 pathway on the other side, part of our pathway on the other side is building an augmented reality district of learning in downtown Washington DC, and really looking at augmented reality is the technology that, you know, merges people and technology and physical communities. So I try to explain this, hopefully that was at least a start. I'll put some links. That helped a lot. Thank you. Thanks, Michael. And I just showed a little bit about Michael in my brain and also the BitLattice project, which is part of what Michael wanted to talk about a bit among friends who care about platforms and things like that. So shall we dive into that? Do we want to sort of check in a little bit? I'd love to hear who else I'm talking with, too. I guess you all know each other. Sure. We've been hanging wild in these zooms. Quick round of intros. Hank, you want to? I have a suggestion that everybody encapsulates somebody else real quick. So Michael Grossman is a technologist, business person, maybe not in that order. And he runs a cool social bookmarking site called Factor, F-A-C-T-R, very interesting thoughtful, like he's one of the thoughtful people, comes up with nice pointed stuff. And he's got a background in not technology and not business as much. So he's kind of a little bit more artsy. Awesome. Michael, do you want to take a swing? That's a tough act to follow. I know. I know. It's much about anybody, as Pete just said about me. I'll try you, Jerry, just because I've known you the longest, though barely, and say Jerry is someone who looks at everything in the world and tries to map it in his brain and figure out what it means and meet the people who he's mapping around whenever he can. And has made more connections in both senses of that word than anybody else I know, I think. And yeah. Cool. Thanks. Thanks. So F-A-C is an adventure with us who cares really, really deeply about the community side of all the things we're talking about, and also kind of media explorations, and is trying to figure out how to motivate us to come together in possibly game-like formations so that we can make serious play out of assembling how the world works and finding our way back to discourse and dialogue and solving the world's problems. Can I use that? Sure. It's now recorded, and Pete's going to get a blood transcript. Recorded. Oh, how about that? And I don't know if you can do Hank, but if you can give Hank a swing. I feel terrible because I was going to say, I don't like this game. I'm taking my ball and I'm just going to stay here. Hank, you want to help me? So I can do Hank, too. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. That's the hard part about this game. I'm going to answer them and is a futurist who cares a lot about positive cartography. And he sort of every decade kind of there's a phrase that characterizes his work, but he's involved. He's been involved in several future centers and kind of global futures networks, works a lot with Leif Ed Benson and he and Leif and I have a standing call early Mondays. And the positive cartography thing resonates really nicely with Open Global Mind and the stuff that we're doing here. So we've been trying to find different kinds of overlaps because positive thinking in a dire situation is likely going to be a good thing. Hank, let me let me know how many things I missed, but I'm sure I missed a lot. Well, I think for this game that that's enough anyway. And that leaves me to talk about Pete and introduce Pete. Pete is the evil genius of technology. Oh my God, so good. He knows so much more about technology and than I do because I can't even find the words to describe it. He is working with setting up a massive wiki. He loves programs like Obsidian. But I understand from the conversations of the last eight or nine months, he's so eager to try new things that if anyone suggests something new, he'll immediately look it up on somewhere on internet, post a link to it and have mastered it in the chat and have mastered it by the next time we meet. How's that? And if the camera, if the framework of pan back, you'd see that underneath his hands are like. Thank you. I apologize a little bit for bringing that game up. Some of us have kind of an unfair advantage. We know more about folks than other people. I have a, but on the other hand, it's a good exercise, I think, and kind of friendliness that it didn't explode. I have another one. Maybe we should try real quick, which is a little bit less unfair, which is. We ask each other a question. So each person gets to answer a question from somebody else. So I'll go first. Truth or dare. I don't think so. Michael, what, what brings you here today? I am Michael from the call. Michael Robbins. Jerry. I were emailing last night. I'm really struggling. I, you know, six years of exploration has also been six years of failure. And, you know, I feel like I'm out of time, out of money, out of energy, and, and I need help. And your co-founder recently had a crisis in the family. I'm forgetting exactly what happened. Her father. Her father was an accident and died. And, you know, it's, you know, just because of all the, you know, all the challenges, like the two of us are even having problems communicating, much less communicating this to, to anyone else. We get the great thing is that, you know, this big complicated, you know, draws right from this. The whole other side to it is going to feel the love of Lapogos. People have, you know, we've been, we've been able to talk to people who understand bits and pieces of it. And, and everyone who sees it is like, yes, like this piece makes sense. You know, we have to do this. You're right. Or you know, here's some other ideas, like, but, but there's nobody who really can. You're not alone anymore, partly because we've been on that journey together for this whole thing. I don't know how much it overlaps with your quest, but that's what we've been chewing on here since the beginning of lockdown, actually. Can you talk a little bit about the technical aspect that will come back to it? I think you want to do a round like Peaches said, which would be interesting, but can you talk for a moment about the technical aspects of bit lattice and what brought you here about that? Yeah. If you're familiar with Moe's surgery for skin cancer, if you're not, it's where they put up basal skill carcinoma