 I'm saying hello to everybody. I see Russia, Argentina, Buenos Aires. I see Bhutan, Lesotho, South Africa, Brazil. This is really great and I'm very happy that we have so many people from all over the world here again to our second payments dialogue. So what we were trying to prepare for you today was a really dialogue, a real dialogue. So I'm telling you a little bit about what we are doing and then we will start. So what we want to do today is to look at payments from the consumer's perspective. And when I say we, it's not only me, it's Sergei Dukhalski from the UPU post transfer group and it's me. Sergei is just trying to get online. He had some technical problems. We tried it several times over the last days. It always worked but today he had a problem. What he is doing actually at the moment so that you get a feeling for that, Sergei is actually running from room A to room B and he is trying to work out the technical problems. I hope that he is coming online in the next seconds and then this will be a real dialogue. I'm quite sure that we will solve this problem until he is able to come online in the next seconds. So what we want to do is we want to look at how consumers, we all are consumers as well, at how consumers on the worldwide basis feel about payments, what is changing in the payments market and we want to really make this a real, real dialogue. What do I mean with a real dialogue? We want to have you integrated in this talk and we would like to get you really in here. So I will start now with a little bit of background and then we have 12 trends in payments and we would like to see that you can discuss with us these trends and looking forward to how we can do this. So let's start. Evolution and revolution. What we all every day see is that our world is changing quite fast. So we see the world is getting more digital, we see more and more virtual events, especially of course in the last year everything was getting more virtual every day because of this COVID-19 situation. The world is getting faster, we are all more connected. Just here at this meeting we are now where we have people from all over the world attending and we are seeing, oops, sorry for that glitch, we are seeing that this is more and more digital connected. Sometimes it's a little bit scary as well. So we have to find out how to do this world and it is of course much more global and on the other side more comfortable and a lot of things we had to pay for in the past. We don't have to pay for any more today. So it's getting more and more digital. On the other side, if we look at how we pay, we see that this is not at least not changing as fast as it was in the past. So very often it is still physical. So we are paying with coins and paying with notes. It's not really fast. Sometimes it's not really safe. We have the feeling that the payments are still very national and sometimes hard to send money overseas. What we are seeing as well is that the payments especially if we are sending them overseas are very slow and expensive of course and all of this is often very complicated. So why is that? Is it really that? Yes, what we see as well is this is changing. We are getting more online payments at the moment. So it's really changing to online. Of course we're getting more mobile payments which is changing and then there are coming a lot of new things like for example bitcoins which weren't there five years ago and suddenly everybody is talking about bitcoins. So it's really the question of how this world is developing and where we are going to. And of course this changed over the last 12 months even faster and it will change in the near future as well very fast. So if you look at for example this trend sorry why is it here? Sergei is coming online. Give him a second he will be here in a moment. Sergei it's great that you're here. I'm very happy to see you and I can hear you as well. Yes hello everybody I really do apologize as Martin said. I was running here and there but that was literally not from one room to another but from one building to another building. So we will go on. I just started with the presentation Sergei and we are the next nearly next thing are the 12 trends so you are just on time as it should be. So I just were here and telling that especially the cash payments and the digital mobile wallet payments are changing very very fast over the next years. So the prediction is that cash is nearly half its size so it's going down from more than 20 percent to a little bit more than 12 percent over the next four years and at the same time all the stuff which was cash in the past is going into the direction of digital and mobile wallets. So this seems to be a very very fast change in the way we are paying things. Imagine we paid for with coins now for 4500 years. We paid with bank notes for hundreds of years and now suddenly within the last some years and the next some years all this stuff is changing on a really really fast speed and this makes the world of payments so interesting. Of course part of this or part of this is COVID-19 and the situation you are seeing here you saw here which is a Chinese market probably you won't see this one in the next future anymore because what you will see is that people are buying things on this market but what you probably will not be seeing in the future is that the people are paying with cash on these markets even there people will buy and sell and pay with mobile phones even on markets like these. I was in in China about 30 months ago and even the beggars on the street they had small QR codes where you could pay them with your mobile phone and if we then look into COVID-19 and how this develops look at these charts. These two charts show the 10 years development of retail of e-commerce retail in the US on the left and e-commerce retail in the UK on the right and what you are seeing is that the percentage of e-commerce went from 5.6 to 