 Hey everybody, we're just getting set up here. We had a little bit of a time confusion there going on So we're going to get our screen set up and we're gonna get everybody going here on our debate tonight on the war in Ukraine So stay tuned everybody. We'll be right back with Jeff. All right. We're just getting set up here All right Everyone we're just waiting for For Drew. He's just trying to get a little live share going here and then we're gonna get going Excellent. We're just waiting here And once we're ready to get going we will so everybody thanks for coming on out tonight We're going to be debating is Russia's war in Ukraine justified We're going to get going with that in just one minute here. We're just waiting for Drew to get his System set up here I got a ring coming in from James here. Um, oh, I just missed it. I'm sorry James I'm sorry about that, buddy So, yeah, we'll uh, we'll keep this up here for now uh, I I know is on the discord there earlier and uh Somebody wasn't too pleased about the fact that I was saying kick it over often so I'm gonna try to uh say that as much as possible this debate in honor of that Lovely critique Drew I don't uh, sorry, sorry not drew. He's you got him up on your screen there Jackson Are you trying to say something or are you talking to your? Okay, and uh Jackson just make sure we can hear you Okay, and uh, drew. Are you ready? Well, let's let's just give everybody a second here because you know how technology can be, you know and be a lot of fun Well, we're getting spicy right off the bat everybody Awesome. Uh, drew. Are you able to get your camera on and uh get connected? Well, we'll just give him a moment here We'll we'll we'll reintroduce the debate here once we get going here and this will get clipped for the live, but uh I'm gonna do a lot of kicking it over to you Uh, they're Jackson. They're kicking it over to you, Drew. Just uh for the sake of our lovely our lovely, uh criticism that I got there in my discord earlier Hey everybody, if you want to let me know in the live chat you you can hear Jackson, correct? When he's speaking you can hear him, right? Here Jackson, can you speak a little bit? That's one two three four. I think that's working. All right, everybody. Uh, once again, so sorry We're just waiting for drew and then we're gonna get going with what uh, what our topic is tonight Which is is russia's war on ukraine justified? So I see your super chats coming in there Uh, yeah, definitely, uh, you know, we're gonna be doing a q&a at the end of this Just make sure that your super chats are Related to our topic and not attacked against our speakers. That would be great. Uh, I know, uh Jackson's got his own live stream going on there. So if you see him talking, uh, It's probably because he's talking to his own viewership right now Uh, so I don't have him on mute I'm back. All right Just from his dreams back All right, finally and it looks like drew is here as well So, uh, I'm gonna go over to my own window right quick and I'm gonna introduce our topic and then we will get going. All right This is gonna cut off my live thing here. So it doesn't look like I am James I mean, I could be but you never know Hey everybody tonight, we're gonna be debating is russia's war on ukraine justified and we're gonna start right now And to get us started we have two speakers here tonight and uh, Jackson from what I understand You're gonna kick us off with the affirmative. So, uh, Jackson, we are going to kick it over to you To start us off. Thanks so much for being here everybody and uh, let's go, uh, let's take it away. Thanks, Jackson Yes, I put out the offer to any and all, uh individuals to come to a debate and try to conquer the argument that Russia is, uh, they're very based Putin is, uh, His, uh, smo while It's unfortunate. It is justified And, um, I'd have to say that, you know, this argument has been deliberated many many times and, uh, that's why drew in his last debate with my friend haas of the infrared show He kept trying to like Take the conversation away from this century, but, um, anyways I I think that it's quite clear. I mean, uh, Putin throughout his time in office even right back to when he first took power He made efforts to try and work with the west rather than against it. He didn't come off, um, you know, within his first days of his Of his presidency having an adversarial mind to the us. He tried to join nato. He tried to join the eu And then, you know, after there was several coup attempts in ukraine 2004 2014 that were backed by the west In an effort to draw russia into a civil war in the Donbas, uh, which we're now effectively seeing Um, Putin tried to establish peace because those who are rising up in the Donbas the civilians there in the Donbas They tried to say, you know, we don't we don't respect. We don't recognize this, uh, government that was installed in a us back coup in 2014 and, uh, because they said they didn't recognize it and because they were trying to achieve autonomy Uh, the Kiev authorities that were then heavily, you know, comprised of nazi and nationalist figures now not as much but from 2014 to 2019 definitely were so Uh, they started to wage a campaign of violence In asymmetrical warfare against those individuals that were fighting for their freedom in the Donbas Uh, Putin tried to stop all of the warfare through the Minsk accords the minx two accords to no avail And the lead up to the russian smo. We saw a dramatic increase of shelling osce independent international monitors Recognized that there was a sharp increase in shelling against the russian aligned Donbas separatists And directly when that was taking place in the final days prior to february 24th from february 16th to february 24th and then Putin launched the smo. He's done a great job of trying to limit civilian casualties while still achieving the goals of demilitarization and denotification And it appears as though my stream may have disconnected Let me just see here if it's still good I think we might still be good. Okay. I'm going to continue Um, and and uh, last thing I'll say here Last thing I'll say here is uh Maybe it did get us No, we're still alive. Okay. Last thing I'll say here, um On many occasions, Putin has tried to establish peace With ukrain through the israeli negotiations the turkish negotiations the chinese peace proposal All of which has been denied and rejected by the key of authorities Some of which was denied after trying to make some actual Solid ground on those peace proposals and negotiations the israeli and turkish negotiations came close to actually ending all this madness But the uk stepped in and said no to zelinski. He's not allowed to negotiate And um, that's where we find ourselves now Putin is uh still saying that you know if you come to the table with something other than forcing all of our troops out of the Donbass and taking Crimea and deposing myself Vladimir Putin Then we might be able to get somewhere but zelinski refuses at every step. So the war continues Great, if that's everything from you there jackson We're going to let drew have his opening statement there In accordance to that I just want to remind everybody in the live chat that both of our speakers are going to be linked In our description below. So if you like what you're hearing from drew or jackson tonight Make sure to check them out and without further ado over to you drew I mean listen what we're hearing from jackson is straight projection the russian propagandists like to accuse The victims of their aggression of the very crimes that they are guilty themselves of committing so Russia invades ukraine in an attempt to depose the government Force a regime on the ukrainian people they invaded with kill lists in all the areas that they occupied They killed civilian leaders. They kidnapped and tortured and murdered Civic leaders civic activists the families of civic activists and leaders. It is a war of extermination and genocide Putin is very clear about it. He talks about the war In terms of the great sars of the past. He talks about returning lands that are primordial russian lands It is a war of conquest. It cannot be even more Clear than it already is that this is a war of conquest if you look at all the propagandists of the russian regime If you look at people like jugan who outright called for a genocide of the cretin that is his words He said the only solution is to kill kill kill ukrainians I'm telling this i'm telling you to this as a professor. That was jugans statement jugan has called for a genocide of the cretin calling the ukrainians a race of sewer dwellers The pudin regime aparachics they talk about this as a war of conquest. They openly support genocide You have russian regime propagandists Who say that the only solution is to kill those with ukrainian national consciousness? So they they are very open about this. They say the only solution is to exterminate those who believe in the ukrainian nation And so no matter how many fudges that jackson and the russian propagandist try and introduce to the debate Oh, it's about nato blah blah blah blah Pudin himself tells the world every day He is he is returning to the tradition of the sars He is conquering lands that used to be russian and will always be russian in his mindset There is nothing that There is nothing the ukrainians can do he insists that they cannot be a nation He believes that they must exist only subordinated to the russian regime So pudin believes that ukrainians cannot exist as a nation have never existed as a nation He compares himself to peter the great They talk about taking back their lands. It is a war of reaction. It is a war of imperial conquest and blah blah blah nato blah blah blah nato expansion victoria newland Euro maiden blah blah blah all the stupid lies that and propaganda smear that jackson will try and introduce into the debate Fundamentally, this is simply about the ukrainians insisting on their own nationhood their own independence as a people in the country As an as their own culture, you know kiv is hundreds of years older than moscow ukraine existed as a country before russia existed as a country ukraine has always been an Entity in its own right that is not russian and the russian propagandists hate that they insist that ukraine cannot exist They must destroy ukraine if it exists as it's if it exists in its own independent entity If it exists as an independent entity, it must be destroyed and that is the that is the fundamental idea that is driving the war the war of imperial conquest If the ukrainians exist, they must be destroyed They must be returned to to a position as subordinate to the russian empire as slaves And fundamentally jackson is arguing for the enslavement of an entire people to the whims of the russian imperial empire And that is why what he supports is genocide and brutality torture rape the rape of civilians every day now ukrainian civilians are being tortured. They're being bombarded in terror raids Just the other day we saw footage of terrified ukrainian school children in kiv Running as the missile raid sirens went up overhead And so jackson can yell about nato expansion. He can you know fudge the debate with oh blah blah blah the euro made uncoup But fundamentally what he is supporting Is the terrorization of those school children running for the running for the bomb shelters as we saw the other day Every single massacre and atrocity that we see the booker atrocities the massacres of civilians That is fundamentally what jackson supports and he says this is he may say this is about Protecting the russian speakers of ukraine blah blah blah the people of the donbas Swemptaneously rising up and yet it is the sad irony of the so-called Special military operation that it is the russian speakers of ukraine who have been most brutalized and tortured and destroyed And and brutalized by the russian regime It is the russian speaking cities that have been bombarded and razed to the ground mario poll Backmort all these cities that have been basically razed to the ground in And putin says oh well, this is about supporting the russian speakers and yet probably the victims the most probably the people who've been Most victimized in ukraine are the russian speakers. They are the ones who have Primarily dealt with the terror bombing raids the murder the torture And this is what jackson supports everybody. This is what jackson supports every time that the civilians of ukraine Are tortured and hounded and bombarded Then this is what he supports and he will talk all about, you know russia's america's illegal interventions in the past the iraq war Serbia blah blah blah and yet fundamentally it is russia here that is waging a war of imperial ingression This is russia invading a sovereign nation trying to depose its government trying to destroy an independent nation culture Everything he accuses the united states government of doing this is what russia is doing right now as we speak And he's defending it All right, well, thank you everybody for uh drew and jackson for your intro Statements there. Uh, just wanted everybody to know we do have a poll in the live chat was russia Was russia war justified in their war on ukraine? So everybody get your votes in there We're gonna kick it into an open discussion there between drew and jackson Just want to remind everybody that we're doing a q and a at the end of this conversation So if you have any questions related to the subject Of on is russia's war on ukraine justified throw it in the live chat and we'll read it out And you can get some more detailed insight into what our speakers are thinking on these subjects So without further ado drew and jackson. We're going to kick it over discussion open discussion We usually kick it over to the other side. So jackson. I'll let you Kick it out offer our open discussion. Okay Brilliant um So drew do you think that ukraine should give their territory back to the mongols? stupid non-secret not stupid non-debate why Just bullshit just straight up No matter you will try as I said Jackson is going to try and fudge with all this stupid Propaganda smears and lies and turnarounds and he's going to try and introduce false dichotomies and confuse everyone This is the style of russian propaganda. Oh, what do you think about the mongols? What do you think about ukraine giving land back to the mongols? No, the fundamental here is russia is invading a sovereign nation It's trying to depend destroy an independent country a government that was elected by the ukrainian people They are trying to destroy that and russia jibber jabber jibber jabber as an independent entity and it's all right Yeah, let's go. You can it's it's just a bunch of jibber jabber. So you made the argument that uh kiev was Presidents before moscow, but you failed to mention that Kiev was it was kiev and ruse which was like they were the early founders of russia So you fail to mention that they just had a different capital But uh, I mean why if if that's your argument or part of your argument I'm not gonna you know, I'm not gonna straw man you and say that's your whole argument But if that's part of your argument Couldn't you just as well make the argument that because the mongols controlled ukraine that ukraine should hand it back over to the mongols The mongols never the mongols did not control ukraine jackson. This is just stupid The mongols controlled russia should russia should russia give up. You're right. They controlled kiev and ruse as you put it Okay, so we're done with that point as for ukraine being a sovereign country because you failed to answer that question As for ukraine being a sovereign country How do you how do you? How do you couple that with your argument about poland in world war two if the sovereign government of ukraine was deposed in a us-backed coup. They illegally couped the president yanukovic No, it was not an illegal coup Yanukovic was turning his snipers on the ukrainian people He sent the thuggish right police to brutalize teenagers on the yura madant on the madant square It was not an illegal coup by any means yanukovic fled the country after being after the parliament Voted against him. So he fled the country to russia in exile. This is a thug He was before he'd ever took power, you know, he was involved in the theft of state resources in ukraine He was originally a gangster. He was he went to he served time for assaults and robberies This was a gangster. He was backed by pewden and when he when he lost in 2004 He tried to poison his opponent. He lost in 2004 came back and when he came to power he He was deposed in a popular revolution because he sent his right police thugs onto the madant square to terrorize teenagers terrorize teenagers and then they've turned the snipers on on civilians and how many ukrainian civilians were kidnapped from the madant square and tortured and their bodies were found later frozen in the woods tortured tortured to death by yanukovic's thugs This was no coup by any means. He fled the country after losing popular support He feared what would happen to him after he turned snipers on the ukrainian people and killed innocent people and he probably didn't want to spend his life in prison and so he fled to russia his patrons and He fled he he actually left the country without a government because he fled to russia. Okay, we'll get to that We'll get to that. We've got a lot to break down already, but we'll get to that part. So, do you know what the uh ukrainian vrkobnerata stated uh requirements their constitutional requirements are for an impeachment I I understand that the impeachment process was perhaps. I mean perhaps it did not Question What is the ukrainian constitutional requirement? What what does the ukrainian constitution say when the President flees the country to russia. I mean, he also abandoned his duties. He abandoned the country He fled to russia and so yes the impeachment vote may not have gotten the two-thirds majority was required But what does the ukrainian constitution say when the president flees the country for russia? So first of all your final answer is that you needed a two-thirds majority to impeach the sitting president of ukraine I I will leave it up to you jackson on that one. No, I'm just asking because that's what you just said Well, I mean, you're going to have little small gotchas. Oh, drew got a small fact here and here in there Incorrect. Well, it's it's not really a small thing here is that yanov kovic fled the country. Did he not? If it's if if that's a small fact, I don't think that's a small fact because if I'm wrong about that Then they the vrkotna rada would have met the constitutional requirement to impeach yanov kovic in 2014 Unfortunately for you the constitution says nothing about when the president turns snipers on the people the constitution says nothing We can talk about that drew we can talk about that to civilians in in an episode of mass repression So yanov kovic violated the ukrainian constitution first Drew have the authorities in um, the united states or australia to be honest, I don't know australia, but Of the authorities in the united states ever faced a coup or anyone called for coup against authorities in the united states for Killing unarmed civilian protesters here That there is no there is no coup jackson. There is no coup. You're going to get it. But you're trying to bog down the debate Okay, has anyone been impeached? Of the ukrainian constitution. No, the fundamental is yonikovic fled the country after trying to murder civilians And when he wasn't able to murder enough civilians to remain in power He fled the country to russia and that is the fundamental here That is what started the war in ukraine russia invaded straight after and jugan started up started up saying We need a genocide of the cretin the ukrainians are a sewer race That this is what the russian propagandists immediately started pushing and then gerkin Went into sloviansk with his with his people. It was a russian operation. He was working on behalf of malafide The russian oligarch who's close to pewden the entire operation of the donbass. There was no spontaneous revolution This was always from the start a russian backed military operation gerkin in fact was talking about um creating a Operation in the donbass Okay, so I mean like I want to have a conversation with you because I you know if if you can teach me something I don't know I would be surprised about this because I feel like I've studied a lot But if we're going to have a conversation It can't just be me asking you a question or me saying something brief and then you going on for like five minutes about the entire history Your history of the events over the past, you know eight years So let's just keep it relatively simple The verkav narada says that to impeach a sitting president of the country ukraine You have to get three quarters majority not two-thirds majority as you said to impeach the president They were 10 votes short. So now you're saying well, maybe it wasn't a legal technically impeachment, right? Uh, but you know, this is warranted because Yanukovych had fled the country. So tell me what day did the vote of the impeachment take place? Listen, listen, jackson. I'm not going to be bogged down In the euro maiden coup narrative. I'm not going to let you bog down the debate. That's what you're just talking about This is fundamentally jackson jackson. This is fundamentally a question of is russia's current terror bombing strategy in kiev Is it's is it's current torture murder bombardment of ukrainian civilians across the country? Is that justify it has nothing to do with euro maiden even if Even if in your crazy narrative, you were able to prove that it was a coup It would not justify russia's terror campaigns against the ukrainian citizenry It's brutal war of aggression imperial conquest and even if it is about the euro maiden Even in your narrative. Oh, it was the euro maiden blah blah blah Why does that how does that relate to pewden? Comparing himself to peter the great talking about recovering lost russian lands. What does that have to do with the euro maiden? Good point. We'll get to that. So you don't know what day the impeachment vote took place Jackson i'm not getting bogged down in Well, no, you you know, you brought up true. You brought up no, no, listen I'm sorry to cut you guys off. I don't want to uh place any mutes But uh, where we did just do kind of like a cross examination from euro and jackson What we'll do just because uh, drew did uh, kind of answer a lot of questions there and I know he got to Talk for a little bit. Uh, we'll let drew ask his question and then we're going to let you speak for a little bit there Okay, jackson Okay All right, so you can ask what's the question drew because you just asked me how does that connect to Uh, you know, peter the great right? That was your question. Well, no, no not peter the great What i'm saying is every day now you see pewden You see pewden comparing himself to the former stars and he's talking about recovering lost russian lands and the russian propagandists Say that there is no such thing as a ukrainian independent state ukraine has always been subordinate to russia ukraine and russia have always been one There's no such thing as any type of where's the question? So my question is Given the russian regime is clear about the war being about imperial conquest And clear that it is about ending the independence of ukraine. What does that have to do with urmaidan and your narrative of the urmaidan in 2014? I must have missed those points that pewden made in his opening speech on february 24th because i heard him talk about Demilitarization of the NATO armament in ukraine and denazification And uh, okay now that i answered your question because imperial conquest was never a stated goal or anything like that um I just have to point out the reason why i was asking the question about the Date in which the impeachment vote took place that the impeachment vote which fell 10 vote short was because At when i brought up that point you said well, it doesn't even if it was illegal. It doesn't matter because yannikovic had already fled the country Unfortunately for you that's that's neither true Uh, the impeachment vote took place on february 22nd of 2014 On february 23rd yannikovic was in karkov. So he was still in harkov On the day after it took place, which means he was in ukraine once this took place and they failed to impeach him And then on february 25th yannikovic two days later after the impeachment vote He arrived in Crimea, which at the time was also ukraine and the new government was installed on the 25th So you said that you know the coup legitimate or not You know what what date? What date was the russian invasion of ukraine in 2014? Uh, well, that's not relevant to this point. I'm making right here. Why is that not relevant? We're talking about you know the legitimate process by which ukraine changes changes government. Okay, what russia invaded ukraine in 2014 It was every 24 days. I'll answer your question if you let me talk Because if the sovereign government is being deposed in a violent western backed coup And the people who are speaking out against this coup are being brutalized They're being killed those participating in maydan were killed by georgian snipers at the behest of ukraine to make this look worse And it actually was that is actually insane That's true though. It's true That so if a sovereign government is toppled The sovereignty of the country itself goes up in smoke and I think again, you know You'd probably understand that argument given poland in world war two, but um, so I just don't understand How This is now irrelevant after you made the point that well, it was a legitimate coup Then you changed your answer and said well, maybe it wasn't legit. There was no coup dexon. There was no coup yennecovic for the country Whatever you want to call it So you're saying it was a legitimate impeachment. Then you said well, you know, maybe it wasn't legitimate, but You know it made sense and it was all fine because he had fled the country So do you recognize that he didn't actually flee the country prior to this vote taking place? Despite what you said russia invaded russia invaded on february 24th There was a sniper massacre on february 20th clearly clearly russia had coordinated its Assault on Crimea and its invasion of ukraine With the sniper massacre with the with the way events were climaxing There was a systematic plan by russia in place to invade ukraine destabilize the country the sniper the snipers were russian yennecovic yennecovic was behind the sniper massacre And this was this was already a country whose sovereignty was being Failed and trodden over by russia basically russia demanded that yennecovic withdrawal