 Amazing. All right. Thank you. So I am calling the meeting of the town services and outreach committee to order at 702 p.m. on Thursday, November 16. I am vice chair and Anika's absence. I will be chairing the meeting tonight. So we have some folks joining us today. We have four attendees. So there we are. But before we get to public comment, let me check and make sure that everyone can hear and be heard. So let's start with Shawnee ball Milton. I am here. Thank you. Andy Steinberg. I'm here. Awesome. Dorothy Pam. Here I am. Glad to see you and Mr. Paul Bachman speaking. Oh my gosh. All right. We've got like a couple to assume meetings left. I would like everyone to come prepared to the next meeting with some unique form of saying they are present. I'm just kidding. I'm not allowed to have you do that. Athena, can you also hear and making sure we can hear you. Sure. Again. Thank you. All right, we're going to start with public comment, public comments on matters within the jurisdiction of the TSO committee are welcome at this time. Welcome to express reviews for up to three minutes and I will be timing. We are not going to engage in dialogue or comment on a matter raised during public comment and to participate, please raise your zoom hand and we will bring you into the room bring you vocally into the room. I'm seeing one person so far with their hand to whoa, hands are flying up. All right, we're going to start Jeremy Anderson. If you would, if we could bring you into the room if you want to unmute and you've got about three minutes to make your comment. Thank you. And welcome. Great. Thank you so much. Can you hear me? Okay. We can. Excellent. Jeremy Anderson 34 high point drive. First, just wanted to thank the TSO for bringing the safety zone matter forward to the town council. It's been a really just great and a really promising that this is something that our town can can enforce and hopefully have to address safety concerns throughout the community. In regards to a Cushman Scott specifically, and the creation of a safety zone there as well as additional traffic calming measures. So wanted to reach out and again, encourage the adoption of a safety zone for Cushman along Henry street. I'm a parent of two children who have attended Cushman one currently. And since my, my older son started at Cushman, it was apparent that traffic along Henry street was a major concern in February of 2020. I reached out to the town and the police after a child was almost hit as they ran away from their parent into the road. Thankfully, you know, the child was okay, but it really opened my eyes and a lot of the community members to attend Cushman and the neighbors to this safety concern that residents on Henry street have been asking the town to address for over 30 years. We were given a pile of emails pile of written letters that have been addressed to the DPW address to the town, various different offices to ask for help addressing safety. And this feels like a moment where we can address a long standing concern about residents on Henry street and address the safety concerns that parents have for their children. So, please consider adopting the safety zone along Henry street and implementing the traffic calming measures that were addressed in the memo by counselors Grissimer and D'Angelo's including speed humps and possibly a stop sign at the corner of Pine and Henry street as well. And thank you again for your help. Thank you, Jeremy. Um, all right, we're going to move to Tracy Zafian Tracy, you can go ahead and unmute and make your comment. You have three minutes. Thank you. Okay. All right, so I'm commenting tonight about the memo on the decision making and collaboration with town committees and stakeholders and also about tack. I mean, one of the topics the memo discusses is council collaboration with town committees and how it can be improved. So, I mean, I mainly am familiar with this from tax perspective. Tax current charge dates back to select board days and since the first council, it's been uncertain what tax rules should be and whether tax should even exist at all. During the 2020 after the COVID shutdowns, I was told that tack was only was likely to be discontinued and tack was kept as a committee, but there's still been quite a bit of confusion among council town staff and even tack members themselves about tax roll. And I believe that such confusion may contribute to tack often not being consulted on transportation topics before the council, even though tax advice has proved helpful in the past and informed various projects and policies. And tack not being consulted is a main reason that I have sometimes submitted comments speaking just on my own and not as part of tack because tack was never part of the conversation. I'm tack prepared a new draft charge in 2020 but it's not moved forward since then tack members are ready and willing to be involved and help advise TSO and the council on transportation topics. So tack was just talking about a tax meeting just before this one tack is really frustrated that we're not being used as a resource. And even wondering like whether it's worth tax time to even try to exist if we're not being used. You know, it's clear that topics such as road safety neighborhood traffic safety sidewalk speeding and so on on the minds of many residents and counselors as those topics came up a lot during the recent election season. So tack members have an interest in these topics, you know, we're committed volunteers and we have knowledge that can help inform the council and count and town decisions. So I encourage the council and relevant committees to include tax charge and roll, you know, on items to be list of items to be carried over to the next council. And although the council is also looking at the idea of a transportation commission tack may still be around for a while. So that seems valuable. I would also ask that TSO to also think about how tack can be used as an effective resource and what feedback it is seeking from tack. In the last council. Sometimes and tack TSO would often give tack a list of questions that it wanted tack to look at and to weigh in on. And that did allow tack to have a beneficial role and contribute to town transportation projects and policies. So that's the memo that we send out to the council with the when the new council started in early 2022. We just reviewed that memo at the tack meeting tonight and and we're basically going to send almost the same memo to the council again with a cover sheet because you know concerns we had then. And I think there's also just misconception about what tack is what tack can do how tack can contribute so thank you for your time consideration on this. Thank you. Exactly three minutes I'm impressed. Kim Tremblay Tremblay, we'll bring you into make your public comment. Yep. Thank you. My name is Kim Tremblay I live in the center of Amherst and did so with intentionality but we've been here for 17 years. We live right near UMass, and I'm a committed walker and biker and my kids can walk to their respective schools as well. And I'm also a member of tack, and I am also a professor at UMass a tenured professor with lots of really serious professional obligations as well as two children. I serve on tack, because I believe I've served on tack since maybe for the last 10 years. And I really believe in in in elevating the transportation network in our town. And I'm super frustrated with the fact that we are our expertise our collective expertise, like you all, we take time out of our professional days to meet as a meet as a committee. And we're not being used for our advice, but we're not being used at all and I am so frustrated by this, we are all ready to be done being tack members, because we're not being used. And because we have lots of other places we can be giving our time. And it's it. And as I say we're about to send a committee memo to our committee, and I am, I'm, I, I want to be used, we have so much professional expertise on this and we're passionate about this issue of transportation and sidewalks and walking and we're not being used at all. And I know you all are completely overworked you're doing like things outside of all your purviews for a ridiculously small amount of money. We're here to help our town we want to make things better. Use us. Done. Thank you, Kim. Marcus Smith, you can enter the room and you'll have up to three minutes to make your comment. Once you're in. All right, awesome. Marcus, go ahead. Yes, I'm Marcus Smith. I live in Amherst. I too am a member of tech and I'm just here to ask you to please guys make your mind up. Do you want us or don't you. Yeah, pretty much it. Thank you. All right, Marcus wins the award for shortest comment of the evening. Okay. Thank you Marcus. And I think Jeremy I believe is your hand still up from before or did you have something else you wanted to add. Sorry, sorry to raise my hand twice. I just, I wanted to also say in regards to Cushman. The town has done two studies so far one done by the police department. They found that the majority of traffic going past the school is going in excess of 25 miles an hour with speeds of almost 50 miles an hour being reported while the police officer was standing with with a with a radar gun. So this is a serious traffic concern, as well as a second traffic study by the town engineer in regards to the stop sign so hopefully those two studies can be provided in a timely manner, and make a decision for Cushman quickly. Thank you. Thank you, folks. Kim, I'm going to allow you to speak again because I allowed Jeremy to speak but really it's it's one to three minutes we can't, we can't kind of keep going around so Kim please make this your last your last comment thank you. And as a transportation advisory committee we've been getting comments from lots of people, because everyone has concerns you know our streets and our roads and our sidewalks are not in the greatest shape and there are lots of hazards. One of the things that attack has done is to help prioritize, help, potentially our counselors prioritize complaints because as you know, people who are able to complain are also people who have a lot of extra time. And these are, and it's not that their complaints are any less severe than other people who may not have the time to complain. It's a really universal way of, you know, collecting these and making an overall plan collecting complaints and making an overall plan is really a way of equalizing the voices of everyone. And I hope, and that's part of what tap does doesn't just let squeaky wheels, get what they need, and people all people need these things I need safety for my children too. That's all I have to say, thank you. Thank you. All right, we are thank you to everyone who made public comment. We are going to move on to town manager appointments. We have three appointments today to the affordable housing trust and one to the personnel board. Paul, would you like to speak to these appointments? I would. Thank you. So the first two are for the affordable housing trust you'll notice that these are the trust appointments are either or two year term so that's why you see one for one year one for two years just to keep the balance of the committee. The first person is Ashley Katango. She's a student at University of Massachusetts and the trust felt it was very important to have a student on the committee to voice the concerns about housing that students bring to the to the to the discussion. She is a building technology student. She has been involved by volunteering at battered women shelters and other other places and also she's really was impressed the interview team as being a person with with passion and interest in an interest in working with the town of Amherst to improve affordable housing. The second person is Gaston Dela Reyes. Gaston is a member of the licensing commission. He, I think the interview team felt strongly that he would bring a perspective of