60 percent or 6.7 to 20 percent over 10 years and then suddenly within 8 to 12 weeks these numbers went up to 27 and respectively 33 percent so very very fast we had a change in the way people were using money and were were using the internet to sell and buy things and where we are here we are to buy and sell things and of course to pay differently so what certainly and I we prepared over the last weeks and months even we prepared and talked and discussed 12 trends and payments and what we would like to do with all of you now is to really looking into these payment trends but we would like to do this in dialogue so I started with some background but now we want to go in a dialogue. Dialogue means personally two persons so it would be Sergey and me but with all of you it would be probably even more a trial look so we would like you to really go into this and ask your questions or give your comments or show us your examples from your countries as we cannot put everybody on speaker and video just put something in your comments I always have a view on the comments and can always give you the word and it would be great to see you integrated in this discussion over the next half hour of course we can answer questions but if you have a different opinion if you see a trend differently than us please integrate yourself into this discussion and into this dialogue so Sergey are you ready then we should start yeah let's start I was late. Let's start with trend number one trend number one I think we both see and we probably don't have that big difference here is that the way payment goes is to be a cashless world so there won't be any more physical assets like coins notes money is getting virtual we see this in the real world examples outside of payment for example with virtual reality augmented reality and we see this in payments which are getting more and more payments are getting cashless cashless the first countries like Denmark Sweden Norway are expected to be nearly cashless within the next five years so I was in Sweden about one and a half year ago I was there for two or three days I didn't even change money at the airport I've spent everything I spent there in Sweden I spent online mostly with Apple Pay sometimes with a credit card but no cash anymore we see it in the cash I just showed you the the cash at the payments in covered 19 phases worldwide we see that the cash at the p.o.s at the point of sale in stores went down from 32% to 24 20.5% within one year over the last 12 months and I we found for example and and market research from India where people over the age of 56 told that they use the payments online payments more often after covered 19 than before so what we really see here is big change in consumer behavior to a cashless world what do you think Sergey right or do we have a disagreement here well I can't disagree here with you Martin because I would even state that it's not the trend it's already the reality and what I can say is that the only limitation for now for people is that they need to have an account so either a banking account or a mobile whatever account and that leads to some issues with know your customer and AML of course yeah and even today well with the mobile penetration you have phone well almost everybody has a phone and it seems to be quite easy to ever evolve it but still there are some financially excluded people and they are not able to to use the cashless cashless society what what I wanted to say and you mentioned it in your introduction actually is that what can be the trends that's the emerging of the cryptocurrencies everybody is talking about them probably some of you who are attending the webinar already bought some but there is still an absence of the national or what is even more important international regulations on that and until we have it in place and of course until we have a central clearing house to monitor those cross-border currency flows that will be still a challenge to have non-convertible ones I agree with that one coming back to our second trend which is instantly so money payments are getting well not only faster but they are getting instantly so when I was young and we had to send money I had to with the bank account I had to work to the bank I had to fill out with a pen my my my transfer they had to scan it or to to type it into their systems then they made the transfer and then somebody else could go to this bank and to find out whether he has the money on the account and often this took a week so nowadays we are down to let's say a day normally within Europe or within other countries maybe two days sometimes internationally a bit a bit longer national even faster but what we think Sergey and me is that this is going to get even faster in the next time so we are getting down to hours minutes or even instantly seconds you will need to to make a pen transfer payment which changes of course our world as a consumer very very much yeah absolutely true Martin just to add on top of what you said I would say that technology wise it's pretty easy it's already here so you can do the transfer in a second but the hindering part again as I mentioned before are compliance rules you have to do the ML and CFT checks for all digital transaction and well that's normal in our world so how do you see it with post transfers this one we got it got faster as well yes absolutely so UPU itself responded to that trend previously we had the outgoing EDI technology and money transfers were sent within three days now with the new post transfer and UPU IP platform everything is done in seconds well there is of course some literacy of like latency of two hours but that's mainly due to the capacity of DOs to connect to the system and pick up pick up the money order so you're going to solve the technical issue within two hours well it's even less again technically wise it's done within seconds or minute maximum it's more what kind