we have hearing difficulties 35% of entrepreneurs are dyslexic And 20% in the UK so that's a few stats Mostly from the American side of things that translates out to a lot of cash as well And of course those baby boomers right and then following them. What is a Gen X after that or something? They have over 65 They're rising right and medicine is getting better. So even though we are still going to die We're you know, you're gonna get pretty old and what happens when you get old You're gonna have to face this you may lose short-term memory vision hearing fine motor function Things that today's technology Require Right. So those things Gets a little bit harder when you get older and I can vouch for this myself You know, I'm up getting there in old person territory And I noticed it's harder to you know fine-tune stop laughing at me Beth So like I noticed it's harder to fine-tune click on you know an exact pixel with the mouse or even a trackpad and Things, you know, I need to do The thing with the glasses where you have to take them off to read something in front of your nose Or you have to stretch your hand out really far to see something on your phone So those guys, you know, I actually had the talk about progressive lenses with the ophthalmologist. I was like no So it's that milestone that you're gonna get there and it might not be vision, but it will be some So Okay, say well, you know, but that's that's a thing. There's better glasses out there and whatnot But but look at here's what customers want As far as accessibility goes right what they want is not Better glasses per se and have you looked at prices of glasses in the US these things are expensive But what they want isn't necessarily new fangled accessibility technology, but they want you to write better software Imagine this the software developers you may have heard this before Right people want better software and accessibility is a big part of what they want so and in this case the last This might not be the most recent poll But it's just you know going in that direction still over 80 percent wanted more accessible websites Because developers like flashy things or are more interested in clean code and that is a great thing to do But then you do it at the expense of people actually being able to use your software And it's been said shipping is a feature shipping for everybody should also be a feature So the types of accessible needs there's four general categories visual auditory motor and Cognitive the bulk of your work if your developer is going to be in the visual area Because the web is very largely visual, but there are a few things you can consider Maybe not so much coding practices, but consider for the other three. There will be some coding practices for The first thing we'll take a look at is that excess assistive technology So there is a picture of me on the left where somebody else took a picture of me Highlining the menu with the phone because old person can't see it. It was dark How many times do somebody do this out at dinner right you have to highlight the menu or even trackpads? Guess why they're even a thing. Oh sure. It wasn't just a cool thing. It was for accessible needs and Of course glasses a lot of people say but but I'm really young and I don't need them and they're wearing glasses And I'm like but you're actually wearing assistive technology now right as I am glasses and all I still can't see the menu So sometimes you're already using the assistive technology, and you don't even know it Did you use an escalator today? Guess what that's technically an assistive technology. It's not always high-tech It's not always a spaceship The ones that we tend to think of when we think of like a disability or something about accessibility are things like the screen readers Braille readers Those kind of things maybe a like a Braille reader Sip and puff switch single-axis switches eye-tracking eyeglasses or Adaptive keyboards, so there's a few examples of the technology that many people are using to access your software And you might not even know it right We do have these people and they may be struggling to use your software and in many many cases They end up being so frustrated that they just abandoned popular sites and I remember looking into some data with mobile app development a while back when Smartphones were becoming kind of a thing and they said like look if the page takes more than two seconds to load like 70 some percent of the users just dump it and they're like And They just go somewhere else. They won't download the page. They won't surf there. They're they're done Even on a regular computer. How many times it takes more than two seconds to load, right? So people get frustrated quickly with technology especially people who may not have wanted to use it in the first place and they have to and If you don't perform well, they're not going to use it, right? So these are things we have to consider these people are your users whether or not you plan for it They are or at least they're trying to be but you might be losing them and with that a lot of money Xbox knows this so that's one of the adaptive controllers for Xbox right for accessibility needs and one of the designers Talking about it and there's the tweet that that goes to Let's take a look specifically now at these categories. We'll start with visual Which there's four kind of areas inside of there Low vision, so that would be me, right? Standard, you know, I'm getting older against east of then blindness color blindness and color contrast sensitivity Now you could consider yourself perfectly not disabled whatsoever, but color contrast is Something that tends to hit everybody If you have bad contrast, nobody can read your stuff or they can but it's it's literally painful for some people So one thing that we have is screen narrators. So I have my Mac here So I have voiceover which works pretty well, but also there's NVDA very popular Web anywhere also a couple of browser