from the european associate agreement and he was basically putting a veto on ukrainian foreign policy And when the protesters Went out into the streets against that then yennecovic under pressure By putin because we know that putin was in constant common We know that putin was in constant communication with yennecovic through the uremadan revolution We know that putin was encouraging yennecovic to brutalize the protesters he was encouraging yennecovic always to escalate carry out violence against the protesters and And putin was the one who was encouraging yennecovic to carry out a slaughter a massacre and when This did not work Then russia had the plan to invade ukraine and they invaded ukraine on february 24th Very very much connected with the events on the uremadan So this was always from the very start you accuse the west of interfering in ukrainian affairs and ukrainian politics It's ukrainian sovereignty well It was actually russia who invaded at the start of 2014 russia invaded because they wanted a veto on ukrainian foreign policy And when they weren't able to have a veto on ukrainian foreign policy And when they failed in pressuring yennecovic their Their pay when they failed in pressuring their client yennecovic to massacre protesters russia just straight out invaded And so everything you accuse the west of when it comes to the uremadan so-called coup everything you accuse the west of was actually Is actually right there in the actions of the russian government the attempt to abrogate ukrainian sovereignty The if you're talking about a coup i mean russia was pressuring the ukrainian president to basically Take out and basically carry out an auto coup in in effect carrying create a dictatorship by carrying out acts of mass violence and slaughter and so If anything it was russia that was encouraging yennecovic to carry out an auto auto coup or a coup d'etat to To seize power Through the use of violence carry out a massacre of the residents of the uremadan And when this was not possible russia straight up invaded so everything you accuse the west of doing with regards to ukraine in 2014 the so-called foreign interference etc etc Well, it was actually russia that was guilty of all of that so um You want to lock so i know that was a lot of talking but you want to lock in your answer that russian troops landed in Crimea prior to the impeachment taking place and prior to yennecovich fleeing that's your the the Russian invasion began on february 24th uh So that's incorrect. It started on february 27th No, that's incorrect russia the the little green men began infiltrating the crimian peninsula on february 24th Uh Okay, well, even if it is february 24th, you said it was february 20th a moment ago And i said the sniper massacre took place on the 20th of february No, you said that they went into i was actually shocked i had to look it up because you said that The russians went into Crimea on the 20th. I was shocked. I was like, uh, maybe i said the sniper massacre began on the 20th And the russians went in on the 24th Okay, so the russians went in on the 20th 24th Okay, well that that lines up with what i understand to be the case and that's actually true because The ukrainian governments had already illegally done this phony impeachment on yennecovich and deposed him from power While he was still in the country. They did that on the 20 Uh, the 22nd is when they did it They installed an interim president on february 22nd after they failed to impeach yennecovich So they actually illegally deposed him from power He was still in harkov and uh, he was in harkov on the 23rd and primia on the 24th So what you're saying is that after there was an illegal Well impeachment illegal impeachment as you put it Uh, the russians decided to go in. Yeah, that's your point I'm just saying by the way, there was actually there was actually no precedent for the ukrainian president fleeing the country and Abandoning his duties. And so this was a completely unprecedented situation. What are you reading from? I'm not reading from anything. I've I've I've got my sources my books that i've been consulting with So you are reading from something I'm not reading something. I mean i've got sources that I consult with because i'm not an idiot So what's your source on that? I'm reading timothy snyder many of many of his books Uh books on the urmaid aren't et cetera You got a problem. What's what's wrong jackson? What's wrong? He's gone silent Make your point My point is yennecovich fled the country This was the this was the conceptually unprecedented situation He fled the country He fled the country He fled the country to russia It doesn't matter it you were trying to claim this was a false impeachment. No, you fled the country This this is the only material jackson It was three days after the illegal impeachment took place He he disappeared before that no he was in harkov and he was in primea On february 20 well according to wikipedia on february 22 yennecovich could not be found Parliament was not informed of his whereabouts and where was he on the 23rd the day after the impeachment? He was in harkov and then on there were unconfirmed media reports. He had flown to kharkiv He was in the heart of the ministers had disappeared including interior minister zahara chenco who had reportedly fled to Okay, it was a situation. He was in harkov. He was in harkov on the 23rd and on the 25th Unconfirmed media reports at the time So what's your confirmation otherwise? Where was he? This is this is this is just you know bogging down the debate Okay, yeah, we can move we can move on. I feel like we I feel like we hit this one You know, we really we really did it some numbers on this one. So anyway, so the it's not an illegal It's not an illegal coup if yennecovich fled the country. All right. Well, I agree with that before we So he just made his final point on this We're gonna move on. I'm gonna make my final point on this just to summarize february 22 the illegal impeachment took place yennecovich Was deposed and there was an interim president installed the next day yennecovich arrived in harkov on the 25th three days later yennecovich was in primia and that's when The the russian troops began to appear after he was illegally deposed and once he was still in ukraine So glad we got that out of the air and drew can have his differences. So drew. Uh, what's your next point? All right. Well before we kick it back over to you drew there I'm just going to remind everybody that we are doing the q&a at the end of Our debate here. So if you have questions for drew or jackson, I see you guys have quite a lot to say in there So turn it into a super chat and we'll read it at the end of the show With that point that jackson just expressed there We're going to kick it back over to drew and let our open conversation continue going And thanks again drew and jackson for being here to have this discussion. So back over to you drew So my point is Even even in your narrative of the uro made include blah blah blah How does that justify the russian invasion in 2022 The attempt to depose an elected government the attempt to destroy ukrainian nationhood The bombardment of ukrainian cities the terror that ukrainians have suffered over the past year. How does that justify? All the brutality that has taken place You've got your lies and your propaganda narrative about the uro made on in 2014 And apparently in your worldview the ukrainian government ceases to Apparently in your worldview ukrain ceases to have sovereignty in 2014 because of your so-called narrative of the coup Even though russia was encouraging yana kovic to carry out an autoku basically slaughtering ukrainian civilians So as to prop up his regime Russia was in russia was encouraging yana kovic to carry out an autoku By slaughtering protesters when this didn't work when he couldn't kill enough protesters to Institute to keep himself in power. He fled to russia and russia russia had these plans in place already It's very obvious because they invaded within days of the sniper massacre. They begun illegally annexing Crimea There was no there was no justification for this. This is the illegal annexation of another sovereign nation's land And I don't understand how in any way This can justify the murder the atrocities that we have seen we see vagna for example Wagner, okay. Okay. Okay. Let's take it. Let me let me say i'm still going. I'm still going jackson There are ex vagna fighters. How long are we going to fight us? Who have on video? They are saying 15 seconds, bud They they are saying priggers in ordered us to slaughter ukrainian civilians We went into cellars and we slaughtered ukrainian civilians. They they talk about slaughtering five and six-year-olds So how can you justify this jackson? How can you justify the murder the tear up the oppression? I'm sure those interviews were a hundred percent real Um, so anyways, you're yes. I'm sure So, uh, your question is how does maydan relate to all of this? How does the coup relate to all of this or illegal impeachment as you put it? um The way it relates to everything that's happening now is because when that illegal impeachment took place You had people in the donbas and people even in odessa Who were trying to speak out and essentially declare their autonomy people in donetsk and logonsk and crimea all did that Crimea was the only region that was formerly incorporated into the russian federation at that time But donetsk and logonsk also took votes in which the overwhelming majority I think it was like 85 to 97 percent depending on the republic and the region of the republic they voted to join Or to become independent peoples republics crimea voted with the 86 voter turnout 97 of the people voted to join the russian federation After this took place the key of authorities that were installed in this as you put it illegal impeachment began to Wage a campaign of asymmetrical warfare against those civilians in the donbas 15 000 people were killed In the fighting And putin tried on multiple occasions to establish peace accords the minsk accords the minst two accords Which were rejected. We now know they they were not implemented by way of western pressure ungola merkel former chancellor of germany at the time admitted it as such just about three months ago and Then that that's what happened in the lead up to the russian invasion. We saw a dramatic increase in ukrainian shelling of the donbas civilians and That's what prompted the the spark to try and protect the people in the donbas putin wanted to protect the people in the donbas formally incorporate those regions to to save the people there and D not spy and d nato spy ukraine overall D nazi fire. Okay. Well Regarding your narrative of the spontaneous uprising of the peoples of the donbas, etc, etc How do you square that with the reality? Which is Igor gherkin stroke of he himself says After all, I press the launching trigger of war if our squad did not cross the border at the end All would have been finished as in kharkiv or a desert because russia tried to ferment rebellions in kharkiv and a desert and they fail and so Gherkin infiltrated With 50 men they went to sloviansk and he says himself practically the flywheel of war Which lasts until now was launched by our squad and I bear a personal responsibility for what is happening there That is Igor gherkin himself and Igor gherkin a colonel in russian military intelligence He was employed by malafi the russian oligarch close to putin Known as the orthodox oligarch malafi quote these this is my own this is my own research Quote malafi ukraine is part of russia. I can't consider the ukrainian people as non russian So malafi working for putin infiltrates a squad of russian militants into the donbas And just knowing gherkin's history as well gherkin was someone who was present in bosnia fighting near visigrad Visigrad is where the serbians carried out rape camps. This is where the serbians carried out Like incredible atrocities genocidal atrocities They would lock hundreds of civilians in homes and burn them alive incinerate them alive. They carried out rape camps Gherkin was there gherkin was there at visigrad fighting with the serbs as a paramilitary operative He then was that he was then in chechnya in chechnya. He himself was responsible for numerous force disappearances murder of innocent people He this is a this is an absolute brutal militant someone who believes in basically the russian imperial idea He believes in going back to the sar. He was working for malafi who again he believes in a sar of russia He is malafi was the one behind the double headed eagles society where they promote You know going back to a sar etc. Etc. Etc. This is the sort of ecosystem of fascists who were behind this jugen was carrying out Jugen was basically saying we need a genocide of the ukrainian cretin We need a genocide of the suor duela ukranians. This is what gherkin this is what jugen was saying at the time and gherkin And and jugen was employed by malafi as a propagandist He was employed by malafi on malafi's tv stations And so there was an ecosystem of russian fascists working on behalf of pewden And they were talking very openly about resurrecting the imperial idea going back to imperial russia And gherkin someone who was present in chechnya Disappearing citizens present carrying out war crimes in bosnia gherkin himself. He infiltrates slavians And he carries out the he's the one who starts the war. He said he himself says he says We were the ones who started the war So how do you respond to that when you say oh, it was a spontaneous demonstration. It was a spontaneous uprising Uh, because 97 of the people voted to become independent there. So that's completely fake. No one believes in the fucking fake referendums So I provide a substantial counter to your Wrap there's no substantial counter. You're just these are fake referenda people the russian troops go around and give people the ballot box Do you really think they could vote against it? All right, so before we kick it back over to jackson With his objections to your statement there I'm just going to remind everybody that we did have a poll in our live chat here a modern day debate So if everybody wants to go in there and do a vote on the discussion that we're having here We are going to be doing our q&a at the end here I'm not seeing a whole lot of q&a in there right yet in our modern day debate chat So if you have a question for either of our speakers definitely get it into our live chat so we can keep our conversation going and Maybe address some of the points that you might feel like our speakers may not have gotten to so Without further ado, we'll get it back over to you jackson in your objection to drew statement there Um, you asked well, how do you think they could have voted against that? Hundreds of thousands of people did vote against it No, you're claiming that it's 97% But do you know how many people voted? My god, man, like the donbass has been depopulated after years of war You've even got you know the military figures of the donbass saying there are no men between the ages of 15 No, no, no, no, no, no, no You're claiming tens of millions of people voted in the donbass and it was 98 for russia No, drew you're a misunderstanding. I guess then i'm talking about the 2014 referendum when this was all happening That there was no there was no possibility for a free and fair vote when russian Why did hundreds of thousands of people? Why did hundreds of thousands of people vote against it becoming independent? There was there was no possibility for a free and fair vote On the status of crimea when it was occupied by the russian forces and do you know so I've got a very interesting let me let me tell you this is the backdrop. This is the backdrop right to the referendum I will school you a little bit jackson. I'll I'll school you a little bit. So do you know the name? I want to ask you this. I want to ask you this. Do you know the name? scriptnik So, how come that how come do you know scripting? Do you know scripting? How come you get to ask your questions? I'm gonna mute you know the name Do you know the name resets amatov jackson? Why do you get to ask your questions? But when I ask you a simple question This is directly related to your point about the I don't interrupt you either. I don't interrupt jackson jackson So I ask you a simple I ask you a simple question about the referendum of the independence of the regions that are now at the center of this war And you said it was bogus. I said, why is it bogus because it's no Well, let's let's all right. Let's let's all right. Let's let's play fair then Jackson has this question for you there Drew, let's give you a minute to answer that and then drew we'll let you ask your question to jackson and we'll get as deep as we can with that In your response in response to your claim that this was a fair referendum I would like to ask you. Do you know the name jackson resets amatov? Uh, my question was not do you know the name reset amatov just yes or no The moderator just asked you to answer my question about the hundreds of thousands that voted against it I'm I'm answering it by asking you about recent reset amatov. You can't answer that. Okay. I will tell you about it Amatov Yeah, thank you. Sorry reset amatov was a Crimean tata on the day that When when Crimea was annexed When the little green men began showing up outside the Crimean parliament reset amatov went and he carried out a lone protest as one individual A silent protest against the annexation. Do you know what happened? Gurkin's lieutenant script Nick He carried out a broad in a kidnapping in public in public a public kidnapping in in broad daylight I've got the video and I can actually show you. I'm saying what region? This was in Crimea. So not we're just showing you the background of terror I'm saying that this is the background of terror that occurred With reference to your bogus referendums reset amatov was abducted or daylight by script nicks men Who was in turn? You know Someone who works very closely with gurkin all of them met russian military avatar russian military intelligence Amatov was found a few weeks later. His eyes gouged out tortured to death Now this was a this was a Crimean tata a man with a family a man who carried out a lone protest In Crimea and he was tortured to death by russian military Intelligence you can actually see the video of him being pushed off the square Abducted and brought daylight by the russian men. So this is the background of terror I'm just explaining to you the background of terror that occurred in Crimea and the occupied areas Of the donbas This is what was happening in the background when russia was carrying out its fake referendum So how the hell can we believe that these were real referendums and it really expresses the will of the people How many people as well were fleeing the fleeing the vans are not able to vote All right, let's get back to jack. I Okay, well, I could just as easily say well Look at the massacre of the dozens of individuals in the odessa massacre where you saw ukrainian nationalists and government figures present And the fire, uh Well in the it was they were throwing molotov cocktails into the odessa trade union house when people were simply peacefully protesting With a stand in tables outside of the odessa trade union house Nationalists came in forced them into the trade union house and burned like 50 or 60 of them alive Those who didn't burn alive jumped from the third floor of the building and died in doing so So I could bring up that point, but to be honest It doesn't have I mean it has something to do with it But it doesn't have a whole lot to do directly With the events in logonskin donetsk, which I was just talking about and I asked you a question Why were the events in donetsk in logonsk illegitimate if hundreds of thousands of people Voted against the independent, uh, nature of the referendum and in addition to that Contrary to the events in uh in in Crimea. There was no russian troops present in donetsk or logonsk No, no russian troops present this this was an invasion from the very get-go You can actually I gave you gherkin's quote where he said if it wasn't for us And if it wasn't for us infiltrating into ukraine across the russian border, there would be no war That was gherkin's quote himself and I also gave you an example of a ukrainian citizen who was tortured to death He was found with his eyes gouged out in crime. Yes Yes in Crimea simply for holding a sign outside the Crimean parliament You don't contest that happen This is an example of the terror campaign that the russian occupation authorities Wage across all the occupied regions and so given this terror campaign happened There's no way we can say this a fair and free vote So so by that logic, then it's definitely not a fair and free votes That's because 60 people were massacred in the odessa trade union house So you get what you're saying, right? You say just because one individual was allegedly killed in this brutal torture method Uh, which you know, I I can't say I'm feeling that I didn't have to cross I didn't come on. Let me finish You claim that this one individual this, uh, you know Crimean tartar was brutally tortured That happened. I'd have to say that's discussing but, uh, you know The end of the day you also are making this argument while refusing to acknowledge the argument Of the repression of the people in donetsk in Lugansk the violent massacres of people in odessa It's like this doesn't exist and this one Crimean tartar massacre exists in some sort of a vacuum for you There there was no repression of the people of luhansk in donetsk Really? Why okay, so why did 97 of them like I asked you earlier vote to become independent? Answer the vote was fake simple Why what's your proof? It was fake Because I've given you examples of russian terror campaigns against the citizens of occupied areas So you gave me an example in Crimea And and votes and also votes in russia are themselves not free and fair So why would I trust anything that russia says when it comes to fake referendums in elections? Well, russia didn't host the referendums in donetsk in lugansk It was donetsk in lugansk independent authorities who did that there was no independent authorities I gave you the example of gherkin infiltrating on behalf of melafife who in turn was working for For putin and they're actually wiretaps wiretaps showing direct communication between gherkin melafife melafife I'm just gonna tell you the millions of people who voted in this referendum in 2014 in donetsk in lugansk to become independent peoples republics They probably have no idea who you're talking about. Okay. They voted to become independent peoples republics Gherkin was the military the the head of the defense ministry of the ministry of the fake republic Okay, so how many people do you think could name the uh the defense secretary of the united states of america that live in the united states men Don't play dumb jackson. Everybody knows who gherkin stroke of stroke of is do you know who the defense secretary? Do you know who the defense secretary of the united states is? This is just this is stupid cement. Oh, it's a good It's a good point you can pretend that gherkin doesn't exist because gherkin doesn't suit your narrative because this is a clear case Of someone who was infiltrating the donbass on behalf of putin It is a clear example of the russian military and russian military intelligence exam Who's the defense secretary of the united states? This is stupid loy dosten Okay, good job. Good job. I don't know if you read that in your chat, but you couldn't answer the question to begin with So, uh, it's stupid jackson jackson. This is dumb. Everybody knows this is you're trying to pretend nobody knows I asked you the question you didn't know when gherkin actually was the one who was this is a clear example Who didn't know the question? You had to look at your chat or something. I you didn't know the question to begin with I don't know if it can be right or something like that So you're saying that each and every of the millions of individuals that voted to become independent were somehow co-opted or privately pressured by Uh, this this defense minister To vote It's just laughable It's laughable to assume that millions of people within a span of like weeks were privately pressured to join the uh The movement for an independent people's republics when you also had hundreds of thousands vote against the measure That is true. You can it's on wikipedia, which i'm sure is one of your favorite sources You had hundreds of thousands of people who voted against becoming independent people's republics Um now the most interesting point of all is that even russia they said that they respected the outcome of the referendum But they would not actually recognize the regions as independent people's republics back in 2014 They waited until 2022 after eight years of violence when 15 000 people had died in the fighting To actually recognize them because of the geopolitically sensitive nature of doing so so Uh, your earlier question was, you know, how does may don how does all this stuff relate? Well, you had may don you had a coup you had people try to rise up when they rose up You had 15 000 people slaughtered and that wasn't going to be ending anytime soon because the west Failed to make good on their promises of the Minsk accords Which were peace proposals that would have brought an into all of this before the war even began and angela merkel admitted it as such With regards to the Minsk accords Minsk was uh sham. It was basically designed to achieve what russia wanted In the first place, which was the dismemberment of ukraine because if if Minsk had been carried out It would have basically bastardized and destroyed the ukraine in constitutional order because it basically would have allowed Each region to have a veto on and conduct its own foreign policy This is obviously you can't have a country and basically Have no central authority. This would have basically dismembered ukraine. And so it's faking that sense but also there is there is no way Jackson that you can actually independently verify the results of the so-called 2014 referendum in the Donbass There is just absolutely no evidence whatsoever. We can't you can say all you like that millions of people's voted There is no evidence for that There's no independent verification of the voting results russia russia routinely carries out sham elections inside russia itself Why would i trust anything that they done that they've done it wasn't independent authorities I gave you the example of gherkin who infiltrated the donbass He's the one who started the war in the donbass everybody knows that he himself