and slice a layer and look under the microscope. Is there still cancer there? Okay. We need to dig deeper. Is there still cancer? We need to dig deeper. If we're going to build a platform, we have to go down to bedrock, and this bedrock is not just on the technology side, it's on the human network side, and so bit lattice has been the evolution of my 18-month quest on distributed ledger technology that started off with Kira Finlow-Bates and Linda Gatz of the Blockchain Chamber of Commerce and a number of other, Charlie Northrop, if anyone knows, Charlie, who was the founder of e-commerce and has developed solutions on self-sovereign identity, Michael Darden, he was just a whole litany of people, and I finally got to Hedera, Hedera hashgraph, and really excited about it. I'll post links to all of this in the chat. Got to Hedera. It's a consensus ledger, it's a consensus algorithm. The transactional costs, both financial and environmental, are less than what we see on the Visa network, and they launched a billion-dollar foundation, but it's still, you know, it's still OPP, it's still other people's platforms, you know, they have a governance council and, you know, all the things that you want from a technology company, right? But, you know, transparency and ethics and explainability aren't enough to build democracy. I mean, this is, you know, this is the Jedi Council, right? This is the, you know, the well-meaning WC-3, the standards bodies. This is not how we build something from the bottom up. And so then I got introduced to a fellow named Subbu Joyce, who was at Hedera and left and built from the ground up a platform called Autograph, and it's a triple ledger, you know, distributed system built in many of the same ways as Hedera, but still, you know, like my, where I've gotten to is that we can't just build a solution for a human network. We have to build it with them. They have to understand it. They have to trust it. It has to be integrated with the human network in order for these, you know, these arches to come up and meet each other. I have a visual that I will share on this about these three pillars. And then, you know, in a conversation just like three days ago, you know, I started engaging with the anonymous, you know, genius, precise, on-the-spectrum inventor of BitLattice, and I'll share a couple of links on that. And I finally saw something like that, oh gosh, this is where we can start. Like we need a different starting point. And so that's where we are with BitLattice. I've been engaging in conversation with them, and you know, they've, and I just, you know, I'm pronouns minor, eschee of gender fluid. I'm using them to describe somebody who's, you know, I don't know their gender. So they, you know, they're genius. We've been talking, there's some things I disagree with, but need to explain. But I think that BitLattice could be that bedrock on a ledger side. And in fact, what we're calling our ledger initiative is ledger, L-E-J-E-R, ledger for equality, sorry, ledger for equity, justice, and economic rights, because it becomes more than just a distributed ledger for an education system, a learning system, it really, it's how do we look at a different kind of value exchange model. My work for a long time has been on blended value initiatives, and, you know, social return on investment analysis and those things. And then, you know, if we are able to build ledger, then on top of that, what evolves is what we're calling Daphne, and Daphne is the knowledge network. It comes from the Greek myth of Apollo and Daphne, where Daphne was transformed into a laurel tree to escape the lustful pursuits of Apollo. But Daphne stands for distributed application, human network exchange. And it becomes, you know, sort of the ecosystem. That's, you know, this Daphne quest is where I ended up, I think, Jerry, where you're in my conversation started, looking at knowledge network and some of those things. Yep. Thanks, Michael. That's a nice background for the different moving parts, and we can come back to it, but you get to ask anybody you want the question right now. Ah, hmm, let's turn into a game show. It's kind of cool. Yeah, it is. Stacey, you know, I'm interested in games. We've been exploring things with games for change and game designers, and I've been thinking about our augmented reality work is like a Pokemon go for learning that's owned by kids, by all the kids in the neighborhood. How are you thinking about game development and like distributed application organizations? Is that too much to ask? Oh, you're on muted. So yeah, some of that is, but let me be clear, I'm more interested in what motivates people to engage. So instead of game, I think I'm really more about play and what makes people want to add to it and create. So I'm interested in what you're talking about very much so, but I don't know that I could help more than that. Yeah, then let's maybe talk about that. We have a situation right now with return to schools where people are talking about the solution to learning loss is high intensity tutoring, which brings to mind gavage, where they, you know, nice. Everybody know what a vage is forced feeding of geese to make foie gras. Yeah, and yeah, that's the opposite of play, right? And yeah. So how do you get people who are just so focused on like, Oh, drill and kill to in whatever form that is to stop and say, Hey, we gotta do this differently. You know, I've been thinking a lot about that, because I've been watching myself, and I think a lot of it has to do with where a person feels they could actually add value. If that makes any sense. I have to think more on that. I don't know that I could just answer. Yeah, no, fair enough. I just that's a big question. And just a pro foie gras, because I think you just sort of reached into your mind and pluck that out. But it's really interesting because there's a TED talk by Dan Barber about a chef who loves foie gras and hates gavage, he hates sort of the torturing of geese. So he went and bought a piece of land in Spain that was beautiful and turned it into paradise for geese. And he makes sure that lots and lots of geese come and fatten up on their own, on their own dime on his piece of territory, any harvests a few and sells off that foie gras, which has become prized among chefs. So I've used this metaphorically to say, how do