specific ones voiceovers not browser specific that little Point just got tabbed in a bit. So we do have these various screen readers. These are generally free There's also some experimental ones and some that you can pay for as well but if you want to test and Just get a feel for what it's like and I highly suggest people do this download like NVDA or web anywhere Or if you have a Mac use Apple voiceover Go browse the web with your eyes closed and see how far you get See if you can understand even a simple page that you use every day and what's going on If you lost your site tomorrow Would you be able to use their sites and you're gonna find out that the answer to this is no in many many instances So we will work with them at some point or you should have people that test with them At some point and if possible visually impaired people So the first thing that we can do to help screen narrators is this thing called a skip link now what could be more annoying if you cannot see a page and You know pages are full of things nowadays They're not a tiny little page with just four or five blinking elements like they were decades ago There is just all kind of content things popping up ads here and there You know, even if you have an ad block or sometimes things squeak through and there's a lot of links And what happens is when the user enters a page the narrator Not all narrators. They don't all work exactly the same But many of them will read off the top bar of links or the side bar of links and When they do that It'll read it off and then they click on a link and go to that page And then it has to read those links again before it gets to the content and then if they go somewhere else It reads the links again and this gets to be annoying pretty quickly So something you might consider is skip links now Some of the assistive technology is getting a little bit better in that they are able to figure out with semantic HTML that there is a section of links and they just skip over it, but Just like with accessibility you do have to support older browsers as well So if you're still supporting IE 8 and some of those older browsers You might need to have skip links for those newer stuff and newer Designs, you know using HTML 5 semantic web that sort of thing is generally a little bit better in this category But we still got to support the old stuff and it's easy enough Here's what you do. The first thing that shows up in a page is going to be an anchor and It's gonna have its href set to a named area or named link Then somewhere in the page where somebody would be able to skip over the navigation bar and go to You have that named area or link in the page So here in the sample, you know, I just have a class that's a skip domain content And then the main content which is either a named link or a semantic main Tag, right? Either one works so this When this happens then the screen narrator can sit on the skip link and then that Person that is not cited well can then hit the tab key and then just skip down to the content and Just go right past all of the links Now a few things you can do with this one is if you have the links present and visible fine That's great But sometimes people have links not necessarily as the first set of things in the page Because it does have to be right up there in the beginning So what we might want to do is a little bit of a small hack And that is to put the links in the beginning but to make them hidden Now when you make them hidden you just make them a one pixel wide one pixel high and set the left Way out into left field. So there it's like minus 10,000 Then this way it'll just push the links out But still in the DOM because if you set visibility to hidden then it won't screen Narrators won't pick it up if you set, you know, any kind of the visible properties It won't if you set the width and height to zero it won't pick it up So you want screen narrators to pick it up. So if you set CSS for those links, then You can just shove them out in left field They're out of sight But the screen narrator can read it and then people could skip over it Now if you're using something like bootstrap and if you're using if you're a dotnet person Which you probably are if you're here at dotnetconf then with bootstrap They have an sr-only class and with that You can just set your nav portion like the whole div that contains your links to that and that will hide it if you need to There's also some landmarks that you can use if there's no semantic HTML and you have Very very old site with mostly old browsers to use So skip links are pretty easy. You could just do an sr-only in there. So that's just a little bit of HTML if I go and I take a look at Say a razor pages Sample like a small razor razor pages website and I go into the layout page Here's where you can actually put something like that, right? I might have my div with a couple of Links inside of it and I could class that as sr-only because this uses bootstrap, right? So then that would pick that up if I didn't want to do that That's fine here. We're using nav anyway. So nav is semantic HTML. So that should work just fine So here I have my different links and bootstrap and pick that up and decide if it needs to display or skip or whatever So that'll be good for the screen readers Also, you notice things like main and other you know footer header Those semantic elements having nose helps with the screen narrators There's also an accessibility plugin for bootstrap. So that will help you along with that Past screen narrators, there's much more you could do but we only have 30 minutes So we'll take a look at these other factors here like color blindness Here's a really easy low-hanging fruit thing you could do Download this thing called color oracle and when you do that, I could come over and take whatever sample web page that I want and Let me run this and then what you could do with color oracle And I think I'm gonna have to go Maybe launch my color oracle and now I