 man, Stan Osterman here coming to you live and direct from the mighty mighty megalopolis of Kailua on the windward side of Oahu where it's typical spring type weather a little bit of rain here and there but perfect for visitors to come over and spend money so hey get on the airplane and come see us sometime we could use we could use the the financial help anyway this is part three of a three-part series that we're doing based on sustainable energy Hawaii's forum on geothermal and it they've had two two parts to this forum now the first part was about three weeks ago and then they had the second part this past Saturday and it was done really well I thought the first part was really laying the fundamentals of the technology and the economics and the foundations of energy overall and the challenges that we have trying to manage you know energy not just grid energy but transportation energy and looking at food as another type of energy that we don't really talk about when we talk about clean energy so the the first forum and the first part of the videos that we we showed talked about the technology and then last Saturday they had another forum where they they looked at the cultural side they talked to local Hawaiian cultural experts and people who who really have their their finger on the pulse of and living through the traditions of the Hawaiian nation and the Hawaiian people from long ago and it was good to hear that especially for those of us in the energy world in Hawaii because that part of the discussion is oftentimes set aside until after the fact and it turns into a problem because things are overlooked things promises are made and not kept and so I thought it was great that they brought in some folks to talk about what was really needed from the from the Hawaiian side of the picture if we're going to really consider geothermal so today what we're going to do is we're going to look at the last part of the educational piece which one of our guests Peter Stern like to put together and it kind of wraps up the discussion on geothermal and then I'd like to talk to Peter and Richard Ha again they were on the last two weeks as well and we'll talk a little bit about this most recent forum and and kind of put a bow on this picture of geothermal potential for Hawaii so if we could go ahead and and roll with the the video we'll get that started then we'll come back to Peter and Richard modern energy 101 at sustainable energy Hawaii we're convinced the time for long-term thinking is now we believe our future energy needs must be viewed not just from a climate mitigation perspective but also from that of local resilience sustainability and from one spanning a multi-generational time frame to that end we see a rare indigenous essentially limitless source of heat one our community could choose to respectfully and responsibly transform long-term into usable modern energy logistically that source of heat doesn't need to be imported it doesn't have to be purchased from a global oil company it doesn't emit carbon into the atmosphere its systems construction uses largely common base metals in its design and this heat exists under the very islands on which we make our homes our geothermal energy supply being constant means the price for the heated offers won't change over time this is where we're convinced that our indigenous steady state geothermal resource can make a real difference to our lives long-term this could also be the means to support the production of affordable green hydrogen and jumpstart a new local industry every industrialized nation around the world is pursuing the production of green hydrogen it can serve as a replacement for many functions battery power cannot satisfy efficiently that includes powering heavy machinery ocean-going freighters and even high-capacity airships this indicates that the export market for affordable green hydrogen has great potential if it can be produced at scale the benefits of hydrogen are many it's another way to store electricity like we do with batteries but in greater volumes and for longer periods of time producing affordable hydrogen has the potential to support local production of nitrogen rich agricultural ammonia a necessary ingredient for successful productive farming it's also a viable quality source for generating high temperature industrial heat with access to that heat we have the potential to process basalt at scale for local building materials and other products for export unlike solar or wind geothermal energy is a firm 24 7365 power source that doesn't require backup storage it has a smaller physical footprint per generated gigawatt hour than either solar or wind farms we believe to properly explore the benefits geothermal power might offer it will take those in our community all of whom have a stake in the decisions being made for us today to collectively voice how we want to live and what we want to leave for future generations the geothermal conditions that exist here especially on hawaii island are very special and very rare we are incredibly lucky to have this amazing resource available when the rest of the world is looking for long-term energy solutions to mahalo that was kind of the the wrap-up of the educational part of the first forum that Sustainable Energy why did and it kind of touched on all the different aspects that are in play here but it focuses on the the multi-generational benefits to everyone and I think that's really the critical point that we have to focus on as Simon Sinek says you know or Cully start with the end in mind what do you want it to look like a hundred years from now what do you want it to look like for all the people is it a good idea and too many times and you've heard this on my show a lot of you if you watch me I talk about critical analysis there probably is no perfect solution to everything but if you do good critical analysis you get the best solution for a vast majority of the people with what you have and if you have to mitigate something here there it's really relatively minor whereas I think as a as a as a world we kind of jumped into fossil fuel because it was a cheap quick easy solution and it was something that was