someone who is both a resident, a long time resident and homeowner in Amherst, but also a builder of affordable housing owner of rental housing and developer of affordable housing units. And he's an attorney is a professor and just brought a lot of legal background that the trust felt that was be very valuable to them. The second the third appointment second committee is the personnel board and on the personnel board if you read the charge there is a one of the seats is reserved for someone who will represent town of Amherst non union employees because they are the only ones who don't have representation by a collective bargaining unit. It's been very difficult for us to find someone to fill that seat former police chief Charlie Sherpa served in that on that seat for many, many years and he needed to get off this year. Fortunately, we had a recent person, a former employee who's now a former employee who's willing to take up the seat and fill that role and is going to be very valuable. This is Brianna Sundred, who is our former communications director. She's going to bring a lot of experience she has worked on a lot of the personnel manuals that we have. And so she's very familiar with everything I think the, the staff feels that she will represent their interests well. So those are my three appointments. Thank you. Are there any questions for Paul about any of those three appointments. No. All right, I will go ahead and make a motion. I moved that the town services. I'm making this without having pre written it so please send thoughts prayers and energy my way. All right, so I moved that the town services and outreach committee recommend to the town council, the town manager appointments for the affordable housing trust, Ashley. Gotongo for a term ending June 30th 2024 and Gaston de los Reyes for a term ending June 30th 2025. Second. All right, I'm going to call the vote. Shawnee Balmille. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Yes. North Pam. Yes. And I am a yes as well. All right, next one. I moved that the town services and outreach committee recommend to the town council, the town manager appointment of Brianna Sunred for a term of to the personnel board for a term ending June 30th 2026. Thank you, Andy. All right, we're going to go the opposite way this time. Dorothy Pam. I caught you. Sorry. Yes. Thank you. Andy Steinberg. Yes. And Shawnee Balmille. Yes. And I am a yes as well. Paul, thank you. See Brianna engaged and she can't, she can't get away. Thank you. All right, so we are going to move on to item four on the agenda, which is the proposal to establish a safety zone in accordance with MGL chapter 90 section 18 be on Henry street between Market Hill Road and Pine Street, and other traffic calming measures. This was, this was referred to us with input for seeking input as well from the transportation advisory committee. And we are asked for a report and recommendation by December 18, 2023. So, this was presented on Monday at the council meeting. And one of the things that came up, there were two motions in the packet and one of the things that came up is if you all remember when TSO discussed safety zones before. We discussed the adoption process for this. And so one of the things that we need to figure out is when we discussed the adoption process, it was, it was stated that the process was to adopt this provision of MGL and then develop the, the process by which we would create the safety zones. There are some things dictated by the state law, such as the engineering study that what the speed limit is, and some suggested areas, but I think one of the things that Paul had said in his memo to TSO, and Paul correct me if I'm if I'm doing this, please. Paul had talked about how it's the next step is to decide what the decision process is because the law doesn't necessarily state create that for us. And we want to make sure that we have consistency when we are creating when we are saying what a safety zone gets to be. So that's, that's the background Paul, do you have anything to add on on the background of that particular provision of MGL before I go to Dorothy's comment. No, I just would like to know that this is a counselor initiative. So this came from the district counselors, or so just be clear where it's emanating from. Thank you. So it's a little bit of, in my mind as we're discussing this, I want folks to keep in mind it's a little bit of two things kind of bumping into each other here and I think it's important for us to figure out what the timing of our process is going to be. Dorothy. I listened to that part of the discussion and felt overwhelmed with bureaucracy, understanding the need for it, but overwhelmed by it and seeing how that could drag on and on and on. And I will say that the history that has been revealed tonight that there's that suggests that we should do something if it's possible and this may not be possible to do something now on a temporary basis while we research and do and set up the process. I would like that I will particularly say that the example that was used today really got to me I mean I've been I've been on this issue but the child that ran into the street. I had one that did that more than once. It was always the same one. And there was never any warning, and you had to be as fast as you can be. And a friend of mine when her child did that on a much on a very busy street. She went into bleeding ulcers. Okay, so I'm saying this really a serious issue. Children do things that make absolutely no sense, because they don't know any better. And we have to at least give a sporting chance of a car going slower, even then it's dangerous. Okay, so if there's a way and I guess Paul would be the one who could answer on this to do some kind of temporary measure while we go through and get the procedure and dot the eyes and make sure that it is meets the requirements of the law. I would, I would like that. Thank you Dorothy. Yeah, I've also been around and had kids very close to me who have that same impulse regarding streets and traffic and it's terrifying. And your stomach drops out of your body. Paul, given that there have been. It sounds like to two different studies on this street is what Dorothy is saying feasible is there a way to do something in, whether it's in the intermediate or what I'm not sure but is there a way that we can implement some sort of traffic calming measure on on the street as given that it seems like an emergent issue in this particular location based on the police. Police presence is not the right word but. Yeah, so they did a speed study with an officer sitting there and doing what Mr. Anderson had said the town engineer looked at this there was it in the request for a stop sign did not meet any of the warrants and under the uniform manual for traffic control devices. It didn't have any of the not didn't have it didn't meet all the requirements and I can't speak to that because that's really the town engineer speaking to that in terms of the number of accidents and things like that. The experiences of people living there and dropping their children off is very real that we don't deny that. But when the engineer looks at, can we, you know, can we install new devices. If they don't meet certain criteria the engineer won't recommend it because it's not. It's an objective standard that he has to follow the council can look at it differently though. Shalini. Is this something we could send to tack formally as something they can study and make the recommendations to us. Yeah, so I think what I want to figure out is what exactly we're sending to tack and what we're asking because I think like there's tack can come up with recommendations but if the town engineer isn't able like isn't saying that it fits the plan and it's not helpful for for tack to have done that so I want to make sure what we're asking of tack is something that we can then do. If that makes sense right so that's, I think, yes this absolutely will will attack but and I also think that are like that that abutting issue of safety zones generally something that I think will want significant tack input on as we create those but I digress a little bit but I think if we just send this issue generally to tack without any. I think one of the challenges I understand that that the folks on tack feel is that there isn't like kind of the authority to to actually implement any changes right there and advisory body and so I want to make sure that we're saying like, here's what we like here are the bounds of what we can do can you make some recommendations within that. That makes sense. Is that. So, yes, and I think is the question of I want to. Yeah, and what is it we're asking you and it would obviously be within the parameters and that. Right. Right. Yeah, thank you Andy. I thought about it because we really do have the recommendation was made by several counselors. At least create a framework to know what our checklist of items is talk about. One question that I have a call if he has an answer to it and if not then we need to be interested in finding out a little bit more and that is that we've talked about that heard about for a long time that there are these standards for installation of stop signs. The standards standards that are advisory or they mandatory and because of their advisory then I think that it's the least information we need to know. And I put that out as a question but it's in the context of of the requests I think that it's the least important for the three. So, dropping of the speed limit is almost the easiest, but the problem with dropping the speed limit is that without some enforcement or some mechanism to make it real. Is it going to work which then gets into the question of the speed bumps, which, you know, itself actually does serve that purpose. It's referred to as a traffic calming device, but the question that somebody mentioned at the council meeting was the cost and that's one of DPW's hesitations and, but we have never had that quantified for us is to know what that is. And that fits in with the budget and what it competes with in the budget. So I think that we there are questions that we did we really need answers on it probably is not going to be one that we're going to solve, before the end of before December is possible, but this is that we're not talking about something as complex as a bylaw, but we certainly need least answers to those kinds of questions so we know what it is that the council can do and get the advice from the professionals about what it should do. Thank you. Yeah, I think my, my feelings on this are actually I am intrigued by Dorothy's idea of some sort of intermediary and I'm wondering Paul, if the results of the speed study might help us to kind of just justify the idea of putting in a traffic calming measure that we know we've used in the past, and, and then continue it to doing that speed study again in a year after we install say speed bumps. I hear Andy on the on the cost element and I think that one of the things that I'm also thinking about is, it's really tough to like what I'm pitching is, is, I almost don't want to pitch it because it's going to take more time, which is that this would be a really good fit for a resident capital request through CPA right for something along the or not through CPA through JCPC. Right, but that's, we're now talking later in the cycle. So, I want to, in terms of what to ask tack for recommendations on I do think that it would be interesting to hear their perspective on what what traffic calming measures might be effective there, but I'm not sure Paul if you think that that's you know, it is that something that the town engineer would want to hear from tech and from us right is that going to be taken. Not that Jason skills wouldn't wouldn't take anything, not seriously but you know what's going to be helpful for for that. Because I do, I do feel the concern about waiting until we've established the regulations and then gone through