can't find it. Oh Here it is There it is so it should show in windows in your tray and Mac It'll show up in the little Mac area here and what you could do is here I have several colors right your classic red blue green yellow, right right out of the rainbow and Once I have that page up. I can just click on color oracle and then I could pick One of the different color blindnesses that are available and it'll show me what it looks like So those people so something we could see here just by kind of scanning through the different Color blindnesses that we have right lacking red lacking blue lacking green Etc is that a lot of people on a lot of websites will use a green button for okay and a red button for cancel But if you do that, they don't look at all like this We're maybe up to 5% of the population and if you take say the u.s Has 330 million people so that's a lot of people that's several million people that don't see red or green And it looks like these colors here. So You might want to consider Not using color as the primary indicator of what something does use you can have color in Your buttons or whatever but also use text or something else to denote what it does So you can get this nice little tool and then you could run this through any web page to see what it's like It's a matter of fact Facebook is blue the color that it is Because Mark Zuckerberg has one of the color blindnesses There's also a cool accessibility color wheel tool so Designers and developers can work together on this one and you just pick out your foreground and background and It'll tell you if it's good or not and you can pick out different Contrasts and in it, you know adheres to WCAG and all that good stuff So that's a nice easy tool to use and there's also a color blindness simulator so you can Go to the simulator and it does something similar to what the color oracle does But here you could take a sample photo and you could just click around in it and see what it looks like You could upload your own photos So if you have a photo heavy site that will give you the view of somebody who has a color blindness So you can help design much better now color contrast is something that affects nearly everybody So we want to consider what's good contrast and bad usually nice and light on dark or nice and dark on light But also sometimes the colors themselves. So here's bad contrast a lot of people won't even be able to see this at all That's just crap Here's good contrast. All right, you can see that Here's like It's not great really that could be way better This is very good black on a nice light blue Now this is horrible actually looking at the monitor I could see it on my laptop, but I literally cannot see any text on The screen in this studio. So that's terrible contrast There are some good contrast right and then again This is just so bad your eyes are bleeding at this point like this and I see this everywhere if you do this You're a terrible person. I'm sorry. That is just awful Here's good contrast right and then just another man. That's it like light gray on white. I know that's popular It's not the greatest though nice red on white is good But if you look at some of them like that red on the green It actually hurts your eyes when you look at it look if your software is physically hurting people You're a jerk like stop it. That is just not cool. All right, so Look at these things and use say the color contrast Contrast tool from web aim and that will help you sort out your colors And if your designer did that go give them a slap. That's not right. They shouldn't be doing that As far as screen readers go So you can take any screen reader and kind of practice with it So if we are using things like semantic HTML, this helps now if we're using net also Not only do the templates for the ASP net core and ASP net Projects have semantic HTML, but when you use data annotations that produces the correct HTML and JavaScript So the screen that narrators can pick that up so if I were to run something like that and Just launch my site Somewhere where I can maybe enter some data and Once I get to here if I go ahead and open save voiceover Okay, so voiceover does cool things. Oh, I forgot to actually There we go, I keep forgetting to click use on it These are pretty robotic So This one goes fast because if it went slow people would be on the page all day, but as you tab through So you'll see it does Okay, so as you can see as I go through and I tab through it starts to tell you what you're doing and where you're at And again if you're using Like scaffolding to scaffold your pages like I did with this one and data annotations This is gonna pick all of that up and it's going to be able to effectively read what's on the screen And as you can see even though it's for folks with sighted disabilities it does give you a little blurb at the bottom in text as well and So if I look at my data annotations Okay, we don't need it to narrate inside of writer or anything like that. We're good So here right in my model, right? I can come in here and just set the data types Correctly, so I have dates and it knows it's just a date not the time as well and the display name So it the screen reader can pick that up and in annotations That just gives us all of the information when it produces the rendered output screen narrators are very happy about that So there I have those so that works out really good For accessible forms So you can see we'll take a look at the form here If you have things like the checkboxes and lists and grouped items you could use the field set and legend But in this case, I didn't have any I just had a plain form and A couple of divs that were grouped here So there's one grouping for the name one for the enrollment date one for the expected graduation date for these students and Something that I did here on purpose so we could see how it works if you notice all of these except the last one Have the label right so that's a semantic HTML element and