available and we did it and now here we are a hundred years later trying to mitigate the major problems with it and try and do it on a global scale and it's a real real big challenge another thing that's important about the video is and that peter did is it's it talks about how big this transition is you know for to get away from fossil fuels and go to renewable I don't think most people realize the scale and I don't think you could put enough solar and wind on the islands to generate all the power that we need for transportation and grid and agriculture right now so it's a it's a tough problem that we have to solve and the sustainable energy hawaii folks have looked at different solutions and combinations and an answer is in hydroelectric some geothermal some solar maybe some wind and put it all together and come up with a good solution that's survivable in a disaster and takes care of everybody so peter and richard welcome back to the show I'm glad to have you guys on richard looks like he's kind of tired today maybe we overdid him overdid him with the forums but so richard you know when you when you look at this the whole program that you put together you know how would you summarize the focus of what your effort is in sustainable energy hawaii but you know what we did was we took what was expected which is a scientific point of view but we didn't just stop there what we did was we we looked at the cultural side and the various different subjects that we thought we needed to have people express themselves and that's what the second geothermal webinar was about and and that was tremendously important to bring it forward the their concerns so I thought it went pretty well I did too I really liked it I thought it went it melded really well and and actually was you know when it comes to the historic cultural aspect of any big projects that we do in hawaii they always come with that hey we didn't think about this well enough I mean whether you're talking makua valley whether you're talking the super ferry whether you're talking 30 meter telescope any of these topics just the military in hawaii we always tend to put some of the important stuff last and and I like what you guys did by making sure that some of the most important stuff the historic the cultural the the local perspective and the impact of future generations was upfront the whole way through and you spent a whole seven-hour period talking about it so peter from your perspective you know you put together the technical side that that video that you narrated and and I thought that was really great could you also talk a little bit about like how last saturday's forum and focusing on the cultural side how that hits you you yeah I mean the cultural side is essential I mean we live in a in a in a relatively I mean if you look around the world we live in a in a in a very small self-contained community and the people that were here before people who look like me even though this is my home and I feel very connected to it very rightly feel invisible like like things are going on around them that involve the economy and like you said they're thought about last and given the time frame that we have to to make progress with with mitigating fossil fuels not just from a climate aspect but from availability and a price in an economic standpoint we have to we have to include everybody there are stakeholders on many many levels and each one needs to needs to be seen considered and be part of the decision making because it isn't just a select few anymore yeah you're right and I think that part of it is we have some long-standing issues you know political issues that have just been kicked down the road for too many generations and that some of these things just sit there and fester so that even when you have a good idea or you're a company with a good product and and you want to put a good something out that's good for the economy and good for creating jobs and things it can even be negative because we neglected looking at the cultural aspect looking at the you know is this good for the community so Richard as we as we go down this road to to looking at geothermal because again this is not in concrete it's not in stone you guys haven't you know broken ground on any kind of big thing in fact you're not even a company trying to do it you're this is a group of people with you know community focus in mind saying hey we've got a technology and and we think all the pieces fit so how do you how do you feel like is this a are we making any headway in trying to bring in the community and bring everybody together to really understand the technology understand the benefits understand the risks I mean having um Kalikini on from pgv put uh put a geothermal ventures to talk about the safety issues and the kind of chemicals are there on the plant you know that was a huge eye opener I think for people to just really understand you know as many aspects as as you could so it do you feel like that the sustainable energy hawaii forums and the the the direction your your group is taking is going to provide some um comfort and some good communications to start off with should geothermal ever start in in earnest in this in the state yes I think so and and what's the sustainable energy hawaii looks at is generations down the road we've kind of forgotten that the the Hawaiian culture looks down the road seven generations that feels like it's impossible but but let's take even one generation from now if we focus on one generation from now and and and we ask that question what what do you think your granddaughter will will uh or somebody born today a child born today 25 years from now which is one generation what kind of life will we be handing over to that generation and at that time will they feel like uh their ancestors which we are did a good job of it so when we when we ask that question what what what is what will life look like for future generations it takes it away from the point pointing fingers it takes it toward a look toward the future for and and when you ask the question that the changes the whole narrative and and I think you know having done this uh geothermal webinar if if that's what we're