says it And he was working on behalf of russia military intelligence at the time Is working for the oligarch melafide and melafide was constantly in communication with pudin and They're a wiretap showing gherkin speaking to melafide all the time and they were coordinating things very closely This was fake from the get-go. This was fake from the get-go and it was russia military intelligence That was behind the annexation of Crimea. It was it was in russian government invasion of the Crimea Look at what happened when gherkin When gherkin infiltrated slaviansk with just 50 men They couldn't hold the city they abandoned the city and there were other there were other russian separatists who were Calling for gherkin's head for abandoning the city because they couldn't hold it So they couldn't hold the city and that's when the russians That's when the russian invasion of the donbass began because the these infiltration squads couldn't couldn't fight the ukrainian military on their own and so Very soon it became a full-on full-on warfare where russian russian military was Intimately involved in the donbass the russian military was part of it part of the war from so I just want to bring Okay, yeah, you've talked long enough I want to bring up a point because you keep saying I mean you can make one argument here But you you're making a false argument. You're making the argument that like uh That this guy was the was in some way shape or form representing russia's military But he was not the russian minister of defense He was not a russian military commander He was the minister of defense of an independent people's republic that hadn't even been established yet Meaning he was one of the donbass civilians by defaults that was Are you fucking kidding gherkin's a donbass? Bro, I let you talk for so long. This is a very very rude It's funny though. It's fucking funny. So well, yeah, you claim That uh, you claim gherkin's a donbass civilian. Holy fuck. Let me talk. Let me talk Jackson speak. We'll give you a minute there. Jackson to uh Yeah, well, he keeps claiming that's like this is some like russian representative or someone who's infiltrated From the russian government or something to that effect. Uh, yeah, you can call him a russian nationalist. Yeah, you can call him a Self-described freedom fighter. You can call him a minister of defense of a region that hadn't even formally recognized its stealth yet But I mean he was not a representative of the russian military There are there is some, you know, there are some kernels of truth that russia did provide some You know heavy artillery to the donbass militias between later on like, you know, like six years after the the fighting broke out But he himself was not a representative of the russian military he was a he was a Just like a russian nationalist who went to fight abroad and he did not represent in any way shape or form the russian government The russian military any in no way shape or form was a part of the russian military command structure with the ministry of defense He was working for russian military intelligence. He was a colonel in the russian military Gherkin has a long history. He's he himself admitted what year He was with the russian military intelligence for 20 plus years and what year didn't himself says He didn't himself says there is no such thing as a retired military intelligence officer. What year? What year? I just gave you I just I just told you jackie year He didn't himself says there's no such thing as a retired russian military Operative you're not giving the year. There's no such thing as a retired intelligence operative in russia And and gherkin was part of russian intelligence for decades So you're not giving the year because he hadn't been a part of the s fsb since 2003 That's why you're not giving me the year. That is such a no That's fake. That's fake. So you just had someone in your chat tell you gherkin wasn't part of it since 2003 That's that's fucking fake putin himself said quote putin quote There's no such thing as a retired intelligence officer in russia That's putin's quote. There's no such thing except for the fact that he did retire in 2003 But putin himself says there's no such thing as a retired officer because for all intent For example, when putin came to power when putin came to power. He had officially retired from the KGB, etc He had an he but you go back through the records He never actually even there's no record of his official retirement if you go back through the records He was still a russian He was still working for intelligence when he was working for the mayor of st. Petersburg Putin was part of the intelligence apparatus You know right up until he became president as he himself says there's no such thing as retired intelligence operative in russia Okay, but you're claiming that he's a representative of the ministry of defense Which is different than just saying like x k gb putin didn't say there's no such thing as retired minister ministers of defense He said there's no such thing as if you're going to take that line of argument, which I What do you mean? What are you talking about? Are you talking about this? He's part of the ministry of defense of the of yes. He was recalled to russia. He was recalled to russia After the shootdown of mh-17 because he actually posted on the day that mh-17 was shot down He posted we told you not to fly in our sky And then and then because of the fucking catastrophe of the shootdown of mh-17 He was recalled to russia. So he was he was a russian nationalist that went rogue as a factional I was going to say i'm so sorry. We do love the enthusiasm there, but uh You know, this has been a great conversation But we do have to try to mitigate how much we're cutting off each other So we're going to let jackson continue on before we forget what we're talking about Yeah, thank you. So um, so this is uh, you know, I I actually personally wish putin would have intervened officially much earlier than he did I think they waited way too long But uh to launch this special military operation into the former ukraine they waited way too long and even into the former ukraine Okay, can we can we start with the they just asked you not to interrupt It's insane. What you're saying then you're you're saying I wish the invasion and torture and rape with civilians had occurred earlier Let's let's give or we're gonna give jackson one minute there We're gonna give him one with the self-incriminating material his point there. Uh, but once again, we do love the enthusiasm everybody Uh, it's just that we do have to try to mitigate the interruptions here. So back over to you jackson if you Spent half as much time in a gym that you spend blabbering on in this debate. You may have actually lost some weight by now so So funny jackson. This is a road This is a yeah, you're on mute. How's that? Bitch, you've got a russian mail order bride and you think because you've got a russian mail order bride that you're some kind of I'm sorry, drew if you if you take yourself off mute again I'm going to have to prevent you from being able to do that We have to be able to have the back and forth So if you interrupt again, I'm going to have to make it so that we can't take ourselves off mute And I don't want to do that to either of you guys You seem like you're really polite and you're really both passionate about what you're talking about But we do have to try to make sure that we're getting the back and forth So everybody's hearing both sides of the discussion. So Um, we'll let jackson speak here for one minute and we'll kick it back to you And uh, we'll try to keep that going as uh, as a back and forth cross examination type dialogue Where you guys have a lot to unpack there. Okay, so back over to you jackson and then we'll kick it back to drill Yeah, what I was saying was I wish putin did this earlier because when you have uh, the complete sovereignty of a country being sweat away from under its feet and you had Excuse me. You had dozens of individuals being murdered massacred all across the country in novoricea And you also have what then became a bloody Uh war that lasted eight years Yeah, I mean putin 15 000 people died putin should have done this earlier You got on mute yourself. All right. We'll get you out from there Putin should have invaded raped tortured killed ukrainian civilians earlier And wiped out the sovereignty of ukraine destroyed the ukrainian nation destroyed the independence of the ukrainian nation Should have happened sooner in your view Well, there's certain things we can't debate the veracity of on youtube when you talk about certain subjects. So i'm gonna hold the atrocity I've I've I've seen it. I'm so Given they've been real. No, I'll I'll say this I'll say this Uh, given the fact that there was a high level ukrainian Uh official minister who was fired by these elinsky government Over her claims of a certain town that starts with the letter b and with the letter a that's a fucking lie That's a fucking lie straight. She was a fucking lie. What was she fired for trying to deny the buka massacre I've talked to people. We're in buka. I've talked to people who are in buka. I'm not trying to deny I'm I'm not trying to deny anything She made very specific claims about something very specific that happened And she told that all to the press and she was fired for that I can't get into the details of that on youtube or else my account's gonna get yanked But uh, there's a very specific part of that story that she led with in the press and the press actually responded They wrote a joint letter to her saying, you know, we get that this is war blah blah blah But let's try to keep things factual and she was fired thereafter Fucking lies straight lies. Anyways, yes, I do I talked to an Australian cameraman who was in buka He saw the fucking massacre. He saw yeah, I would never deny it. I would never deny it. I would never deny it So, um, but you're claiming that it was Ukraine, which is just fucking insane You're trying to pretend that Ukraine slaughtered its own citizens. This is not true Fucking lie. This is an area that was controlled by the russians. I'm definitely I definitely am not denying busha I would never do that anyone who denies busha should have their entire youtube channel permanently taken away and their livelihood stripped away But we can't talk about blah blah blah blah No, we can we can talk about the 15 000 people that were killed in the donbas because uh, the the majority of those were civilians and I don't think you'd argue with me on that The every single day russia is launching missile strikes on kiv every single day russia is torturing ukrainian civilians in occupied areas They're torture chambers. They found torture chambers for kids They've they've we've had testimony of kids being raped by russian forces We've had testimony of women being raped by russian forces raped in cellars raped in dens We've had testimony of brutal atrocities. We saw bukkah. We saw all the massacres that are taking place What do you want me to say that every single place every single place where the russians are expelled We find mass graves where the local civic leaders were basically exterminated This is a genocide because it's very similar to say like the katyn massacre where they target all the intelligence here The cultural figures the activists they try and basically exterminate the leadership of the nation because they want to destroy ukraine as a nation So every single time you go donbas donbas donbas blah blah blah you're you're made and i'm surprised you haven't gone victoria newland yet Blah blah blah blah blah you can't actually justify the massacre of the ukrainian civilians You can't justify Even when putin himself and all the top russian propagandists and malafit for example malafit the guy who paid who who employed gerkin Malafit the guy who put gerkin into sloviansk and begun the war in the donbas Malafit himself says there's no such thing as the ukrainian nation the ukrainian nation cannot exist so you can't justify a war of extermination and a war of imperial conquest on its own ground so all you can do is Trim around the edges and go oh blah blah blah What was the exact date the impeachment took place blah blah blah blah blah and and try and you know Not try and destroy the debate by by bogging us down in small factual constitutional details of minutiae of 2014 You can't justify the massacres that are taking place right now in this very in this very second in this right now in ukraine So the billions are being terrorized every day by russia You can't you can't justify that and so you can only go and take the debate back to 2014 constantly That's all you can do because you can't justify the war right now as it is taking place and the tactics carried out by the russians Which which are trying to make it a war of extermination I didn't know they had cnn down in australia And by the way your your characterization of the russian smo and their uh, their military operations Call it a war jackson call it a war. You can't say that in jack You couldn't say that in russia because in russia options. It's just interruption after interruption If you were in russia, you can't call it a war. Can you interruption after interruption? You went on solov yov solov yov who calls for nuclear strikes on america How do you fucking live with yourself as a trader to your own country for fuck for fuck what a russian maylord of pride Do you share her with the oligarchs? Let's kick it over. Is she just yours or do you share her with the oligarchs? Let's let him answer that very lucky You're very lucky that you reside in australia and nowhere within uh several thousand mile radius of me Because it wouldn't be good if you did I've said in the past You don't want to mess up the beautiful clothes. Love of love. Let's let i'll mute you That's what jackson finished up this point or james or uh, I forget your name. Sorry. You the moderator should mute That's your pavlau so So the point was you're making that this is some campaign of extermination Again, that's what it all right drew. Sorry. We're gonna have to mute you if you keep interrupting So let's let jackson speak without interruption for his point here, please It almost sounds like what you're describing is exactly what the australian military did in iraq Uh, but you know this this uh, i don't support a strange will cons I'm sorry drew. Let's keep going jackson. Thank you for muting So, uh, even people like colonel douglas mcgregor who in no way is like a russian toady. This guy was the uh senior advisor to donald trump's pentagon Donald trump who gave a lot of arms and a lot of money to ukraine and claims zalinsky is a close friend of his And someone he respects dearly even colonel douglas mcgregor Says that the operations of russia and ukraine have actually been significant in terms of military history due to the fact that there's been a Huge effort and a successful effort by the russians to minimize civilian casualties Now i know we have fucking eyes jackson. We can see the war crimes every day They're fucking shooting people every day. We see the bodies. We see we see the missile strikes on civilian infrastructure We've got eyes. All right. Let's you're right. Let's let let me let me just finish my point then you can you can You know soya out again. So Uh, you're right. They're they're shooting every day the ukrainian air defenses are shooting their own apartment buildings every single day You're right about that. So, um shooting there and Wasn't done drew the not not done so It may surprise you but there's been far less civilians killed Over the past year of what you're describing as the most intense extermination efforts since you know hitler and world war two Then the amount of civilians who died over the fighting in the donbas the asymmetrical warfare led by nazi Banderites in the ukrainian military before these regions were incorporated into the russian federation Less far less civilians killed over the past year than we saw in the donbas Just in mario poll. There were 50 60 70 000 dead. We don't know the full numbers We don't know the full numbers, but we can see from satellite imagery the mass graves We can see the mass grave 15 more seconds. We can see the mass grave. So so you just you just lie constantly Oh, you know, this is this is the most humanitarian war in human history We've got video evidence of you know vagner vagner fighters going We were told by prickers in to shoot children in cellars should exterminate people in cellars Wipe they wiped out full cellars of people No, what about even just in mario poll? They they they had hundreds of civilians hunkering down in the drama theater and they wrote in russian outside Children on the ground and the russian part still bombed it to the ground Hundreds were killed hundreds were killed massacres every single day and you try and say this is a humanitarian war How dare you it's fucking sick Fucking sick. We all have eyes. We all have eyes. We can see the russian war crimes. I went to ukraine I met people who were going who were coming from places like mario poll I met families who were coming from places like mario poll. They had fucking thousand yard stairs They had lost everything and you laugh and you laugh you laugh and you try and monetize them You monetize the invasions And you've got a russian mail order bride that you share with oligarchs. It's fucking sick You you believe in nothing jackson. You believe in nothing. It's just you you defend You defend massacres for fucking money So we are where we are at this point in the conversation what we will do to try to get us Back full circle here and back to the substance of our conversation We're going to put Put our speakers into a two minute closing and then we're going to go into our q&a and that's going to probably spur on a little bit More discussion as we go through there. So everybody who's watching right now if you're in the modern day debate Live chat you can put in a question for either of our speakers and we will continue the conversation going from there So we'll kick it over. Who would like to do that? I yeah, I'll ask because you know We don't always do a traditional format here who would like to do their two minute closing first Um, I'll let fatty go all right. Let's not no no jackson. You go ahead. Let's try not to russian mail order bride You go ahead you go ladies first and let's try no no no no you go ahead the russian mail order bride man You must go first. All right. The man started first. I'll let ladies go Please i'm gonna. I'm going the cup who shares his girlfriend with russian oligarchs. Please go All right, so to both of you and you're running out of breath i'm running out of breath right now I'm gonna mute the two of you Yeah, i'm gonna meet the two of you if i know you're sad every day that All right, so i'm gonna ask the two of you to stop because Right now if we just get into mud slinging we're not going to get any substance And when we boot these over to our podcast all we're going to have is a bunch of mud slinging And you guys calling each other a bunch of names. That's not really useful So i'm going to ask you guys to both be polite. We're going to move into two minute closings And we're going to stick to the substance of our conversation. So, uh Yeah, looking at our conversation will follow the traditional format So we don't get into this discussion again of trying to find an apical way to find out who's going to close Jackson traditional, uh, we're going to let you close it out and we'll give it over to drill All right, you need to unmute yourself. All right, beautiful. Let's uh, let's let's wrap this portion up. So, um, anyways The claim that 50 000 have died in marjupil Um is laughable and it's actually shameful that you'd claim something that insane It's shameful to the people of marjupil. It's shameful to the people Of russia. It's shameful to the people of ukraine. It's shameful to your own family It's shameful to your grandfather. It's shameful to your grandmother It's shameful to your future children that are unborn if you ever find someone to procreate with which i doubt Is ever going to happen. Um, but yeah to wrap things up russia justified. I feel like i made my case My opponent, uh, couldn't you know, list even basic dates of things he claimed took place in a certain chronological order He didn't know the order of events of the coup in ukraine in 2014 He didn't know that it was an illegal unconstitutional coup, which he actually, you know, he said it's an impeachment whatever He did grant me that point that it was at least an illegal impeachment Uh, he didn't know the dates of the events that unfolded in relation to the Crimean referendum and when russian troops arrived. He said it happened five days prior to it actually happening Uh, which is very important for the context of the situation He didn't know how many people voted in donetsk logansk referendums Which is also important because he claims that there is no way for a free and fair referendum Even though hundreds of thousands of people voted against becoming independent peoples republics And i think i'll leave it at that because that pretty much summarizes my argument, which just won All right, well, thank you so much for jackson for being here and presenting your case And we'll kick it over to drew for his closing Statements there for up to two minutes and then we'll get into our q&a and just a reminder to be friendly in the live chat Uh, and to get your super chats in there and we will keep the conversation going as long as we have questions for our speakers And they consent to be here. So over to you drew The cuck of the russian oligarchs the cuck of drona hill he talks about other people's families being ashamed of them And get drona hills Drona hills cut him and and his own parents hate him. I mean i've we've all seen jackson's parents Flaming him on twitter. It's very sad. His own parents hate him. I mean He he could not in any way justify the ongoing massacres torture atrocities carried out by the russian military every single day in ukraine He can't justify He can't justify this on moral grounds. He has to try to pretend that these atrocities didn't happen He has to try to pretend that these this is somehow the most humanitarian war ever conducted Even though we've all got eyes. We can see the russian military launching missiles indiscriminately at ukrainian cities We've seen we we saw the russians for months Boast about how they were going to starve and freeze ukrainian cities into submission We know that this is a war of extermination because in every single town that has been liberated They have been mass graves They have been mass graves and the local civic leaders and activists have all been exterminated Um jackson tries to bring the debate back to 2014 blah blah blah his stupid narratives of 2014 The propaganda narratives that are basically all packaged from oliver stone's stupid documentary But really he didn't even know who uh reset amatov was he didn't know that there were Crimean tartars who were brutally tortured to death because they resisted the russian annexation of Crimea He didn't know about the brutal repression of uh of ukrainian civilians and citizens in regions that were occupied by russia He basically didn't know who gherkin was he didn't even know who started the operation in 2014 He didn't know who started the russian invasion of 2014 He pretended that this was a spontaneous uprising when there is so much evidence that gherkin working for malifif In an oligarch that was very close to pudin gherkin a former colonel in russian military intelligence someone who was basically always in russian military intelligence pudin himself says that there is no such thing as an ex intelligence officer in russia Um gherkin himself boasts about siding the war in 2014 This is someone who's a russian military intelligence operative someone who was working for malifif Working for pudin. There's all these why attack conversations between malifif and gherkin at the time back in 2014 There's all these why attack conversations between malifif going all the way back to the pudin malifif was malifif was Malifif was talking to pudin through uh the shared confessor that they shared which is father tikhon They they were constantly communicating with the russian government the russian military Um and and jackson can't defend the atrocities and the genocide that is taking place He has to just try and pretend that it's not happening. He has no moral thoughts However, he tries to monetize the invasion with fucking ze swastika and um, yeah, he gets cut every single day by his Russian mail order bride girlfriend who is probably shared around with many russian oligarchs And it's very sad I can't believe that someone would sell out so much their own country going on a program with a russian propagandist who basically Um has called for nuclear strikes on the american homeland He sells out his own country for a russian mail order bride who was shared around with uh all the russian oligarchs It's fucking sad. His own parents hate him. Everybody hates jackson. He has no beliefs whatsoever This is someone who defends genocide massacre atrocity the rape of children He hangs out with scott ridder known sexual offender and pedophile. He hangs out with scott ridder So clearly it's jackson has no morals whatsoever. He's willing to hang out with pedophiles defend pedophile russian troops Defend rapist russian troops defend genocidal russian troops all for money and uh, a russian mail order bride who Cucks him every day with russian oligarchs. It's very sad. I have never known an existent more subhuman than jackson's All right, so let's move into our q&a from there everybody. Uh, thank you so much, uh, drew and uh, jackson for being here I know it's been a little spicier For this conversation here, but we don't mind that Just a reminder in our live chat That uh, you know, if you got something spicy to say try to keep it related to the topic so that we can have something substantive Towards the is russia's war on ukraine justified So let us keep going with our super chats and keep them coming in Because our speakers i'm sure will have all kinds of thoughts About these super chats, especially this first one. I mean you're gonna have all kinds of thoughts about this This is from otter for five dollars. He said nice moderating mod really being non-bias. Oh, that's the that's not the first one Five dollars This was the one i wanted to read here because it was about the moderator Which is why i'm being ironic because obviously you guys don't care about that says moderators handsome But still inferior to our lord and savior Good good chat in the flesh James coons james if you're out there watching, uh, the