the budgeting process to add things and done more studies. I'm trying to reconcile these two things and I'm having a hard time with it in my head so I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to do what Dorothy saying given that I guess you haven't shared with us with the results of the speed study were specifically. If that was deemed to be a concern by the police department, could we put in some rec, ask tack to recommend what calming measures might be cost effective and speed effective, and put those in for a year study the speed again. And then at that point hopefully we'll have the safety zone structures in place and we can go from there. Yeah, so to answer Andy's questions first, town engineer does not recommend a stop sign this town council does they have the privilege of saying we still want to stop sign so you can have that authority the way I understand it. Again, there have been I mean the residents who are bringing this forward have extreme frustration with the process. And, you know, I think, I think what their concern. If I were in their shoes, you know, and I heard now it's going to be, you know, take even longer. It's going to be frustrating, but I think the concern from the town staff point of view is that, you know, is it, are we going to handle every one of these as a one off, like, is there going to be a problem once this happens, are we as you know you there are dozens of areas who want speed speed bumps and if you're going to, you know, everyone is a compelling argument, do you have a process. I see this as an opportunity to run something through the process as a sort of a pilot, see what happens see how it works, use, you know, have real time decisions for this group, because it's not. This is, you know, this is queued up and that you have to counts or sponsors who brought it to the table. You know, there are a lot of other things dynamics to be taken into consideration which I'm not, you know, here to I think you should. If you want to talk about it this meeting or attack you should decide where you want that conversation to happen I think you really need the town engineer to be present to have the conversation you need the residents to have a voice. And the conversation, like an active voice, like, it's not just public comment. That's not what happens in this meeting tonight. You know, there's also the, the kushman school is looking at some other options possibly which is, you know, the issue is parking is on one side of the road and in the schools on the other. Is it possible to take out that conflict, which is the person crossing the road without a crosswalk. And, and then is there parking available I know the school is saying like, they will look look into that legitimately. You know, we've looked at other options is like sort of crossing guards to help people cross. There were some legitimate concerns by the parents saying like geez I don't know if I want to take on that responsibility and also conflict with drivers because it doesn't mean people can be rude when they drive and they have to slow down a little bit. So I think there's very real concerns. It's, you know, it's but we don't have a true process other than the engineer saying doesn't meet the criteria or not. Other issues involved with it's not just about putting in speed bumps it's sort of what's the condition of the road what would it take and is this where you want to put your, your highway money, your paving money. So those are all questions to the council I think the goal tonight would be like where how do you want to handle this do you want to give it to tack and say come back to us with a recommendation. And then you want to, it's just how you want to know how the council wants to approach this. And this, you know, this won't be the last one. So, but I think it's worth it to run this one through, don't, don't try to come up with an objective one let's run this one through the process and see how it feels to the counselors. The issues that we don't have the process yet right and so the problem is that we have to create the process and then run it through it and now we're talking like a whole long time. The folks that I think are frustrated and, and I think my follow up question to you is, what, when you just said, if we want to recommend it to tack in your mind what were you thinking we'd be recommending. So the council action for Monday is that is asking for input from tack already. Yeah, I, yeah, that's fine. I mean, that's the council action and we can send the motion along as written I just I feel like we should be giving tack a little bit more direction because that I'm confused based on this memo right because this the or the motion acts is saying that we should implement something that we don't have a process for yet and so I think that's why that's where I get stuck in that loop. Anyway, Shalini. I think we can ask that specifically for a short term recommendations for, and I think you've mentioned that I know that that while we're figuring out the process, can they offer a short term mechanisms for slowing speed what was it slowing down the slow speed is a word for that coming. Yeah, traffic coming. And so just as an example like in Hawaii they had these on the crosswalks they had these railings that were placed this way so it felt like when you're coming from far like it's closed but it's like it slows down the cars. So that's just an example it may or may not work here but just like that I'm sure tack and figure out some temporary calming measures while TSO figures out what that process will look like. So that's one thing but the other thing that came to my mind was the question raised about how do we prioritize that money is the speed bumps here or somewhere else in town and so that makes me think again in the future for the TSO to work with the impact to do an overall study of safety in the whole of the town if that's a possibility. So just to keep that in mind because that would not only attend to the squeaky wheel but make sure that, you know, we're really doing this in a systematic way and understanding where people are feeling safe and they're not feeling safe. One more time what is it that you'd want tack to do? So we had briefly mentioned that maybe or maybe I didn't okay so the idea was that and that tack and TSO can work together to do a systematic study of people's experience of safety on the road and that would include pedestrians, bikers and so and cars and so that might include lighting issues that might include speed issues and all of these other issues that are there but that's like a more comprehensive. So I'm just saying that's like for the future future but in the short term I think it'd be good to ask tack within a certain time period to provide us with temporary calming mechanisms and Paul if you can provide certain criteria within which like what Anna was saying what is the, you know, within which they need to operate is it financial or legal or whatever like if you can provide them that the boundary conditions within which they need to make those. Yeah. Paul I'd love to hear your thoughts on this but Shalini when you were talking about the boundary conditions I mean it would kind of be your checklist, right? In a lot of ways. Yeah, we could definitely go through the checklist and that may raise some of them but in terms of from Paul's side are there any anything that's already known so you know tack doesn't come up with like oh we can do this and then we say oh but we can't do that because of, you know so are there any legal or already financial or any other constraints within which we're asking tack back to make recommendations. It's okay so I think what you're saying is whoever this conversation happens the town engineer needs to be part of it so he knows the legal piece of it like did. Yeah. I agree with that. Okay. Paul any other thoughts before I go to Dorothy. Not right now. Dorothy. Amherst is a small town. This is not a very complicated request and as we add layers of complexity to it. It is more frustrating and it makes people lose faith in the town. I just feel great frustration that the small project is being raised. It's a business. If parents decide perceive rightly or wrongly that it's not safe, that business can close. I think the town is interested in keeping businesses. So we have two reasons children safety and and keeping a business going I think that's plenty to do something it's making a speed bump is not like a big deal. It shouldn't require studies and and all kinds of commissions and whatever to do that. If we're that inflexible then there's something seriously wrong. So yes you do need to get the process straight, but you shouldn't be straight jacketed unable to move and do things which common sense dictates, because then the people aren't going to even talk to us at all. So, I would say we should do something. I mean Dorothy we are the ones have to get the process right. I think I think that, you know, we should do something. I'm saying. Thank you. Yeah, well, first of all, I want to remind Dorothy that we're not a small town. We're in fact the biggest municipality in Hampshire County. But that said, I think that you are absolutely right that we shouldn't delay request that involves children safety. And that it should be given some priority for consideration though. I don't know what the cost is of putting in the speed bump. But I know that our department. Works is going to be ready to answer that question for us. And it's going to translate to what's the equivalent and how many. What kind of repair might be done in another street to think that it is going to come out that the amount of street that it's going to be repaired will be larger than the speed bump but I don't know how much larger than the speed. And they're the ones that can tell us that because we are making every time we make a decision like this there is a cost consequence. I do think that if money was no object, I would be absolutely right on board with saying that there needs to be two speed bumps on either side of that school. So we need to drop the speed limit, but dropping the speed limit without the speed bumps is going to make it very difficult to really make it real because it's sort of like what Hadley had on one of its roads that's I can't remember the name of the road going that runs up by the lovey on the north side. You know they couldn't get the speeds down there until they put in speed bumps. And, you know, being the counselor who lives very close to the kushman school as I said the other night. You know, just on the other side of the kushman store that I know that intersection well it was done it for 40 years and my kid used to go to school and he was a preschooler so I'm well well aware of the problem that the parents are talking about. And so I'd like, if we could get that information as quickly as possible I would like it. I'm willing to look at the stop sign question, but I'm somewhat skeptical, knowing that intersection and how frequently I use it that the stop sign is the big action that's going to really reduce speeds. I really believe that it's a matter of posting it so it's enforceable and speed bumps that are going to ultimately have these desired effect of slowing the traffic down there. And I think we owe it to the fact that it is a safety zone, and it is a children's take care center to at least get the steps of getting the information that is needed. So that we could, we know what we're talking about as opposed to asking these questions in the hypothetical. Right, so I want to move us along because we have a lot of other things on the agenda, and because I think we're kind of nearing a spot where at least I'm starting to see several pathways and I want to throw them out there and see what folks think. One, we keep saying speed bump speed bump speed bump. We also are not the transportation advisory committee maybe there's some other magical thing that they might think about right so we also