 Well, good morning afternoon or evening everybody. Thank you for joining us for today's webinar. Today's webinar is on the ARDC's thematic research data commons on careful fairness. I'm introducing the session today. My name is Catherine Barker. I'm the Community Development Manager for Research Data Australia. Now this is a position funded by the ARDC to support and grow the RDA community in Australia. So it's my pleasure to introduce this session for the ARDC today. It is part of the Research Data Alliance's 10th anniversary event series, which you can see on my background here, which is comprised of a series of themed monthly events. August is disciplinary data. So we have Jenny Fuser to kick things off in a moment to tell us about the thematic research data commons on Hass indigenous data. I will need to leave this webinar early, unfortunately. I believe my colleague will put some links in the chat about RDA, how to join, how to find groups and find out more about the activities and events. And if you have any questions about the Research Data Alliance, please do get in touch on my email address, which will be posted. So at this point, I'd like to hand over to my colleague Jenny to kick things off for the webinar today. Thanks, Jenny. Thanks very much, Catherine. Hi, everyone. I'm just going to share my screen to get us started. So hopefully you can all see that now. I have no idea, but hopefully that's working for you. So good afternoon, everyone. I am Jenny Fuser. I'm the director of the Hassan Indigenous Research Data Commons at the ARDC. Before we begin, before we begin, I'd like to start the session by acknowledging and celebrating the first Australians on whose traditional lands we meet around Australia and indeed indigenous people around the world. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. I'm on Ghana country in South Australia, and I acknowledge that their sovereignty was never ceded. I'd also like to acknowledge the vibrant history and deep legacy of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's research and teaching, one of the oldest knowledge systems in the world. Okay, so a little bit about the Australian Research Data Commons. The ARDC is funded by the Commonwealth Government's National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Strategy, or NCRIS. We partner with the research community and industry to build leading-edge digital research infrastructure to provide Australian researchers with competitive advantage through data. Our mission is to accelerate research and innovation by driving excellence in the creation, analysis and retention of high-quality data assets. So how have we done this? So for the past several years, we've operated a range of programs and services over four portfolios. In particular, our platforms and software and data and services portfolios focused on co-investment programs supported by the underpinning storage and compute services and engagement activities in the people and policy portfolio. Under this strategy, we ran a series of open calls for projects. These open calls were oversubscribed and had a success rate of approximately 30%. So we realised we were simply unable to meet the demand for bespoke digital research infrastructure solutions. But what this process did give us was unique insight into the digital research infrastructure needs of the Australian research community. And in turn, this has influenced our priorities for the future and underpins our new strategic direction. Oh, I missed one. There we go. So the ARDC is now focusing on delivering digital research infrastructure through a suite of thematic research data commons. The thematic ARDC model is focusing efforts in domain areas that align with national priorities, researcher demand and concentration and potential for research translation. So this new strategy to deliver fewer, larger, coordinated activities will enable us to meet the needs of the greatest number of researchers through a small number of strategic priority areas. And a helpful analogy used by our CEO is that we're moving from the bespoke couture of the catwalk to the more accessible fashion of the high street. And in keeping with that theme, we can consider the thematic research data commons as a fabric of national research infrastructure capabilities selected strategically rather than competitively and co-designed with the research community. So the fabric has both nationally focused platform capabilities that strengthen and support the broader system. They're the horizontals here in this diagram and a deep focus on identified national challenges and opportunities shown here as the verticals to provide balance for a national system of digital research infrastructure. As a hub of expertise, the ARDC is positioned to drive best practice in the creation, analysis and retention of high quality data assets and to share these expertise across multiple research domains. But what is a research data commons? So research data commons brings together people, people are critical skills, data and related resources such as storage, compute, software and models to enable researchers to conduct world-class data intensive research. Current suite of research data commons are people for health and medical research planet for earth and environmental sciences research. And our focus today is the humanities, arts, social sciences and indigenous research data commons. Importantly, these commons are not standalone entities. Rather, we expect the learnings developed in one commons to be shared and applied across others. This will not only reduce duplication and effort, but offer unique solutions to varied challenges. So the Haas and Indigenous research data commons began in 2020 as a program of four projects shown here on the slide. These projects serve as the basis for which we are building a Haas and Indigenous research data commons over the next five years. And today you'll also be hearing from Robert McClellan from the language data commons of Australia projects, which is one of our foundation projects. Our approach to the Haas and Indigenous RDC differs slightly to our approach to people and planet in that it was born from a series of scoping studies undertaken