you how do you create, you know, heaven for blank for programmers, for kids, for people trying to solve the world situation, which is a bit of a macabre metaphor, because you're going to harvest them. But I don't mean the harvesting of organs or people. I just mean, how do you create a place so enticing that people want to come and play in the way that Stacey is talking about. And I think a part of that is about making hard work playful and enjoyable together and but focusing on difficult things. And I'm, I'm really struck by how many trivial things we're wasting our freaking time on these days. And I would love if we spent a third of those cycles on meaningful stuff. And so there's an interesting, interesting bridge there. Yeah, there's also this, you know, this concept of abundance, right? This, and right now, you know, in our digital world, where everyone's doing their best to create artificial scarcity, because that's the economic model that people understand. Cool. So Stacey, you get to ask anybody a question or answer as you were just about to. I was just going to say something about I see recycling in there, like just reusing and recycling. Yeah, I'll just I have a question now to think of a question. Geez, my God, I'm going to go back to this answer about education. One of the things is looking at the emotional state of the learner while they're learning. That's a big deal. And that's saying that that I can speak to. Because when I'm nervous, like now, I can't think. But when I'm just doing and being and I'm in the flow, I can talk for hours. So Stacey, there's a there's a cheat for this game. Which in in good play, like, and education now that I think about it, although you have to watch with what you have to be careful with education. Cheating artfully is is not necessarily a bad thing. You know, cheating gets a bad rap and sometimes rightfully so. But art artfully bending the rules of the game so that so that something more productive happens is is not necessarily a bad thing. So the cheat. And by that, I don't mean a bad thing. I mean a good thing for this game is to ask somebody a question where you know they were where they talk about that that topic a lot already. So it's it's a way to so for this game, I think of it as not a way for me to query other people and put them on the spot or learn something I've always wanted to know, but rather for people who are new in the space to hear the things that we always talk about. And you'll you'll ask you can ask somebody a question where you've heard this you've heard their story a bunch of times already. But you know that they can tell the story really well. And then maybe that's the question that you ask. So you see, you just you just pointed out saying for me now I know what the goal is. I think the reason it was hard to do it is I was given a task to ask a question, but I'm not really sure in what direction I'm trying to throw the stone. Yep. Yep. What is the what is the 15th prime of 12 or something is like what? And so a question that you might ask is like, since we just did a round of intros, it's like, so Hank, tell us more about positive cartography, which would be kind of a layup for Hank, because you can you can push that button Hank can go. Was that the real question or just an example? I'll use that. I'll take it. That's my cheat. I'm actually say it, Stacy. Actually, I don't even know what he just said. Can you tell us more about positive cartography? Okay, great. Well, I'll tell you I'll tell you the tomorrow's version. Positive cartography is a way to encourage and inspire people to really think about the future they desire to live in and what steps they can take to help realize it. And at the moment, it's a work in progress. It's a prototype in its second phase. But I'm hoping that in the next nine months, it becomes something that's so attractive and compelling to use that will be adapted, sorry, adopted and adapted by people all over the world to help to help them discover what they really want to do in life. How's that? Very aspiration, no doubt. Hank, it sounds a bit like, like motivational interviewing, you know, from, I'm on the, I also happen to be on the journey of recovery from, from, you know, addiction and, you know, it's we're addicted to a certain way of thinking and, you know, is this who we are, is this who we want to be in the mirror? What are we doing? Where are we heading? I, I've been, I dug in last night into aviation graveyard spirals and the physics behind that and instrument flight readings. And, you know, it's, it happens when people are flying by the seat of their pants. And, you know, it's, you look at the horizons, you look at your instruments and that's what, that's what gets you out. We are collectively in a trauma fueled graveyard spiral now. Totally. That's, that's very interesting. I'm not familiar with motivational interview and I'll, I'll try to learn more about it. The, the, it could be very similar. The prototypes for positive cartography at the moment involve people who join a session because they know me or they know someone in the network who's joining it, but they're not a real community. And ideally it's being developed for communities to work to find out together what they want because I think if anything's going to change in the world, it's not going to be just individuals doing it in their own ad hoc ways, but communities doing the things that are important to the communities together. So it might be very, very interesting to, to have a look what this motivational, motivational, interviewing, interviewing is. Yeah, thank you. Ah, okay, I have a question. I have a question. I have a question. Well, okay, let's, let's, let's throw as they say in Dutch, I live in the Netherlands. As they say in Dutch, let's throw the rooster in the, the, the henhouse. Jerry, Jerry, if you had a magic wand, and you had 30 seconds to decide which of all the ambitions and aspirational ideas that you've been discussing with this group in the last year or more, you could realize tomorrow, which would that be? Does the wish include changing people's hearts or does the wish just include like putting things in motion? Because if it's changing, I know if it's changing people's hearts, it's like, I would cause, I would cause some mechanism to, to help like half the world's population learn to design