think there also might be a way another more even more than a very method like a radar sign right that we can try. So, the, I think that what I'd like to pitch to the committee to see what general thoughts are, are if we for this particular issue. For Cushman specifically not the, not the safety zones generally but for Cushman specifically, if we send the motion, I can send what was sent to us to the chair of TAC and say TSO discuss this what we would love to hear are if you have thoughts on both temporary and permanent traffic calming measures for the street, and we would like you to do this in consultation if Paul allows because we can't ask this but if Paul allows in consultation with town engineer Jason Skeels, we'd like you to have that discussion and report back to us. We still aren't going to get this back to the council by December 18 I don't think so we'll but what we'll have to report back if this is okay to do will report back that this is where we are with it. And what we're waiting on that was my first thought my second thought is that we're going to talk about the carryover memo later but the general. My concerns and it's actually has nothing to do with Cushman Scott. It's just when we whenever we do. One thing, like a kind of this like special order right it sets a precedent and while Cushman Scott is absolutely an incredible candidate for significant traffic calming measures. There are folks who feel that their neighborhood might be as well, even if it doesn't have a day care even if it doesn't even have speeding. I do want us to make sure that the carryover memo emphasizes really working working in collaboration with tax to establish the provisions for safety zones. Because I, I can justify Cushman Scott being an exception because of how it's come up before because of, you know what we're putting into place but it really, it really worries me to do things one off because that it sets a terrible terrible precedent so those are my two pitches and I'm curious if folks have thoughts on that including Paul if you're like no one that's not legal don't do it I'm always happy to hear that message before I step in something not legal. Any thoughts on on those two kind of two pronged approach. No thoughts everybody loves. Oh, Shawnee sorry your hands and with the thing behind the invisible I know I'm invisible. Unless Paul when did you say something but I would like to move to the first first thing that you said we should move to that if it's okay to move it move to send it to attack for recommendations on the short term and longer term and maybe the short term could be sent back to us sooner, because the long term might take more might be more involved. And within consultation with the engineer. Okay. Can I try to clean up. Can I try to please do it was your words I was just trying to read. Thank you I appreciate any other thoughts, and then I'm going to. I just want to say that Jeremy in the audience has his hand up so can we just let him know what are his options are. Sure, I don't, we public comment is over. So I think that if the if the committee would like to. Okay. But oh wait, there's more. I wanted to say public comment is over at this point. Um, but if if the committee would like to take it and I want to remind folks we have significant other things on the agenda. And I do feel that we've come to a decision that the committee would like to know if people would like to reopen public comment I can allow up to one minute for commenters that would like to speak. So, I'm going to one minute one minute and I'm holding you to it. Um, if we can bring Tracy in for for one minute that'd be great. My comment is really brief at today's tack meeting we did talk about the referral of the proposal to TSO, you know, with the request for input from tack and based on our discussion, including with the DPW superintendent, we were under the impression that further studies required, based on the statue in order before implementing zone, like in traffic safety zone so I mean you're welcome to refer things to tack with that was the impression that we were left with and so it would be helpful to hear from the traffic engineer on that so thank you. Tracy and to clarify this would be outside of this wouldn't be classifying it technically as a safety zone because of what you just said, because it doesn't have that the technical study that it would have needed I believe that because the engineering study was limited to the stop sign. That's not the type of engineering study on the road that was dictated in the in the statute. Um, so this would not necessarily be designating it a formal safety zone because we don't have the process to do that yet. This would be implementing separate traffic calming measures that's my impression. Thank you. Yep. Jeremy one minute holding you to it. When as soon as you I'll make it fair I'll wait till you're in the room. Jeremy you got one minute go ahead. Great. Thank you. Thank you all for your comments and really for thinking about this, you know, from, from every angle, I just want to reiterate again this is a child's daycare is these are small children. This is safety that we're talking about. I understand that, you know, I'm, I'm passionate about this. And this is hard for me to not think about little children getting hurt. We've gone through every hoop that the town has asked us to. We've met multiple times with the town manager. We've met with town counselors. We've had an engineering study done. It included not just the stop sign, but rows up and downstream from it. We had the good graciousness of the police department they came they've been there multiple times. They've gone above and beyond. It was the police department who recommended the stop sign. They saw the conditions on the street. They saw how fast cars drive through there. And they said, we need to do something. They also recommended making it a one way street to reduce traffic congestion and to reduce to create a safer environment. So our department is thinking that's how dangerous this is. Why can't we recommend something today to move this forward to protect our children. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so for, for what it is worth I think what we are attempting to do is that in the in the way that this committee best can. The motion that came to us included a referral to the transportation committee and so we want to make sure that we are going with with that motion as well. Shalini your hand is up in policy you unmuted. Sometimes that means you. Oh, yeah, Paul go please. Paul can go ahead first. I have nothing to add. I'm sorry. I was just going to say that in the spirit of not keeping up policy of not responding to public comments so I'm just speaking to the committee that the reason why we want to attack and not police I think police is good in what they do, but I think for example a one way street that is known to increase the speed of cars in my understanding and that's why we don't want the safety related to speed and roads to come necessarily from one place like we want this multiple approach where the police is looking at their angle and then you have the engineer traffic and you know our DPW engineers looking at it, and what they think, and we need tech who actually studies rose safety and so forth to look at what will actually reduce the safety which is why we do I mean we cannot make a decision today I'm sorry, because it might actually end up causing more harm, and we do need to bring in experts like that we do have like pack and so we should definitely take a vote today to send it to them. If possible. All right, Dorothy I'm open but we've thought we'd landed on a motion so go ahead and then we'll go from there. I just want us to stop and think for a minute what it means if a group has actually had an engineering study had recommendations has been working on this all the time and nothing happens. It's just not acceptable. We have got to deal with this in a positive manner quickly. That's it. I think it's definitely. It's challenging sometimes to have to go through some of the processes that we have to go through and I, you know, I commend Paul for offering up his staff's time to work on this I think that there are people that have needed to be in the room that haven't been in the room to discuss this and so I know that I know that I don't think we will ever be as fast as people want us to be. And I think that in this case I think that we're we're taking the fastest step that we can it sounds like in my in my opinion. I think what I'm hearing from Paul is I know that there was the engineering study and what I'm also hearing is that it wasn't covering the things that we needed it to cover in order to do this in order to implement some of the things that they might want. And so I think that's where that's why Jason needs the town engineer Jason skills needs to be in that room having a conversation. I would like to move to refer this to tack for recommendation I know that they don't meet again until December 14 and we're supposed to bring this back to the council on the 18th. We will not have it back to the council because they then have to bring it back to us. So this will be something that's going to need to likely go on the carryover memo. In my opinion, but what we can do right now is ask for tax recommendation. It feels tough to ask them to turn it around in one meeting but do you all think that that's what we should be asking for given the timing or do you think I don't have I'm trying to pull my calendar up in front of me. If they meet on the 14th and discuss it. When do we think that we should be asking for a report back. The holidays mess everybody's schedule. That's part of the process I think we need is can we make that decision without consulting with that. I think we can give I don't necessarily think one meeting is, is fast. Yeah. I think that's where I'm stuck so I think if I'm assuming they meet every two weeks. Correct that you're the the tack liaison is that correct. They'll so they'll meet the 14th and then December 28 as well, likely. So I think that we could say. But at that point just to be clear by the next time that TSO meets it will be a different TSO will have it and we'll need to wait until the council president points committees. So I think that what we can ask what why don't we do this why don't we ask for a report back by. After their next meeting on the 14th and if the report is that they're not done then that's what the report is right. Does that make sense. Yeah. And meanwhile, can we ask maybe Paul is there it can be put at police there or something to ensure the safety and then there's going to be vacation time hopefully. So it'll be fine but during the school time till that comes back and we provide additional safety. The acting chief has been putting officers up there if they're available during that, you know, it's basically a couple twice a day when this is an issue. It's not 24 hours a day. It's when it's a drop off and pick up and then that's extended because there's staff coming in earlier and stuff like that. So, and I think they try to go up there periodically when they can. Okay, another thought and I don't know if this is within the purview of Christ, but I wonder if Christ responders can stand with its signs to slow down or is that not within their. That's not within their purview. Okay, I'm going to make a motion because we need to, we need to move on. And, and I think we're going to start going in circles pretty soon, if we don't. So, Paul, Mike, I have a Athena, if you're with us, I have a question. Do I have to refer the exact motion if what we're asking for is somewhat outside of the motion because we're not asking them to establish a safety zone. We're asking them for recommendations on traffic calming. Do I have to refer the exact motion. You're asking if you have to refer the exact motion of the council made. Yeah. You can just ask of attack for input. Okay, thank you. So I move that the town services and outreach committee request. Recommendations and input from the transportation advisory committee regarding traffic calming measures on Henry street between Market Hill Road and Pine Street for a recommend for. Do back to us by December 18. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Second. Thank you. December 18 is the last council meeting, not the last TSL meeting. Is that what you wanted? I was picking the Monday after to try to get a report back, but I, there isn't, there is no way unless tax schedules, a special meeting. To get it before council is done. Right. And then the last. I mean, TSO's last meeting is the seventh. So it's going to have to be after the establishment of the new TSO committee unless you're asking. Tact to report to the council. I mean, it doesn't make sense to say. Yeah. Okay. Athena, do you, what do you recommend? Given the awkward timing. Um, you can ask them to report by the 18th and they can send something to the council, but it doesn't make sense to send it back to TSO. Because there won't be a TSO. There are TSL meeting schedules after. Okay. So, um, If they send it back to the council, then do we need to, then the council would be able to take a vote, but the council would have to then create the recommendation or just approve the recommendation. No, just, just ask tech for feedback. Let's keep it really simple. Ask them for feedback. Tracy, I noticed that your hand is up, but I'm just worried about getting into deliberation with the committee unless it's a scheduling. So maybe we can ask Tracy to just tell us about scheduling. This is housekeeping and not an OML thing. Okay. Thank you. All right, Tracy. I mean, it's the scheduling thing. I mean, I can see if people are available to meet on the last day of November, you know, the 30th, which we hadn't really considered because typically things are not being referred to as, as you heard people say. So we thought that we were kind of home free and the 7th is like the beginning of Hanukkah. So we were trying to stay away from that. So that's how we got to the 14th. But I can see if tech members are available. The last day of the month in November, we could get something to you sooner. But I would also in order for tech to provide feedback like we would also need to get information from the town engineer and stuff. I wouldn't feel comfortable if we didn't have those things at hand when we're talking about this issue. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Tracy. Paul. Yeah, I can make sure all that information gets to tech. There's a lot of information available. All right. So what I'm going to say is that Tracy, I think you're going to see if folks are available. I'm going to make a motion to, I'm going to, I'm going to amend, I guess I have to amend my motion. The dates on my motion under the assumption that you will call a special meeting of tech on the 30th of November. And therefore would get something back to TSO before our meeting on the 7th. Is that right. So I'm going to work under that assumption. And for some reason. That shifts all you need to send in is that tech didn't meet and didn't discuss it and we'll, we'll carry it over to the next council. Okay. All right, so I'm going to amend my motion, the new motion language, I think, because I don't remember what I said the first time is to refer to the transportation advice that the TSO committee. Refer to the transportation advisory committee input and recommendations regarding traffic calming measures on Henry street between Market Hill Road and Pine Street to report back to the TSO committee by December 7 2023. I think you still second. Hopefully didn't screw that up too, too badly. Let's go to a vote here. I'm going to try to switch it up this time. Andy Steinberg. Yes. North Pam. Yes. Charlie Balmone. Yes. And I am a yes as well. Okay. Done. We're going to move on. Oh, okay. So thank you all that was a, that was a whirlwind. Let's move on to number five just so just a preview of the agenda here. We've got the amendments to bylaw for refuse collection and recyclable materials. The outreach proposal approval of minutes and then we're going to talk about the carryover memo. So we've got about an hour left. So we're going to, we're going to try to push through these quickly. I'm saying that mostly to myself and to Shalini as the two folks who are talking about the next four things. So, Shalini, take us, take us home. Are we doing the waste holler first. We're going to start with 3.3 refuse collection and recycle. Okay. Yes. So I am preparing a memo. And the purpose of that memo will be to position the next DSO with all the background information, the history of everything that has gone down, including our work with them to mass DPs. So we have those discussions and our discussion with the sponsors discussions with zero waste to be include all these different perspectives in the memo, along with support from Board of Health and what needs to be done in the future. So we need to discuss need for regulations. So all the requirements that the next steps that need to happen to put this into implemented and adopted and implemented. All of that, and it will be accompanied with the recommended by law. And then the table for decisions that need to be made, like what questions need to be answered by who, and, and they think and links to past research. So it's not overwhelming as you said, like 180 pages, I don't want to put it all in one file, but put the research into a separate file so that's like if people want to go the best practices and that will have all the different cities that we looked at and what are the different ways that they're doing that. Oh, yep. That's, that's that and I don't know. Yeah, question. So, so with the research, I think, Sean, if you're open to it I think what might be particularly helpful is if you're able to distill kind of what the main takeaways are from each piece because they're they're really interesting pieces of research but even for a new council I think it's a lot to, they're going to want to know best. That would be my only ask as a, as a. Yeah, and so the best practice and that's what so the decision table will have the best practices so there'll be options like the paid model here are the questions for you and here are two options for paid models at these towns are using so you don't have to But if anyone wants to go and see what else are they doing or who's doing. So all of that's going to be so I pulled from there in the decision table and also added it to the bylaw the recommended bylaw. Yeah, thank you. So basically, Shawnee what I'm hearing is that you are, this is prepped to go into the carryover menu. I keep saying carryover menu like I consistently said carryover menu every time that I'm talking about it. Carryover memo, and that you are preparing a very comprehensive packet for the next TSO to pick it up and run with. Yes, and then try to give you all as much time as possible so hopefully before Thanksgiving like Monday or Tuesday, I'll send it out at all these documents, because also need time to get feedback from the sponsors. We would be voting it as part of the carryover menu memo. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. My face is up myself. Okay, all right. Thank you. Yeah, sure. Any other anything else if anyone things needs to be added. I mean, we'll have the discussion so you can tell me that. Okay, so moving on to the other thing. Where is it. Gosh, where did I put that. Okay, I'm just trying to find my memo. I don't know. I'm sorry to send it so late, but it's funny story and true story that you know I've been coming to TSO with this elaborate document for decision making and community engagement it was like about 20 pages long and then I met with Paul yesterday and he asked me, what is the problem you're solving for. And that was kind of the point of the whole checklist was to leading with what is the problem we're solving for and here, even I did not follow the advice that I was offering you all. And that is just to say that which is why we need a process because even when when we're doing these things and there's so many different competing needs that we're going to forget to ask certain questions that are really important. Dorothy. I'm probably going to be speaking a little bit counter I read through your questions and they're all good questions. So I think it's important that we all have these questions, but I really am against overly bureaucratic processes, which say you have to do all of them. But I do think a reminder now and then check out your questions because there's always one or two that haven't been done that might be really interesting and relevant to ask but I'd like to leave it more fluid that way. Absolutely and this is meant to be a guide and not like oh you have to answer every single question, but I want to actually start with the memo I don't know if you all had a chance to read the memo because I really simplified it to two pages that 17 page document. And the question was really what are the problems you're trying to solve and one we've already heard from tag today is the one of the problems that this proposal is solving is to have a clearer process for how we want to collaborate with the town committees and so that we're really utilizing the expertise that exists and it's clear for everyone what to ask for what is a timeline, who is going to ask for that, because we've seen that like different people are asking for different things from different people and it's been kind of very chaotic, and it's okay because remember we're still a very new form of government. So that is the number one problem we're solving for the second one was training staff and town counselors. Without having a clear process for prioritizing everyone like we want to encourage counselors to come up with initiatives and provide them a very clear process for what, how to present and that I think would make it easier for people who have not so far proposed new formulas because it's so overwhelming and you don't know what's going on but if you provide a very clear document that as a sponsor here are some of the questions that we would like you to address in your memo. And then it gives the town council an opportunity to have that conversation. So we prioritize that based on feedback from town staff so one of the things that we that I feel we put Paul in a difficult position is when we like what do you think like, and he's like, sure we'll do it. I was just asking for the town manager just open questions they're very directed questions which are objective that based on the town staffs current projects. What is the timeline for them to be able to approach this and so you're asking them specific questions are not like should we do it or not because it's hard for town staff to say no to counselors, but if you're asking very specific questions from the town staff around. What are some legal requirements around this what are what is the town staffs availability and resources, and that will give us very concrete information for the town council to decide whether it goes to the committee or not. So, I know. Thanks. So, Shawnee, I don't have an issue with anything that's in the proposal my issue is, is, is with the motion and I think it's actually an issue that Dorothy has. I think it's just about what you would think about this instead of because what I'm stuck on is is in a sound so silly, but I'm stuck on what is the word adopt mean, because I think that where where I get worried is if the motion as you have it written says the town council adopts the three checklists. And that for me reads as it is required to use in all decisions always. And I'm curious about, and I don't, I don't think that that is, I think that's going to discourage counselors bringing things forward because of how much there is in there. Because they're bad questions and not because we shouldn't be answering them but then again it's