of connection DOs have to grab the payments through the centralized system so this is a big change in the speed of the payments the next one I think this one is a very interesting one and it's probably for the established players the hardest change one of the hardest changes we see we see it in every real world examples as well so if you look at for example postal mail so you got substituted by a lot of like at least partly substituted by email you paid quite some money for a postal mail you are paying nearly nothing for an email so the the marginal cost of an email is zero and but Sergei and I are found as one of the big trends in payments is that we are seeing a similar trend in payments so for example if you look in the past the payment transfer with a credit card this one cost about for a hundred dollar credit card payment it costs about two euro a two dollar seventy so about two two point seven percent but if you do the same now in China for example with Ali pay or we with WeChat you are paying not two dollars seventy but zero dollar seventy so it's getting much much cheaper and as well especially if you do this and as a person as a consumer you sometimes even can send money for free so if I send some some hundred euro to Sergei via PayPal and they say it's a transfer to a friend I do not pay one cent of cost so the amount of money you have to pay for payments it's getting smaller right Sergei absolutely but you will still have some marginal costs and well you for example you have the revolute model they actually don't charge you that much for each transaction but they have some kind of a monthly fee which you have to pay or limitations in the number of transactions which you can do through the months so even if the payment is somehow getting cheaper and cheaper but you have to pay something in addition either for receiving a card or for just having the possibility to do the transfers and what I wanted to say you you put an example of email of course email itself is for free well you you don't need to pay as long as you as you have connection and electricity but sometimes you need to have this email physical so and then the cost comes like paper printing ink and stuff like this it's also marginal but it's the cost and here I make an action to the cryptocurrencies and the payments which are done in cryptocurrencies everybody thinks that it's also almost for free as well you you don't have a real real real cost you just transmit some virtual currencies but it's good until it's in the crypto environment but when you want to cash out when you want to get a fiat money instead of crypto you have to pay quite a lot of costs yes absolutely agree and I think there's another similarity if you look for it from a not from a consumer's perspective from a but from a company's perspective even sending emails is not free so if you're sent out 10,000 or 100,000 emails from a company you still have to pay a little bit for that to send it out to to make it happen and to have your provider organizing all that stuff so it's not free but it's of course much cheaper than sending out emails and I think this is another similarity that companies might still have to pay for payments a little bit at least but for consumers the feeling getting is getting more and more that from a consumer's perspective payments are getting free or nearly free in the future or are already there that's interesting I just saw a message from Rodrigo from from let's see Brazil and he said it picks is started to work in Brazil and is instantly between any bank account and any day of the week so pick seems to be a free and instantly service between the banks in Brazil so yes so thanks to Rodrigo for that message it's getting worldwide this instantly and free payments so one other thing I think which is really interesting is it's getting easy easier much yeah we get sorry for that it's free sustainable David from UPU is asking is free sustainable banks are impacted by the drop of interest rates if payments become free how will they transform their business model in addition in Europe the idea of taxing financial tax actions is making its way I think Daniel that's a very very important question about how can can companies still live if or banks can still live or payment companies can still live if if the payment itself is free so okay what are your ideas on your thoughts on this comment from David I don't have the direct answer of course and I don't know what banks are thinking about but one of the models can be the data sharing when the banks themselves or the companies providing the payments they will agree with their customers that they will share their data for any kind of marketing purposes and that they will offer in addition other services to these customers so the data sharing that can be one of the ways out I think this is interesting I see for example telecom providers doing the same thing they don't make much money anymore with a with a mobile service as well itself but for example they start to sell the data from the mobile users how they walk around or drive around so that other companies can start to make a usage of this usage data and to see for example where a traffic jam is building up or something like that so I think this is this is a good example it's another one I think especially to do with data as well if we are looking for freeze that companies might try to sell extra services to their their to their customers so the payment itself might be free but only a number of payments a month or only up to a certain amount or only up to a certain speed and the moment you want to have a special speed or a special payment or a special security for example then you might have to pay a little bit more or even pay a little bit or even a little bit more because of this service I think this might be another way of still earning money but I think this is a good point David made there we will coming