by the Department of Education, who then identified four investment-ready activities which were subsequently funded through the October 2020 research infrastructure investment plan. So while we've held plenty of consultations, workshops and roundtables to gauge researcher requirements, we were already committed to these pre-designated projects. However, the consultations that we have held have been really valuable exercises and have enabled us to identify capability gaps for Haas and Indigenous research, which in turn has guided our planning from June 2023 onwards. So everything that we do is underpinned by the FAIR data principles. And the FAIR principles for research data management were published in 2016 and relate to making digital assets findable, accessible, interoperable and reusable. We support the FAIR principles and we ask for data to be as open as possible because accessible research inputs and outputs drive research impact, quality, translation and innovation, which is important for research and for society more broadly. Having said that, we recognise that translating the FAIR principles into practice will vary for each discipline. Nowhere is this more important than when considering Indigenous knowledges and data governance. In the context of the rise of the FAIR principles in the community of international data infrastructure builders, the Global Indigenous Data Alliance formulated the FAIR principles to address a clear deficit in FAIR regarding Indigenous people's rights and interests. So while in the context of FAIR it is suggested that data be as open as possible but as closed as necessary, the FAIR principles extend beyond this considering collective benefit, authority to control, responsibility and ethics. And this has been useful for raising awareness in data infrastructure building communities as a starting point, but we're aware that it is just that, a starting point. In building the house and Indigenous research data commons, we want to strive to better reflect Indigenous people's rights and interests. This in turn will also inform our people and planet research data commons to better address Indigenous people's rights and interests. So if you would like, we're aiming to be carefully FAIR. And I'd like to give you a few fairly basic examples of how we can apply care to being FAIR. So first of all, findable. So to make findable, apply care to findable, we want to ensure that data is labelled and described using terms that are inclusive and considerate of diverse communities. So for example, when describing datasets, using terminology that respects cultural sensitivities and avoids terms that could be offensive to any particular group. Make sure that data is findable, not only by using standardised metadata and keywords, but also by considering the preferences and language of different communities. So for example, providing metadata descriptions and keywords in multiple languages to cater to a wider audience and ensure inclusivity. So accessibility, making data available and accessible to both humans and machines. To do this, you can ensure that data is accessible to individuals with varying levels of digital literacy and technological access. This is a big problem in Australia with many Indigenous communities having very, very poor digital inclusion levels. So to as an example, you can achieve this by offering multiple modes of access, such as downloadable files, web-based interfaces and even physical copies where necessary. We also need to recognise that individuals may have different language preferences and English literacy levels and provide data in formats that are understandable and usable for them. So to achieve this, you can translate data documentation, metadata and user instructions into languages commonly spoken within the community to ensure inclusivity and understanding and work with community champions to support this. For interoperability and to ensure that data can be combined, integrated and used across different systems, it's important to take into account cultural, linguistic and local context considerations when establishing data standards and metadata schemas to ensure they are relevant and meaningful to different communities. For instance, if data standards include geographical information, make sure they are adaptable to various location naming conventions and local place names. We can recognise and incorporate Indigenous knowledge and traditional practices into interoperability standards to ensure that different world views are considered. So for example, developing data schemas that can accommodate both scientific classifications and traditional ecological knowledge allows for holistic and inclusive data integration and reusable, so making data well described, allowing others to understand and reuse it. We can provide guidance on how to ethically and respectfully use the data, especially when it involves sensitive cultural or social information and address potential biases in the data and provide context for interpreting it accurately. For example, including a section in the data documentation that discusses potential biases in data collection and provides suggestions on how to interpret and analyse the data in a culturally sensitive manner. And we should provide clear guidelines on how to cite and attribute data in a culturally sensitive and respectful manner. So for example, including guidelines on acknowledging Indigenous communities or other cultural groups whose knowledge or data is being used in research while respecting their intellectual property rights. So remember that the care principles are meant to enhance the equity and inclusion while the fair principles primarily focus on enhancing the technical aspects of data sharing and reuse. By integrating these principles, you can create data sharing practices that are both technically robust and respectful of diverse communities. And as Levi Murray from the Indigenous Data Network who lead our improving Indigenous research capability program of work says, generally if it's good for mob, it's good for everyone. So now I'd like to hand over to Robert McClellan from the Language Data Commons of Australia to provide some insight into care and