like how do you have to demonstrate the answer them so my question is, is this something that we could that we could vote to recommend be given to to all new counselors as part of an orientation as, as like that, because I think that they're good. It's a good introduction to thinking through community process and community engagement process, excuse me. And so, but I really do, I have concerns and I, I can't support just blanket adoption because that reads is imposing an incredible amount of additional work. So, I wanted to pitch that as I was reading and I was like, gosh, this would be really this would have been really helpful on like you know week one. And I, and so I'm curious if it's something that we could adopt as part of a, as part of the information given to new counselors or something like that. Here's the response to that I hear what you're saying. And if you'll remember, as part of a retreat, we came up with this process with the facilitator that awesome facility that you brought. And we had come up with the process and how often did we use it. Never. That's why it needs to be and I'm willing to work somewhere in the middle of like we came up with the process and many and this whole process is actually based on that process that we had come what is a problem you're solving for, who is it impacting. And so it came from there but my fear is that if you don't formalize it and it doesn't have to be rigid. If you don't formalize it, it's going to be lost and we're not going to use it. So the CRC has the checklist and even though we haven't done a great job of it. But it's something that was adopted that when we have a proposal we're supposed to look through the checklist and, and it's used in a very loose way so I'm willing for it to be started in a loose framework, but specifically like we heard with committees. We do need to formalize that like have a process for asking formally for recommendations, giving a timeline what, you know what do we want one feedback on, I think that needs to be a formal process. So can we hear from, did you want to respond to this and then. And mine's a longer comment so Andy can go first. Okay. Now I'd be curious to comment but I'm going to be, I'll try to be quick. You know what are defined in the beginning of the memo about the three problems, I think are real problems, and that we need real solutions and that is in Shalini is come up with the possibility for real solutions. And I'm hesitant to just pull a plug if there's not an alternative, because I think that we know from the experience of recent time how much time it is taken with the number of bylaw and policy referrals that have been made to committees and how bogged down that we have become in them, how much staff time it's taken in them. And the fact that a lot of them are ending up in a carryover memo within action. Anyway, and the question of community engagement becomes very confused because in part, we've lost staff we lost Brianna. So the engage Amherst piece is gone. And some of the things that have been tried by CRC have been very intensive and expensive. And for all of those reasons, I think that this council has been bogging itself down because it is failing to make decisions early. And it is letting everything go to this very long time consuming process that is eating our resources and eating staff resources. And if we don't do something like what Shalini has put forward, we're not going to solve that problem. Okay. Thank you, Andy. And can I just respond to that? You know, I appreciate everything that you said Andy that was kind of the spirit of where I was coming from. And I'm completely open to making it more flexible so it can be both and where we do have a process but not like oh let's just give it to orientation and then trust everyone like I created this process and I forgot to answer the question I was asking L of us to address. So without having a systematic process, and they can be flexibility within that what questions we're going to ask, but without having a process for the town council to decide based on the urgency of the issues at hand and the resources, it becomes awkward for counselors to question. And it becomes awkward for town staff to say hey we don't have the capacity right now for this can we put this down three months from now or six months so it's not saying that no we're not going to do it. But where does it lie on the priorities and when should what is the timeline. So we need a process for that or we are, I am burnt out and I know many other counselors are and most importantly our staff is burnt out and when we talk about this is going to be time consuming, I would disagree because we have seen that in the absence of a process, we do something and we spend a lot of time and then we come back three steps because we missed out a few steps. So this is going to help us move in a more systematic manner. It's the word process that worries me. That's an order, we already have a process which I totally can't keep track of it goes to this committee that committee comes back second hearing third hearing and then with this time we have the public that time we have it. I don't have that set. It seems to change and I have no idea why. Then you add this to that. I see it as complicating it more. I liked it when you said, at the beginning of each new action. Everyone reads the list. I see that. Okay, that's certainly more than just. I also like having an orientation, but you're right. Orientation is one frame of mind. But to have it as a process which means you do this then you do this then you do this. I don't like that because then nothing will ever get done. Okay, we don't have to call it a process you can call it a checklist that people can look at. Yeah. The checklist I like. It's a reminder. It's a reminder, and then people can decide which aspects seem to be the most important for this because everything is kind of different. Absolutely and not every question in fact there'll be other questions because this may not apply but it'll prompt other questions that are relevant to the topic. Yeah, Anna. So I'm trying to figure out an alternate an additional way to make it because I think what I'm struggling with is I think we adopt something. It doesn't feel lucy to me. It feels once we adopt it it is followed and I but I what I'm hearing you saying and I understand where you're coming I think I understand where you're coming from is that it's it isn't your you don't intend it to be prescriptive. I mean the way that the motion reads is very and that's what worries me. So I'm wondering if we could add to your motion. If we said TSA recommend adoption of three check, check, three checklists as recommendations to guide town council or as recommended questions to ask or something that that indicates the flexibility that you're talking about. I agree and I also think that we have plenty of things to be fair that go very quickly through the council Andy that do not have all of this either for better or for worse I think that it goes both directions. And so I, you know, I think that if we could add something to this, where I, what would get me to comfortable and you don't have to be comfortable, but just for what that's worth is something that is very explicit in the motion that says that this is these are recommended questions to ask, because the way that is that I'm expected to come to the council. I agree with you every cell question and that that's not the spirit and that's not the spirit just I full creativity and flow and ease, but it's more like we like especially for new kinds like for me like not having this is what stopped me from coming forward and I was like, I have no idea even where to begin so but as a sponsor find you okay think through what is the problem you're solving for what are the research that has been done what is you know if I had that sort of things it would have been easier for me to propose something the things that I'm proposing now I would have done earlier. So I think that so but without stifling and and making it seem really burdensome. So I'm open to suggestions you said recommended it to the adoption of three check was that's what I'm so far. The recommendation, the adoption to guide. So it's, it's, we could keep the word adopt in there but instead of saying, and I'm sorry I'm reading and thinking and talking at the same time. Good combination, but I'm thinking about if it said, adopt the three checklists as recommended, right, by, or something like that as as like, recommended, recommended guides or something like that. Let's see to adopt the three checklists as recommended guides for town council and its committees to prioritize initiatives and all. Does that read the same way to other folks if that's if that's how you read this would that make sense is Athena you're going to tell me I can't do what I want to do. Because I think you're recommended here twice to recommend the town council adopt the three checklists as recommended guides guides. Optional guides. If we don't want to use recommended twice. I think what I'm trying to get at is that this isn't a list you have to fill out anytime. Great. But I don't want to make it optional because like, yeah, I know I chose not to like recommend, but it. That's what I'm saying I think it needs to be is I think you either saying everyone needs to do it and this is required or not but I don't think that you can say that you're recommending adoption of this and say it's Lucy goosey and then not say it's optional. I don't see how those things can. I think, I think, okay, but I want to hear Andy first, Andy. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to write a motion in the way that we're writing a motion now. Because what I really looking at and what I was saying before is, is, you know, I was right there's some things that go very quickly. And there's some things that take a lot of time, and we're just trying to parse out what they are before we put a committee in the position of spending hours and hours and hours of time that is not going to get anywhere because of the amount of time and sinker staff that we're really wanting to do is that we recommend to the council that it consider what when referring a proposal for development is by law or policy. The effect that it has on council priorities and resources, resources of town staff and the effect that it has on other boards and committees and that we provide this checklist to assist the council in making those in assessing those. points or something like that. Because it's, you know, the key is so we just want those issues considered we want to put that to a higher level and the checklist is an aid, but it's not a required aid. Thank you, Andy. Thank you now. Thank you, Andy. I, I, when I spoke with Shalini about this it was rare kind of going back and forth about how to make this part of a process without making a part of a required process and it's really tricky. One of the suggestions that I had that I wanted to share was a recommendation to included as part of a rule that the sponsors include some of these things in their memo. And that when sponsors bring something to the council, they address them of those issues, or and slash or that those issues be addressed in a committee report, because it's awkward for every initiative that comes to the council. You know, who's in charge of asking the council to talk about those things at a meeting. And so I was trying to think of a way of kind of threading that needle and and put putting the onus on the sponsors when they propose something. And then there were also some of the things on the checklist, you know, if the sponsors feel that it's appropriate to for a committee to address those issues, then to ask that that be included in the committee report. Yeah, and that's kind of how the checklist were organized, or at least some of the question because a lot of the first checklist is the onus is on the sponsors to bring in as much enough because they'll