looking at what is it going to look like a generation from now or two or three or four times so let's take one generation from now somebody born today will be 25 years old in 2046 one year after we're supposed to be 100 percent renewable okay that's about the same lifespan as the and a utility scale solar that's the lifespan of solar now at that point when that child was now 25 years old and that solar up needs to be replaced what will life look look like it's probably likely that all the components the the rare metals that go into replacing that solar price will go up and is that what we really want to hand over to the next generations as compared to if we would go to geothermal and the uh the price of the heat is free and it will be free forever so so which which which we would we want what would we want to give future generations and when you look at it that way it's very very clear that geothermal is the sensible alternative it's it's now then a matter of how do we go about doing it so the first thing you got to do is is evaluate the resource so you and and we should do that for all five volcanoes on hawaii island and once you kind of see where the heat might be then you start to ask yourself is it is it safe in this particular why why would we do it here should we do it in another place you know so because if we don't do it early we might get a solar array right on top of it which wouldn't be the smart thing to do yeah so so i i think we're making a pretty good effort at it and and uh yeah i'm really enthusiastic and yes i think one of the things that people i think that they they they missed the point on is that the hawaii community is not one big homogenous you know where everybody thinks alike you know you have different groups that have different focus and different uh it was apparent in the last seminar that you know different hawaii groups and civic groups have different focus and and different flexibilities and and i thought that came out really clear so how hard is it to really get the different factions in in the cultural side in the community side just to see the picture your church is it is it a challenge or do you feel like you can help bridge that challenge because your your family grew up generations after generation in hawaii yeah so and there's a tremendous amount of mistrust here so right off the bat they're trying to figure out uh who are you uh who's speaking why are they speaking are what the question motivation and stuff like that yeah so you know when i went to the first people conference back in 2007 and i found out that the world had been using places much oil as we you know places as much as we have been trying me then i realized oh my goodness i'm the only person from hawaii here now and i'm not an engineer i'm not a scientist or anything and i gotta bring this uh a message back how what how how how will i be able to do that and and so i decided right then that i cannot invest in it because the first thing they're gonna ask how you're making money so that's how i cannot be consulting or anything like that uh and and then i also realized that i i needed to study the hawaii side and what the issues are so i i started going to kikui uh kanako or least class and i started learning and then then i started to see how those two sides actually are the same biophysical uh physical science and ecology so so that so now when we talk about it like that and and the fact that my great great great grandfather come here annoying signed the uh uh kui petition no so so um i happened to be lucky in that sense that that uh i was there so i can feel comfortable because i you know everything is about credibility and as far as i'm concerned everything about me is out in the open so so i can have this discussion pretty easily the the challenge about me you know it's it's just i happen to be in that situation yeah that's all yeah the challenge is at some point when if this ever comes to fruition there's going to be have to be investors and big business and money coming in and that's going to be the real test of how well this was put together one of the things that i was thinking of um in a not too distant past was if we do have to have a big company come in to you know actually put the money in up front to start working these issues that they should start off by building a community of houses first for future employees put in the roads and the infrastructure and subdivide lots and the you know have a plan where the people that work for the company that's building the facilities also have a stake in the house house lots and you know with a potential to eventually own those lots if they stayed with the company and you know things like that how that would work building community centers building hula halas building um hollies for canoes and and you know places where you can launch canoes and do canoeing and do cultural things before they start building the infrastructure or whatever they're building and and i don't know if that would work but do you think that would that would be a concept that we need to look at absolutely yeah that that it's not what you say it's what you do because everybody expects you know to come in invest and take and take and take the money out everybody expects that oh peter when it comes to actually making things happen um this this endeavor is actually a pretty large endeavor i mean when when we start talking about replacing all the transportation fuels and and all of the storing all the grid energy that we need whether it's in batteries or whether it's in hydrogen or whatever does the scale of that do you think the scale of that endeavor is is even imaginable to the average person um no i don't because it while i while i think i have a sense of the scale i also know i don't um you know i wanted to touch back on something that richard mentioned which was about the a generation 25 years from now and the and the potential cost for replacement which is an ongoing thing we will be competing with the rest of the planet who is also pursuing solar and wind in an attempt to replace fossil fuels and the big thing the biggest thing about our economy and how we live today is the fact that this is