from trust and to redesign all of our institutions organically from, from wherever they are in whatever way they are, because that would solve a whole bunch of issues that would just bubble up and bubble down and go all over the place. So, so I'll put a link to design from trust on that in the chat, but I would do that. Thanks for the question. Good question. Um, Mr. Grossman, since we have two Michaels. What's the thing that excites you most about the possibilities for the people who are trying to serve with the company you have started and other neighboring ventures or ideas? It's interesting because it, it, there's a way in which it ties in with the, the quote that, that I heard, you know, probably not exactly correctly from, from the other Michael that we were just exchanging about it in chat. Um, the thing that excites me most is the idea that everyone, well, everyone is a tall order, but as many people as possible and a growing number of people have, have informationally a view of their own instruments and a sense of control of what they're, what, what they see, you know, being able to filter out the noise, what they save and sort of make a part of them and what they share and with whom, um, you know, setting up mechanics for people to have that sense of control and focus over what they do and who they do it with and, and, you know, who permeates their, their field of focus. Um, just that idea seems so grounding and important to me that that's, that's the thing that excites me most, I think. Um, cool. Thank you. And it's interesting also how the, sounds like sort of a cockpit view of information in the sense that, uh, resonates. Yeah, you wouldn't want to, want to be a pilot trying to, um, you know, pilot your plane by trying to pick out the relevant data from a, uh, feed that was trying to hold your attention. That wouldn't be good. Um, they were having trouble with, with, uh, navy pilots landing on aircraft carriers at night as many years ago when this was a new thing. And they realized that the navy pilots were so freaking worried about landing on a little postage stamp in the middle of the ocean and otherwise dying that they were looking at the, at the, at the aircraft carrier and fixating on it. And then the sort of negative spiral happened, but also the, the image of the aircraft carrier was imprinting on their retinas so that as they looked around, they were disoriented that the image was moving with them instead of the actual carrier. So they had to train them to look away and glance back, uh, on their, on their approach and figure out, you know, orient themselves better and differently. Yeah, Jerry, interesting. My father was a F4 fighter pilot, um, and flew the last squadron of the F4s built the navy. Um, they had, um, you know, the, the first with look at lock on sighting and had a early heads up display. And so I think a lot about that. And I think about like, like that was augmented reality, right? What, what, what's the power of augmented reality? Give us that information in context, um, in our communities. Yep. Yep. Well, that. And, and we have target fixation in lots of different ways, metaphorically in our lives. So I think that the, you know, the whole flying lessons broadens out nicely into, into the rest of our lives. Michael, you want to ask a question or something else? Oh, please, Stacy, jump in. I wanted to ask more currents of the same question that Hank asked you, Jerry, which is, if you could, you know, in 30 seconds, what would be the thing that you would like to see come into realization? Going to run out of fingers really soon. Can you expand on that? Peace in the Middle East. No work. So this is just your, your wish list for, for global harmony in some sense. So it's interesting that Mark should mention peace as part of this pathway embedded is my work in peace studies and conflict resolution. And, you know, it's, it's how do we create a pathway from conflict to peace? Because that's what we're experiencing now. And so, and you know, I've a very close Palestinian friend who we talk about this quite a bit. You know, there's the Arvinger Institute's work, if you're not familiar with them, which came out of Middle East conflict is, is work that Cecily and I have been turning to, we turned to last week. So, you know, it is, it is related. Mark, do you want to ask anybody a question? Hi, Stacey. Thanks for that question. Let's see. Has anybody not been asked a question? I don't, I have. Pete has not been asked a question. Pete, this is like the Oracle of Delphi, not him having been asked a question a little bit. What's your favorite color? It used to be blue when I was a kid. And now I don't really have a favorite color. I sometimes contemplate about that. So I like, I like the fact that colors exist, but I'm not particularly attracted to one color. Thank you. I asked that. My best answer that I got was the color of water, which I had never thought of before. It's like an incredible answer. But thank you. The answer to the question, why is the sky blue and why is water blue, is like freaking fascinating because they're not, neither of them is naturally actually blue. It's all about molecular reactions and light and all that kind of stuff. And I, I know nothing about the physics of it, but it's just like fascinating. I'm going to jump in just because the way things worked, I didn't get to ask a question because Stacey asked Mark, the question from Hank, when I would have asked my question. So I'll throw out a question for Michael, who I don't think has gotten a question. Have you? Or did you? Did we start with you? Yeah, I think it started with me. I don't think I got a question. Okay. Then never mind. I'm good. No, no. Yeah, maybe I asked the first question. I lost track. Sticular navigation? Okay. I'm surprised you haven't heard that about that, right? Sticular navigation. I like that term. It's very literal. Yeah, it is literal. And I think about like, with augmented reality, right? Are we going to have just Sticular navigation, right? When someone says, call me, they're like, you know, call me. Or like, this is the sign for texting. Like, what's going to be when we're talking about augmented reality? Like, do this? Yeah, augment me. Okay. So we've gone through three quarters of our time together. And I'd love to do a brief conversation either about