fair from an Indigenous perspective. So let's move over to you Rob. If I can figure out how to stop sharing my screen, there we go. Welcome everyone and hello. My name is Robert McClellan. I'm an industry fellow with the University of Queensland and I am also the program manager for the Language Data Commons of Australia. So thank you, Jenny, for inviting me to be here today. And I just want to say how exciting it is to be able to speak language, particularly in a language of vitalisation context. My community, I'm sitting here in Bundaberg on my own country here today, but in my community alone, we had that common misconception that language, if you only went back five or six years, we all had that common misconception that language was lost, language was somewhat say extinct, but it really shows the impact that can be made among communities when given access to data and data that is usable and to be equipped with the skills and the tools that we need as community to be empowered to start to make that change. So and bring back those cultural revitalisation practices. So I always think it's very important to try and embed language now wherever we are and be using it every day. So I think that's quite fitting in kicking off today's conversations and I'll probably echo a few themes that Jenny has already kicked off in shaping today's conversation. I'd also like to give a bit of a shout out to, I feel pretty technically savvy in that I've got on one of my screens, I've been able to view the attendees. I want to give a warm welcome to my colleagues, both at the University Queensland and the extended institutions from which you are joining and welcome you here for this conversation because I know that many of you are also part of the good work that is happening in this space. So thank you all for being here. So I'm going to tell you briefly just a little bit about the language data commons and I think that quote that I've shared with you up on the screen is probably fitting to kick it off. So the language data commons is many things to many people in particular, we identify a few different user groups. So looking at data users in terms of terminology is important and getting the right terminology. So I want to stress that but we look at data users in terms of people who are wanting or groups of people wanting to use their data. We're looking at the terms around data stewards or data custodians in terms of those who are responsible for that material. And then we're also looking at communities and what I found very quickly into the piece of joining Eldaka is there were many different interpretations of community when I was talking about community meaning very specifically in the space that I've come from being mob and indigenous community while there's also other language communities on the continent so-called Australia and also two research communities and what that extends into further. So the terminology has been a very important thing for us to focus on moving forward and I guess I won't go through unless we have time at the very end I won't go through some of the very specific aspects of the data commons because as I've said it's many things to many people but when we're looking at language material for Eldaka it's about finding securing collecting and organizing when it comes to the tools that we want to use and the skills that we also need to work with that language material well it's also about analyzing repurposing and training. So I guess our overall goal is seeing that communities as I've listed in front of you but also to mob are able to find their language material and use it now that's actually a very big task it's easier said than done and that's the journey that our team is embarking on but quite respectfully yet eager as well on that journey so very exciting bit for us but I guess we have learned a lot of things along the way and I'm hoping to share some of those things with you today so that communities can access their data and do what my community has done and even better in terms of language reuse and starting to socialize that again in in a in a cultural context I'll lastly say on this note that we are concerned with nationally significant language data and that in itself extends to a few different things such as you know um Old English Corpus um Oslang Sign Language uh Pacific Languages um also to Indigenous languages as well um and I will echo what Jenny has said and um our colleague Levi has also said in terms of the curb cut effect which I'd urge you all to to google and have a have a look um more around that that ideology around what what is good for a significantly marginalised group is good for everyone and so I certainly share with what Levi said what is good for mob is good for everyone which is why we find it extremely important that we send to First Nations perspectives at the forefront of everything that we're doing here with Eldaka so I'll just share with you um um just this this resource comes from GIDA which is the Global Indigenous Data Alliance so I'm just going to speak briefly to that as they define data sovereignty and they define data governance in the mainstream sense um in terms of you know Indigenous data sovereignty well that terminology has been out there in the literature since the 1970s um but there's been a resurgence of this language particularly in 2007 with the United Nations declarations on the rights of Indigenous peoples um and it's that one's about reaffirming um you know Indigenous peoples rights to self determination as political entities and honours the principles of Indigenous control over Indigenous data so there's a bit of a theme that has really come out with the work that GIDA has done um I guess the other thing I wanted to share with you around this was that the Research Data Alliance in 2017 acknowledged that there there are in fact um tensions between protecting Indigenous rights uh when and and the interests in data and supporting uh open data which Jenny has gone through with the fair um the fair principles so they then had other academic collaborations that came after that particularly notably in 2018 they had a Botswana conference and the participants there concluded that the existing