to the point competition a little bit later on because that is one of our trends we are seeing as well and we might talk to that one as well. Igor from Russia is questioning Sergey when the UPU is going to create their own payment system that's a question especially for you well but that's already a reality UPU has its own system for for payments we provided it on the brand post transfer and that's already in place for more than 20 years and Russian post is part of it that's a good use Igor you should try to talk with Sergey about it but if you don't know it you might be able to use it from now on that's great the next one is easy and I think that is one is interesting as well because from a consumer perspective payment is always a little bit complicated if I go into a supermarket and in front of me is a queue with people I always have the one in front of me who is trying to pay with cent coins or something like that and is collecting the money for I feel half an hour to make a payment so I if I go there I just go there with my mobile phone and how to in front of the RFID thing and then it's about well I would say my payment doesn't take longer than 10 seconds probably even with putting in my pin code so it's much more easy for me as a consumer to do a one-click purchase like it's done with amazon or like a RFID thing I think this one is going to be much more easier in the future I think Sergey when we talked about you talked about QR codes as an example for that yeah well and you mentioned already QR codes used by beggars that's the easiness of the payment solution I just wanted to make a comparison which has kind of a side effect well in the past and well some people even now when they were carrying cash they were able to spend only what they had in their pocket or what they have in their pocket right now well when you use digital well credit cards or any other means at the end you spend as much as you want and you are just limited to the limit on your credit card so you don't really feel and see what you are spending and that's a kind of a side effect of all this but of course well the easier the payment is the better that there will always be some kind of a security issues but we'll come I think to this a bit later but security is one of our other trends there's interesting comments there's one comment from the Iraq we need UPU support Iraqi post and payment systems so Sergey I think that's one you can do after this talk you can call them and try to help them I think that might be interesting the other one is coming from Evo which is interesting how post transfer could connect post logistics and modern payment technologies I think that one is interesting because well that's what posts are connecting can you connect logistics with payment systems there some way in there well it depends what eager means but you already as in place the cash on delivery service and that's integrated into post transfer so once you receive a parcel you can pay for that e-commerce item and that's already there so that's interesting yeah if you're is talking about any kind of taxes to be paid to the customs and other providers that still has to be developed yeah but I think this integration with the parcels is quite interesting maybe it's the other way around as well so nowadays I go to a post office to pay for post transfer to send money maybe I can do it with the with the with the person coming to my home as well so there might be other possibilities in the future to integrate these services interesting thought which comes to our next one our trend number five automated which is going into into something which is interesting I think I think from a payments perspective at the moment most of our payments are done manually I read about the US where they sent out these checks for COVID-19 relief and these were checks they sent out with postal and they sent them to the persons and they had to go with a check to their bank and to cash that check I think there might be in the future different systems which are a little bit more automated than this so if you look for for other examples like uber or amazon go or so where you shop without any problems go through a cashier in this moment you're going out of the store you already paid this is much more automated and I think you have some ideas about that from a from UPU's perspective as well don't you Sargey? not really from the UPU perspective but as you said quite a lot of automated payments are already available so well we use them monthly that's all the subscriptions for the mobile applications whatever you use if you use any kind of fitness app for which you have to page months well the money are deducted automatically well Netflix subscription or any kind of regular charity payments which you are subscribed for also Martin we discussed with you that there are quite a lot of transport applications for example Swiss SBB they already have a feature in their app which automatically deducts the amount whenever you hop on hop off the train so you don't even need to buy a ticket everything is done automatically according to your route so I just have my smartphone with me hop on the train and go off somewhere else and the train detects me and then he knows where he hopped on hopped off and so he knows okay I have to buy what is it Swiss francs five Swiss francs or 10 Swiss francs or something like that I think this is a very interesting thing because I saw that in London for example with the London tube if you go on there and you go on there once and you pay whatever two euros or something like that or two pounds probably in London and then you use the tube on the same day the next time and you pay another two pounds and when you do it the third time the system automatically detects that you are using the cube for the third time and that it's cheaper for you to pay for a day pass instead of single fares and then the system tells me okay do