Bitlattas or about some other aspect of building OGM sort of stuff. And I do like just Sticular navigation. And the gesture interfaces, the original interface was the point and grunt interface. I heard someone say long and go, which I really liked. What was the first time, Jerry? Bitlattas, which is partly what brought Michael into this conversation, because he pinged me yesterday about conversations he's having with a person named hybrid or hybrid. I don't know exactly how to pronounce it. And is working with a blockchain alternative named Bit, whose research is in this blockchain alternative called Bitlattas, as a distributed ledger technology. And then lots of different DLTs distributed ledger technologies. And so that was part of the question. And now that we've got a bit of a gathering of geeks, I thought maybe we'd go back into the topic for a little bit. And before we escape testosterone poisoning, one of my beliefs is that most of the world's problems are caused by TMR, which is probably politically incorrect these days, but TMR is testosterone-induced mental retardation. This goes back a long ways. Also, I mean, think about this. What are the axes that we, what are the things that induce aggression? And I've been digging into Curtin's adaption, adaption innovation continuum. I'll put some things in the chat on that. But it looks, it's a framework, sort of psychometric framework that I've been exploring deeply over the last couple of months. And it's the reason why marketers say new and improved, that some people want new and some people want improved. And that's hilarious. Yeah. And it's, you know, I'll put more in. It's really interesting. I think it's also instructive, not just from like a descriptive, but from an actionable perspective, like in a world where people are feeling out of control, where people are feeling, I've talked about this pandemic of powerlessness. How are they responding differently? We can say there's the male-female access, which as someone who believes gender is a construct, I'm not really fixated on that. But this adaption innovation thing, I think, is really interesting access for looking at, you know, how we, how people respond to difficult situations. Thank you. I'd forgotten I'd ever seen that. And so it's interesting to sort of rediscover that in my brain and something else we can do. And whatever links you put, it'll be interesting. Go ahead, Michael. I'm just very curious about that concept of the idea, and I may be misinterpreting you, Michael, but the notion that there are two desirable things, that thing we've never seen before, that's the magic bullet that's going to solve everything in a way that nobody else ever has. And that thing with deep roots in all the things that have come before it, that is a perfection of something that people have been working toward that's, you know, built on the shoulders of everyone. And once the first is kind of messianic, and I feel like you see a lot of it in the tech world of, I've got this thing, nobody's ever thought of it. And so many of us are trying to, like, pull the threads together, which is much, much harder in a way, and also is fraught with the, yeah, well, but this was, there are people in the past who have thought some good things, but do we want to build on the shoulders of people who we now look at, questioningly, because of their white male European-ness or, you know, they're just, both are fraught. Like, for one or the other, it's just interesting. No, and, you know, it's that, and technology, you know, is, and, you know, adaption and innovation is distributed on a normal curve. I am, as I imagine many of you are, like, you know, two plus standard deviations from the mean on the innovative side, but I've spent my career working in those adaptive neighborhoods and situations and systems. And our education systems are, are built for adaption, right? They're actually built to help people adapt to the world as it exists. Meanwhile, you know, technology is racing ahead. And so, like the response to trauma, right, you know, it's just, let's do disruptive innovation. Education is like, screw you, we are disrupted enough. Thank you. Right. And so where does that leave us? Crypto, right? You know, I've been calling crypto Kudzu. It's a non-native invasive species. I mean, DeFi is the future, but like decentralized monetary policy is a, it's a ticking time bomb. You know, it is, you know, it's pretending to be democratic. It's pretending to be centralized. It's Alitas. It's autocratic. All these horrible things. We can fix it, but we have to do it with people and not for them, right? Artificial intelligence. We're seeing that same thing, right? AI racing ahead instead of building it with, you know, cognitive neural networks. It's this, it's this separation. It's rocket ships and bridges. Right. And, you know, during the pandemic, we see billionaire space parents going to space powered by our data and their rocket ships. Meanwhile, you know, education standing the cliff, looking over saying, you know, bye. Sorry. How do we get there? I love that comparison. Thank you, Michael. The question of the difference in actual knowing how to do something and knowing how to organize to do something, we know how to go to Mars. We don't know how to fix the elementary school system in America. It's such a different kind of problem. And why I would make everybody learn design from trust and implement it is that it would actually flip the education system, among other things. So trust. Let's just put a pin in that word and come back. Sorry to interrupt, Mark. Okay. I'm asked, can I ask you to expand on that, Jerry? Because I'm unfamiliar with why that work or. Oh, sure. So there's a nice story here. I got radicalized on this 25 years ago when Doc Searles mailed me in the physical mail, an issue of The Sun. I'm pretty sure it's physical mail. The Sun was a reader contributed journal and it had an essay and it called The Six Lessons School Teacher. Yeah, I used to, yeah. And the Six Lessons School Teacher by John Taylor Gatto says, nominally, I'm your high school English teacher. Let me show you what I'm actually teaching your children. I'm teaching them that they're how to conform little machines in the cog that I am God in the classroom. All these things about what became known as the hidden curriculum of schooling. He