 and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around the world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper. And the title of today's episode is never again must be now in Ukraine. Genocide and war crimes grinding away at our collective soul. War crimes in genocide are continuing in the Ukraine. They're being committed by Russian policies and brutal actions. Horrible and heinous killings of civilians as well as the abductions of journalists, activists, and city mayors demand our world to make sure never again has meaning. The innocent people's lives require a strong response rooted in international human rights and humanitarian law. And the first wave of the war indicates Ukraine is a symbol of freedom. The daily actions by Ukraine illustrates the commitment to democracy and liberty with the desire to cherish human rights in daily lives. The world response requires innovative initiatives and strong international institutions. So today we're joined by Tatyana, who is the head of the Human Rights Center, Zmina. Tatyana, thank you so much for joining us today. Good morning. Good morning, dear colleagues. It's a pleasure to have you here because we know that it's 50 days of violence and death since the war began. There's been 16 emergency UN Security Council meetings. And unfortunately, close to two-thirds of all children in Ukraine have been forced to flee their homes because of the ongoing war in the country and more than 4.6 million people from Ukraine and displaced estimates, 7.1 million internally. How are you holding up? Right, it's the most tragic days in the modern history of our country, which became independent after the collapse of the USSR. And my organization is documenting war crimes and crimes against humanity across Ukraine. We've been working on the documentation of human rights abuses in the occupied Crimea since 2014 and also fixed violations during the war in Donbass. But what we saw before, it cannot be compared to what we have now. Unfortunately, it's very grim tragic day for the whole history of our country and even those experienced human rights defenders, even for them, it's very difficult to work with. No, we thank you so much for your bravery to do this work in the face of such horrors. And we know there's evidence of civilian murders, indiscriminate shelling, and the Polish president, Duda, even stated, quote, it's not a war, this is terrorism. We also know this week, President Joe Biden claimed it was genocide, saying, quote, it's becoming clear and clear that Putin is just trying to wipe out even the idea of being Ukrainian. And now we think and we appreciate the Ukrainian president tweeting, calling things by their names is essential to stand up to evil. So it's really important to see all the work that you're doing to document what's happening. Yes, it is very important because Russia is spreading disinformation and false fake news across the world that this old atrocities and nightmare happening in Ukraine it's just not true that we do it for ourselves, that this is a fake story. That's why it's very important and we have a huge number of international media working in Ukraine and covering these stories. Unfortunately, some journalists were already killed during the shelling. Foreign journalists as well as Ukrainian journalists, some of them are men, this is very dangerous but we are very grateful for them that they tell the world true story what is happening in Ukraine. And unfortunately, for example, when Russian army left the northern part of Kiev region, Chernihiv region, Sumy region, even more atrocities were discovered when people were killed with Titan hands when hundreds of civilians were buried in mud graves. When Russian troops were shooting with their tanks, people who were trying, civilians who were trying to evacuate from these cities with their kids, with wives. And for example, the house of my family is in Irkina, it's a city near Kiev, it's Irkina, Bukha and Kostomai and our house was damaged because the bomb hit the house and the roof is now, we have a huge hole in the roof and the bomb was hit directly to our bedroom. So this is something that's happening to all of us and but I would say, and a lot of people were forced to live and we were lucky to evacuate the parents of my husband. So they are now in safe place but if they would stay for a couple of days there, I even cannot imagine what would happen to them because that part of the city was occupied for several weeks by Russian troops. It's absolutely heartbreaking to hear that your home was shelled and that there's a hole in the roof but it's so good to hear though that your family was safe. But this is really just the beginning of the human rights violations that are happening. Amnesty International, of course, has also affirmed what you shared of extra judicially executed citizens. Also, it's important that they've been finding the bodies around 360 civilians in Bukha near where you were describing but also the organization of security and cooperation in Europe, the OSCE, has also done a report and they were able to get agreement from 45 of the 57 participating states to look into the war crimes and have just released their most recent report that confirms much of what you've been saying. That's true. Actually, this report was published yesterday and it was done by the expert of the so-called Moscow Mechanism which was launched by the OSCE several decades ago. And this was done by the group of three independent experts, professors of the international law. And actually we met these experts. I visited several weeks ago. I visited them together with my other colleagues, human rights defenders from Ukraine. And we have a coalition which is called Ukraine 5 AM Coalition. 