frameworks that were around um were all oriented towards three things that was data people and purpose um and while they both I guess Indigenous and mainstream principles were identified um around I guess the data centric principles being the ones named in fair well they also noted that the Indigenous frameworks that existed emphasised the people and the purpose um oriented principles so that's where the care principles were then born I just want to maybe offer this to you to reflect on data sovereignty in the West in the the mainstream sense looking at it as the concept that information which has been converted and stored in binary digital form is subject most importantly subject to the laws of the country in which it is located well I'd like to maybe put it to you to reflect on data sovereignty and put it into this concept here where we look at um well it's quite easy to conceptualise data sovereignty in fact when we look at the map of Europe you would not go and ask people in France to comment on and design policy make policy decisions for those in Italy it would be completely inappropriate and that's not lost on anyone we we completely understand that and we can very easily see how data sovereignty would fit into this European concept as you see it fits into the continent of so-called Australia likewise here's the IAZS map which shows 250 different 250 plus different languages and potentially over 700 dialects of that language so I put it to you that the same must be said about indigenous communities here um acknowledging that they are heterogeneous um in nature not at all following the myth of homogeneity that we were once um taught about falsely in our country's history so acknowledging the diversity of those groups and how data sovereignty would work in the the context of this continent here this is the other thing I want to share the authors that talked about um particularly led by Russo Carroll um and many others the authors believed that um harnessing data for governance and acting in the governance of data while there was a relationship between the two so you've got governance of data and then on the other side you've got which well governance of data purely um occupied with those those decision-making processes and ways in which we are treating and managing data but also too on the flip side they have found it important to stress the data for governance which is a push towards this nation rebuilding ideology which is quite strong in countries like Canada the Americas um New Zealand namely all countries who are predicated on treaties with their First Nations people we are the only Commonwealth country here in Australia who does not have any treaties or you know any existing treaties with our First Nations people so it is a very it is quite in that sense a different context I think the language that we have been using for a long time for mob in this community around nation building um and that being a Western terminology itself we're talking about self-determination um not to say that nation building isn't what we should be going towards yes if we learn from those other countries it is it is a way that those um Indigenous communities can assert themselves in quite a strong point um I'll acknowledge to the work of Miriam Jorgensen I've got a book here from the University of Arizona who speaks very much in depth on rebuilding Native Nations and that's the name of the book I'd urge you to have a little look of that too if you are a governance nerd like me but I enjoy it it might be a bit heavy reading for some but it's great um the reason the the reason the authors involved in the Gida work um position this was because they believe that it shifts Indigenous peoples from invisibility within data ecosystems and it shifts them to more vibrant contributors to data policies practices ethics and innovation and I I think um this is where this conversation is going is how communities are asserting themselves in this space so um I'll share with you we have um I guess Jenny talked on the fair I'll talk a little bit more on the care look it's no secret historically early explorers linguists anthropologists and other researchers well they've all developed a reputation for collecting material and data in ways that are widely considered unethical in a modern day context so by Indigenous communities there are increasing levels of mistrust within large institutions both both Indigenous and non-Indigenous to handle data in a conscionable and a culturally responsible manner so Indigenous Indigenous research communities across the globe face these challenges and that was made very clear at the recent collections for data um collaboration which was held in Vancouver where we developed the the uh the Vancouver statement on managing data um so therefore we must aim to disconcert these existing collections methods uh the ones that do not support the security and the longevity of Indigenous datasets and we must move then to or one reframe institutional relationships with communities one that we're very cognisant of um as Eldaka being part of a large colonial institution um that is the reality of which we're working so that does impact the work and how we engage with communities um very aware of that and then two supporting the necessary reforms to enable communities voices to be included and to embed First Nations perspectives within the data lifecycle and decision making processes pertaining to those specific collections again very aware of that um it's sort of been said I'll just briefly touch on it that the authors of the the care um the architects of the care principles believe that that current movement of FED did not fully engage with Indigenous peoples rights and interests um and also to including you know creating value from Indigenous data um and grounding it in world views I wanted to stress that because I'm going to talk about that soon and realizing opportunities within the knowledge economy um so that was that was work led by Carol Airtel in 2020 and also to one of our um very own academics at ANU here Dr Ray Lovett was part of that process too so important to um acknowledge that but what they stressed in this was that it's not one or the other