you just have to pay one more pound and then you have a day pass and you can hop on and hop off as you want and I really like this system because normally as a consumer you always have to decide in the morning will I do two or three or four fair times in the tube and then you have to decide whether to use a day pass or not with this system it's really comfortable and very easy to have this automated I think there's a lot of stuff in there for payments in the future yeah and I think Martin you already introduced the new the next trend which is intelligent because that's exactly what it stays for yeah I think this is very interesting that that payment's going to be intelligent in the future we will have a lot of more more predictive banking we will have fraud detection with intelligent systems artificial intelligence chatbots so I could say Alexa please do something please pay Sergei five euros and then he gets the money instantly so I think this will be the ball we are going into the future so the grant mark can send the money to their grandchildren via systems like Alexa or something else so I think there's really something in intelligent systems here yeah absolutely and your behavior your daily behavior as you mentioned with the London tube will be used to propose or to ease up somehow the gathering information for your payments either it's a train ticket or well the route proposed or any kind of free current payments if you are used to pay your utility bills every month on last Thursday of the month so then the system can like two days before send you a push notification that the payment is due in two days and either either you confirm it or just cancel so that would be interesting yeah yeah and very comfortable again so these trends are a little bit connected as well yeah I think that's interesting then we have the next trend which is borderless and I think we already got some questions on that one so for example on how to enforce the government to start the payments or to how to do that how governments are going about regulating financial institutions and cryptocurrencies so we already got some questions for that and I think they are not not right and not wrong I think there will be some more regulation maybe in the future but on the other side I think it's much easier to send money internationally than it was in any time in the human history so when I wanted to send money from Greece to Rome 2000 years ago it was quite quite complicated nowadays it's gotten much easier than it was in the past maybe it's not borderless yet but I think we are on the way to yes I have the feeling in the future it might not even be any more questions whether I pay from Moscow or from from Rome or from New York and my money will just go where it needs to be don't you think so Sergei yeah and again when you travel when you pay for for your hotel or you pay for your utility bills like I am doing being here in Switzerland but paying my utility bills still in Moscow I can do it from here without any borders that's interesting yeah I have the same feeling I just did a transaction a year ago I was I don't know I think I was in Singapore or Thailand I was in Bangkok actually and I had to pay something I just could do it on my smartphone without a problem but actually I used the German system to send the money in German so I just I wasn't in Thailand but I just used the German system I think what is still has some way to go are real international payments so when I had to pay for example for the for the student fees for my my sons in Canada that was quite costly I think I paid about 200 euro 250 euros to to send the money to Canada that was quite costly so it wasn't free it was I was able to do it and it was fast but it wasn't yet free so I think on the on the payment side or on the on the on the cost side borderless is still quite expensive if you compare to national payments yeah of course well the international payments are much more expensive than the domestic ones that's do you think that's that this will change will international payments getting cheaper as well over time yes and a good example for that is somehow the european regulations on the freedom of move of goods and people so that's where the whole world is going to yeah absolutely coming to trend number oh sorry yes eight which is secure we think that the the the current experience is that a lot of people are afraid of losing money I know if I go to a foreign city I always get I try to get whether I have my money still with me I'm always a little bit unhappy to have the money with me so what we saw for example in Sweden Sweden is was in 1661 the first country with banknotes and now it seems to be to get the first country without bank robberies because due to having no cash anymore in Sweden the the amount of bank robberies went down from 110 in 2009 to 11 in 2017 and probably zero in 2025 so it seems to be that money gets more secure on the other side we are seeing this cyber crime trends so Sergei is money is cash more secure or is cyber money more secure what do you think I would say that security is always an issue regardless of the way of of payment or storing the money so for example there was last year and I think it continued this year there was a wave of banking safe deposit boxes robberies in Russia so just the deposit boxes were robbed in the banks but on the other end according to the seifer trace cryptocurrency crime and anti-money laundering reports it was revealed that last year frauds and thefts totaled almost two billion two billion yeah two billion USD's that's quite a amount of money yeah and what I think is actually that society itself we all are more familiar with the physical robberies and we are not yet ready to provide really a response to digital digital wines and they are not as visible probably if a bank robber goes into a bank and robsons it's very visible and it will be in the news if somebody