was a big advocate of unschooling. Right. So I started reading, looking up on schooling and diving into that and realizing that we don't trust kids to be curious. We don't trust kids to learn. We don't trust anybody in the system. So we build a coercive system that forces every kid into a classroom that's 20 to 50 kids big with kids that happened to have been born within six months of each other. We create scarcity at every turn in the educational system because of the lack of trust, because there's so many kids and there's so much to learn. And oh my God, the only way you're going to actually get that done is through these coercive practices to force everybody into boxes to then march in lockstep. So we teach everybody more or less. And luckily there's lots of experimentation now with other things. But if you sort of trusted the system and then figured out how to, there's always going to be breaches of trust, always, always, always. But if you start with trust and design that system and scaffold learners of any age to go learn shit and then figure out how to have sages at the side available who say, you know, it smells like you're going to want to learn this thing over here and this thing over there. Would you consider that? Because otherwise people don't learn, they don't know what they need, but they don't know what they don't know. So, you know, we need mirrors and all that. But we could redesign the entire educational system if we started from trust. And then you can lather rinse repeat that on every sector of the human economy and activity. And that's my thesis with design from trust. And if you go to design from trust, you'll see a couple of videos. And if I could wave a magic wand, I would teach everybody that and help them implement it. Because everything else I'm doing with mind mapping and whatever else is nice to have, but doesn't change anybody's mind, really. Cool. Yeah. Sudbury schools, unschooling. Unschooling is a lousy, lousy term because it's a negative. Self-directed education is a nicer term. There's a bunch of other ways of looking at this. But I got radicalized on that. And then, sorry, and then that opened me up to the idea that, oh, wait a minute, this is really about trust. And once you have a little taste of this trust thing, so the reason I use Wikipedia as an example a lot is that when people realize that Wikipedia was designed from trust, they have this little light bulb go off in their head. And they're like, oh, shit, that's interesting. It sounds impossible and it works. And I think they have this little feeling of how do I get more of that? But they don't know what other institutions have this little dynamic in common with Wikipedia. And there's tons. I have thoughts called examples of design from trust in my brain that I can share out. But there's tons of what I discovered in sector after sector, after sector, after sector, after sector. So Hans Mondermann traffic calming in Holland, who basically says, hey, if you redesign your intersections, so the drivers, pedestrians, drivers, and bicyclists and motorcyclists need to make eye contact or they'll kill each other going through the intersection, which is an act of trust. You actually get the same throughput and a much safer intersection. The accident rate goes down because people actually had to pace themselves to make their way through, et cetera, et cetera. And then I've been, I've been finding examples of this and how it works in the world for 25 years with a couple of distractions along the way. And totally happy to riff endlessly on this in different ways. Would actually like to write a book about this. Would at this point love to have an experimental book that is made up of nuggets that are playlists, that are that are chapters in a playlist that are output by the basically flexible and writing environment that Pete is prototyping. And one reason why I might in fact be interested in shifting over to obsidian to wrap like four previous conversations together is that it might be an interesting place to play with these theses, which sounds so much like feces, it's a word I hate to use. But to play with these theses and, you know, in the open and create artifacts that people recognize, namely like books and podcasts out of out of the mess of ideas. Other than that, I got nothing. So it's interesting that we're talking about design from trust because I was going to wait till the weaving the world call to bring this up. But you keep talking about the secondary project. And I was going to say, you know, we kind of touched on it a little bit, but the idea of starting a production company, but designing it from trust, and just putting it to get bringing in people that are working in that field and sort of simulate a company that would be doing the podcast, but maybe another podcast and then talking about again, designing it. So I can't even tell you how it would work because it would be about the design. And we've together a couple other things. Michael's here because he's talking about bit lattice, the creator of bit lattice published a post about trust that he put in the chat a little while ago so we can scroll back and find it, which starts with Hey, these block tiny things are known as trustless systems. And the hybrid is looking to create something that completely doesn't need human trust. I think I might be misrepresenting here. Yes. And that's what they said. The piece that's missing from that where I will take issue in a careful follow up conversation because when I haven't been precise, it's been brutal. That it's not about it's the people trusting their instruments, right? It's about pilots trusting their instruments. People have, yes, so bit lattice created so that people don't have to trust each other, but people still have to trust bit lattice. And so what are the ways that we get people to do that, right? And we're trusting algorithms, right? It's not that Bitcoin and blockchain are trustless. We're trusting all the algorithms that some mysterious person named Satoshi dropped on us. Right. And the best way to trust it is to be part of creating it, but there are other ways to trust it. Agreed. Which is part of this collaborative, playful generation of stuff. Pete. Michael Robbins. I find I'm a little frustrated with bit lattice because I went to the website, read the technical overview