live chat loves you just as much as they always have Um, you know, I wish they loved me as much as they did you but uh, you know, we can't always just get there From a to you know d right from day one So i'm doing what I can everybody but uh, yeah james is james is a hell of a guy. So Thanks for that shout out there Bubblegum gun thanks for being back in the super chats there two dollars drew was the us justified to remove nukes from kuba Um, i'm not i'm not defending american military operations. I'm not defending that With regards to kuba. I mean that has nothing to do with ukraine There are no weapons of there are no American weapons of mass destruction in ukraine. That's a complete lie. That's part of the uh insane russian propaganda narrative I know um, they like to claim that there are bilabs or stupid things like that. It's really insane You know targeting russian dna crazy shit like that. Um, if if anything, uh, poor ukraine because ukraine had weapons of mass destruction nuclear devices on its territory and it decided to um voluntarily give them up to um It give them up in the budapest memorandum where they asked um China russia they asked um multiple countries basically They they asked america as well to guarantee the sovereignty of uh, ukraine and very sad very sad that um, they gave up those those That deterrence because as soon as uh, they gave up the nuclear weapons I know that they didn't have the launch codes, but they still have them on that territory when they gave up the nuclear weapons That's when russia began to um nibble away at ukraine and try and try and force it to be An enslaved country and tried to rape and torture ukraine and civilians. It's really sad that ukraine gave up its weapons of mass destruction because um, you know, that was a deterrent effect potentially Any thoughts on that one jackson or do you want to move on? well That argument would make sense if they were ukraine's nukes as he put it, but uh, you know, they weren't ukraine's nukes And um fatty over here is claiming that oh, you know, ukraine gave up their own nukes No, they weren't ukraine's nukes. They were the soviet union's nukes and um, I mean the thoughts that they would give up ukraine And then say like oh, you know, we're gonna have ukraine ukraine invoked ukraine voted for independence jackson Every region even primea voted for independence even the donbas 90 for ukraine independence This is what the people of ukraine wanted they did not want to be part of the soviet union They didn't not want to be part of russia linin's biggest mistake was giving up ukraine and uh, also I find it funny that ukraine. Oh, no, no true ukraine existed prior to linin ukraine existed prior to linin linin had to create the ukraine in sssr Because he knew that there was no way that the bolsheviks could have ever reconquered if there was no ukraine sssr bad ass Jackson jackson huck huck of the russian oligarch. No. All right. We're not going to be doing any mod slinging and anything like that. So We're gonna let jackson continue on his point. Uh, the speaker that you're talking to his name is drew So we're not going to refer to anybody by any other name Uh, jackson, uh, i'm gonna let you finish up what you're saying there and then we'll let drew close off the uh, The conversation there. Okay So fatty gets to talk about my going to call drew drew I don't want to kick you out of the zoom call. So we're gonna refer to our speaker as drew We came out here to talk to you. So we're gonna have some respect But Let's live refer to the conversation if we can so he gets to talk about my family He gets to talk about me. It's not first I don't we want we want to we want to who did what first because he gets to talk about my family My We're not gonna do that. We're not gonna do that either your woman The russian maya lord abroad shared with the oligarch. We shouldn't know we're not allowed that either So let's continue jackson. Please please jackson listen I know you're jealous that i have a beautiful girlfriend miss universe russia I know you're jealous because you'll never have a woman touch you for the rest of your life So long as you remain as fat as you currently are But there's no reason to do this mudslinging. Okay. So anyways, uh, those were the How many times that she uh slept with russian oligarchs while you've been together? Let's not let us When was the last time you slept with someone fatty so So the Given that everyone knows you lied throughout this entire debate We all know you're lying about that too. So those were the soviet unions nukes and uh, they weren't ukraine's nukes. That's all I got to say All right, drew. We'll let you close that off Um, look ukraine voted for its independence 90 of ukraine voted for independence. Um Even the donbas 90 independence Crimea 57 independence ukraine wanted to be free of russia wanted to be free of the soviet union ukraine existed as an independent entity prior to lenin That's such a stupid propaganda point by the russian propagandists claiming that lenin created ukraine ukraine existed prior to I didn't say that Lenin was making uh Badass making a concession. I'm gonna warn you once more jackson Um, but refer to but drew is anything other than drew. We are gonna have to remove you from the chat So I'm just being fair. So let's let's try to be respectful to one another If any of you have complaints that are a little less obvious to me you can let me know but Let us try to continue on with the conversation So I'll let you finish up their drill. Um, and look ukraine voluntarily gave up weapons of mass destruction on its territory gave up nuclear weapons on its territory That's what ukraine gave up in return for security guarantees by russia the uk and the us and unfortunately that was um an agreement that was not worth the Ink it was signed on paper because russia immediately proceeded to invade And uh, jackson is very immature. You're a depiction of me as jabber the hut very immature I just have to say, um, you know, you've focused on um, you know, the uh The the issues of our physical bodies, etc. It's very interesting how obsessed you are with my physical body Yeah, it is interesting that you brought up. I just have to say I mean, I'm not interested in you My woman. I don't really understand why you're your woman. I don't know man. I don't know if it's your I don't know It's well known that a lot of these russia male I know you've never had a woman so you're interested in the idea I I know that um, I know that Sadly the case that a lot of these russian women are sexually trafficked by oligarchs and stuff like that And I just hope she's safe and I hope you're not fucking abusing her. You know, it's interesting Ukraine is actually the home of child sex trafficking in all of europe So it's interesting, you know russia russia is russia you think russia is a trad society It's got the highest abortion rate in the world. It's got the highest massive hiv rates Um very low rate of church attendance. You claim that russia's this trans society russia has Maybe you're gonna move to russia so you can Compared to what? All right, let's continue on from there. I don't know if you're going to Do you like the fact that putin decriminalized wife beating? Is that why you're interested in having a russian girlfriend? Let us continue on could be because we do you believe in that? I don't know I I do not want to Disrespect to the the live chat here and what our questioner had asked there So we've moved a little bit off the topic here and like I said, we want to try to keep it substantive substantive So, uh, george d for five dollars asked a drew independent journalists reported And videos on youtube available still and international observers were present in the referendum So how they not legit? That's for you drill. No No, there is no independent verification of the Of the referendums the fake referendums as as I've already stated There was a campaign of mass terror and fear and repression carried out against ukrainian civilians under russian russian occupied areas There were dozens of people kidnapped people were killed And so I think there's no way you can say that this was a free and fair vote Absolutely. No, there's no way because people were being killed in russian occupied areas simply for being ukrainian All right, simply simply simply for advocating for, you know continued continued for the continued existence of the ukrainian nation All right, thank you This guy's gonna tell you that like australia is a real country next or that taiwan's a real country or like to bet Taiwan is a real country. Jackson in australia is a real country. You're gonna be like canada's a real country Oh my god. Jackson. Jackson. Jackson. Jackson. Jackson. You you Australia We'll give the floor to jackson here for 20 seconds here and then we're gonna go to the next question 20 seconds. I can end drew's debate true All right, so you had some sorry go ahead. Yeah I want him to pay attention to this If something, something unfortunate that I would never wish to happen, if something like the United States nuking Australia into the ocean or if Australia just hypothetically fell into the ocean, would anyone ever notice Jackson? You are the answers. No. No one would notice. You believe in the genocide and subjugation of countries in the world, such as Australia. I'm actually the one who's fine with the conversation. I mean, I can ask. I mean, you don't have to. But if you could just answer his question, Drew, just for the sake of the conversation and then we'll just continue on. Yeah. My answer is Jackson is an unabashed genocidal imperialist. He believes in imperialism and genocide to answer the question. He wants the global south to be contip forever and not answer the question. And that's why I'm fighting for Australia would sink in the ocean. I don't know. There's not as well. Jackson unfortunately believes in the genocide and repression slavery of, you know, other nations so that, you know, Americans continue to feed themselves with burgers as the world and to answer the question. Well, that I thought that would be his answer. So whether you feel the answer to the question or not, we're going to move on from here just because we have quite a few Q&As here. And I feel like we're going to keep getting down into these discussion rabbit holes, which is fine. That's kind of what we're here for. So 499 from Otter Jackson, who is responsible for the downing of MH 17? How did the LPR and DPR get funded to receive weapons? Irrelevant nothing burger question. That's my answer. How 38 Australians were killed. Hundreds of civilians were killed. It go can admit it. It was him. Australia is not a real country. Very funny, man. Very funny. You believe in genocide and imperialism. You've got a fucking miserable existence. You're basically subhuman because you believe in let's not talk about imperialism, get genocide. Let's not talk about the speakers. Let's continue on, please. So, Drew, George D for $5. Why are you spreading rumors that Ozzie Kozak took his life when you and me know he's been given asylum at the Australian Russian Consulate? I've never said that our Simeon Boykhov took his own life. I know right now he's hiding in the Russian Consulate because he tried to assault the Ukrainian Australian elderly man. He tried to push someone down the stairs. These guys are thug and he's hiding in the Russian Consulate of Sydney because he's a coward and he's a complete coward. So he's hiding in the Russian Consulate of Sydney. I've never said that he committed suicide. That's crazy. But if Simeon wants to denounce by himself, go ahead. All right. Let's continue on. And I do apologize, Otter. If I missed some of the mud slinging there earlier while I was going through the live chat, I do apologize. I do try to keep it to a minimum, so I'm sorry if either speaker, you feel like I didn't rain somebody in because I know you guys have been being a bit juicy with each other. So if I missed anything, I'm sorry. I'm doing my best to be fair and also keep an eye on the live chat. So just know that I'm in everybody's corner when it comes to keeping the conversation going and making sure that things are remaining amicable. So that would be my response to you, Otter, and a little Miss Betty page. You know, I'll try to do better in the future as I go. So Otter for $5. During one time in a democracy where 97 of people agree on anything at all. That's for both of you, I'd say. Um, well, it doesn't really matter if it's a if it's a democracy, it matters if it happened or not. I mean, if you ask 97% of the if you ask 100% of the people by the end of World War Two and Nazi Germany, whether or not they like Hitler, I think you'd have the vast majority of people. Maybe not that number, but a lot of people probably say civilians who vote would say, yeah, no, we don't like this guy and we want someone else. So, um, yeah, I think that's that's an acceptable point you could find in the argument. Yeah. And I think that the, uh, the coup government that was backed by the West is a, you know, is a comparable force, uh, to they're definitely the ideological inheritors of Hitler and Bandera. And also the last point I'd bring up is it wasn't all of Ukraine that voted. It was specifically two regions of the Donbass, it was Donetsk and Lugansk. It wasn't even like, from what I understand, it wasn't even Zaporizhia or all of Harkov. It was just Donetsk and Lugansk. So that would be like asking the question, I guess, to the state of Florida, Florida residents, would you rather have Joe Biden or, um, Ron DeSantis as your governor, obviously you're gonna have the vast majority of people choose Ron DeSantis, their current governor. So, uh, that's, it's just in certain regions you have like ethnic enclaves there. You have Russian ethnic enclaves and they, uh, they supported becoming independent because they didn't profess to support the coup rule that was backed by the West. The same, the same regions that had 90% vote for independence at the referendum when Ukraine was voting for its independence, the same regions. And, you know, there was absolutely no way that there was any free or fair vote in Russian occupied region because Russia has never held free and fair votes. Russia's, Russia's dictatorship, they invaded Ukraine by force and then they held sham referendum. And people who tried to, you know, oppose the invasion, people who protested on behalf of the Ukrainian nation in these Russian occupied areas, they were tortured and killed. So Jackson's a lie. Simple as. All right. Well, since you directed that directly at Jackson, we'll give Jackson another 20 seconds. There was spous on that if you'd like. Uh, the elections were clear. Hundreds of thousands of people voted against becoming independent, but the vast majority of millions voted become independent. And that's why they fought for their independence for eight years. And in 2022, uh, they again had another vote and these regions, Apogea, Herzan, Donetsk, Lugansk and voted to join the Russian Federation this time. And that's why they are now part of Russia and Ukraine's map is again forever changed. All right. Let's continue on from there where that was for the two of you. I've got a question for Jackson. Does, does Jackson believe in independent Ukraine? Uh, depends, I guess, on the era you are talking about and what Ukraine is. Do you think Ukraine is its own separate nation to Russia? Uh, you could make an argument that portions of it are. Portions of it. Yeah, I think that there's probably an acceptable argument that, you know, portions of Ukraine, uh, could stand today as its own state. Um, I think you're going to have pushback, of course, from Russia and Novorossiya. You're going to have pushed back. Yeah, you're going to have pushed back. The fake Russia, Russian region. You're going to have pushed back pretty soon. I think maybe even by Poland in Hungary on the borders of Ukraine. So that's what happens. Russian propaganda. It's Poland has been, Poland has been the biggest supporter of Ukraine during the war. And, um, it's just stupidity. It's idiocy. I mean, you don't. Why has why has you believe you think you think that you you, you asked him a question there. Actually, I think you asked him a couple questions. We'll let Jackson ask you your. What he's asking there. And then we'll try to continue on. So you had asked why. Yeah, I don't, I don't. I don't profess to know what the Polish authorities are going to do, but based on everything that's happening, I mean, why else is Poland expending so much on sending so many men into Ukraine? Why is the Polish government coming out? Why is Duda coming out and saying that in the future, we're going to have a common history. We're going to have a common border. All right, we're going to dissolve because Russia, because Russia. And so let me just finish. Like all in particular. I was going to say. Yeah. Why is why is Hungarian minister prime minister Victor Orban coming out and saying that's the EU and the United States are trying to create a new power structure in a joint Poland, Ukraine after the war on Zalaya. Orban Zalaya. Let's let him ask his question. I know he's taken a little bit, but that's that's all I don't profess and know the answer of Poland is going to move in on Ukraine. But what I the question was, do you think there's a Ukraine state? Let's I think that I think that there's you could say that Kiev is just as much Ukrainian as it is Mongol. Fucking projection on your part. I mean, if anything, Russia was Russia spent centuries under under the Mongols, cave didn't. All right, let's continue on there because we do have other questions related to all of this. And if anybody has any other anything else, they want to pop into the super chats there. We will keep going as long as we have super chats and as long as our speakers are good to continue on. If any of our speakers, though, do need to take a break, go get some water or, you know, go relieve yourself. That's fine. So speak now or forever. Hold your P. Yeah. All right. That's that's on you boys. All right, let's continue on. To drew from my name is Jeffrey $5. What is your response to amnesty? International report in 2014 that conceded that Ukraine alternationalists were shelling civs Donbass and discriminately. Unfortunately, amnesty has laundered a lot of Russian propaganda when it comes to Ukraine. We saw that last year, for example, when Russia invaded Ukraine. Amnesty laundered Russian propaganda claiming that claiming that Ukraine was targeting civilians by because it's soldiers were basing the civilians as though amnesty wanted the Ukrainian soldiers to, you know, sleep out in the open so they could be murdered and killed. I mean, amnesty has shown itself to be completely complete stooges when it comes to the Ukraine, the Kremlin war. And I don't I don't believe anything amnesty says when it comes to, you know, claims against Ukraine. Amnesty destroyed its reputation with regards to Russia. They're still good on some things like China and stuff. But overall, there are big problems with amnesty as an organization because amnesty unfortunately laundered a lot of Russian propaganda in Ukraine. I don't have much to say. The Amnesty International report reports if anything greatly under reported the civilian casualties that took place at the behest of the Ukrainian military. It was a report. So let me just finish. It was a good report in a lot of ways. They exposed the fact that the Ukrainian military routinely use civilians as human shields. That was the main takeaway from the report actually that the Ukrainian military routinely was using civilians as human shields and using them as hostages. So yeah, the Ukrainian military while it is one of the top fighting forces in the world right now. You know, it's second best in all of Europe. No doubt. It is a gruesome band of terrorists and Nazis and war criminals. All right. Any thoughts on that, Drew, or do you want to continue on with the Q&A? Which, I mean, which lie does Jackson want me to address in particular? Which one of his own lies? That's a bit of a loaded question. So we'll continue on with the Q&A if you didn't have anything specific. I mean, look, with regards to amnesty, with regards to amnesty, they had an independent inquiry into the reporting question that you're mentioning right now, Jackson, and eight independent experts verified that the report was wrong and they stuffed up big time when it came to Ukraine, accusing Ukraine. So yeah, amnesty is actually apologizing internationally for that horrible report. And thankfully people are starting to see the truth. I mean, we've all got our own eyes and ears here, and nobody can see this, and we have to really watch the videos. This is the most televised conflict in history, and we can see every single day that war crimes being perpetrated by Russian forces, war crimes that, you, you deny either exist or you know, sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich or alternatively, you defend them. And I think you defend, you know, the slaughter of civilians. It's very sad. I mean, how can somebody be so inhumane defending the slaughter of civilians? the Russian SMO. But the Russians are continually slaughtering Ukrainian civilians. Ukrainians are. Amnesty International proved that. That's a complete lie. Amnesty's actually apologized for that stupid report. They apologized for it and they did take the report down, but they never said any of it was wrong. The only reason why they apologized is because soy boys like yourself got all up into a titty when the truth came out from a Western respected source. No, no. The truth came out when Amnesty apologized and they had eight independent experts verify that that report was wrong. And every single day, we're seeing massive slaughter by the Russian military against civilians. We're seeing indiscriminate missile attacks on Ukrainian civilians. And also Putin and the Russian military and Solovyov and stuff, they talk about, you know, starving the Ukrainians into submission during the winter. Independent freezing the Ukrainians into submission in the winter. They were supporting genocide. They're supporting genocide. And you think it's a humanitarian operation? Jackson fundamentally, the slaughter of Ukrainian civilians, fundamentally, you believe in the death and the murder of your political opponents. Who are the independent experts? There were eight independent experts who verified the Amnesty report was wrong. Who? Go up, Google it yourself. I'm an independent expert. And I say that it was right. You're not an expert, Jackson. You're not an expert. I'm an independent expert. Based on what? Based on me saying I'm an independent expert. Okay, I'm an independent expert. Okay, cool. You're a fucking liar. As an expert, I say you're a fucking propagandist and liar. Let's I say you're a propagandist and liar. Oh my well, we're getting back to our juice again there, everybody. So these guys are how the fuck did you go on Solovyov? How did you actually live with yourself? This guy supports like, you know, nuclear strikes on Kiev. How do you live in your own skin each and every day? Let's Jackson. You have no morals whatsoever. You have no soul. You'll probably burn in hell for all eternity. This is not related to is Russia's You're a synchronized. So let us stop. Like I said, I don't want to go back into mutes at this point. We're winding down as far as like the Q&A. I mean, if you guys want to keep having the Q&A come in, that's great. But if you guys keep interrupting me, you know, we'll have to cut this a little bit shorter. So let's just try to keep that to a minimum. And we'll continue on with the super chest here because we got lots of them. And I think I think there's room for lots of more discussion here. We just like I said, we want to try to keep away from the mud slinging just because it takes us off point, which is not entirely useful to the overall discussion. So counselor guy for $5 supposed defensive alliance involved in Libya and Syria. Russia has every right to not want NATO at their front door. NATO is an agent of chaos. I'll let you guys both expound on that starting with you drill. Russia would not have countries in Eastern Europe begging to join NATO if Russia hadn't spent centuries trying to subjugate and enslave the nations of Eastern Europe. So if given Poland doesn't want to be enslaved to Russia, given, you know, the Baltic states don't want to be enslaved to Russia, I can understand why they wanted to join NATO. I wouldn't want to be enslaved by Russia either. I mean, this is a country that, one fifth of its own population doesn't even have sewerage, doesn't even have indoor plumbing. This is sadly a very dysfunctional country that has been raped and pillaged by the oligarch class. Russia is a very tremendously naturally wealthy country, but it has been raped and pillaged by the elite for decades, the elite that Jackson supports. It's sad. I mean, if Jackson really believed in supporting Russia, maybe he'd support the Russian people against the corruption of the Russian elite. Maybe he'd support, you know, more than one, maybe he would try and maybe Jackson would feel kind of some kind of sympathy for the one fifth of the Russian people who don't even have indoor plumbing. They don't even have indoor plumbing, one of the naturally wealthiest countries on earth. And this is because it's been raped and pillaged by the elites for decades. And, you know, Jackson loves to, you know, as a sicker fan and as a supplicant to power, he loves to try to suck up to the... I was just answering the question. You go to Solovyev and Solovyev, someone who, you know, every day is basically supporting nuclear strikes. You know, this guy's a fucking insane guy. He's a mad dog. He's fucked in the head. He's basically calling for nuclear strikes from London. And he calls for genocide every single day. And you went on Solovyev. I mean, I don't know how you can sleep with yourself at night, Jackson. You're such a horrible person in, you know, every single way, basically. Did I leave one second? You started off as a kind of beneath the porters and you changed retention and it's sad. I couldn't leave for one second. Hold, I just had to close my door there. Now, we're going to kick it back on. You missed quite a bit. Yeah, maybe. I was going to say, I came back and things were right up there again. So once again, Drew Jackson, we love the, we love the passion. That time it was all Drew. I didn't say a word. So I'll just... I think so. So we're going to kick it over to you there. I'll just respond. I'll just respond. So first of all, the Baltic states were looted from the Soviets, from Russia, as you put it. They don't want to live under Russia. They don't want to be under