the label tells the screen narrator what this is about so previous days we would just use a span or Some other kind of little tag to be able to kind of label our input elements but now what we could do is say input and then use our ASP for and Then go ahead and say label ASP for and point that to our input, right? We're actually the same actual model item, right? So our little object right out of the model and then that's all gonna work seamlessly together for us And I really I didn't have to do anything. This was all created when I ran scaffolding It's a really you get free stuff here. It's a boatload of free stuff Now I came in here and I removed this label So what would happen if I remove this label and I get to that element so if I come back here and Turn voice over back on Voice over us at chrome and attacks blank. That's it. We're currently on a text field. Thank you That's in this field. Thanks. Yeah great a text field. What text field? I don't know It's not labeled. I took the label out So even if there's some text ahead of there the narrator might not pick that up or no It might see the text, but it won't know that it belongs to this text box So it just goes at a text field. You're on a text field. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. That's not helpful What's up? So you want to use the labels and Appropriate scaffolding Turn that back off again Every time So yeah, and you can see how annoying this could get if you or somebody with sighted needs, right? So there we have the label again and also some things that we tend to do People tend to put a tiny little star and that's all to denote required and they'll make it red Which is too bad things right the red because our colorblind folks can't see it Also, it's tiny a tiny star that sometimes looks like a speck of dust on the screen. So, you know Other sighted needs can't see it So what we might want to do if you're actually going to use the word Required or if you're going to actually denote that something is required instead of waiting for them to get to the end And then popping up the messages Then you can actually just put the word required or something that's a little bit more clear than the star So that tends to be much more helpful There's also a little tool tip that you can create and the OAA accessibility project has that available So you could go there and they have some sample HTML to pop up a tool tip And then of course the folks in the accessibility circles argue our tool tips really accessible But these are built pretty well, so they don't get in the way The other thing with accessible forms you will see something called aria now aria was more needed in the past You will need it today once in a while when semantic HTML is Not really relevant for what you're doing Or if you have to support some of the older browsers or browsers that don't support HTML Right, so if that happens you may need some of these aria tags as Technologies evolving these tend to be going away a little bit So you can set an aria required if you needed to do that and that would give the screen narrator a little Assist and would say oh, yeah, yeah, I see that's required I can tell the user that and there's a full set of aria Attributes that you can apply to any HTML tag and of course that also works for any razor markup as well, and they have roles states Properties as well so you can say if things are disabled or if it's supposed to be navigation versus content required etc So it just helps the narrators you will the Narration so you'll see a few of these in the templates or ASP network projects with razor pages Now there's more things you could do for sighted people or people with sighted issues That's just a few of the big bangs for the buck It's not a lot of coding to do but it helps tremendously or for folks So we'll go into auditory and the next three categories are a lot less coding but just being aware of what's happening out there and Who is accessing your software so auditory is mild hearing loss to total deafness? So that's generally what that is Now some things just to take note of don't rely only on sounds for feedback that does happen Sometimes it happens in games or more an app development desktop find a stop use transcripts and closed captioning wherever possible because Not everybody could hear actually I'm seeing many many more people who can hear perfectly well And they say I actually prefer to just not blast the TV and I like to have close captioning on or folks who are learning languages Just like to run captions as well, and it helps out a little bit to hear it and to read it at the same time Know about deaf culture there it is such a thing right sign languages there and it's not sign language It's sign languages there are dialects and sign languages and people do have accents in sign language So if you do get interpreters that do signing That's just something to consider right that it that's out there So you might have a signer for one of your videos or something like that But they may have an accent or something and if they're not from your area and you're localized Some people might notice that so just so you know it's available out there The motor and dexterity issues alright, so this is generally illness injury disease there's many if you think about it things like epilepsy and Seizure disorders right a lot of websites have like a loud, you know pulsating Weird like psychedelic stuff going on and it just like kind of goes all over the place and people actually have seizures I know the Simpsons did an episode and they kind of like made a big joke about it But it seriously actually happens There's also motor dexterity as you get older Right if you look at many of us have you know very aging parents and they have tremors Essential tremor or something anybody of any age can have plus actual diseases like Parkinson's and whatnot You can have dexterity issues and something I see this drives me up the wall And I'm not the only one