and didn't find any technical overview part. It doesn't say how it works. It just says what you could do with it and why you do it and things like that. So for better or for worse, I love that Jerry thinks that I'm smart enough to know about blockchain and math and stuff like that. I'm actually crappy at math. So we'd end up having the thing that I'm wishing I found is something that I actually probably couldn't read very well because it would be a lot of math and stuff like that. But just a, you know, just a kind of feedback up the chain. I wish I knew more about bit lattice. I don't know very much about it and I can't find much about it and I'm pretty good at finding stuff. And part of this is like our small test on stuff because Pete and I and several others here have seen a lot of software. I am not a geek or a programmer. Pete actually is like a certified card carrier. But there's sometimes you sort of see a project and you're like, oh, I totally get this and you can leap into it. And sometimes you're like, wait, wait, what actually is happening behind the curtain? So I think we, I think we haven't gotten to the conversation we could have about bit lattice, but we've started it. No, I did also just want to add you talked about like creating playlists. So that's what we did with district learning is we created learning playlists. It's focused on a particular pedagogical approach, if I can use that word called connected learning, which is, you know, more than experiential learning. And I'll share a quick thing on connected learning. But, you know, if we're looking, so as I've been like, really like, there are times when I'm just like, I'm ready to give up on trying to explain this to people and like go work on a Commune, I don't know. But, you know, it's like looking at how we could create playlists to explain all these different pieces, but you know, have people, you know, chew through the playlists, I put a link to some of those to some playlists that are really good from the National Writing Project on our LRNG platform that show you some great examples of what playlists can look like. Because I could sit and write a book. I've written, Grammarly told me that I've written 1.5 million words over the last, I don't know, 16 months, right? That's a lot of books, right? But nobody's going to read it. And it's not actionable. So like, I think the playlists may be a way to get people to think about it as from the creator seat instead of the consumer seat. And we're sort of all hunting, we're all trying to find our way to the right set of tools, the right platforms and all that. And Michael, I think your quest is like very similar to our quest. We're like, crap, what do we build this participative collaborative, collectively built environment in, so that it is trustworthy and so that it honors humans and their ability to build trust with one another, and doesn't instead alienate them from each other as I think that blockchain can do easily. The idea that the word trustless is especially with all this really disturbs me a lot. First, because it's actually not trustless, we're trusting the algorithms. But second, because the idea that money plays this role too, money alienates us from each other, because if I give you five bucks, that's the same five bucks you can spend on a burrito down the road, then I don't care, it's arms lengthen, we can forget about each other afterward. And I think we're in an environment where it would be nice if we had a little bit more stickiness. There's a, in some community around the earth, I've forgotten where it is. There's a welcoming ritual where somebody will come greet you and give you a gift that might be bread and salt or something like that. That's a habit in Germany. But then the right way to respond, the right response is not to give them back anything of equivalent value. You want to respond with something of higher or lesser value, because if you respond with something of equal value, you've eliminated the length, the length between you, you've kind of scrubbed the accounts. But by always leaving a little imbalance in what was gifted back and forth, created a relationship, right? It's really subtle. It's really, really interesting. And I love it. Because, because, you know, equivalents, which we think of as, okay, good, that was a fair exchange and now we're done, actually breaks the ties. And you want there to be a little lingering tie in the background, like, oh, yeah, yeah, that, that sort of makes that work. Cranial retentives. That's very funny, Michael. So we've gone, we've slipped over our hour. This has been super juicy and interesting. And thank you for playing on the call. Any sort of lingering thoughts or things to put on the table now? Whenever I hear the word software, I reach for my checkbook. The original quote is, of course, from, I think, Goebbels or whenever I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun. I certainly, as a software developer, do not trust software as far as I can throw it. Not that throwable. I certainly, you know, react in fear, the name of a band. And I certainly come from the punk aesthetic where humans have emotions. Boy, do they have emotions. Some of these emotions are, you know, we had this kind of play of term sacred and sacred rage was what I encountered the next day after that. In connection with Carl Polanyi. So Polanyi, I believe, yeah, sorry. Interesting. Yeah. So that kind of, you know, that's a, I don't want to not look at the dark stuff. My favorite definition of an artist is you don't have to look away. If you're an artist, if I'm an artist, that means I don't have to look away at something that somebody wants me to look away at. And I can't look away at software as a human creation and as flawed as every other human creation. And trust is something that's a variable in that equation. But yeah, I don't trust the blockchain. I don't trust Google. I don't trust the internet. You know, I'm not sure how to react to this expect from the thing I first posted in the chat. The fear song, let's have a war comes from my punk background. It's violent. And fun as hell. Where do you live, Mark? San Francisco, California. I was at a very loud old school punk show in DC last Saturday. I appreciate that, that reality check. Like, you know, look, look, look and you know, put in the earplugs, but just keep