Russia, can't they? They don't want to be under Russia. They were looted. Brestletovsk was defunct after... Brestletovsk was defunct after the war. Germany violated all the terms and agreements. It was defunct after Treaty of Versailles. The Baltic states were looted. So I'll make that point. As for the point of NATO being a rogue terrorist threat, that is true. And even US Secretary of State Baker made the point that, of course, moving anywhere eastward of Germany in terms of NATO armaments would be considered a threat to Russia. He knew that. Every US president knows that. Joe Biden even said it years ago. And, yeah, I mean, NATO is about protecting North Atlantic security. It's about protecting European security in the North Atlantic. So the chatter brings up a great point. What the hell is NATO doing, you know, pillaging Libya? Great point. All right. Any thoughts on that, Drew? Or do you want to go on? NATO intervened in Libya because Gaddafi was openly gloating that he was going to commit genocide against his own people. And obviously, it's very sad what's happened post-intervention. The problem was that NATO abandoned Libya instead of helping to destroy the country. So that's basically the one big failure in Libya. But, you know, getting rid of Gaddafi, that was a beautiful thing for humanity. Well, I happen to believe that Gaddafi is one of the most basement to ever live. He was a very successful leader other than being killed. I'm just going to make my statement. At this point, if you're going to interrupt me, I'm just going to talk over you. One of the most basemen to ever live, he was vilified by the West because he wanted to create a new African union and replace the dollar standard in Africa. And, you know, you know what they found? You know what they found in Libya? They found weapons of mass destruction in Libya as well. You know, you know, that's a copy. Let's give them 30 seconds. It was it was it was giant gold bricks that the Libyans were going to use to help build up their new reserve currency to replace the dollar, which is interesting because now China and Russia are working on developing a new global reserve currency with bricks that they're probably going to announce this August at the Bricks Summit. And the West is very worried again. It's pretty funny. It's funny just because the Gaddafi United States of Africa thing has become like a very funny copy pastor that people post because it's just so stupid like Gaddafi would kill for trying to create a United States of Africa. Very fucking true. Bricks very fucking true when the sea is invading the iron bricks. You know, it's, you know, they're on the cost of de-dollarization. It's a fucking meme. You know, it's very funny because all the anti-imperialists, they, they like to pretend that they're like, you know, against, you know, global American hegemony, blah, blah, they're trying to support the global south. But really, they just want a return to a world based on, you know, spheres of influence with the great powers like, you know, Russia and China enslaving countries in their sphere of influence. And I don't want to live in that world because, you know, I don't want to live in a world where Australia is enslaved to, you know, the new emperor of China. I don't want to live in a world where Eastern Europe is enslaved to the Tsar of Russia. People have a right to self-determination. I'm against colonization. The biggest colonizing imperialist forces in the world today are, you know, China and Russia. And as a opponent of imperialism as someone who believes in, you know, self-determination for the global south, I can do no more than support Ukraine to the full, full maximum of my ability against the imperialist war of conquest. I'm not going to say much. We can move on to the next question, but let me just get this on the record. You are dedicated to opposing imperialism, but you support NATO? Yes. Okay. Because NATO is the biggest anti-imperialist force on earth today because they're opposing Russian imperialism. Okay. And they can help to impose as well Chinese imperialism. So anyone who's anti-imperialist and progressive should support NATO. Yeah. All right. Totally valid argument. Not going to, not even going to question that one. It's true. I support anarcho-natoism. Well, we'll move on from there. Also, just one last question for Jackson that I have personally. Has he responded to, you know, his friendship with Scott Ritter the pedophile? How did he justify that? Well, Zalinsky's a pedophile. You worship a pedophile. Given Scott Ritter is a registered sex offender, how did you justify that? We are fine. You worship the pedophile Zalinsky. See, this has nothing to do with our topic tonight, guys. So we'll continue on. If you guys want to have that conversation. Scott Ritter is actually a registered sex offender. If you guys want to have that conversation, don't make me mute you. I was going to say, if you guys want to have that conversation about anything related to any other subject, we're more than welcome to entertain that. But for now, we will try to make sure that our discussion remains on point. Let's continue on. So, now I got to scroll down. See, I got myself all messed up here. All right. And no, that's a little bit on the. So I will read this one, but I'm going to edit it out just because there is a little bit of a personal insult there, but there is some substance. I have the personal insult. I don't mind. Oh, you know, that's a, I was going to say, I've got to say it. So Harold Sullivan, 999. Why does Drew Pavlov accuse China and Russia of genocide while praising Western imperialism and NATO? I don't support Western imperialism. For example, for example, when, when the Australian military was guilty of war crimes in Afghanistan, I openly called for trials and I openly called for full investigations. That's much more than you're ever going to see in China and Russia, because every single day when the Russian government commits war crimes in Ukraine, they, they award the soldiers that are behind the war crimes. So for example, the, the detachment that carried out the Booker massacre, they gave them awards. So the Russian government rewards, the Russian government rewards war crimes, whereas the Australian government investigates war crimes and carries out trials against when it comes to war crimes. And I want full investigation of any, any Western soldier responsible for war crimes, because unlike, you know, hypocrites like Jackson, I don't support war crimes. I mean, has Jackson, can Jackson call for war crimes investigations against Russian soldiers? He won't, he can't, he can't because he can't bite the head and that feeds him. Yeah, if any Russian soldiers are found guilty of committing war crimes, yeah, they should be investigated and held accountable. Simple. So the difference between, Okay, so, do you believe in, No, no, no, no, no, you just had your, you had, You do believe they should, You had your bit of commentary, You had your bit of commentary. That's nice. Okay, now I'm going to talk. So the difference between me and Drew is I'm not a fat idiot who thinks that NATO is an anti-imperialist force. Like, holy shit. How stupid do you have to be to honestly sit here? Look at me in the eyes and tell me that, like, Jin Stoltenberg is the face of anti-imperialism in the, No, not Jim Stoltenberg, it's Zelensky. Oh, yes. So the guy, so, so we'll just finish off on this point here. Now this brings me to an even better point. The guy who has cucked himself in his entire country to NATO, who you said is not the face of anti-imperialism, by the way, and has taken his country, sent hundreds of thousands of men to their death and a suicidal war being led by Nazis. Russia launched a war of aggression. He has imprisoned all dissidents. He has consolidated all media into one 24-7 state-controlled media apparatus in Ukraine. He has imprisoned and disappeared all dissident officials. Everything you say is Zelensky or guilty of is actually guilty of. That's a thing. He has disappeared and, you know, imprisoned all dissident political parties, almost not all of them, but pretty much all of them. And apparently now I'm supposed to believe that this guy, Zelensky, is the passion of freedom and democracy and anti-imperialism. Yes. Zelensky is the forefront. Zelensky is at the forefront of anti-imperialism globally. He's probably the most prominent anti-imperialist on the world today, because he's fighting against a Russian war of imperial conquest. He's fighting for his country's independence. So this is a decolonial war. It's a war of national independence for Ukraine. And, you know, all these, it's very hilarious, Jackson, because all the supposed crimes you allege that Zelensky is guilty of, you know, Putin actually is guilty of. So if you're talking about, you know, a completely destroyed media sphere in Russia, where there's absolutely no freedom of speech, there's no freedom of speech in Russia. You can't even call it a war. People who call it a war are arrested. You know, there was a little girl who was taken away from her parents and her dad was actually taken to prison simply because she criticized the war. So, you know, everything you accuse Zelensky of saying he's a dictator, well, Putin's actually guilty of it. And every single, and, you know, you say, oh, you know, Zelensky took these men to their deaths. No, it's Russia. It's Russia that took these innocent people to their deaths, because Russia is the one that is firing tanks. Russia is the one that is firing missiles. Russia is the one that sent tanks over the border. So you say, oh, no, the West tried to coup in Ukraine, tried to seize the government of Ukraine. But Russia has invaded with tanks and tried to seize the government of Ukraine and tried to launch a war of imperial conquest and tried to wipe Ukraine from the face of the map and you defended. So every single thing you accuse Zelensky of, it's completely fucking, it's baseless, it's lies, because you're accusing Zelensky of the crimes that the Russians are guilty of. I'm actually not. I'm accusing Zelensky of very unique crimes, like disappearing my good friend, Gonzalo Lira, putting me on a kill list. He deserved it, fucking deserved it. Okay, so how are you going to say that Putin is so bad for it when you're saying that Gonzalo Lira, quote unquote, deserved it? Gonzalo got fucking arrested. Gonzalo got arrested. So let me just finish my point. Let's let Jackson finish up. And you can say your piece there. I've been interrupted more in this debate than any debate I've ever participated in, and I still knocked you off the floor. I defeated you. Jackson, Jackson, you actually got very simple things wrong about Ukraine. So look at, no, oh my God, we're going to talk about getting things wrong, Drew. You didn't know the basic facts of anything. And look. You didn't know who you didn't know. I'm going to interrupt. I'm going to interrupt again. You don't know who Gorkin was. I'm going to interrupt here again. Stop interrupting. Because, you know, there's been a lot of interruptions from both of you during the debate. And that's fine. You know, that's part of the open discussion. You know, we got a bit of a delay, but let's let Jackson speak here for 30 seconds. They're Drew, and then we'll kick it over you for 15. I was literally talking about how much I got interrupted and he couldn't stop his fat mouth from interrupting me again. So anyways, the point. Let's be respectful, please. Yeah, it's not respectful, but he hasn't been respectful this entire debate. So anyways, the point is that Zelensky is a unique criminal and that he he is simultaneously getting fucked in the ass and fucking his entire country in the ass at the same time. It's like it's like what do you call that? Like one of the motorboat situations where like he's getting fucked, but he's also fucking everyone else. And imprisoning all these people, putting me on a kill list, putting lots of people. Putting you on a kill list. It's not a kill list, Jackson. It's not a kill list. So don't fucking don't wait, wait, wait. I'll pick up the last thing I say. Let's let him finish out 10 seconds. Last thing I say. Why then when they killed Daria Dugina and so many others who are all you deserve this stuff? Let me please. We're going to let Jackson speak for 10 seconds to finish out. You say Daria deserved it. You know, I wish no harm upon you ever in my life. But you know, everyone, I'm going to die someday. When I die, I'm going to go to heaven when you die. You're going to hell, Jackson. Not so much. So anyways, when people like Daria Dugina, who was on that list and many others who've been on that list, have actually been assassinated by Kiev authorities or SBU officials or officers. Why is it then that they put liquidated over the faces of those people who were killed by Ukrainian authorities on the list? Look, Daria was dealt with because she advocated genocide. She devoted her life to genocide. Her father devoted himself to genocide. The only sad thing is that Dugan wasn't in the car with her. So Daria was on the list and once she got killed, they put liquidated over her face on the list. And the United States has come out and said it was Ukraine who was behind the killing of her. So are you saying it is a kill list or it's not a kill list? No, it's not a kill list. They just kill the people on the kill list and then the kill list celebrates the killing of the people on the kill list by Ukraine. There are tens of thousands of people on that particular list, Jackson. You're not important enough to be on any Ukrainian kill list. We're only talking about people like Solovyov, Dugan, the people who are ultimately the most responsible for the war, people like Solovyov, Dugan, these are the people that helped put Russian tanks into Ukraine and so they deserve it. Dugan's never talked with Putin, so I don't really know what you're talking about there. Dugan advocated genocide. His own quote, the Ukrainians are a race of sewer dwellers and they deserve, they must be genocided. This is his quote and he also said that the only solution is to kill, kill, kill Ukrainians. That's his quote. So I'm not going to expend tears when Dugan dies. I think Dugan should be at the top of the Ukrainian military target list. So I can't confirm that Dugan has said that or who he was talking about. Let's say hypothetically, he did say that and he has never met Putin, he's never talked to Putin. So how is it that because one guy who is, he's not even that influential in Russia, if you talk to any Russian, they'll tell you that he's- No, he's very influential. The top, we're talking about the top again, it's the top five or six probably. If you're going to just, you can't just keep interrupting. I will just mute you and talk over you to my own audience, which is where the vast majority of people are listening right now. But you bring up this point about Dugan. So Dugan's not even that influential within Russia. He's much more influential within the West and the people who soy out over his comments, which in many cases are base. Can't say I agree with everything he's said and- You agree with the Jennifer Ukrainian poll? Okay, well, I'm just going to mute you now because you can, I'll unmute you when I'm done. So he's someone who's like, I guess you're saying is very influential. It wasn't even him who was killed. It was his daughter who was killed, assassinated. She was 29 years old. She was like, no one even really knew who she was. She's like a, I guess, journalist or commentator. And her life was taken because your country that you profess to say is the home of democracy and anti-imperialism massacred her in a car bombing. Massacred her? Jackson. Even Biden admits that. She was a Russian state television propagandist. She visited occupied areas. She helped to mobilize support for the war. The top couple Russian propagandists inside Russia who mobilized support for the war, they're legitimate military targets. Daria deserved it. The only sad thing is that Dugan wasn't in the car with her. Obviously it was a mistake because they wanted Dugan mainly rather than her. It's sad that he wasn't in the car himself. So if Russia targeted a Ukrainian TV personality, would that be justified? No, because Russia's the invading party. Russia's the party of aggression. Russia's the one that's invading a sovereign country. So that wouldn't be justified. Well, you have no, the only qualms you seem to have today was over Russia's killing of civilians, but you just justified the killing of a civilian with no military. Daria and the top Russian propagandists. Daria was not a governmental official. She was not a... She practically was. Let's let him finish, please. What do you mean she practically was? Because Russian state television is part of the regime propaganda apparatus. Okay, so I've had probably three appearances, maybe four on Russian state TV. So do you want to see me get killed? No, Jackson, for the sake of the discussion. Oh, but you just made that argument for Daria Dugina. So shut the fuck up. So she's not a governmental official. She made herself embattled when she went to Russia. She's not a governmental official. She was a civilian. 15 seconds, Jackson. Not a governmental official and not a military official. And she was killed by the terrorist Nazi dogs in Ukraine that you profess to support as the bastion of democracy. Daria went to Russian occupied territories. She and her father were instrumental in pushing for genocide against Ukraine. After World War II, the editor of Der Sturma, one of the top Nazi propagandists, was put to death as part of the Nuremberg trials. So top regime propaganda. How is Daria and how is Daria... ...the regime a legitimate military target? So last question. How is Daria influential in Putin taking the decision to launch the SMO? How is Daria specifically responsible? She's been pushing for it for... She and her father have been pushing for it for years. But look, as I said, though, Daria wasn't the main target. It's sad that they didn't get her father. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck just happened. Oh, we seem to have lost Drew. It's not on my end. We'll give him a second there. But if not, then we'll just continue on now with the... You know, I really definitely hope the FSB didn't pay him a visit. No, Doug's were having a thought, sad. Oh, sorry to hear that. I know all about that. So yeah, let's continue on. We got lots of other questions here. And like I said, to me, it sounds like you guys got lots that you can go down. That is actually, like I said, relevant to what we're talking about. I know you guys, you got a lot of fire towards each other now after the discussion that you had, but it does seem like we're still getting some good juicy discussion out of these super chats. So if you guys are good to keep going... I was just going to say Gonzalo Lira, this fat man who basically made a living trying to encourage men to rape women as part of his creepy dating simulator games. I mean, he was arrested legitimately because he was pushing for the Russian invasion of Ukraine while living in Ukraine. So, for example, during World War II, people who advocated the invasion of the United States were arrested. That's very legitimate. As if he would not have been arrested in Russia if he was advocating for Ukraine in the same manner. No, I'm sorry. I'm just going to ask that you don't interrupt me while I'm doing some of the housekeeping here. So I am going to remind everybody that we're still doing our Q&A and I just wanted to let you guys know, once again, if there's anything you wanted to grab, whether the docks are fighting or if you want to grab a drink of water, use the restroom. That's fine and we'll continue on if you guys are still good to go. I know we've gone a little over time from what we consented to. So, Jackson, are you still good? Yeah, I'm good. I think it's funny that Drew called Gonzalo fat. I mean, just look in the mirror, Drew. Okay, well, let's... Are you still bulking? Are you still bulking? Let me continue my housekeeping. It's okay, Jackson. It's okay. That's all yeah. Andrew, you still bulking? Andrew, you are still good to continue? I am. I am. I'll go for a bit more. I'll go for a bit more. Thank you, guys. And thank you to our live chat. It's important that we make sure that we are respecting our speaker's time. You know, they're here having this discussion on their own time. So we want to make sure that we're being respectful in our live chat and trying to engage with our subject here tonight, which is, is the Russia war in Ukraine justified? So we had an interesting question here. Let me just continue on. I actually had to go into my old copy and pastes here. So sunflower, I missed your question earlier, but thanks for your question there and being a member here for over a year. Sorry for missing that again. So they'd asked a question here. Ignoring any war crimes is a mere act of war. By Russia, is that justified? So ignoring any war crimes is a mere act of war. What do you guys think about that? Ignoring war crimes is a mere act of war. If ignoring war crimes is a mere act of war, then the United States and Britain are sure guilty of a lot of war aggravations against the Soviet Union during the Nuremberg trials. Any thoughts from you there, Drew? Sorry, can you repeat that? Well, they had to reiterate because I did have to go back here and ask them what their question was. So they had said something along the lines of ignoring any war crimes is the mere act of war by Russia justified. Ignoring the war crimes is a mere act of war. Well, look, even the invasion of Ukraine is a war crime because it is technically against international law, a war of aggression. That would make sense if any country, any power in the West had, I guess, adhered to the UN Charter or international law anytime since Putin took power. I guess that would make sense then. Well, for what it's worth, the American invasion of Ukraine, of the American invasion of Iraq, sorry, was also completely illegitimate and not justified. So I do not believe in the invasion of sovereign country. All right, I'm sorry to cut you off there. So our Super Chatter did clarify in our live chat here from Sunflower. And I'm sorry if I'm butchering your question here. They said, I'm asking, ignoring any war crimes by Russia after the fact was the mere declaration of war by Russia justifiable. So I think we might get justified. Justify US participation in a war. Is that what they're saying? I think they're just asking in general, like, you know, if that can be if that can be something that's justified based on that they're saying, they're saying putting aside the atrocities and war crimes is Russia's decision to invade Ukraine justified. That's that's the question, isn't it? I can say that is a good summation of it. I just, yeah, it's written out a little strange. Sorry about that, Sunflower, but I think we've got it. So I'll let you expand on that, Jackson. No, I mean, you shouldn't ignore war crimes, but the fact the matter is Russia did not start the war crimes here. The party who started war crimes was Ukraine and slaughtering all the civilians in the Donbass over the past eight years. People say the war started February 24th. No, not really. The war started back in 2014. And it was tipped off not with a war crime, but with an illegal seizure of power with the coup in 2014. All right. Any other thoughts there from either of you or shall we move on? Well, no, because Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and kidnapped and killed Ukrainian civilians who protested against the annexation in the occupied areas. And it was a war of aggression from 2014 onwards on Russia's part. All right. I feel like we've expounded on that. So let's continue on and thank you again, Sunflower. I'm glad that we got your question. Oh, excuse me. All figured out there. So let's continue on with our super chats. So George D. for five dollars. Jackson, can you Google civilian deaths in Ukraine live right now and read it out loud with the source so Drew can learn something? Did you want to bring up a screen share with the search? No, I don't even have to Google it because he can look on he can look on the Euromaidan press, which I don't think he's going to claim is a is a pro Russian source. And they I believe most recently, it was like in January or February, they claimed that there was about 8500 something civilians who had been killed, which I even think that's a bit low. But that's from Euromaidan press, which is no way she performed pro Russian. They're Western. They're backed by Western governments. And that's not great at math, but that I'm pretty sure is less than the vast majority of the 15,000 who were killed in the Donbas the years prior to the Russian invasion in February of last year. No, no, no, because basically what's happening is they're only verifying, you know, people who we can confirm with photo evidence have been killed. So, for example, in occupied areas where they can't confirm the death count, they're obviously not counting that. So we don't know, for example, just how many people were killed at very full. So no, for the sake of our super chatter, like, for example, just, just, just to be fair, the bombing of the city drama theater. What was the death count there, Jackson? Well, I'm going to do for a super chatter and hold on to that point, Drew. I'm just going to let you all know, just for our live chat, because I did check it out right quick. I went over and I don't know if anybody thinks this is reputable, but United Nations, United Nations Human Rights, it's OHCR.org. I looked it up right quick for a super chatter just to respect what they had asked there for us to look it up. It says right here, according to this source, that there's been 19,324 civilian casualties. So I'll let you guys expand, expand a little bit on the, on what I, what I've uncovered here, whether you think the source is reputable and what you think that number means. So, Drew, I'll let you kick it back into your question, but just for the sake of our super chatter, I did want to make sure that we respected their, their ask and look that up. So that's for you. And we'll kick it back over to you, Drew. Well, just for example, in places that saw the worst fighting, for example, Backmord or Marriorpool, we don't know the full civilian death count. And so I'm asking Jackson, you know, for example, with just, just as one example, take the example of the city drama theater bombing, where there were hundreds of civilians that were, were bombed, what was the death count there? You don't know. So we do know actually roughly how many have been killed, because Russia and Ukraine, both have to report numbers for this. And there are oftentimes international observers on site who get to at least see. There weren't international observers in Marriorpool. Red Cross? I mean, people weren't able to get into occupied Marriorpool. Red Cross. They're not able to count civilian deaths. Like, So what were they there doing? Red Cross, even Red Cross's operations were severely restricted by Russia. So, for example, what were they doing? There were big efforts by Red Cross, for example, to try and evacuate some of the occupied, some of the Ukrainian soldiers and, you know, Russia. Soldiers? Soldiers? No, no. No. Yes, soldiers. None of them were, Red Cross didn't evacuate a single Ukrainian soldier. But they were, they were, they were advocating for a deal to be struck. And this was ignored by Russia. So why did you say that they played a big role in evacuating Ukrainian soldiers when you and I both, no, don't interrupt me. Don't interrupt me. Don't interrupt me. You and I both, no, stop interrupting me. Let's let him finish up 15 seconds. You and I both know that Red Cross went in. The deal was for Red Cross to go in, evacuate civilians that were being held by Ukrainians and the Azov, Azov, you know, Sea of Work Factory bunker. And then also to get any civilians who had been killed out of there so they could give the families or whoever the bodies and give them a proper burial. So no, they didn't. In fact, the individuals who were down there, that Red Cross did in fact come into contact with who were Ukrainian soldiers were all captured by Russia and they were strip searched. And Russia actually filmed all of their Nazi Hitler tattoos one by one. Red Cross wanted to have a, wanted to strike a deal with Russia to evacuate some of the soldiers. This was ignored. Let's actually see Red Cross's quotations. I mean, Red Cross itself said the situation in Maripole is apocalyptic. He called for a ceasefire. This was completely ignored. The Red Cross tried to create civilian evacuation corridors. Russia bombed the civilian evacuation corridor. So we don't know the full total of the number of people who were killed by Russia in Maripole. Red Cross said, you know, Red Cross denounced the apocalyptic destruction in Maripole. Yeah, apocalyptic destruction of a city that had been evacuated and there were civilians there. City officials reported. I mean, city officials I literally can't do this. 20,000 people interrupt me every few seconds. I'm going to give you one more chance. It is literally impossible to debate you if you are going to interrupt me every time I speak. Okay, Drew. So be a good boy and keep your mouth shut. Okay, I'm going to fuck up Jackson. Come on. Let's fucking let's not. We are moving away from our discussion. Let me finish my point. 