5 AM is the time when all we woke up from the sounds of explosion in different cities of Ukraine on 24th of February. And actually on the second day of the war we already started to collect the data about war crimes. Working also from bomb shelters because we often very often have air strike alarm. So we have to go to the shelters, to the metro station. So I slept some nights on the platform of metro station or underground parking. So it's really risky to work and stay here. But it is important that all my NGO is working here on the ground from different cities of Ukraine. And we document and collect this data together with 26 other organizations. And this data was sent also to the experts of the OSCE and in their report they refer to our coalition that they used our materials. I think this is like the collection of data on the ground is very important also for different international organizations and for their assessment of the situation. As always the NGOs are really the oxygen of the human rights movement. And the work that you're doing is really crucial. It is the most important. So we thank you and encourage you to continue of course as you're doing in, you can see results already. And as you described, the new NGO, the movement coming together of 5 a.m. It's powerful to see how the times you're living in are framing the new networks that you're creating. And I've been on the subways there in Kiev and can see exactly where they are. The quickest metro escalators I've ever seen in my life is just, but I'm so glad that you're being safe. And we can always see already the results of your important human rights documentation because OSC mission found clear patterns of international humanitarian law violations by the Russian forces. And they cited specifically the failures to take necessary precautions and proportionality or spare sites in schools and hospitals. They also did agree with the March 16 attack on the Mario Pool Drama Theater. And they said that was definitely a war crime where 300 people were killed. That's true, but we also would like to draw attention to another problem because this report was done not by the work of their experts on the ground. And unfortunately OSC special monitoring mission left Ukraine at the beginning of the war. They have their staff around 1,000 of their staff. They were working in Donbass all these years and they fixed the shellings and casualties during that war in Donbass. But when that large-scale conflict erupted, almost all of them left Ukraine and alongside with international staff of many other foreign missions. Now the situation is better because some of them, some organizations bring more stuff to Ukraine. But it is very important for us that we are not alone here working and collecting all the data and trying to provide also humanitarian assistance to the most vulnerable groups. For example, my colleague from my NGO, Ludmila Yanke, she works in Kiev as a medical volunteer and she supplies the food and medicine for elderly people, for seriously ill people with cancer, with other problems because they need to survive throughout all this war. And it is very important that all society is united and people donate a lot of money. And I remember that the last time from Euro Maidan eight years ago, when all people work together as one big mechanism and everyone has its own role which is very important for the whole system to function. No, maybe you could share with us because you really are the catalyst and the spark to create that flame of justice by the work that you're doing there on the ground. Can you share how you're able to communicate and coordinate after setting up the network of the Ukraine 5 a.m. and the way that you've been able to operate so far? Yes, actually all communication and coordination is done through protected channels, through messengers. It's very important that the internet and bank system works well in Ukraine. We are even able to send money for bank cards for those people, activists, journalists who are now on the newly occupied territories by Russia like Kyrgyzstan and other cities, other regions. So we communicate mainly via these electronic needs and everyone is in different place. And this is very important that in case when we have the problems with internet coverage, we receive the support from Elon Musk and Starlink were already provided, not only for Ukrainian army but also we have human rights defenders. We also have some Starlink that we can use in the territories where there is a problem with connection. No, and it's really important because in the end this is definitely a war of Russia's choice in the worst and many diplomats around the world from the international organizations, the United Nations, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, but many governments tried many bilateral actions and many things were done to prevent this conflict. But as we look at it, it's really important that unfortunately Russia is held bent on continuing this and inflicting it seems as much pain as possible. And one of the sad parts is the new appointment of General Devornikov because if you look at his history of what he's done in the past, it's been brutal assaults on civilian population centers in Syria and other locations. So the work that you've done so far in this first 50 days is even more important going forward. That's true. And the reason why this war is happening now in the heart of Europe is the