bring more or less. And it's kind of like just thinking through that, you know, these are the things because I heard for certain things I heard later on, oh, we also did this this and like, oh, you know, I did not even know that. So if the sponsors already bring in that, you know, this is the research that we've looked at this is a problem we're solving for. That way, you know, the town council, so it's giving guidance to the sponsors what they could include in there. And then even if they don't include I think it gives an opportunity if you have the checklist it gives an opportunity to the town council to ask like oh have you looked at what are the best practices and other towns and they made like oh we're going to do that we haven't done that yet and so you know it. So it just gets us all on the same page around what are the things we need to make sure and in some cases, there is a checklist which is how what is the level of engagement we need because for some things. We may not need more than a public comment as as an opportunity for engagement but for some things we will need more engagement so but all that to say yeah Anna go ahead. I don't have anything I'm inhaling trying to figure out what the what the move is. Athena what you what you just said was basically. I understand you're saying adopt this as a recommended checklist for council sponsors to address in memos. And the committees. I was looking at the checklist and then SharePoint the lead person isn't lining up. So I was trying to look at the checklist and see it looks like you have a sponsor identified for some of these. It's just unclear. So the sponsors answer the first five questions in their memo is that what you're suggesting. Yeah. The town council answer six and seven during the meeting and then the town manager. I mean, the town manager isn't really a part of the initiation of a new measure by a counselor or counselors. So I think it's kind of awkward to have the town manager. It's like there are there are these different points in time that this information is needed and clarity about who is providing the information is needed. Okay. So when Sal and I spoke about it, it was like, well, if we want to require that sponsors provide this information, then we can put it into rules. If we want to require that a committee report on these things, then we put it into rules. If we just want to, if the if the committee is saying, let's just recommend the council think about these things when they think about them. That's not a requirement. And then I think it goes along with some of the things that are in the rules like the appendices we have these statement of values and the appendices about this up at the last council retreat. How often do we think about those I and I think I brought up with Lynn once maybe we should just put those up on the screen at the beginning of the council meeting or something. But it's making making this checklist a part of the legislative process. It's just a little bit unclear. And so the way I'm thinking about it is how do we make this part of the formal process. Well, that's what the rules are for. Yeah, that's a similar. You know, you had mentioned the process that I mean, like it can be adopted as a process, like the appointment. What was it? I forget you gave an example. Yeah, there's a policy rule. Right. It's not a rule. It's that the town council has a policy on making recommendations for multiple member bodies. If this is a policy, it would need to be fleshed out more because that policy for making appointments to multiple member bodies is a very clear. These steps have to happen before the step has to happen before you move to this step and so on. So I think this would have to be sort of reorganized in order to be more of a checklist with those things clearly identified and what is a requirement and what is optional and who decides what's a requirement and what's optional and so on. I see. I'm keeping an eye on time, Shalini. So yeah, oh, sorry. Yeah. No, no, no, it's okay. But I think I'm starting to see the pathways here. So yeah, good Dorothy. Dorothy and then yeah, let's hear your pathways. Comparing it to appointments is not meaningful because appointments is a very simple process and other things are not. I can go only so far as to say that a potential sponsor or sponsors of an event be given a copy of the checklist, and that the members of the relevant committee, which is either council committee or the town council itself be given copies to refresh their mind. But beyond that, I do not want to go. I would also add like to what you're saying the recommended because that's kind of what I want and he's just start off and once we use it a couple of times I think you all will be able to refine it further and say oh we wanted to add this or remove this. But I think at this point even just suggesting that the sponsors and then the town council that's a really important one Dorothy because that's where the burnout happens is where we're just letting everything go through. I just asked Paul and I did speak with Paul about it and we did agree that yes there is burnout and staff does feel that there's a lot being put on their plate and there's no process to Dorothy you had asked that question once what is it staff think and but instead of saying what is let's get them very specific questions that, given the projects they're dealing with right now what is the timeline and resources for them to be able to address this. So I think we're starting, Shalini if I might sorry I just I'm going to chair privilege for a second here I think we're starting to repeat ourselves a little bit and so I'd really like to get us to a point of action and I think what Athena just said sounds like it. This is something that I think has actually come up when we've discussed this plan before is which of these fit as rules. And so I think that what what seems like a solid path is to take those first five to write them into a rule propose it to GOL take the second to write it as a rule propose it to GOL saying you know the rule meet would being something like Council sponsors should address the following five items in memos that they present, and then but but GOL would be the group that would pass that rule it wouldn't be TSO. So I think that I would be most comfortable with that plan, I think that the two questions that you have six and seven and your first checklist. We do ask those very consistently is it a priority that's been in the goals and should this be sent I mean should this be sent to committee is literally what we vote on so like that's that always happens but I think that that. I would be more comfortable seeing these written as rules because I do think that that's where it fits it's it's about how the council conducts its business and that's those battle what the rules are. So I think that's what I was, I am not comfortable with its current iteration, feeling like a requirement and and and I don't think that TSO is the group should be writing those rules in that way that in terms of our purview. I would like to say that we'd wrap this up in in the next five minutes or so if that's if that's doable and if not we'll have to move it to the next meeting. Yeah, I was going to suggest that we find a way to move it along and also so we can get on to the rest of the agenda and my suggestion is somewhat similar and that is that we put this off to the next meeting but with the understanding that if you're willing. I'm not trying to put either of you in the spot by saying you have to answer it right now. The challenge and honor to come up with emotion. The next meeting, rather than try and craft it out that moves forward the result that we're looking for and just if we can agree to something like that or you can just say two members of the committee to be designated or whatever you want to do, just so that we can move it along and think we have to be very careful as I think about that as to how we were that because we don't want to make it a subcommittee. Yeah, yeah. You know, maybe she already or on an incontest, you know, and then let that person consult with whoever they think is important to consult but not, not designate as a committee because create something. You know, he's definitely got the got this and I think I, I don't actually know what I would even say as a motion so but thank you, Andy for that Athena. That was a point of clarification to your focus to definitely recommend a rule change as a committee we can do that. Yeah, why not it has to do with it has to do with outreach. I think if you know if the council saw it and committees and outreach. Right, right. So if the if the count if you want to send that recommendation to the council that they adopt a specific rule change then then go ahead and do that and if the council wants to review it and review it and review it before it's adopted or the council can adopt it like that so if the next thing you're going to bring it says suggested rule change then yeah do it that way or it you know it could be more broad but it's really helpful to have something specific for GOL to to use as a jumping off point and and have some justification and explanation for that in the report. That's the way you want to go then go for it. We can discuss this of course we're going to end but just very quickly I'm okay with it being more like a suggested thing that people start using as in council and that and then hopefully in the next council and TSO and GOL, if it's helpful you can make it into a rule, instead of putting it as a rule and then trying because we haven't really tried out I've done bits of it, but I would recommend it as the way we were suggesting making it like a recommendation that council and sponsors and committees utilizes checklist as a way to blah blah blah. motion. Yeah, so I was going to say shawnee it might make more sense. If if TSO is able to suggest a rule change that's great. And it might make sense to do is, it sounds like it was helpful. I'm stuck on how to adopt something as a as just a, if you want to use it use it, but it doesn't sound like that's what you want so I think if you could, if you could come up with a like the wording of that that would be really helpful to bring it back to the next TSO meeting. Great. And bearing in mind that we can suggest a rule change and that also rule change can happen at any point so that that that is something that is movable right it's it is. You can try it that way. It's not, it's not a permanent shift. Right. It's Tina. Did I say it wrong. One more one more quickie. And if you decide to suggest this as a rule change, I know that sounds very hard, like it's a rule and we have to do it this way now. But it's not you can suggest that a sponsor include these things in the memo and if it's not applicable then they say it's not applicable or if it's not needed, then they feel that it's not needed. So I think there is some flexibility there even if you do just have to make it a rule. Okay. Everybody's got their boarders here. All right. Yep. Okay. Thank you, Shawnee. We're going to move on to item seven approval of the minutes. And we had some minutes in our packet did everybody have a chance to read them minutes of 713831 and 420. Is there a motion Dorothy. I know that's not what. Oh yeah, that is this is okay. I just read it the wrong order. 