you'll go to a popular website and they'll pop up an ad Well, first of all the fact that it's an ad right is just wrong right there It's so annoying But then they'll make the close button like to a two pixel by two pixel button And you basically have to be a surgeon to be able to click on that button And it is really annoying and then people just go forget this and they just don't come back to your site So where you think you're being clever and you're trapping them in there They're just going like f you and they're going to another site because you've just made them very very angry so So all these things can all these kind of people are using your software Arthritis how arthritis is super common lots of people have arthritis and it actually is sometimes painful To try to click on that little square or to try to use just the mouse So make sure there's always alternative keyboard input, right? So that's something and that the tab order is not ridiculous that it goes in a logical fashion People forget to check the tab borders on forms Also temporarily like I said in the beginning you will at some point or a loved one will have these needs you break a bone If that's very common people that happens You break a bone That can cause an impact on your technology use also Sprains and lots of other stuff right people even just get you know frozen shoulders or Lots of joint problems and it's just part of aging or injury and then from that Just makes it a little harder to use Devices right so phones computers or anything So make sure oh also alt right so alternate keyboard and alt in images as well So lots of things avoid pop-ups and modal dialogues unless they're easy to get out of Nice big close buttons or where somebody can just click away or move away and it easily goes away Cognitive impairments as well are very common Everything from just you know Memory is not so good anymore, right? That's you know also an aging issue Remember the millions of people age in the US autism seizures Just comprehension and learning disabilities dyslexia ADD that's very very common. So these are all users, right? So if you look at this this is a significant portion of the population between visual auditory Dexterity and cognitive right you're talking like a quarter of the population at any given time All the way up to almost 40% in some areas. So there's a huge chunk that has Something going on or multiple things from these areas going on So that's something so there's no tools to help People with the cognitive disability for you to write code to make it easier for them What you need to do though is just keep things clear and simple, right? Which as a programmer you are supposed to be doing right? There is a kiss principle and you're supposed to be doing it in your code and it should be in your product as well but also programmers tend to you know Poo-Poo the UX right like that's not my job and stuff like that But it kind of is you're building the product and people are using it and if they can't You are partly responsible So you need to make sure that comprehensive UX testing gets done and not just with Two people who you think are the average user You need to get a nice variety of users in there because of these massive percentages of people with various Disabilities, right? So no tools per se to help just that you need to keep things in order keep it clear and simple keep it easy to use Listen to your users when they say this is not easy to use something that's not usually categorized as a Disability but it is an interesting thing that researchers have found as part of the human spectrum of being and living And that is a thing called synesthesia So there are these number of synesthetes out there with these various Ways that they experience the world that is different from what you would use or call in quotes normal One of them is the graphing color synesthesia Which is the picture that colored picture and when whenever Somebody talks about numbers if they said picture one to 100 that is what would show up in their head The one also to the right is the spatial sequence synesthesia and I actually have that right so when I see numbers I see them in a certain not what the cool colors though, but I do see them in certain patterns or ladders and time Dates and times I see in like circular patterns when that's how I experience time So people experience things differently other ones like when they hear sounds they experience a color or taste and Often letters like I have the word synesthesia Somebody might see every s is red Every you know h as purple and it'll be consistent right so every time they so you might be reading black on white text Somebody else might see a pretty big rainbow going through a page of the book So there's all these different ways that people just simply Experience the world not a disability is just a different way to experience Which is also how I see autism just a different way to experience the world So a lot of these things also when people sometimes when they touch things different textures They will feel a taste or feel a taste They will taste something when they feel a texture or you know when they hear certain sounds They might have a taste like so all kind of these weird and different kind of crossed perceptions So those are there's four main categories and some things you can do as a programmer as far as some general tools to help us out Web aim is where you want to go. This is a good one-stop place to go So if you go to web aim, they have this cool thing called a wave scanner So you could go plump in a URL You can even download this as a toolkit and it will just go through and tell you all the things That are you know that you can change to make it more accessible looks for alt tags and all kind of interesting and cool stuff, right so you could just pop in a website and See what it says so I could even like pop in my own blog here And then give it a second and it'll parse it and then come up with some ideas