15 seconds. You made the claim that Ukrainian soldiers were being evacuated by Red Cross. No, I countered that claim. And that claim is just that claim. That claim that claim is just as false as the claim that the laughable, insanely shameful and laughable claim that 50,000 civilians were killed in Mariupol. Do you know how insane of a comment that is? Back to you, Drew. It's not. It's not. Firstly, I didn't claim that Red Cross evacuated Ukrainian soldiers. I said they wanted to do a deal for that. No, that's not what you said. Let him speak, Jackson. No, that is what I said. Red Cross wanted to do a deal for the evacuation of soldiers and this was ignored by Russia. There was Russian bombing of the civilian evacuation corridors. This is a confirmed fact. And we don't know the full death toll in Mariupol. We know that by April, the estimate was 25,000 civilians. This was the mayor and this was the Ukrainian authorities saying tens of thousands. There were discoveries of 10,000 new mass graves. This is satellite figures. Associated Press said death toll may be up to three times that figure. So we can't know the full number, but we know it was tens of thousands of people. And Russia was bombing the evacuation checkpoints. Russia bombed the Mariupol maternity hospital. Russia bombed the children's hospital. It was completely apocalyptic what Russia was doing. Can you explain Jackson? Can you explain to us why Russia bombed the maternity hospital and the children's hospital in Mariupol? 100% because the Ukrainian fighters had taken over these buildings as Amnesty International cited and noted in their report. And they were using these civilians into buildings as human shields as well as an ease of stall. And yeah, they were firing. They created de facto military targets on civilian infrastructure. The Ukrainian military is so stupid. They even put out footage and photography of Ukrainian soldiers staging military bases inside of school genasiums inside of Mariupol. So yeah, this is a very well documented fact. And so do you trust the credibility of Amnesty International considering you keep on citing them? No, I trust the credibility of photography. Because Amnesty International, June 30, 2022. Wait, wait, shut the fuck up. Let's let Jackson finish this point there. Shut the fuck up. Let's let the fuck up. You asked a question there, Drew, so we'll let Jackson finish up. I trust the veracity of the photos and videos of Ukrainian soldiers fighting from otherwise civilian zones, as you would put it, that they had turned into de facto military targets. Russia was attacking civilian targets. This is why it was a war, basically, of extermination in Mariupol. Russia was targeting civilian targets from the start. They attacked the maternity hospital. They attacked the children's hospital. They bombed the theater. There were hundreds of civilians holed up in there. As I said earlier, they scrawled in Russian on the pavement outside. Children present. Russian fighter jets bombed the Mariupol theater. Hundreds were killed. This is a confirmed war crime. There is photo evidence of the destruction of the theater and we have proof that there were hundreds of civilians inside the theater when it was bombed. So you can't justify that. You can't explain that, Jackson. You have no answer for that because it is absolutely indefensible. I can answer that and I can defend that because as with the A's of Stoll-Stewart's bunker, that was a just military target because there was hundreds, if not... Actually, I think there was... The Mariupol theater was a just military... True, we're giving him 30 seconds here. If you could please try not to interrupt here because I don't want to have to keep placing you on the mute there and then having to unmute you. So we'll just let Jackson finish up his point here for 15 seconds. Yes. The reason why, and I'm going to take a little longer than 15 seconds because he just went on and on and on, the reason why these zones or these buildings are considered military targets is because Amnesty International and the Ukrainian military have both admitted to the fact that they've turned these buildings into military targets. We have tons of proof of that from genasiums to hospitals to the A's of Stoll-Stewart's plant which is where the battle finished. And oh, lo and behold, that's a civilian target but there was thousands of Ukrainian soldiers fighting from within the insides of the A's of Stoll-Stewart's bunker. So you'd probably call that a civilian target. My response is if that's a civilian zone, why on earth are Ukrainian soldiers fighting from outside of the, from inside of the civilian zone? You have no justification. You say that the Mariupol Theater was a military target. That is crazy. There are hundreds of civilians inside. There were not, Ukrainian forces were not present there. This is a complete lie. You're justifying war crimes against civilians. It is very obvious from the very side of the conflict that Russia was targeting civilian zones. And that is why Putin and all the top Russian propagandists were crowing about how they were going to freeze Ukraine into submission. They're targeting civilian infrastructure. They're targeting civilian infrastructure from the start of the invasion. They're trying to freeze Ukraine, trying to starve Ukraine into hunger and submission. So it's very obvious from the very start, Russia has targeted civilian areas because they want to, they're copying the same strategies that they used in Grozny and Aleppo. They want to basically make the city unlivable. They want to make the entire country unlivable for civilians so that the whole regime, so that everything, so that the regime can come in and seize all the land. This is what they want. They want to, I mean, they want to make life unbearable for civilians. And this is genocide because by calculating, by creating the conditions whereby life is impossible for civilians, that is genocide. That is actually under the genocide convention. And I gave you an example where 500 Ukrainians were killed at the Mariupol Theater and you would just say, it was a military target. It's a military target. And that's fucking sick. All right, over to you, Jackson. He's called you out there. So let's, we'll kick it over to you for another minute there. I mean, I don't have anything to say. I've made my point over and over. When you have a military that's turning active civilian zones into military targets, that is first of all illegal. They are using the civilians as human shields. Amnesty International approved that and Ukrainian military release photographs and video prove that. So I don't know. It's very hard breaking through with someone who is, who has engulfed themselves in so much propaganda. There's all this propaganda smoke. They can't even see the light of day because they've been, they've just ingested so much of this BS. It's actually very sad. It's a problem we see in a lot of, you know, disgenic Western propagandists today, especially amongst Gen Z. I happen to be one of the only base ones that has broken through this. But, you know, I hope one day Drew gets a gym membership and sees the light. All right. Let's continue on from there. So threat to democracy. Thanks for being in our live chat again for 999. Drew, are you aware of the Brenton, Brereton? I don't think they spelled that. Yeah, the Brereton report. That's the Afghan difference. Okay. Sorry about that. And the murder, rape, and torture of innocent civilians by your pathetic military in a country they had no business in. Are you a report and election denier? Firstly, I don't believe the Brereton report contains rape allegations. I read the report and I called for investigations and trials of any Australian service member that was guilty of war crimes. So unlike Jackson and unlike the Russians who, you know, will never try their own people for war crimes, never. I'm against war crimes. If Australian forces carry out war crimes, then I'll call it out and I'll call for trials and I'll call for prosecutions because yeah, I don't support war crimes. It's very simple. The point that Australia had no business in Afghanistan. Look, 911 was launched from Afghanistan by the Al Qaeda forces that were loyal to the Taliban. So there was justification originally for the intervention in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, it lost its way and Bush went into Iraq, which was a total disaster and the wrong thing to do. So that was really wrong. But I am against Australian war crimes in Afghanistan. I called for prosecutions and trials because I'm not a hypocrite like Jackson. I'll never call for, I'll never defend war crimes. I'm not going to say, oh, those are justified military targets when we're talking about the bombing of hundreds of civilians in drama theaters in Mariupol. You support the number one war criminal in the face of the planet today. You support the ISIS of Europe. You support the Osama bin Laden of Europe. You literally don't know. You're talking about Putin, right? No. The ISIS of Europe, the number one war criminal. That would be Woldemir Zelensky and his Aesovite soldiers. You might have been right that it is one Woldemir. It's Woldemir Putin. There's one man responsible for more war crimes and more civilian death over the past 50 years. Then anyone else in Europe, I'd have to say, it is Woldemir Zelensky. That is complete fantasy. Jackson, you are living in an alternative reality in an alternative universe. It's really sad. You're living inside a simulation. The matrix has completely got you. Bro, you live in a... You live inside of Australia. The whole country is a simulation at this point. Again, no one... Very funny. Very funny. No one would notice in Australia. Jackson, you talk about mainstream media propaganda. You just... Mainstream media propaganda. You buy Russian propaganda every single time. They broadcast CNN in Australia. Do they broadcast CNN down there? I don't watch CNN. I don't watch CNN. Let's move on, guys, because we've lost sight of our substance here. And that happens, and that's fine. Like I said, it's going to get juicy. I've got based beautiful sausage dogs. Please don't interrupt. I'm so sorry. We have this sad apartment in LA with a fucking mail... It's true, but it's not. It's not online. It all sucks. All right. We're going to keep going with the super chats and keep it on subject, because like I said, we want to be able to keep this on point. That's baby Hitler. And if I have to mute you, I will, and we're not going to do any more mud slinging. We got a lot of super chats. There's a lot of people that want to hear from you. So like I said, I don't want to indiscriminately kick one of you out of the Zoom for not following the rules. You know, I'm pretty chill as far as trying to keep the conversation going. But yeah, let's not keep pushing the buttons here. I got two kids. I know how to do it. My name is Jeffrey, $5. To Drew. Did I already read this one? Yes. Sorry. My name is Jeffrey, $5. Thanks, Jeffrey. To Drew, what is your response to amnesty? And I did read that one. I'm sorry. See, you guys got me all messed up here. That's... I'm going to blame you guys for squabbling. No, I'm kidding. You know, I enjoy it. You guys are having fun. Let's see here. Suppose defensive alliance. I did not read that one. Sorry. So I had to read through. Counselor guy, $5. Suppose defensive alliance involved in Libya and Syria. Russia has every right to not want NATO at their front door. NATO is an agent of Canada. I think we did that one. We did that one too. I got to delete some of these. All right. No worries. Sorry, guys. Two seconds. That's what I get for trying to go back and find super chats from people that are like, are you going to read my super chat? And I'm like, I'm sorry. Maybe I missed that. I have a question for Drew. Let's all right. Let's let's go for it. Well, I get myself. All right. Yeah. Well, you figure that out. I have it. How do you feel about how do you feel about all the accusations on Twitter and discord that you've been fucking your dogs? Very funny. Very fucking funny. No, I'm serious. So stupid. All right. That's not a valid question. My poor dog had a fight. My poor dog's had a fight earlier in the chat. No, I know you've been having difficulties with women. I know you've been. I'm very sorry that you don't have any. So we don't have any. We got if I look after the dogs it may have a question for the answer. Very sad. Let's try not to break any rules here. So we can keep going on here. And yeah, I'm glad I'm talking over you because I can hear you. Threat to democracy for 99. How does Drew feel about the Nazis in Ukraine who are proud Nazis who swear to cleanse Ukraine of Russian speaking and Russian born citizens? Any thoughts there on that one? Every single country has a far right medicine prisons. Every single country Australia has it. America has it. Every single country on earth Russia has it. Russia has probably more neo-Nazis than Ukraine. So for example, like the founder, one of the founders of Wagner has SS tattoos on his collar bones. So, you know, Russia has a massive neo-Nazi problem itself. Every country, unfortunately, has these far right elements. And, you know, thankfully in Ukraine, they're very marginalized. They didn't even get two percent of the vote at the recent parliamentary elections. They didn't even get into the parliament. They're very marginalized. You compare that to say America where the far right is, you know, big chunk of Congress. You compare that to Russia where the far right is in power with Putin and even one of the founders of Wagner has SS tattoos on his collar bones. It's very sad. Yeah, I'll respond to that you know, these Nazis were in power from 2014 to 2019 for the most part and they still exert the power of the bullets upon Zelensky's head, even though they're just mainly been held holding these military ranks now. But I thank Putin for going in and helping the people of the Donbass, the ethnic Russians who are being slaughtered by these Nazis. And I also Russia's going in. Well, I'm not done. I'm not done. Jackson finished up. 15 seconds, buddy. Yeah, please let me finish. It will be quick. I want everyone to comment in the chat now. Hashtag save Drew's dog because I hope that just like Putin saved the people from the Nazis in the Donbass. Someone saves Drew's dog because that dog, we don't really know what's happening. I hear these theories but you know, we should all want to save Drew's dog. That's terribly not on topic. So we'll continue on and see if we can get something more out of here. So Oh, don't kind of spy. I'm trying to protect them. So threat to the other dogs fall with me. We got a lot of super chats here. We want to respect our audience. So threat to democracy 499 drew. You don't have to answer this. He asked are you over 18 and have you attended higher education after junior higher high school? Curious as to where you learned his communication skills. So you can comment on that or we can just skip it because it's somewhat a little on the edge there. Genius. I'm 24 years old. I graduated with Oh, look, I graduated high school with brilliant marks. I was in the top 5% of the graduating cohort in Queensland. And I I have almost finished my university. I have almost perfect grade 7 point average. So which is higher distinction. So I've been invited to speak at Oxford University. So I'm very, very proud of my education background. All right. Excellent. And where we're getting that question there, we'll just ask where can everybody find you fellas just before I go to the next super chat? You know, we got some links in the description, of course, and if we don't, we'll have them shortly. But if you guys want to tell everybody where they can find you guys in the future. Well, if they want to, they can find me on Twitter, Drew Pavley. And I'm on Instagram and YouTube and all these sorts of different platforms just under Drew Pavley. All right. And you, Jackson? At Jackson Hinkle everywhere. I know everyone's probably going to want to follow along. So I'm on Twitter, Rumble, YouTube, and that's about it. All right. I just got to undo the screen change that I did for you there. All right. I got your face back in there. All right. Let's continue on with our super chats. So Goran, $20 is Wait. No one wanted to ask me where my college experience was. I mean, if you want to expose, I mean, it's not really related and we should try to keep it quick. But for sure, if you want to give us 15 seconds and describe, are you over 18 and did you attend a higher education? Sure. If you want to answer that, you go for it. Yeah. 15 seconds. I'll answer that. So I was not indoctrinated at a liberal propaganda university like Drew Pavley. And I did not subject myself to Nazi propaganda, Hitlerite propaganda. I did not go to college. I'm a self-made man. I'm not live and haven't lived at my parents' house since I was 17 unlike Drew who's still at his parents' house. And Drew, did you just make sure your mom's doing okay? Okay. So yeah, I am a self-made man. I'm very proud of that. All right. Well, we'll continue on. Threat to democracy again. Oh, no, not you again yet. We're going to get there. Goron for $20. Ask. Ask guy. I don't know who the ask guy. Maybe it's me, you know. You don't know what I got. All right. Ask ask guy if he ever. Who is ask guy? I just don't know who they're referring to. Let's continue on. If he ever been to Bosnia because his facts about what happened are not even close to what happened there. I lived there for four years during the war. I hope he didn't just watch CNN, BBC, and so on. So I think that's for you, their drill. The Serbs were very open about wanting genocide against the Bosnians. We all know their famous infamous songs of the era removed Kabab all those stupid references. So they were very open about their genocidal intentions in Bosnia. And there's a lot of evidence about their genocide. All right. Let's continue on there. Threat to democracy. We're back again. Threat to democracy. Thanks so much for being here. $4.99. How does Drew feel about the... That one I must copy and paste twice or you said it again. Light of the twin lamps for $20. Question for Jackson. You support ethnicity driven secession for eastern Ukraine by Russians? Would you support parts of the American Southwest that a majority ethnic Mexican to secede or join Mexico? I guess if the American government was systematically slaughtering ethnic Mexicans and saying that they couldn't speak Spanish in the United States and was taking a whole host of other punitive measures against them, then yeah, I would support the secession of Mexicans into Mexico, but that's not the case. And in fact, I don't support ethno-states. That's why Israel's not a real country. And I believe that I believe that America's gonna not only maintain its current borders, but my grand vision and actually the grand vision of the founding fathers is to liberate Canada. So I think in some time in my lifetime, you will see the liberation of all of Canada. All right. Well, I'm in Canada. So here I am. All right. Anyways, let's continue on. Let me just get my screens figured out back there again because you guys moving around a little bit there. That's not fun. All right. There we go. We're all sorted out. And Jackson from Otter $5. Why do you refuse to call this a war? Please elaborate and explain how it is not a war. And also why do you associate with Scott Ritter? I'm not sure who that is. So we'll try to focus on the main part, which I think is why do you refuse to call this a war? Please elaborate and explain how it's not a war. Um, you know, like colloquially, colloquially, whatever the fucking word is, I do call it a war. I say Ukraine war all the time. I say to my YouTube headlines, I say it all the time, but, um, it is, uh, technically, as they call it, Russia calls it a special military operation, but just for sake of keeping things short, I usually just say war rather than special military operation. But in technical terms, like if I was interviewing a Russian politician or any politician for that matter, US politician, I would say special military operation, because if Ukraine or, uh, United States thinks that this is what wartime mobilization looks like in Russia, they are sorely mistaken. Okay. I mean, just to wrap up the statement here, the Russians, um, I mean, they put forward a good chunk of men, but they don't, they haven't mobilized their entire economy. A lot of these men are back, uh, you know, the reservists not on the front. Um, they have extremely high turnover on the front, uh, like most Russian fighters don't spend more than a day on the front, with the exception of the fighting we saw in Bakhmutsk, which took the headlines the past few weeks when Russia liberated it. And, um, you know, you ask, what does a Russian war look like? A Russian war looks like, 27 million people dying for the cause of, you know, maintaining the Russian sovereignty and Russian culture, and they are dead serious when it comes to defending their land, their territory, their people. And this is in no way, shape or form, anything close to a wartime mobilization. All right. Um, any thoughts over there, Drew, or do you want to continue on? Just, I mean, it's a joke to pretend that Russia hasn't basically been waging total war. They are going deep into their post-World War II military stockpiles. For example, they're bringing tanks out of storage that were used in the 60s and 70s. And so, you know, this has been a war of total mobilization for Russia and they've lost. They haven't been able to take Kiev. They won't be able to take the entire country. They will continue, unfortunately, they will continue to try to slaughter Ukrainian civilians. But ultimately, their attempt to conquer Ukraine has failed. And you can just look at Bakhmut. You know, they took Bakhmut, but even listen to Gerkin, he says to him, his own telegram, he calls it a self-extermination epit by Wagner and the Russian military. You know, these are the guys who literally started the war in the Donbas and they're saying, this is insane. This is so incompetent. Everybody knows that it is, yeah, it is a crazy, crazy military. I mean, everyone knows this is a crazy thing for Putin to do, for Russia to do. It's an insane war. There are no, there have been no victories for them and it's a collapse. They're collapsing now. All right. Let's continue on from there. Scroll back up here. All right, to Jackson. This is from, my name is Jeffrey. Are yukes justified in being displeased with the Russian involvement in their country since its inception? Isn't it fairly reasonable as to why yukes want closer ties to the EU after two decades of corruption? So two decades of corruption is what they said there. So I'll let you expound on that there. Can you reread the first part of that question? Are yukes justified? So are Ukrainians justified in being displeased with the Russian involvement in their country since its inception? Yes, of course. And that's how the Euro-Maid Don protests began. It began as not co-opted movement. People who are maybe ill informed, they're overhyped everything. They say like, oh, you know, the Euro-Maid Don coup was a, it was a U.S. plot from its inception. That's actually wrong. Euro-Maid Don started off with noble intentions. Intentions I disagree with, I guess, but noble in the sense that it was not a CIA plot from the very beginning. And those were examples of people who actually had discontent with Russia speaking broadly. They didn't like Yanukovych. They wanted to join the EU. And you have to remember, though, that there's a lot of people in Ukraine who also oppose the EU. That's why Yanukovych was democratically elected and they had to force them out to appoint someone who was pro-EU, which was Petropor Shenko. They couldn't get it done through a vote because there weren't enough pro-EU voices within Ukraine. So they had to install him through a violent coup. All right. Let's continue on. Let's go back up