713 Dorothy you're muted. Yep. We need a correction on August 31st. When she is not fluid in Spanish she is fluent. That should be correct. Thank you. Okay. And there's a an object in the wrong case somewhere else but never mind that one is important. Are we comfortable making a motion to approve these minutes with the corrections as Dorothy just stated. All right. No, no. Okay. So I moved to approve the minutes of. Where did I have it? Oh, there you go. April 20, 2023, July 13, 2023, and August 31st 2023 with the single amendment as proposed by Miss Pam on the changing of fluid to fluent. Counselor Pam, not miss. Are you are they like a counselor Pam. Yes. Is there a second. I second it. Thank you counselor Pam. All right. Let's call the vote shall any ball meldon. Yes, Dorothy Pam. Yes. And Andrew Steinberg. Yes. Okay. Thank you minutes are approved Athena. Thank you for getting those to us. Okay, I am going to talk while. Sean, it was that your hands. Yeah, I didn't. I forgot to ask in the end of the week to all of Paul is going to provide us a brief overview of the RFI where we are in the process. What. Paul, would you have any, anything you'd like to just that we have them. There, I think we said we would get them back. They're still being reviewed. Thank you. I think Gilford thought he'd get there by early December. They're because somewhere incomplete, they have to reach out to the, to the companies to try to get to make them complete. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so the draft carryover memo that was in your packet. It is. There's a couple of things in it that we already know are going to need to be adjusted, but did folks. I think Athena, it would be helpful for me if you could give a grounding on the, the goal of. Today, is it really to we're looking at the memo as was presented and deciding if anything needs to be added or removed from it? Is that where you'd like us to go? Yeah, we want to make sure that what's in the memo is what the committee feels should be in the memo and that they're in the right places. The things that the committee is recommending be carried over and not carry over is in the right places that there's enough discussion. I mean, if you remember back to them. TSM memo that Evan wrote for this committee, it was really helpful to have, you know, when we talk about the North pleasant street improvements that committee thinks that you should consider such and such. And that everything is there I sent some suggestions to Anika and then I forwarded them to you Anna and I don't know if you made changes, but I uploaded the version that Anika sent. Thank you. So I can. I'm happy to share my screen if folks would like that be helpful for people as we're looking at this. I don't have the word version though. I think I don't think so. It's the only part that is I'm a bit stymied by in terms of making edits but I can make notes of the edits and go from there if that's the word versions and SharePoint. I'm just looking for the, but I sent. So I get that open from SharePoint. Thank you. Sorry. For some reason I've never gotten routinized into pulling everything from SharePoint so there are a few things that I noticed for into the carryover memo that Anika drafted street lights. The TSO after it comes back from the town manager. The engagement plan if it's not voted. Speed limits there was another part of the speed limit. There was an MGL that the that was still in front of TSO and then the process for safety zones. Another thing that was, I believe in Anika's initial memo was she had included something that we hadn't actually been referred, which was the bus stops. And so that would need a council referral before it and TSO would have needed to have it on our plate before it would be something to carry over. Isn't the bus stop part of the Northwestern street discussion. So this was something different that Anika wanted to wanted to talk about. Let me find the way that she phrased it. If you look at her memo. Too many things open. I just read that recently. Not all bus stops have shelter. Yes, wanted to make sure that they had shelter and benches. And she thought maybe it should be checked to see how that is even in town. Yeah, we need to check with PVTA about that because I'm not sure, but my recollection is that those shelters are actually provided by PVTA. And so that it's not our choice. It's It's a money partner. But she may have been concerned about equity. I think I think there, it's a valid concern, but I think in order for it to be on a carryover memo. We would have needed to have it as something that was referred to TSO to to handle, which it was not it that doesn't mean it can't be in the future but I think that that's why I think that it was. It's probably not going to make sense to keep it on the carryover memo. Does that resonate for folks. And Shalini. Yeah, that was something I had heard also and I'm so sorry, I forgot. You know, the constituents in south and I said talked about bus stops that didn't have shelters and seating. But Athena do we need to have it referred to the DSO con initiated. Don't take a question for the town manager to talk back to you about because the council doesn't really interact with PVT themselves. So it is a PVTA decision, but we can put in requests. So, but the request wouldn't come from council would come from you. Yeah, yeah, but yeah. So, I think that I do think though that it's not appropriate for the carryover memo in that instance, in terms of what the next TSO committee would be handling. So we've got so far the addition of street lights once it comes back from Paul. We have the addition of waste hauler. We have computers in the mode where it flips all the colors and I can't handle that emotionally right now. Okay. And, and then the safety zone determination of the specificities of safety zones to make sure those are in as items that should be carried over Dorothy. Anika got very specific about one particular shelter. And it's one that certainly I have noticed myself CVS pharmacy big why lots and lots of people who depend on public transportation and I stand there in all weather. So if Paul is going to speak with the PVA PVTA or its representatives. I think it would be good to ask questions about that, particularly when I do, I've noticed so many times on both sides of the street seeing people. A lot of very mixed group of people standing there in very bad weather and wondered why there was no shelter. So, if you're going to be talking to them as something that you could bring it up. All right. Okay, so we are going to take that I'll recommend she take that out of the out of the carrier let's start at the top though if we can and just kind of move through in a little bit more of a systematic way so the things. We're starting with items that are automatically carried over as per council rules of rule of procedure. So we have the North Pleasant Street upgrades. This is Andy what you're, I believe referencing North Pleasant Street upgrades in North Amherst. It was sent to us. Well to TSO in 2021. And the council deadline for recommendation has not been set but that is something that the, that that the future TSO would have carried over agreement on that so far. Sorry, I'll not. Are you editing in SharePoint? I added a comment in SharePoint. Do you want me to download it? Sorry. No, it's fine. If you edit there, I'll, I'll redownload that after you might just want to save it as something else so that I know it's in the version or we all know that it's the version that was edited today. Sorry to jump in. Thank you. And then I think an addition to that. The. I think she has at the end due to time constraints and the need for updated information, the committee agreed. This was a matter for attention of the next council. There was also the issue with the zoning applications that were withdrawn. I don't know if you want to include that, but that was the urgency that that came and went. All right. So I'm going to say, oh, let me share my screen so you all can watch me try to type and not spell things wrong. That's fun. Okay. So in addition, the level of urgency regarding this issue shifted as permits for buildings in the area were withdrawn. Okay. So that's the only one that would be automatically pulled over all of the other ones would be. We would recommend that they be carried over. There's nothing that we're currently recommending not be carried over. Is there any, anything that people are in strong disagreement and don't want to be carried over. We like it all. Okay. So then we are thinking about the items that that should be so this is not filled out totally yet but we've got refuse collection recyclable materials. We talked about prepping the packet for that. Which is great. And then the MGL chapter 97 C. So this is the. This is where we, we technically did adopt that. Right. We just need to now establish the requirements for so it's kind of. Sorry, pardon my interruption again. It's the council adopted 18 be not 17 C 17 C allows the council to establish a speed limit of 25 miles per hour and a thickly settled business or business district. So it's a little bit different. And is that the additional speed limit item that you were talking about in your. Yeah. Yeah. And then there was. Sorry. So at the, at the council meeting on Monday and, and during the conversation this evening, the committee talked about establishing a process to review those requests. That was sort of. So I recommended that Anika include something in or that the committee includes something about that as well that the council adopted the MGL 18 be, but there's more work needed on how to handle requests for. Implementation of safety zones. And then the committee didn't make a recommendation on 17 C. That's two words. Okay. All right, great. Thank you. What else? What did we just say was missing? We had. Just in writing street lights here and I will flush it out in a bit. Okay. So that's not what our carryover memo will say. I'm just not going to make you watch me type that out perfectly. Is there anything else? Oh, engagement proposal. Sorry. Shalini, are you able to develop some language around the community engagement proposal? Which hopefully we can adopt before now. Yeah, hopefully I think I want to have it written out just in case we don't have to do. Okay. Yeah, for sure. Okay. You got place taller. Waste taller was first on here. Yep. Yep. Is that. I'm not here. Burning edition. Oh, sorry. Yeah, it's really helpful to have this draft and then, and then have the committee give the committee another opportunity to look at a more final version at the next meeting and then. We can give a last pass on December 7 before it goes to the council so that any. Anything that's voted or carried over can be included in the memo at that last meeting. Okay. So I will, I'm going to take a stab at adding those, those items that we just had in there using the format that we've had before and I'll work with Anika on ensuring that we've got the discussion captured. And if, and then we'll get it out to the committee if folks remember something that they, that somehow we have forgotten from this list. I recommend you, you email that to Anika. And, and she can work with it there. Otherwise I think that that is shaping up. It's a lot shorter than Evans. Just suspicious to me. And then we put in the waste. Pages, so I was reading it earlier to try to, anyway, all right, I digress. If you continue working on this, if you would please download, and then we're going to draft and we'll upload it for the next committee meeting. I will thank you for that. Thank you. Okay. I do not have any announcements anyone have any announcements for the good of the council for the good of the committee. I think it's south Asian festival of lights this Sunday to do for 30, please come. It's gonna be really fun. A lot of fun activities and food and Bollywood dancing moves. Where is that date and time and where clock a farm from to do for 30. Perfect. Thank you. Any other announcements. All right, upcoming agenda items. This is winding up y'all. So we've got to finalize this carryover meant memo. Carryover memo, and we'll revisit the community engagement work from Shalini get continued updates on waste hauler. And hear back from tack regarding the traffic calming. Other than that, I, there's nothing on it or not reasonably anticipated within 48 hours of the meeting. So I think we are, unless anyone else has anything to add to the good of the order. I think we're ready to adjourn at 855. Thank you all. Have a good night. Thank you. Good night. Thank you. Good night.