in fact they are complementary of each other you know the goal is for data stewards and other users of Indigenous data to implement care and fair principles in tandem um which we know and so these are more so ways about how we're sort of balancing them both the other thing that they stressed was that it must be done in full you can't just pick the C or the R it's got to be the C A R E you've got to do them all in their entirety okay the point about this slide is just saying that care did not come from nowhere there has been bodies of work that have been done different frameworks different analysis that have been um completely have been workshopped that the care principles have been pulled from um and I said to you before about the orientation the orientation of of the data that being data uh you know principles that were aligned with data people and purpose while this is this again I'm just expressing it through the table that is presented in one of the Carol uh Russo etel papers so if you look across the top um you will see the various different papers which were on the first slide that I showed you um you will start to underneath that you'll start to see some of the key themes that had come from that and you'll also see how they have been grouped into the ones that were associated with data the ones that were associated with purpose and the ones connected with people um I urge you to take a little screenshot of that and reflect on that because I'm going to keep on charging on forward got a lot of slides um okay so this was an interesting one uh in terms of the these are a better description of of the care principles um I don't want to go through them with you specifically because I'm just mindful of the time um I just want to say that the principles do have many applications from an LDACA standpoint I guess we are very much uh interested and concerned with like access authentication data management those kind of concepts but this has has been extremely applicable to everything that we do so I do want to share a few things that we're currently doing at the moment in terms of how we represent the careful fairness as described by today's session um look collective benefit was in is is extremely important um this one's talking about you know supporting indigenous groups community use and the reuse of data the use of data for policy decisions and the evaluation of services creation and use of that data and how that is reflecting community values the authority to control uh I wanted to talk about here again this was around indigenous peoples must have access to data that support indigenous governance and self-determination which is a critical thing in these uh Australian context um this is about mob using data to assert their rights in an everyday changing well in an ever changing modern society I suppose but it's also about the rights uh for us to engage economically and as it's determined by those 250 plus heterogeneous groups we do have the right to do that and we need the data to support it so we need to be consciously working um with that in mind um I want to share uh when we're talking about responsibility there is a responsibility also to nurture respectful relationships with indigenous people from whom the data originate um back in the day a lot of our um historical material lists um there are whole thesis uh well this you know thesis have been developed and doctorates have been conferred for non-indigenous people which contain mostly indigenous knowledges and those people who hold the knowledge have been listed as informants obviously we don't do that anymore but that point about nurturing those respective uh for relationships is particularly important and what I want to acknowledge on that front is western research time frames while they don't always align with the necessary time that is required to establish those relationships with communities and what that means is indigenous researchers who are faced with those challenges well this puts immense pressure on those mob who are working in this space to actually succeed in that western research environment so I want to also acknowledge those um indigenous researchers who are currently or have been in the past currently are or potentially will be working in that space in terms of what we are facing to succeed in a western research environment I think that's important to stress um I also want to acknowledge to oh well that's with the authors um also spoke about the aspects of the relationship including investing in the capacity development um and increasing community data capabilities and embedding data within indigenous languages and cultures well this is something that we're very much aware of we know that lack fella can't be what lack fella can't see and when we are faced with those challenges and succeeding with integrity in an ever-increasing conflicted world um even beyond the research space it can be quite a difficult job for indigenous people working in that space um but we can't truly represent those perspectives without putting indigenous people in those positions and working with them and those communities to increase their capabilities and see that they are starting to reflect the representational leadership needs that um we all need collectively um and also to just mindful uh on the other side of the coin we're mindful of overburdening mob but also to expecting them to volunteer the amount of times we set up um steering committees and just want to place mob on there because um it's beneficial or it ticks the boxes well this process if we engage with them in an inauthentic way well that process is considered black cladding that's what we call it and sometimes we we see organizations doing black cladding to satisfy funding objectives but is certainly not appropriate when we consider though the need for respectful relationships um as articulated through the care principles um again and ethics is talking about you know indigenous peoples um putting them in that position so that they are able to minimize harm maximize profit promote justice and allow for future use but in fact um it's that representation and participation um of indigenous people you know for them to actually discern and