immunity of the Russian Federation for all war crimes they committed in previous conflicts. I'm not even speaking about Crimea and Donbass, the territories of Ukraine which were already occupied by Russia eight years ago. But this is also about Georgia, about Russian war crimes in Syria, about Russian war crimes in Chechnya. And there were no accountability for what they did throughout the last decades. And I think that the Western world was underestimating the evil which was growing inside Russian Federation. After the occupation of Crimea, we were screaming and asking to impose very strict sanctions against Russian Federation to stop buying Russian oil and gas. But on the contrary, the Nord Stream 2 was built up and many countries were supplying also military equipment to Russia. So the Russian regime was growing up all these eight years and finally it attacks. And this is very important. The message I want to deliver that if Ukraine will not stand against it, if Ukraine will not win, the regime will move forward. It can be a big global war. It is very important to stop it now and to punish this evil because this impunity would provoke them for new conflicts. I agree. I was there in 2015 and 2016 and you could see the monuments made for the people who had already been killed in Crimea as well as in Donbass in that region. And it's one of those aspects of why we need a strong international human rights and humanitarian law system because unfortunately authoritarian regimes and brutal dictators, if not confronted, unfortunately keep moving and going forward. And there are many lessons in history. So we have to have a strong system that's rooted in human rights to protect people but also to prevent, to make sure that a person would actually think of the consequences and that had not been done in 2014 with the actions. And that's why now I agree with you that the actions by Ukraine today is really standing on freedom's frontier but it would have continued rolling into other parts of Europe. And that's why there's more solidarity and support for the people of Ukraine but there's no reason you should have to sacrifice him alone and why we all need to work together to make sure that that sprays of never again which was uttered after the horrors of the Holocaust is not just a slogan but actually a structure, a system that prevents any more homes like yours being bombed in innocent deaths taking place. Yes, that's true, unfortunately, 80 years after the Second World War we have the growing science of fascism in the neighboring country. And this is an irony because they declared their war as a military operation in Ukraine in order to denacify Ukraine but the real problem is inside Russian Federation where majority of the population supports Putin's policy, supports his bloody war and the propaganda was so hard and so powerful that even having relatives in Russia, many of Ukrainians cannot convince them and cannot deliver them what is happening there because they would rather believe their crazy television than their real close relatives living in Ukraine. And I think for them in a way it is also that they do not want to admit this information because to accept it means for them to recognize that they did really terrible things to us and that they allowed this evil inside them to dominate by supporting this aggressive Putin's policy. That's why it is very important as you say to ensure their justice and accountability. And we have of course the justice and investigation would be mainly domestic work for Ukrainian law enforcement system because we have now Ukrainian prosecutor's office registered over 6,000 criminal proceedings and this is only a part. There would be much more when the new territories would be opened like Mariupol when the investigators have access to Mariupol there would be much more criminal proceedings. And there is no one international court that could deal with so many, you know episodes and criminal proceedings. So it would be mainly domestic work for Ukrainian law enforcement but it is very important that the international courts like ICC in the Hague also will assess and follow the chain of commands because this is not just some, you know some attacks by mistake that are committed by Russian soldiers in some regions. It is their deliberate policy to cause as much harm to the civilian population as possible and they conduct this war with violations of all the rules of the war. They fight, Russian army fights not only against Ukrainian army but they fight against civilian population and they commit all sorts of war crimes including extrajudicial killings, destroyings of residential areas, kindergarten, schools they attack ambulances and hospitals. There is a big deportation of the population from those newly occupied territories to Russia and we think it's our like estimation is that this is at least 200,000 of Ukrainians that were deported to the territory of Russia from those Ukrainian territories taken by them. There are a lot of land mines and on those released territories people just are killed by these mines when for example they drive with a car and there are explosions. So this is a huge problem which we will have to deal with and also we call for establishment of the special tribunal on the crime of aggression because unlike the crime of genocide or crimes against humanity war crimes which are under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, the crime of aggression which was like the crime from which other crimes were possible will not due to jurisdiction limitation go under their jurisdiction. That's