here. So my name is Jeffrey for $20 again. Yeah. That's the same question. Yeah. Sorry. I copied and pasted his question because he'd sent in another two super chats. So thanks for that other $10 there, Jeffrey. That's appreciated. No pay. I'm not sure if that's how they want it done. Five euros, switch positions, and explain without emotional appeal what kind of evidence would it take to convince you to change your mind for science? So if you were in each other's shoes, what would be the thing that would change your mind and make you think that? Well, the otherwise. So I guess I'll just ask it individually here for the super chatter. Jackson, if you thought the war was unjustified, what would be the thing that you would say that makes it justified? What would be that one thing that you would say that put me over? I mean, well, isn't that kind of what we just I just spent the whole time talking about? I think a more interesting argument would be if I was in Drew, what would what would prompt me to take Drew's position at this point? I think the way they phrased it, that might be what they want. But it seems like they're kind of looking for like that opposite approach. But I do agree with you that I think it would be a little more interesting to say like what would convince you Jackson? Okay, well, yeah, my answer my answer to their question would be everything I guess I said throughout the entirety of this debate because that is all the proof and that's as much as I can do to argue. So I mean, like that is, right? That's what it's asking. As for what would convince me to flip in Drew's position? I don't know if I could ever flip in Drew's position, but something that would make me say I don't support Russia anymore and their military operation is if they decided that they were going to roguely start attacking civilians. That would be something if they disproportionately decided to escalate the war, that's something. Those are two big ones. Okay. And what about you, Drew? So I think we'll keep on theme with that. What would change your mind at this point? If you found out, what like is there a piece of information that you can think of that you'd be like, okay, the war in Russia is justified. What would be something that you would turn your table kind of deal? Look, if Ukraine had launched an invasion of Russia in 2022, that brutally targeted civilians that was, you know, a war of imperial conquest. It was it was based on the magical thinking that there was no such thing as a Russian nation and that all Russians must be subordinate to the Ukrainians, then I would not support Ukraine. So you would have to basically flap, you'd basically have to flip the entire scenarios from Russia being the aggressor and Ukraine being the defender to Ukraine being the aggressor and Russia being the defender. That would be the one thing that would change your mind, but that's not happening because Russia is ultimately the one that launched the war of aggression and imperial conquest. All right. Let's try to continue on from there. So that was a no pay we got from that. Harald Harald Shucklebond $5. Can you just Google his opinion already, Jackson? He has a mainstream media source for you to explain. So we can move on from there, but I think they're calling you out a little bit drew and talking to Jackson. I think they're calling you out for using mainstream talking points. So you guys can elaborate on that if you'd like, or we can just move on because it's not super, you know, we kind of hammered I think those ideas, but it's up to you guys. Um, I don't know. Like I feel like we've covered a lot of ground already regarding that. Like we've done like three hours worth of discussion. I think we've covered where we think our arguments are coming from. So I'm sorry if we don't get into too much elaboration, but we do have a lot of super chats that have a bit more to them. So we're just going to continue. Question for you though that's a little off the wall. Why you got a go boss for $5 says drew would you consider a debate with the guy from the Durran? Maybe from where? Sorry. From the Durran. It's called the Durran. I'm not sure. It says maybe it could be set up. That might be somebody to look into. So if you don't know who it is, you know, we'll check it out and spell it. I don't know. Look, I don't know who they're referring to right now. So I have no idea either. So let's continue on and keep it on on point, but we'll check that out later. Thanks for the suggestion there. You go boss and your five dollars in the super chat there threat to democracy. Now you need to stop popping up here. My copy and paste list H&L 999 drew your moral crusade for Ukraine children will not denuclearize Russia free trade and expanding pacifying Western culture over people surrender nukes South Africa. And this is don't kill me. I'm not sure if that's so sorry. What was so I think the overall thing here is your moral crusade for Ukraine children will not denuclearize Russia free trade and expand defying. So they're saying that free free trade and expanding pacifying Western culture will. So I'm not okay. I really know like I mean not really sure necessarily what they're trying to get at like I don't think countries changed through trade pretty much Russia and China basically demonstrated the fallacy of that idea. Let's continue one. Now there's a new one. My name is Jeffrey. $10 JP. Does the West similarly enslave country through predatory IMF loans. Doesn't the West support the Islamist known for human rights abuses in Syria as admitted by the U.S. DoD concern you. Over to you there Jackson. You know what I do. So what was the question again we've been going on for so long. I understand it's getting something about the IMF. The IMF enslave everybody. So here's the point I'll make about the IMF. The reason why drew is such a cuck to the West is because the West will go to any extent imaginable to try and preserve the dollar and preserve their hold on not only resource production but you know making sure that they have appropriate buyers. And this war in Ukraine there's a lot of reasons for it but the main reason for this the main reason for the coup the main reason for the Western effort to depose Putin is that they are worried that Russia is sovereign they are worried that Russia and China are sovereign they're working together they're building bricks they're going to replace the dollar global reserve currency they're worried that Russia is one of the largest commodity holding nations and commodities producing nations in the world and that they had a pretty good relationship with Europe prior to this war beginning and they're worried that at the end of the day Russia and China might be able to overpower Western hegemonic forces in terms of you know purchasing power GDP their international relations and that is also now happening because well bricks already surpasses the EU and there's 30 countries 30 plus countries applying to join bricks and that is without a doubt going to surpass the economic holds that the West has held for so many years upon the rest of the world and a chokehold and that's why this is all happening I mean it does have to do with economics it has to do with the Malthusian economic agenda that is pushed by so many in the West it's age old fight of should we produce more and grow more whether it was communism whether it's whatever we have in Russia today or the communism of China versus the Western degrowth Malthusian agenda of degrowth and depopulation all right let's try to do one and from my name is Jeffrey again for ten dollars thanks again Jeffrey JP isn't there a hypocrisy in claiming NATO slash EU stands for anti-IMP or anti-imp while they are supporting I'm going to I'm going to butcher this while they are supporting Azerbaijan and it's ethnic cleansing of Aramanians and ArtSec via cutting supply from entering the region excuse me if I butchered that but I hope that all makes sense isn't there a hypocrisy in claiming NATO slash EU stands for anti-IMP while they are supporting Azerbaijan and it's ethnic cleansing Aramanians and the actually I actually am very angry about the EU supporting Azerbaijan Azerbaijan is waging pretty open ethnic cleansing genocidal warfare against the Armenians I very much oppose the EU gas deals with Azerbaijan that's a horrible thing that they're doing all right any thoughts there Jackson where that was for you or do you want to continue on from there that might be a moment of agreement yeah if there's any number of countries you could point to the former Yugoslavia Libya I think are the ones that most people point to all right let's continue on Otter for five dollars actually yeah let's see here Otter quotations I think we should kill kill kill Ukrainians there can't be any other talk Dugin said in one video addressed to his followers at the time in August 21st 2022 symbol Google search so do either of you know who this dug in guy is that they're talking about or Dugin or do yeah I mean like I drew my wants me to respond to that he's already we've we've discussed this you know I already claimed I don't support the killing of civilians in Ukraine I think everyone knows Dugin's talking about the Ukrainian government and military apparatus but even that I don't support the killing of the government I think they should be dealt with at an international tribunal but I don't support the killing and I think that you know Dugin his daughter was killed by Ukrainian intelligence car bombing operation he's probably very upset and that's why he said that right and your thoughts on that Drew because I think Dugin Dugin called for Dugin called for the genocide of Ukrainians in 2014 that quotes from 2014 and that's why he was targeted by the Ukrainians with the attempted assassination unfortunately they didn't get Dugin they got his daughter his daughter was still a genocidal supporter of the invasion of Ukraine so but it's a sad thing that they didn't get Dugin I mean Dugin is a straight up genocide there he wants genocide against Ukrainians that's what he's been pushing for more than yet like almost not in years now and it's just sad that Ukraine hasn't gotten Dugin yet all right let's continue on here and I'm so sorry if anybody in the super chat feels like we didn't get around to digging into your question you know whatever answer we do get that is how our speaker is answering that question so you know and any confusion we will try to sort out so wait I have a question when did Dugin say that like can you cite the actual source but like where because I always see people say that he said that and I've never seen any evidence I just I've never really cared because there's so many lies but just find the moment in which he said that for me and you can take some time but I actually have the original Facebook post but it's in Russian and I obviously don't speak Russian okay well can you like send it to me on Twitter yes I'll share it on Twitter all right can I did you want to do that now or did you want to carry on with the Q and A so I don't mind oh yeah continue on I'm gonna look at it all right yeah because we can do screen shares we can do review that's fine so let's continue on outer for another five dollars if Putin is not a dictator then why did he get rid of term limits he was a president for two terms eight years and in his and is on his 11th consecutive year Putin if Putin is not a dictator then why did he get rid of term limits okay why did Angela Merkel serve for like 10 plus years as chancellor of Germany is she a dictator Drew I'm still waiting for the I'm posting it now I'm posting it now firstly I don't even like Merkel she's an idiot but secondly like man you can't you can't vote against Putin in Russia it's impossible you can't oppose him do you think in a Russian election could depose Putin it's impossible all right well let's continue on threat to democracy 499 you need to stop popping up here all right Harold Sullivan yeah I was gonna say nothing wrong with his question it's just that I must have copied and pasted at least three times here so I I keep reading it and I'm like how did I get here again Harold Sullivan 499 or yeah Harold in the past Drew called for breaking up of Russia through NATO intervention so by his Drew Drew where's the where's the I'm posting Jackson give it a second man how long does it take to post this because I'm getting the exact image I thought you said you had the Facebook post all right so yes I'm getting it I'm finally and and and by the way again you claimed that he called for the genocide and the mass killing of Ukrainians so let's hope that's in there because I I'm getting the genocide one and I'm getting the kill kill kill one the kill kill kill one was why he got sacked from his position at a Russian university okay so let's see it I'm getting it all right when you get that just let us know and we'll do a screen share we'll check it out that's no problem you know it always adds better context so the question is from Harold Sullivan 499 in the past Drew has called for the breaking up of Russia through NATO intervention by his logic he would be no better than Duggan so no what do you Drew no because I've called for the decolonization of Russia and the imprisoned indigenous peoples of Russia I've not called for the military break up of Russia I'm calling for decolonization Drew do you support the decolonization of America too I certainly support self-determination for first for for the indigenous people of America so you support like the United so you say certainly the reparations and things like this no but do you support decolonization like America turning the land back to Indians in some cases yes uh what about the Indians who took the land from other Indians do you think that those Indians should then give the land back to the first Indians who had it that's uh that is something that the colonizers like to say they like to pretend that um there was no there were no indigenous peoples in the original area they like to pretend that um you know indigenous peoples or did I say that no this is the subtext of what you're saying no I'm saying that I'm saying Indians had fights over different territory over years not in every single case yeah but hypothetically if we gave the land back to a certain tribe of Indians like the Ahichmen Indians would you say to those Ahichmen that they should then turn the land back over to the Indians that held the land prior to the Ahichmen listen listen Jackson what I'm talking about is in some cases there should be land redistributions for indigenous peoples it's very simple very obvious you know there should be there should be more economic opportunity for indigenous peoples if considering America and Canada and Australia democracies and we can democratically vote on these resolutions we should we should do this democratically we should talk about you know self determination for indigenous peoples and we should talk about you know reparations will pass historical injustice we should talk about that democratically but considering Russia's not a democracy I support efforts to to break up the current regime there and help the indigenous peoples who are in prison didn't colonize I support giving I support giving the Novorossia region back to the indigenous Russians and I also support giving Kiev I also I think they're not indigenous to that area if anything why get indigenous Tata inhabitants of that area I'm not done I'm also supportive of the idea of turning the Kiev oblast region over to the indigenous Mongols that's fucking stupid man well the the Mongol invasion Russia Russia was the country that was occupied by the Mongols it was not Ukraine Kiev was not occupied by Mongols oh so you admit that when you make that faulty argument that you made it starting off our debates that Kiev Rus was actually Ukrainian and that wasn't all right yes it was it was Kiev and Rus was Ukrainian Mongols did not take Kiev uh they did take Kiev actually you want to make a bet on that okay fair so they did they did take the take you but fucking idiot fucking idiot but I think turn Kiev over back to the Mongols Russia spent centuries under the Mongols whereas Ukraine comparatively had a far lesser historical experience there Kiev spent the better part of the 13th century under the Mongols if I'm not mistaken and listen I mean I say we turn Kiev back over to the Mongols indigenous Mongols I think we should turn Russia back over to the indigenous Mongol inhabitants of who conquered Russia during the 14th century only if we turn Kiev also and all of Ukraine over to the Mongols uh no I disagree with that all right well let's continue on Dana Mcwhite 499 why does Ukraine have streets named after Nazis stadiums and holidays for war criminals that are world war two that killed the Jews I'm just gonna straight up I don't like Ben Dera I'm just gonna say straight up I don't like Ben Dera I don't like the the OUN the radical extremist right wing in Ukraine I don't like that and I don't like how they ignore the history of that because you know they they were they the OUN carried out ethnic cleansing against Poles and Jews and that is just horrific it should it's wrong should be historically remembered and um you know Zelensky but but let's not let's not get bogged down in in uh the details here because Zelensky the president of Ukraine elected by 70 percent of the Ukrainian people Zelensky is the descendant of Holocaust victims themselves and the radical right wing today in Ukraine is marginalised because they didn't even get two percent they didn't even clear the two percent threshold to enter the parliament so the radical right is not in is not represented in Ukrainian politics uh so Drew is doing this stupid goalposting where he says oh you know I don't want to talk about this let's not talk about this okay but Drew supports all the ideological inheritors of Stefan Bondera and the OUN right there he supported the takeover of Petropor Shenko who poshumously gave the hero of Ukraine award to Stefan Bondera and you know everyone who's pro-Ukraine they talk about how there's no Nazis in the Ukrainian Verkhovna Rada the parliament or the government post 2019 but they never bring up 2014 to 2019 because that's when you had all of the you had all the Ukrainian nationalists Asavites right sector tried into you had all these figures in the Verkhovna Rada you had all your Tanya book within the presidential administration and he was actually involved in the negotiations that they were trying to pursue before there was a coup representing of course the nationalists and the coup backers and and so you know drew goalposts he says I don't support these people but he supports their ideological inheritors who are now leading up a lot of these nationalists military ranks and drew I'm still waiting on the comment from Dugan where he supported genocide in Ukraine and killing yes I posted it I just posted it then on my Twitter all right let's just try to all right so if you want to if you want to do a screen share we can check it out together if you'd like in real time that might be useful for our live chat as well are you guys okay with that yeah awesome yeah if you can share your screen here just choose which one and I just I just um read I just message it to you on Twitter okay I was gonna say I can't share my screen on this end where I'm hosting as well so you'd have to share on your end if you want to put it on the live stream if not that's okay we can continue on with Q&A but it might be it might be something that can drive some contacts as far as what you guys were talking about so it's up to you I just I just I just have to hang on hang on yeah take your time sorry did you have a question there Jackson so this says Ukraine needs to be cleansed of idiots did you want to share your screen there Jackson and watch it from your side well the quote is I'll read out the quote okay that works too I guess Ukraine needs to be cleansed of idiots a genocide of credin suggests itself credin to a virulent closed from the voice of Logos deadly and in addition to this extremely stupid I don't believe that these are Ukrainians Ukrainians are a fine civic people but these are some race of bastards that emerge from the sewage so he's saying I like some Ukrainians but the others have to be genocide that is what you can say okay um well that's his opinion yeah and is a key ideologue of the Kremlin regime no he's never met he's never met Putin so I don't know why you're saying that but what he's clearly saying is that there's certain people within Ukraine that represent a very toxic Nazi ideology and it is it is no different that's that's your death that's your interpretation no it's not an interpretation let me cause the genocide straight up cause the genocide no no no he said Ukraine needs to be cleansed of idiots a genocide of credins okay so he's saying okay so so because he defines them as credins then it's then it's a justified genocide I'm not justifying anything I'm just simply saying this is no difference than Putin's stated goal of denazification all right let's continue on wait sorry say that again say that again Jackson this is no difference than Putin's stated goal of denazification yes because that is actually cover for genocide the the term denazification is actually a term that the Russians are using to mean genocide of the Ukrainian people I'm not justifying anything the fact that you actually say all I'm saying is the statement calling for genocide is representative of deep denazification is very telling all I'm saying here is that you think that anyone who promotes the war effort of Russia should be killed that's your words not mine no no no no I'm only saying the top couple propagandists in Russia so for example Solovyev Dugan these are the people that have justified military targets I'm not saying that Jackson I don't believe you said you said Dugan's daughter and she's not a high-ranking official she's not popular as I said it's unfortunate that they got she's not a journalist look look Jackson no you keep saying that it's unfortunate that Dugan wasn't also killed yeah I know it's sad so let me just finish if I could have gone in the region without Aya but let's let let's let let's uh yeah we'll let you finish up there Jackson and then we'll kick it back over to you Drew so I'm not just vying anything I think anyone who justifies this should have their YouTube channel banned but what I'm saying is that Putin as a stated goal of there's Nazis in Ukraine who won't stop killing the ethnic Russians despite ever many peace deals so we need to pursue denazification and that is no different than the statement that Dugan put forward yes because Dugan is calling for genocide and Putin is also calling for genocide and you're calling for a genocide of those that didn't even no no no no let me finish no you're calling no yes it's a lie you're you're calling Daria Dugina is not a genocide Jackson let me finish you're calling for a genocide of those who quote unquote in a high profile way aided and abetted the war effort no no no no no Jackson if they could have gotten Dugan without his daughter that would have been much better would have been much better I agree however it's unfortunate they got his daughter why did you say why did you say she deserved to die earlier in this debate you said she deserved because I'm not going to I'm not going to like shed tears for her because she did support the genocide of Ukraine so I'm not going to that's different that's different than saying she deserved to die well look in some sense she did deserve it morally um I think it would have been better if they got his her father if it rather than her but at the end of the day she supported the genocide of the Ukrainian people she went to Russian occupied areas of of Ukraine she was supporting genocide and she was a justified military target just as like you know for example the editor of Dirstuma was a justified target at the end of the um I'm studying the world so journalists now are justifying you're not a journalist she's a Russian state television propagandist and Soloviyov is also a justified military target so it's cheating okay so so does that make the host of CNN during the Iraq war a justified military target for all Iraq no because CNN's not state media really why yes I don't like CNN I don't watch it but it's not the same as Russian television propaganda what about to NPR or the BBC again I don't really watch them I don't really like no no no this brings up they don't have I don't have editorial political point they're editorial no no no no let me finish this let me finish this you talked over me the entire debate so let me finish this so as the BBC is championing the cause of Tony Blair to take this genocidal war in Iraq on for the British people you're telling me that BBC hosts who are championing this are not justified military targets for all Iraqis but Russian you know state media hosts or people who've appeared on Russian state TV in a high-profile sense who've championed the war cause of Russia are justified military targets do you understand the logic I will list to you the justified military target Solovyov Dugin a couple of the top Russia television propaganda inside Russia because these are the people that are actually trying to recruit people to go kill innocent Ukrainians this is very obvious these people support genocide they're calling for genocide right now I'm not I'm not calling for you know I'm saying targeted on Solovyov and Dugin that's very justified I think and also you know priggers in some of the top Wagner leaders you know these are military targets and you know if they weren't supporting if they weren't invading Ukraine if they weren't trying to torture innocent people and kill innocent people then they wouldn't be military targets pretty obvious isn't it do you think that the Iraqi military would have justification in taking out the president and or the prime minister whatever dumb shit you have in your country in the entire administrative cabinet of Australian leadership obviously I wouldn't have agreed with that they would have tried it because it's a war but Russia is just a war in Ukraine no because I'm not this is stupid because why the commander achieved because I didn't support the Iraqi military I'm saying it's in a war they probably tried to do that so the commander for example all right let's let Jackson speak please nobody can hear when you're both talking over each other actually we'll we'll let Drew wrap it up we'll I was gonna say I know that you're I just expose your whole argument here because you are you we're gonna because no I just I just exposed the whole fraud of your argument so you're telling me that the commander and chief of a military is not a just military