a global economy and and virtually everything that we consume today comes on industrial scale transportation that's powered by liquid fuels and windmills will not do that solar panels will not do that possibly hydrogen well but the reality is is that most still most of the power that we use today even electricity still comes from a feedstock a feedstock is the energy that you use to produce the heat to you know to spend the turbines to do all that stuff most of that still comes from fossil fuels and the one thing about geothermal is the cost of that heat source that is going to generate that electricity doesn't it doesn't cost anything different today than it will 100 years from now or 200 years from now we just need to maintain the mechanism that will allow that heat to be used that can be done there's a there's a geothermal plant that was started in a low tech area 19 era 1913 in in Lardarello Italy that is that's still functional so it can it doesn't it can be done low tech which means that it can last for a long time that's what we need we need we need durability and endurance the idea that systems need to be need to wholesale be replaced every 15 to you know the batteries do 15 to 25 years makes me very very nervous exactly the the scale of this is mind-boggling when you think about it and we've we've actually become accustomed to a certain lifestyle especially in the western world and if you like go visit Africa where they're chopping down trees to build fires to cook on and things like that you know we don't even think about living that way but in reality it's fossil fuel that gives us the ability to travel 100 miles in your car or more and ship like you said these huge quantities of supplies and goods across the oceans or jump in a jet and fly from here to New York and get out in New York City that that's an amazing the technology is amazing and what makes it affordable is oil which we don't make you know it's like when I hear people talk about battery technology or internal combustion engines they always leave out the part about the oil we didn't make the oil we just sucked it out of the ground you know the sun and pressure and every and you know dead vegetation have been in nature's hands for millions of years to turn that into a usable energy source and we really can't just replace that it's it's a finite quantity on this earth that's going away in fact we're past the peak already we're on the downhill side of that curve of availability of oil and we have to replace all of that for something that we're still using more and more of I mean Americans and the western civilizations are you know pretty well off a lot of the people around the world in Afghanistan and Iraq African continent and many places in Asia they don't have the standard of living that we do and so as our demand for more energy and stuff goes up our supply of oil is going down we can't keep doing what we're doing and climate change or not we just can't do it we're gonna we're gonna have to kind of temper what we can do with our energy and we're gonna have to get more realistic and share it a little bit better the part about we're using heat from from the ground it's essentially like Richard says it's it's going to be here several million years and that's more than a couple generations so it gives us a long time to look for alternative ways to replace all that energy but the bottom line is you've got to generate it and even hydrogen is not being it's not for free it's there but it you make it with electricity if it's green green hydrogen you still have to get energy to make it and on the mainland a lot of it is natural gas makes your hydrogen in california 75 of the hydrogen that they use in their cars is still from natural gas and to do it with just water and electricity means you have to have a generation source for the electricity and that's where geothermal can make the massive amounts of energy that you store the energy and hydrogen and then it fits into your transportation sector as a fuel it fits into your agricultural sector as as ammonia and fertilizer it fits into the large ship transportation and airplane transportation as fuels as well and grid storage it can be stored in tanks you know on the ground or underground in the mainland they can use salt caverns and store that energy for future use but the source of the energy that we've been depending on oil for all these years is going away and the replacement source has to be something with the same magnitude that we've been fridding away for the last 100 years and as richard points out that's the heat from inside our planet that keeps keeps on going and going and going and will for a long time so richard i'm gonna i'm gonna leave the last words to you and we'll wrap it up there okay one of the really big things about geothermal is the fact that it's completely deep uh separated from oil oil price can go up and down geothermal price is going to be the same so it'll give all the people that live here stability and you know it's really important to small businesses is struggling they cannot take the volatility and that is a really big thing that we we got to keep on telling folks if we do the more geothermal that we can put in and we have all different types of energy sources that we need to mix and match but the more geothermal we can put on board the more stable it will become that's gonna be good for us i agree and we have a lot of partners around the world new zealand iceland that are already working on these things we have engineers and and folks at the university working on horizontal drilling and the technology is getting better and better so i'd like to close up by thanking both you gentlemen for your outstanding work in the sustainable energy um hawaii forums and i hope to see more of those things and have you back on the show in the future and thanks for all the work that you do i know you're uh you're probably paying to do what you do instead of getting paid to do what you do and i i for want to want to thank you for everybody yeah all right so until next week stand the energy man signing off and we'll take care of some more energy issues with dad going i think next week aloha