So here it'll actually give you errors alerts Tells you where you're using aria and not and some things that you can do better All right, it's that that you have in here. So that's a very handy tool there's also the Web content accessibility guidelines. They have a checklist. So when you go to publish You can go through the checklist see what's out there Also depending on where you live and what sector you're in if you're in government most certainly you have to do this So it just depends There's section 508 for the US and Europe has Some rules about this too and also the WCAG to checklists So there's two of them is that you can use in there The bottom one is a little bit newer, but these are checklists that just allow you to go through and Make sure that you have everything That you should and get all your ducks in a row. You can actually say oh make sure I have alternative text Make sure everything is clear. I have my alt attributes and here's inputs have labels Deform buttons have a descriptive value. So all these cool little things. So you don't forget, right? So that's very very handy as well So I like that quite a bit. So web aim in general is just a really good place to go There's also the ally project. So if you just look for a 11 y project the first thing that pops up and they have all kind of cool samples and things like that and Places you could go to to do a little bit more coding and much more than we could possibly talk about here in a half an hour Which I'm probably Okay, so Some final thoughts on this also Right, and this is right from web content accessibility Right for the love of God and all that is holy get over yourself Stop dragging your heels and make the hit you create acceptable bleep And seriously actually freaking care about it as well. Yeah, it's gonna get Okay, so really this is what WK finally got fit up with all your BS developers because you don't do any of this Right people just let this you know to the last thing if they even get around to it But a lot of people simply can't even use your software at all. So Like I said, if you don't care about the right thing to do or that it might even affect you if you think it won't How about the money go after the money? All right, and WKag wants you to do it as well So it's right up there on their on their check or on their wish list and their actual draft specs Which I think is kind of hilarious but sad that it needed to be said Right in here. I gave you just a few simple things you could do that will really enhance accessibility in your projects And there's of course a lot more you could do if you go to web a meal find that out And I think I'm pretty much done there wait. All right. We do have a couple questions. Yeah, let's let's go Let's just couple here One here actually is right in the chat window there question the Google live transcribe app is awesome Are there any other available to be used in Windows or the browser extension? The Google live transcript app transcribe. Oh transcribe app. I'm not sure if there's a comparable piece of software out there for that particular Another one I got in a whisper was Was a very I'm gonna ask you to verify a link I guess for they were asking about an accessibility For Windows apps, okay, because you talked a lot about web apps all about web apps And was wondering if you know was there a more up-to-date piece of software that I mean a piece of documentation than the one here that looks fairly old to me too, but Feel like a lot of these design concepts are sort of they sort of like live longer than the operating systems That's what I was gonna say because it's a design concept. Yep So I was actually gonna when you started talking about Windows point it to the actual Windows Okay Just making sure I didn't mess this all up, I guess So yeah, so sounds like that was Like give them everything that they need because a lot of that does have to do with design and what not Alright, I think that's that's about it So I want it before we wrap it up first of all I say, thank you very much before we wrap this whole show up I did want to say thank you so much to all of the people who have stuck through the whole show All the way to the end even a half an hour late Okay, we actually have a couple awesome people like literally the average like duration of time watched I have a couple stats here of the whole entire show 265 minutes in Trinidad and Tobago like they all like all three people watch the show Like days and on end. I wanted it was wanted to thank you The second combo Verdi and the third Isle of Man fourth Kenya at a hundred and twenty two minutes straight watch So that was a long, you know one full session to be fair though Isle of Man Yes, it's probably one isle with a man on it. I don't know literally a just a man That's it. Yeah, it's just next to England and everybody else is on the main England It could have been a girl watching. I don't know. I'm hoping Um, so anyways, great show everybody and we super appreciated Javier get into the shot here You've been the man man run in this whole twitch thing to you and Jeff. Yes Jeff took off to twitch con. Yeah, Jeff dumped on and you know, he totally dumped us for twitch con but that's cool because We need him to create some more mods for our awesome twitch stream for you, right? So huge thanks to everybody who tuned in on all three days. Thank you so much for making this fun This is year number six for that Right, so yeah, so this is year number nine for the virtual ones so next year we got our big number ten come over here, mister Big party next year This was the first one your idea. Yes. Yeah, so This whole thing started with Javier nine years ago. Yeah, so there you go. That's what kicked us off And then marketing took over and made it here right She did this So and thank you, Scott Hunter for actually building a product this year we had a launch event Thank you very much So thank you so much for coming you made it successful, it's the best one yet