target or they would have tried to target like obviously but you said that it's not a just military target let me finish talking let's let's let's say that it's pretty obvious all right Jackson let's let Drew inject so I was going to I was going to do this I'll just mute you from my audience and I respond thank you yeah as soon as I'm done well sorry Jackson you did interrupt him first no I'm I'm gonna finish my statement here because he interrupted me before that we'll give you 15 seconds commander in chief the commander in chief the commander in chief of Australia is somehow not a just military target but a 29 year old girl who's a journalist who goes on Russian state TV is a just military target your argument is bullshit no let me let me respond let me respond I'm saying look if I was the Iraqi military during 2003 they would have tried it and they started a war it makes sense but I don't support the Iraqi military so that's why I'm against it but on the basis of principle you'd recognize that the commander in chief at least is a just military target right look military commanders are justified military targets that's pretty obvious that doesn't mean that I would necessarily agree with killing you know a prime minister I don't agree with that because I'm not I'm not supporting the Iraqi military but I'm against I'm against Daya Dugina because she's supporting the invasion of an innocent country okay but she's not a military commander she essentially helped she essentially made herself a combatant by going to occupied Maria pool and and trying to recruit people to the military trying to trying to support the genocide of Ukraine but the host of the BBC is not a just military target during Iraq no it's not a just military target because the BBC is not controlled by the Kremlin but it's controlled by the British government no it's not it's editorial not dictated by the British government well so does RT no RT is controlled by the Kremlin and its editorial line is pushed by the Kremlin BBC is controlled by the British government but it is not actually it's funded by the British government but it doesn't have an editorial line that is directed by the British government Actually, you're wrong about that because there's been countless reporters on RT who have criticized the Russian government and even criticized things like the annexation of Crimea. So you're wrong about that. And the British government fell exactly in line with the Blair administration or the BBC fell directly in line with the Blair administration when he took their country to war in Iraq. And somehow you're saying that RT is a justified military target, but or toss or whatever you're talking about. Jackson, I'm not saying the average RT journalist. I'm not supporting that. I'm talking about the top propaganda figures in Russia today, Dugan Solovyev. These people are military targets because they are every day. So Dugan's daughter, Darya Dugina, 29 year old woman who was on Russian state TV, and she wasn't even a host. She was just on it. So she is a just military target. Dugan, look, it would have been better if they got the host of the BBC championing the war in Iraq are not just military targets for the Iraqi military. I don't support the Iraqi military. All right, well, let's continue on where we've kind of divulged into that there. Drew Ukraine, I'm sorry, from Dana McWhite. Well, like, you know, according according to here's a source, she's the chief editor of a disinformation website run by Prigazin who controls Wagner. So yes, she's a fucking combatant because Prigazin is a combatant. All right, so proof for that is working directly with Wagner. Yes, combatants. I was your proof for that. I don't want to have to cut you off there. But if you say we have been going for almost three and a half hours here and we do have a few more super chats to get through. I know that's a little bit more than what you guys probably signed up for originally when we had pitched this. But you guys. Yeah, I do. I mean, I'm letting you guys drive the conversation where you guys want to put it. But yeah, I got one more question. So how is Dugan? You mentioned that Dugina was on Russian TV or something. How is Dugan, who was just a philosopher, never met Putin? How is he a justified military target? Dugan is not just a philosopher. He was advocating the genocide of Ukrainians and he was directly employed by Malafit as Malafit was working for the Kremlin. So yes, Dugan was an operative. A point into what? Dugan was the top propagandist on Malafit's propaganda channel. And Malafit is a top Putin ally. So yes, Dugan is part of the Russia state apparatus. These are journalists, philosophers who had never met with Putin. They're not journalists and philosophers, they're enemy combatants. He's a philosopher. He never went to war. He never made a war. Dugan is a combatant. The point he's saying he's calling for a genocide against Ukrainians, he's a combatant. That unfortunately does not, for your argument here, make anyone a combatant calling for a genocide of a certain people. It just simply doesn't. Maybe not, maybe not, maybe not legally under international law, but it is certainly morally justified. Well, you've had no regard for international law throughout the duration of this conversation. Neither have the Russians. Let's try to continue on because we do like. If you cared about international law, you would be against the Russian invasion of Ukraine. All right, let's try to continue on. So do college professors, do college professors who champions the war in Iraq at Harvard or Princeton University? Are they just military targets? Because they were calling for the genocide of the Iraqi people based on a lie. There was no genocide of Iraqi people. I am against the Iraqi war, but there wasn't a genocide of the Iraqi people. And I also fundamentally do not support. There's far more of a genocide. There's a far more. Now last thing here, there's far more of a genocide against the people of Iraq with millions dead than the tallies right now and the statistics of civilians dead in Ukraine, which amasses to about like 8000. I am fine. I'm sorry, Drew. I don't want to. I don't mean to cut you off there. I am fine to let the conversation keep going in the open format. But I will say that we do have enough questions that I think whatever you guys need to get out of your system as far as like the talking points, I think we're going to get to them. Because like I said, we do have enough super chats here that if we keep having back and forth, we might not get through all of them. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Sorry about that. Drew needs to get a bunch of lipids out of this system as well. Well, as I say, you know, I gotta get my stardom out here as well. You know, everybody have a look, right? Here I am. No, I'm kidding. Drew from Dana McWhite, 999. Drew, Ukraine has government websites that sell Ukraine women for prostitution online. I can send you over 10 links of this. It sounds like Dana, you might be a bit of a salesman. Are you trying to sell us something here? I'm not sure what's going on. Let's continue on from there. Damien, $5. Jackson, you cry about Dugina, but are silent about Russia bombing Ukraine citizens. Exactly. Millions of refugees. Let me read the questions. You are silent about Russia bombing Ukrainian citizens and causing millions of refugees. How dare you, they say in a Christopher Hitchens type way at the end there. How dare you? They're saying you cry about Dugina, but are silent about Russia bombing Ukraine citizens and causing millions of refugees. Thoughts on that, Jackson? Exactly. I shed no tear over the crimes of Nazis. The only reason why I have no problem with what the Russians are doing is because the Ukrainians have turned the civilian hostage situations into active military targets. Amnesty International proved that and Drew is still fat. Jackson supports the genocide of the Ukrainian people. He supports mass murder, torture, rape of children and women in Ukraine. And he wants us to cry over Daria Dugina. Fuck that. I'm not going to cry over Daria Dugina. She supported the genocide. She supported the rape and torture and murder of civilians too. Well, you guys opened the door on the ad-homs there. So I did everything I could live chat to try to keep it civil here. But we're getting extra juicy and there's not a whole lot I can do about that because I don't want to be putting these guys on mute every couple of minutes here. And, you know, they're not talking over each other too much. It's a bit of an interruption, but we're doing what we can. So, Smithy for $5. Drew, why you support acts of terrorism on civilian by car bombing and call yourself a human right activist? Don't dodge this question by using your dog. So there's been a couple of questions here. We're just going to wrap them all up about something about a car bombing. I don't know. Yeah, Daria Dugina was killed in a car bomb. As I said, it would have been much more preferable if they got her father, who was basically the top Russia pro-genocide propaganda today. Would it be much more preferable if they got her father? Daria herself did, however, work for Wagner, and she was a supporter of genocide in Ukraine. You did not work for Wagner. That's a lie. She worked for Wagner's chief, Prigazin. No, that's a lie. And if you're talking about terrorism, she's the one. She, her father, Prigazin, Solovyev, every day, they're advocating terror bombing raids on Ukrainian civilians. They're advocating the genocide of Ukrainians. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed already. The Russians, the Putin and the Russians, they were crowing over how they were going to starve and freeze the Ukrainians to death in the winter. They're crowing about that. They've targeted civilian infrastructure. They've carried out genocidal war crimes all across the country. And if you're going to talk about, oh, Daria Dugina, that's an act of terrorism. No, the act of terrorism is Russia invading Ukraine and terrorizing the Ukrainian people. Just yesterday we saw schoolchildren in terror fleeing for their lives. Okay, wrap it up. Wrap it up. You're saying wrap it up about school... Stop crying, stop crying, wrap it up. So, again, Jackson thinks it's funny. Jackson thinks it's funny that Ukrainian schoolchildren are terrorized. Jackson thinks it's funny. Jackson thinks it's funny when Ukrainian schoolchildren are terrorized by missiles indiscriminately hitting Kiev. Jackson thinks it's funny. So if anyone here is inhumane and supporting terrorism, it's Jackson, not me. I'm supporting Ukraine's effort to defend itself. And the people who... Wrap it up. Wrap it up. Inside Russia who support genocide, they should not live comfortable lives. Wrap it up. Wrap it up. Okay, no, I have to respond briefly to that. That's fine. But we want to try to keep it to 30 seconds if that's cool. Okay, so please don't interrupt me for the next 30 seconds. So, what's so crazy and just blatantly asinine about Drew's argument here is he says, well, Daria Dugina, who is a journalist, should be killed by the Ukrainians because she allegedly... I don't even buy this. I haven't seen this, but let's just take his argument at face value. She allegedly was a journalist for a media outlet that was owned by the Wagner chief. How is she a journalist? Shut the fuck up, you fat fuck. So, she was a journalist for the journalistic outlets that was in part owned by Evgeny Progosian, who also in coordination with owning many businesses, he owns, you know, he owns, I guess, this journalistic outlet. So, and he owns Wagner. So, by that logic, then you could make the argument that a janitor at the White House is a justified military target for the Iraqi military... Daria was not a janitor. She was a fucking top propagandist of the Russian regime, advocating genocide, helping recruit people to kill you. I also say that if it wasn't for every janitor, every single gardener at the White House, the goals in the stated, you know, day-to-day tasks... Why don't you say that, Jackson? Jackson, why don't you say that? Do you support killing White House staff? All right, I'm going to inject the question here. We got another question. The goals in the stated tasks, daily tasks of the White House would never be able to be completed. Okay, so you want to... Drew, we're going to let him wrap up. This whole argument does fall apart when you asked Drew the simple question. Drew, do you support the Ukrainian military attacking Russian civilians? No. Really? I don't support attacking civilians. Only the top propagandists and military... I support Ukraine defending itself, destroying the Russian military, top Russian government leaders, and top Russian government propagandists who are mobilizing support for the war. All right. Do you disagree with the recent events in which the Ukrainians sent explosive-strapped drones into Moscow and hit civilian targets? What do you have to say about Russia hitting civilian targets every day of the war for fucking 450 days? The simple question. There's nothing to tell that. Simple question. Simple question. You support... You civilian-instructed attacks by Russia every day. All right, let's continue one. We're not continuing on with this type of dialogue. Such insane hypocrisy. Answer the question. You're asking me. You're asking me. We have Q&A. We have Q&A. And it's not... The Ukrainians are suffering the first version. Sorry, Drew. All right. Like I said, I don't want to... I'm going to open up the Zoom call. You want me to answer the question? Don't make me open up the Zoom call. I'm trying to keep an eye on the YouTube. All right. Come on, guys. Keep things easy on me if you can. All right. Open question. Putin is good discuss. That's from Captain Waffles. We're going to do one minute back and forth. We're going to try not to interrupt each other and try not to speak about each other the best that we can. So over to you, Drew. One minute. Putin's good. Discuss. War criminal. Genocide air. Somebody who wants to return Russia, Ukraine, centuries into the past, into a past of impure conquest and saddam and mass repression. He is one of the biggest thieves in the world because he has stolen so much from the Russian people. And this is somebody who has sanctioned the rape of Ukrainian civilians, the torture of Ukrainian civilians, the bombing of Ukrainian civilians, the rape of Ukrainian civilians. Ukrainian kids have been raped by Russian troops at points in this war. So Putin is responsible for all these crimes. He's a horrible war criminal. He's a horrible genocidal war criminal. And the world will be so much better when Putin is denazified and he goes to hell. And he goes to hell and he endures 10,000 years of hell as punishment for his crimes. All right, over to you, Jackson. One minute there. Putin's good. Thoughts. It's funny. The commander-in-chief of the war criminals of the Australian military is not a justified military target. But Drew wants Putin dead. Okay. So yeah, Putin is good. I don't like everything Putin's done. But overall, I mean, like, can anyone really... Because Australia is good and... I'm sorry, we muted you, Drew. Yeah, you need to shut your fat mouth, okay? No, do not. If I... Like I said, if you say that one more time, I'm gonna have to kick you out. I got so many stupid chats. I don't want you to get his breaking rules and get yourself booted. All right, I will mute you as well because I'm talking right now. And where I'm moderating this debate, I have to keep some level of control. We don't want to get it demonetized. We want to respect the rules and we don't want to drive our live chat away by just mudslinging. So let's try to follow the rules that I've put forward here. I will kick you guys out. I'm sorry, I'm gonna be straight honest with you. I won't follow that anymore. Thank you. So as long as he doesn't interrupt me. Okay, so... So, you know, anyways, Putin good. Yeah, I mean, no one can agree with everyone on everything. But Putin overall is taking us into the multipolar world. He just like Stalin is putting up the main fight against Nazism as it presents itself in 2023. You know, Stalin basically did it single-handed. I know Drew's like one of those LARPers that says, Oh, what about Lynn Lees? But no, it was Stalin who did it all. And Lynn Lees did basically nothing. And, you know, for two years, they refused to open up the Western front. So Stalin base, Putin base, they're taking us into... Putin's taking us into a new multipolar order freeing million of people from the economic cold that the West has, you know, placed around the necks of individuals in Africa and Latin America and, you know, all across the world for so long. So I'm very happy to see Putin in power. All right. And yeah, let's continue on with our super chats. And like I say, don't take any personal offence anybody in the super chat. I'm just trying to keep everything moving along here as our subject of the debate is is Russia's war on Ukraine justified? That's what we're talking about. Excuse me. So, Alexandros, five euros. Why does Drew call Jihadi, Arslan, Hydiat, Bro? And given he denies Greek and Armenian genocides, says Cyprus belongs to Turkey and celebrates Hagia Sophia. I don't know what a lot of that means. So I'll let you expound. Over to you, Drew. You're still muted, Drew. Sorry, I'm going to get you off there. What's the question? So the question is, why does Drew call Jihadi, Arslan, Hydiat, Bro? And given he denies Greek and Armenian genocides, says Cyprus belongs to Turkey and celebrates Hagia Sophia. I don't know. This this is just CCP propaganda against one of the Uighur journalists. Obviously, I disagree with Arslan on some things, but to call him a Jihadi is fucking insane. And it just fits with the CCP propaganda method of calling all the Uighurs terrorists. All right. Let's continue on because we still got a lot of questions to get through here. And the quicker we can get them wrapped up better. I imagine at this point, because we are going to probably wrap up at around the four hour point if we keep going the way we're going. So $5 from Otter says, please look up Scott Ritter on Google and see what shows up. Have Jackson explain his association with him? I'll explain my association with him as soon as someone saves Drew's dog and stops him from fucking his dogs. Okay. Straight up. This is just fucking insane by Jackson. Jackson. Jackson is friends with a known pedophile, somebody who was convicted as a sex offender, Scott Ritter. He tried to. He tried to. You fuck your dogs. You fuck your dogs. You fuck your dogs. Scott Ritter tried to rape a 15-year-old and Jackson was friends with him. Jackson is friends with men. Jackson is friends with a Russian propaganda Scott Ritter who was convicted for trying to rape a 15-year-old. He thinks it's funny and he thinks, blah, blah, blah. It's very funny that he's friends with a rapist pedophile. Funny. Why do you fuck your dogs? You can decide just to not answer. That's very funny. If you do not want to. But if. Jackson can't answer. Jackson can't answer. Why can't you answer the question? Jackson, you're friends with a rapist pedophile. Why do you fuck your dogs? Why do you fuck your dogs? Why do you fuck your dogs? Jackson, you can't answer. Why do you fuck your dogs? Jackson, you can't answer the question. Why do you fuck your dogs? If this is all we have to offer, then there's nothing left to offer a live chat. So if you guys want to divulge into this, that's up to you to do that in your own space. Let the record state. But you're not doing that here. We're not going to do any Let the Record state right now. Like I said, this is the last chance. We're going to go through the super chats and if you guys can't keep it together, if you can't be respectful, we're going to shut this down. So last chance. Samir Farsane for $5. J.H. Cold War Against Ukraine. Euro neighbors aren't seeking NATO's protection from Ukraine. Russia supports U.S. enemies. What are you defending? What? That's from Samir Farsane. $5. Say it one more time. Cold War Wasn't Against Ukraine. Euro neighbors aren't seeking NATO's protection from Ukraine. Russia supports U.S. enemies. What are you defending? That's the question. I think I might have just put the emphasis on the romance. What am I defending? Well, yeah. I mean, that was a very oddly phrased question. I don't support the deep state doesn't represent me. So you say America's enemies. Well, that's like George Bush's enemies. And I've got far more in common with the working class people of Russia who are patriots defending their SMO. Then I do with George Bush. And as for the Cold War, Ukraine actually was involved in the Cold War in a very interesting way. During the Cold War, the CIA utilized Banderites. And even after the fall of the Soviet Union directly after, CIA protected Bandera, hid him and encouraged him to pursue his bloody violent clashes against Soviet officials and civilians all throughout Ukraine. So, yeah, it was obviously very involved in the Cold War. And it was a strategic point just as it is today in this new hot proxy war with Russia. All right, let's continue on. Dana McWait, 999. Drew, do you know Kiev is the original capital of Russia? Also, that's a lie about tanks from the 60s and 70s. You must be too young. The Cold War made Russia sell off everything. Lord of War. No, Russia is using tanks from 60s and 70s. They're taking out tanks from the stockpiles right now. And so what was the other part of the question? They said, did you know that Kiev is the original capital of Russia? No, no, Russia didn't even exist as an independent entity until much later. So Kievan Rus was more Ukrainian than Russian. And Russia didn't exist as an independent entity until much later in history. All right, let's continue on. For both of you, we'll start over on your side, Jackson. For one minute, why is the war taking so long? Because Putin is not provoked by rogue terror attacks. And his only response to these rogue terror attacks has been either increased bombing of the electrical infrastructure or increased bombing now of the intelligence HQs, which we just saw take place a few moments ago while we were streaming. In Kiev, there was 10 major blasts. In Kiev, probably another intelligence HQ getting blown up. And he doesn't let him date, you know, noteworthy dates or anything like that sway them, sway the Russian military or do anything that would be seen as too escalatory or a bad strategy on the battlefield. The goal is to slowly pick apart the Ukrainian military. And Bakhmut was a meat grinder. They achieved the goal of killing tens of thousands of Ukrainians in Bakhmut. Even the official leaked documents from the Pentagon reported on by the Washington Post prove that to be the case. And far less Russians died, Wagner fighters died in Bakhmut than Ukrainians. So the goal is being achieved by Russia slowly, but surely. All right. Let's continue on there. Can I say something? It was kind of directed at both of you. So yeah, we'll give you up to 30 seconds interrupted there and we'll continue on. Russia lost up to 100,000 casualties fighting in Bakhmut. Gorkin himself, one of the top Russian propagandists, the guy who started the war in the Donbass, he called it a self-extermination on the part of the Russian military on the part of Wagner. He said it was incompetence in the extreme. This is what the, this is what actual Russian media propagandists are saying. So it's funny, like in the English language media, the Russian propagandists like Jackson Hinkle go, oh, you know, Russia's Russia's on the cusp of victory. We're so close to total victory. And then if you go listen to the actual Russian media propagandists inside Russia, like Strelkov and Gorkin, Strelkov Gorkin, he's going, this was self-extermination. We lost so many men. It was a meat grinder for us. That's what Gorkin said. And every Russian military watcher knows it. They know it was a disaster. He said it was a military disaster because they took a city that's been wiped from the earth after a hundred thousand casualties and it doesn't open up any new sections of the front for them. It doesn't create any new strategic opportunities for Russia. It's a disaster for Russia. Wagner's actions in Bakhmut were actually a military disaster for Russia. It was one of the biggest, the biggest victories in history. All right. Let's continue on. Chris Marilok, $10 for Drew. How does the United States and NATO expect to contain China when they have pushed Russia into the Chinese sphere? Is in confrontation with China now dependent on Russian military defeat? That's for you, Drew. Russia had already decided upon a course of confrontation with the West, which would have ultimately pushed them into the arms of China anyway. So it is Putin and the decision makers in Russia unfortunately decided that they would prefer to be a Chinese vassal than to integrate into Europe and be a normal country because they were so intent on continuing Russia as an imperial project. They didn't want to just transform Russia into an ordinary nation state that could be integrated into Europe and integrated into the democratic world. Instead, they were focused on pillaging Russia for its natural resources for their own wealth and to distract the population from overthrowing them. They created hypernationalism to deflect attention and this forced them into the the furnace of Ukraine. This is why they ultimately had to go into Ukraine. It's about regime survival for Putin. But ironically, it's all ultimately damages regime so much more. So I don't buy the whole argument. Oh, we've got to contact. We've got to be friendly with Russia to contain China. No, Russia already decided on a course that would set it on the path of becoming a Chinese vassal. Unfortunately, that is what the Russian decision makers already decided upon. Well, there you go. We got it right there. So Sam Danjeev, 275, some sort of currency. I'm not sure how it translates, but 275. Thanks, buddy. Drew, you stand with NATO US UK invasion of Iraq. They lie mass-destruct while looting Iraq. 1.2 million people killed. South Africa called out US UK for killing 1.2 million people. Do you stand with NATO? I don't support the war in Iraq, but NATO right now in 2023 is a forceful, good, forceful anti-imperialism in the world because Russia is the most, Russia is the one that is carrying out imperialist wars of aggression and conquest. So it's really funny. Jackson and all the other tankies, they call out imperialist wars of aggression when it comes to American invading Iraq. But when it comes to Russia invading Ukraine and imperialist war of aggression, that's all good. So they're fine with Russian and Chinese imperialism. They just don't like it.