has some cyber crime it normally doesn't make the news at least mostly if it's not a very big case so it's probably more under the water surface yeah and one of the answers to this can be a digital identity yeah for prevention of the crimes because once you edit all the transactions are done under your digital ID but for that there should be really developed an international legislation because now there is nothing in place some countries are working towards that direction but all efforts should be put together to develop really comprehensive international one I think this is a good point and this point brings us to the next trend we are seeing which is money transfers getting more transparent transparent and I think when we discussed that in the beginning we talked that this is a little bit a double sided or double folded sword because on one side of course it's very great to have good transparency in this and I know where I spent my money for example I if I if I use my smartphone and Apple Pay I always have the list of the last transfers I made so it's very easy and very transparent on the other side if I do some well some not so special activities I don't want anybody to know about I don't talk about going to sex shops of course but let's talk about I'm buying the present for my wife and she shouldn't know about what I'm buying here the transparency is not as good and I know for example that in Germany the purchase of gold is now you're not able to purchase gold anymore if you don't ID yourself above a certain amount so there is getting more and more transparency into these payments and if you if we go into the direction you just said that we do the payments with our IDs then every single cent we have or get and spend will be connected to our IDs and this will be a very transparent system voted yeah well it would for sure but as you said it's double folded who wants to have this transparency either it's a regulator and of course they will go for a total transparency of which in every transaction due to any kind of taxation issues or CFT ones while you as a customer as you rightly pointed out probably do not need that kind of transparency so again who will win this fight so you think that the states the nations the tax the tax tax get us are more interested in this transparency than the consumers probably I think so because look we had offshores in the past so people were trying to hide somehow money over there now we are going towards DLTs and cryptocurrencies which people also think to be more secure and more private but each and every time governments come with additional and new regulations to make it more transparent and more according to the laws which is of course is the right thing to do we got an interesting question from Rodrigo he said who do you think has to be responsible for the client money the digital robbery the bank of the client good question well looking at the current situation bank is always putting the responsibility towards the customer of course they can cooperate and help somehow but usually if you made it well if somebody has stolen your credit card and paid with it in a shop at least the case is I know that usually it's your responsibility especially if you report late yeah I think there are normally waters like 100 euro or 150 euro to it so the first 150 euro cut and spent you're responsible for and everything about the the company is responsible for some great that which isn't interesting as well so some kind of shared responsibility and I think in the end it's like that it's the shared responsibility so the bank of course has some some responsibility to the customers on the other side of course the customers have some responsibility themselves not to share their pins or doing things like that to make it very easy for robbers yeah our next trend coming to well we have to come to the end is trend number 10 which is competitive I think we already touched that one a little bit earlier when we talked about new companies coming into the market when we talked about free payments and we are seeing suddenly companies like Apple like Alibaba like WeChat Tencent coming into the payment marketing where they have never been they these are not banks but now they are suddenly in the payment market and they they don't earn their money with with bank transfers with payments they are earning their money with selling goods or selling computers or doing things like that so they don't have the real the real need to earn money with payments so suddenly they make the payments free so do you think that the the money payment market will gets more competitive in the next years that there will be new players coming along sorry yes I think well the new place will come for sure it won't be more and more competitive of course even if competitive enough already now and everything what we have now is due to the digitization itself and the emerging of fintech companies because when they came to the market and they offered their their solutions well that they lower down the prices transactions they come up with new ideas new developments and everything they did well actually it's all interconnected well it's the easiness of the payment it's automation of the payment it's intelligence of the payment and so I can just repeat and repeat all the strengths and all this is part of the competitive of the market and there will always be new players having some more comfort having a faster having a cheaper whatsoever so this will make yes I agree with you it will be more and more competitive the next one is connected I think this is very interesting more not not so much from the consumer's point of view but the background as the the postal view the the e-commerce view that all these payment systems will be connected to stores I think the future will be that these payment systems will be even connected to things so the moment whatever your laser printer is needing