going. I almost was able to go to a band that I've known for over 30 years, the Incredible Shrinking Dickies at the Ivy Room in Albany, except it's an amazing band. There's the song Stuck in a Pagoda with Trisha Toyota. You Drive Me Ape, You Big Gorilla. You Drive Me Ape, I want to tell you. And it's this kind of music. And I didn't want to do a line of cocaine to, you know, basically drive to the East Bay and stay up all night. It's not... I can't do that anymore. Yeah. And I chose not to, probably wisely, but, you know, there's the COVID thing about indoors and, you know, singing at the top of your lungs. It couldn't be a spiritual upper. But, huh, motivation and emotion and trust. Jerry, thank you for design with trust. I mean, you said it before, but it didn't stick with me. To actually design from trust, on purpose. From trust, yeah. So you put a pin in that. And so I'll follow into that. I'll thank you and thanks, Stacy and Michael, Michael, Hank, Pete. I'll try to wake up earlier tomorrow. Awesome. Thanks, Mark. Anyone else? A wrapping word? You don't have to say it in rap? I just want to try to weave what Mark was saying or weave into what Mark was saying about the, about, well, let me, let me see if I can put this in words. I'm thinking about, I'm still thinking about the intersection between your instruments and your control of your own space and view of external space and that the sovereignty of your, and knowledge of and trust in your mind, your instruments, your, your purview, your knowledge purview is kind of a prerequisite for trust in the sense that, you know, to be able to, to be able to, to also filter out words to say, I am going to design from trust with trust through design, sorry, from, yeah, from, from trust about this with these people because I know, I feel that direction. I know myself on this. I have learned from the sharing from those other people as the other people on this and we have this avenue for trust because of it that we wouldn't, if we were, or we wouldn't come to as easily if we were in the noisy, unfiltered, non sovereign space that we too often inhabit, inhabit or are forced into. That's my thought. I did a little video about why it's from not for trust. Thank you. Yeah, Michael, what I heard you saying in there is that trusting is also trusting yourself. Which we've been taught not to do as well. Yeah, like socialization. The socialization we grow up in, which we are trained to think of as the pinnacle of civilization is really devastating. I mean, like we're socialized to become good consumers and to not trust ourselves and to not think we're ever beautiful or good enough. We have a very harsh, cruel kind of culture that we take as being this this paragon of virtue and the peak of civilization. It's like very strange. I also just want to add, Jerry, when you're giving that example of when the people slowed down that there's more to that. It's also the eye contact. It's not just that they slowed down. That caused the less, you know, it's having to look at somebody. Yep. Yep. That's right. So on the design from trust site, you'll find an essay called the two oh shits, which I really like. And it's basically there's checkable responses when a human meets a system designed from trust. And I'll plot spoiler my apologies leave now if you don't want to have this spoil for you. But the first oh shit is oh shit, this is impossible. This couldn't possibly work. It's like, what do you mean any idiot on earth can change any page on Wikipedia? What fool had that idea? What do you mean you're taking away stop lights and traffic lights and that somehow is going to make the traffic better? What idiot did that? And then you go through it and you realize, oh shit, the second oh shit is oh shit, this is working. How do I get more of this? Like, wow, that's insane. Like this really works. Cool. Well, gentle friends, I think maybe time to wrap this call. This club meets regularly on Tuesday mornings. Michael, thank you for joining us. Thanks for taking up the invite. And yeah, more soon. Yeah. Well, rugby like rugby is a controlled brawl, right? They don't do the pads and helmets is like insane what happens on a rugby field. I remember there was a bumper sticker wound in my in my undergrad give blood play rugby. So it's I guess it's not that non violent after all. No, yeah. It's it's pretty damn violent. I've been in the middle of that. Yep. I did some work in Australia in 2016 and became a fan of the all blacks. So one of my guilty pleasures is watching all blacks on YouTube. Yeah. And I've also then become a fan of a hawker. So just just so everybody knows like when I pass part of my instructions are I'd love there to be a hawker at my whatever, even a virtual and be fine. Rohan Light, who I think I may have connected with Jerry in Wellington, New Zealand, would be a marvelous participant in this discussion as well. I know we don't want to but I'll I'll let me just let's start by me putting his his info on the chat. He and I have been talking for months and just amazing a lot about ownership and Indigenous societies talking about first Americans and the Maori. Okay, that sounds beautiful. And I don't think I don't remember his name. So I'm not I'm not sure you've mentioned him. Yeah, I'm okay. Let me just sorry quickly here. Yeah, thanks. That's perfect. See you, Stacey. I'm going to listen in the background. Rohan Light, thank you. Fabulous. And and all that those ways of thinking about ownership differently and about trust differently are essential to this place we're moving into. And one of the things that scares me a lot is that so much of the energy of this place we're moving into is Mark Zuckerberg's vision of the metaverse is Satoshi's vision of cryptocurrencies and blockchains is about trustlessness is about a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't feel connected in the ways that I feel like it needs to be. So I'm I'm wondering who's actually doing the connecting. One of the reasons I like Arthur Brock and Holochain is that some of the relationship sort of factors into how Holochain stores and remembers stuff, which I like. Oh, cool. Thank you. Hakkas are beautiful. Hakkas are like moving. It's an honor to receive a haka. Yeah. So thanks, everybody. Have great days. Thanks for starting yourself with such fun, Pete. Really appreciate it.