why we also call for the establishment of the special tribunal on the crime of aggression of putting this regime against Ukraine and we would like to see this tribunal one day in the rebuilt drama theater in Mariupol. Thank you so much, no. And it really does connect the points where if you don't have human rights at home then of course the human rights at the global scene also crumbles and that's the example where Putin has been a brutal dictator killing and poisoning any political rivals passing new laws that if you say war or invasion you would be up to 20 years in prison for any journalist. So it's that deterioration of human rights in the country that then allows him to operate with impunity but it's amazing to see many Russians still standing up and organizing and others leaving and fleeing saying that they can no longer stand it. And we have to look at what we can do to then be able to make sure that human rights are respected inside countries but also in the global arena and that's why the Human Rights Council's new commission of inquiry will release its first report in September that will also fulfill and build on some of the important work you're doing. You've also looked at some of the most gruesome cases though with mayors being abducted and could you share a bit about what has happened to leaders who've been trying to do their job to protect their people in certain cities of Ukraine and the fate that they have faced unfortunately these war crimes. Yes, that's a typical practice of Russian Federation when they occupy the territory they start immediately a production of active local citizens. And we saw it from Crimea in March, 2014 Russians and local paramilitary group acting together with Russian army called Crimean self-defense kidnapped dozens of local journalists, activists mainly from Crimean-Tatar origin the indigenous people of Crimea and many of them are still missing. We think that eight years these people are not alive anymore. And this practice then was continued in Donbass and the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics. So now when Russian troops got control over some parts of Ukraine like the Donetsk region, Kherson region, the Porizhya region they started to kidnap active local people village heads, city mayors, volunteers, activists, journalists. As for now our NGO documented over 130 cases of enforced disappearances. And some people were already released but majority still are kept in detention and many of them are tortured and kept in communicado there is no connection with them. And six people were already found murdered. And one of them, for example the village head of the village mutation near Kiev her body, she was kidnapped. And then when Russians left this territory her body was found in a grave together with her husband and her son. So why Russians do this cruel practice? There are two reasons first of all they want to push local self-government representatives to cooperate with them, to collaborate with them but people are not greeting them are not welcoming them. So they kidnap with active members of local communities to terrify others, to stop the resilience because resilience is very big the nation is very united. And in many of those occupied cities there are peaceful demonstrations with Ukrainian flags against this aggression under the gang of Russian troops. So in order to break this resilience they kidnap and torture the most active members of the local community. But we have already, we have a part of Ukraine which was taken by them already released and we do hope that the rest of Ukraine will be released our army is fighting very strongly against this invasion and we hope that this war will be over and all the society supports army and what we need from the rest of the world from the countries like United States. By President Biden, I just read before our interview he said that he wants to come to Ukraine so we expect him here in Ukraine in Kiev because we already had the visits of the presidents of Baltic States of Poland and also Boris Johnson, British Prime Minister. So I was in Poland when President Biden visited Poland but he didn't come to Ukraine. So maybe he changed his opinion and we wait him here but our message is that we are ready to stand and to fight against Russian aggression but we need more support, more military equipment to protect our state and we need the oil and gas embargo to stop function in Russian war machine because they use this money for attack, for military attack to Ukraine. Thank you so much. And you really did connect all of the campaigns. It's been important to build the international law system with the international criminal court with the international focus on the new commission of inquiry and the human rights council through the UN General Assembly removing Russia from the human rights council but then also the important role of corporations to not allow the funds to continue to then really allow for the perpetuation of the war crimes. And then of course the campaign on the ground by the people. I know the song that's resonating with everyone is the new Pink Floyd release, Hey Hey Rise Up with the lead singer of Boombox. And so we hope that music can inspire us as we keep this movement going to stand up for justice for all people but thank you for all the work that you do and the human rights advocacy and we stand with you in solidarity and we send Aloha from Hawaii to you. Thank you so much for everything you're doing. Thank you to all people of Hawaii for support of Ukraine. Aloha. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.