new new toner new new ink that he himself can buy this ink because you gave him some money for his yearly ink allowance or something like that so he needs he is connected to the payment system and he automatically not only buys the ink but pays for the ink so I think that there will be a lot of more connections interfaces ap's application programming interfaces the background which makes in there from the front and view from the consumer point of view makes it much easier to use the systems and again we are in trains like comfortable and and so on yeah absolutely Martin and you be you of course is eager and able to play a role of such kind of a hub for various payment system so that to connect the whole world and to provide fast and secure service and it can be done both for remittances themselves as the commandate of the UPU and of course for e-commerce payments as it was asked in the chart yeah but it's also it's also interesting somehow Martin to look from the consumer's customer and consumer perspective because I don't think that technology is really a barrier here for for the connection and interconnection it's more about the legal barriers and somehow the demand for accessible and democratic devices so that you can exit you can have access to financial services and accounts itself and that's again where the role of the UPU is really crucial and where we have to be engaged either through the financial inclusion projects which we are delivering in the countries and by providing the financial education to people yeah either by leveraging the deposit transfer payments experience which we have now or through the access to the technology that's our key role here I totally agree with you with which brings us to our last trend number 12 inclusion and I just saw a comment from Kenneth or question he is saying in developing countries access access and ownership of a bank account is very low conversion to digital money and then payments to selected vendors is the workaround any initiatives through UPU to reach this group and I think then we are actually directly at inclusive something which is I think very important for UPU to include more and more participants in the market consumers into the payment systems like MPSR is done in eastern Africa for example with their accounts what are you planning actually at the moment at UPU to be more inclusive how these countries are you working with your post transfer system now well post transfer is mainly for payments for remittances Martin we have like 76 countries but I think what is asked for what actually UPU is doing to help with the financial inclusion issue and here we're working together with our donors namely visa and billion million the gates foundation and they sponsor quite a number of projects in various countries to help those and banked and people without access to financial services through the post going into digitalization of these services and providing them access to that's great that's a good example thanks a lot Sergei so we came to a little bit of the end just as a summary these were our 12 trends the two of us are seeing and thanks not only to you Sergei but thanks a lot to all the others who asked started to ask questions there are still coming more questions so I think we will be online so I get to answer some more but before that I would like to thank you to everybody that you paid attention that you were attending this event and sorry once again for that we start a little bit late for a German like me this is a horrible thing to start five minutes late I hope you will excuse this and I promise that next time we do a session like this we will be on time again and but there are coming questions so for example we have here my group Annette is asking how to develop an international regulatory framework in the near future so going to what you just said Sergei that the regulations sometimes the barrier we have to tackle yes but that again depends what kind of regulations is mentioned here because UPU's main mandate so far is only for postal payment services meaning the let's call them remittances from post to post and the rest is either to central banks or the World Bank itself what we have to think about is how UPU can be involved in the development of payments and financial services at the whole in the future and whether there is interest of the postal stakeholders both regulatory authorities and post themselves in having their same in that domain that's what we have to answer to ourselves interesting very interesting point wonderful I see that some of you are typing so I would say officially Sergei shall we close it and say thank you for everybody and beside of that I think we can still stay online for some some minutes if anybody has a question he wants to ask or wants to get in contact so some of you have special questions and Sergei I'm quite sure that you are always open for an email and answer that I just saw that Rodigar has already said he wants to say you send an email I think that's great so thank you to everybody a special thanks Sergei to you for doing a dialogue with me I hope you in the audience you like this kind of dialogue and yes Sergei let's just put in your email address so everybody can find you great so I hope that everybody liked your dialogue liked the way we were not just doing a presentation but doing a little bit of discussion around it and we wish you a very happy day or well depending on where you are evening morning afternoon whatsoever and having a great time and Sergei I think we will be back with the next payment dialogue in one or two months and we're looking for a good good interesting topic but I'm quite sure that you will find one we maybe use one of the 12 ones and just make a whole session on free or whole session on secure I think there's a lot of stuff in that so thanks everyone all over the world and goodbye from Sergei and me yeah goodbye everybody bye bye