then assess those factors so that's the important part there we talked about the authors talked about worldview so I want to share this this uh that was that was within the literature but this particular framework is something that we have used with Eldaka um and it comes from Sarah and Williams so when it comes to indigenous governance the western governance lens often fails to accept appreciate that indigenous peoples of Australia managed to govern their day to day lives effectively for millennia while exhibiting the complete array of human intellect and also respecting the right of their neighbors across the continent to manage their societies with their own specific style of indigenous governance based on their law and law and custom Sarah and Williams argued that the western governance lens does not adequately understand the full impact that colonization has had on the indigenous human physical and sacred worlds they also articulated the critical need for trauma informed policy responses to be developed noting that western governance processes fail to acknowledge this um um I shared this one because this this was this was an indigenous worldview particularly balancing the three worlds uh in the notion the greater notion of balance and harmony so um seeing that when one was valued over the other and we fell out of balance and we fell into a state of disharmony what were the things that we would employ from a cultural governance perspective to bring about balance and harmony again for that longer sustainability this is coming from the longest you know longest living continue our longest continuous living cultures on our planet in terms of sustainability and and and that kind of worldview so I again I'm I'm sort of rushing you all through this because I am watching the clock but um that is an important thing to balance too happy to talk further about that if we get the chance but certainly something that was at the forefront of LDAC as planning which has then in turn influenced a lot of things that we've done moving forward um we had a reciprocal governance model which we um which we shared from the start you know around this these high level governance methods but what this was really speaking to was around that responsibility and ethics part of the care principles this has been guiding our team from the early days within the process and these three things are in reciprocity the point about me positioning purpose in the center was really built on the work of Simon Sinek the start with the why again I'd urge you to go and look up that as well um truly understanding why it is that we're doing what we do and noting that that why is going to be different for those different um user groups data custodians and communities that we're working with with LDAC a um a very large part of our engagement was uh well it was about a part of the project was about the engagement and the design um I'm actually not going to talk too much about this one because I'll push us over time but again this was a standard process looking at trying to shift us from an informed consult low level of engagement um trying to position us in a in a place where there was higher organizational impact yet understanding the higher level of complexity um but how did we do this in a way that wasn't so gammon you know we're looking at a I guess a bit more of a matrix and how we're putting people up into um into that higher module I do want to share this little quote I know Angie Abdullah who's a travel way um Aboriginal woman talked talked about design when she talked about that participatory um that participatory design concept saying that um she said we have to get beyond participation it immediately implies you are not leading and that's my biggest problem it has to be Indigenous led to ensure that Indigenous knowledge is respected the whole way um Indigenous services have to be driven by Indigenous people so she said as Indigenous communities have put it elsewhere we don't want to be consulted we want to be at the table so wherever possible how are we working in that top quadrant when it comes to Indigenous communities and representing those um those values so this was a way that we tried to really transcend those those um you know those standard levels and reframe it into a slightly more involved model um I want to share this you know we have our our DACA project steering committee which comprises of mostly the CIs or the Chief Investigators of the project um it is a cross institutional relation relational governance model where it is quite complex in that there are many there are many universities who are involved in the outcomes of our project who have decision making uh authorities with from a from a governance standpoint so it is quite quite a um interesting way um but how are we doing that Blackfella representation stuff how are we representing those various communities um those CIs are charged with the responsibility to make those decisions but how can we be assured that they are making the right decisions we are now coming into a a time in our if we take it from a social point of view we as mainstream Australians are going to make a decision soon in a referendum that impacts Indigenous communities you owe it to those Indigenous communities to be able to make an informed decision likewise these are CIs sitting on the steering committee owe it to those communities to be making informed decisions so we need to see that we have a governance structure that does the best it can be with the resources and the constraints placed upon us to represent those views we are establishing a communities board and we are establishing a scientific board as well where we can start to represent those views and be assured that we're making those informed informed decisions um which the management group then take direction from so that's one of those things um I want to share this with you this one directly involves communities um we if we are designing uh infrastructure that should benefit those communities well we need to back that by data we need to have the data to that um informs us and guides out the way that we work so we are doing um we are doing a call out for a quite a quite a comprehensive research project in terms of working out how communities are working with language data and what they're doing so I'm actually very excited about this one and um do see one of my a few my colleagues online who are working heavily in this space too so we're very excited about that um as to not assume that we know what's best and even as black fellas working in this space we ourselves cannot report to know what's good for communities we need to see that we have got that hard data there to support our decisions so just making that very important um and lastly too I just want to share um a little bit of an example that you'll see the care principles are broken into further sections but um I just wanted to acknowledge because I guess what what I what I was left with thinking about care was this is very easy to apply to new data but what was still unclear to me and I'm I'm wanting to have that wanting to be informed is what does this mean for how do we do this retrospectively or for historical data that's the that is a challenge that exists that um we're still sort of juggling with um as I say it's easy to do it for new data but I do want to give you one example and I won't do it justice but I do see um my colleagues online from the uq fryer library and I did want to just briefly share um a success story that I just thought was fantastic they have done this initiative called evaluating and respecting Aboriginal um and Torres Strait Islander knowledges and perspectives in uq special and research collections and what they've done is they've been able to go through and better describe um within the metadata structure which is supporting that accessibility they've been able to better describe some of the material and the collections that they have got in their collections but one of the things that I thought was pretty deadly was as I said before that indigenous knowledge is how that was represented and shifting you know black fellas from being just listed as informants shifting them to a position of co-authorship which is really how we would do that with new data um in this day and age that is the way we'd go about um creating those works but I just wanted to give them a shout out too because um I thought that was pretty fantastic and and I think they do have that available online for you to read through a little bit more thoroughly but with that I will probably conclude um so thank you for that thanks Robert um I think that we will take any questions if there are any there's nothing in the Q&A box at the moment Jenny well if anybody's got a burning question now's your chance to put it in the Q&A box I'll give people a few seconds then I have some that I put in the oven earlier someone okay question from John Brown do you have a link to the Vancouver statement that you mentioned yes I do and we do have it through the ARDC one um I'm yeah I'll find that and put it in the Q&A unless you've got it at hand Robert oh I can grab it I'm on there now okay okay so thanks for that John we'll make sure we get that to you uh any other questions that people would like to ask where I dive in with one of my own um okay Brittany Carter oh any thoughts on the use of traditional knowledge and biocultural labels and notices from local contexts um we we recently Robert jump in if you want to but recently we held a data licensing access and authentication for Indigenous data round table up in Brisbane it was our project partners and some invited guests we had quite an in-depth overview given of the TK and BC labels and notices I think it's important to mention the notices especially from a white perspective and we are going to be looking at carrying a pilot on applying the notices with a few collecting institutions and then hopefully creating relationships with some communities to work on the labels as well so obviously with the as you may know the the notices are really there for application by the collecting or the custodian of the material and the labels are to be applied by the communities that the material relates to so we do have a pilot in in process okay so John and I just wanted to just briefly just say on that front we're also looking from LDAC as point of view we're looking at piloting some work just specifically to Queensland around that to better understand it and see how its application would work in our context so we we really wanted to give it a good hard crack before we we made any further comments on it but we're committed to that okay so if I can just take that a little bit further Robert you mentioned the problem of applying care retrospectively is it going to be less difficult less fraught to apply TK and BC retrospectively or is it the the same cluster of issues well I I won't speak too much on it because we're bringing in a lead who knows far more and did a PhD on that specific thing so but as Jenny sort of alluded to in my understanding is when we're applying the notices that's quite a different process so I associate applying the notices to that retrospective material and then that I understand that to be the way of opening the process up to community to get them in to work with that material so in that regard applying care principles to retrospective data there might be a there might be a solution that lies within the TK okay notices yeah all right that's great Jenny we've got one minute to go I think we should probably do a wrap up sure um well I'd like to thank you Andrew for fielding the questions for as much as they were and thanks to Robert for his insights and thank you to everybody who came along and attended I hope you found it useful please feel free to reach out to myself or Robert if you can't find Robert's email address reach out to me and I can direct traffic his way I'm very happy to continue the conversation offline okay and how will we make the recording available Jenny slash Asha um Joe will make our wonderful comms team will make the recording available and if you've attended we'll send the link out to you afterwards but we'll also be sending it out to our mailing address you can sign up to the has an indigenous email if you would like to on the ARDC website excellent thank you very much thanks everyone all right thanks everyone