 Hello. Yeah, so my name's Adam. Thank you for that illustrious introduction My pronouns are he and him Yeah, I put on gigs and other kinds of music Activity my therapist has told me to stop saying the word stuff because apparently it sounds reductive. So I'm gonna say activities and I'm a bald-headed black mixed race man with a beard And I'm gonna ask each of my panellists and fellow panellists now to to introduce themselves with their name Pronoun word describing what they do and giving a brief visual description Hello, everybody. I'm Talia. I am a singer songwriter artist I'm a black woman with shoulder-length locks and my pronouns are she her Hi, everyone, my name is Mantua man slash reyland yant You can call me Manta or Ray. I take they them pronouns or she her if you're feeling inspired and I am a Chinese mixed-race person with long brown hair and I've got some makeup on today. Oh And I'm a musician and a performing artist And good up. Good evening everyone and my name is Richard Hilton. I'm a lecturer in contemporary art here at so as I've been here about a year and I'm the son of a Jamaican father and Spanish mother And I'm a he So that's me Amazing. Thank you more Everyone I'm a Mara Spence from and she her I'm a black woman with Yeah And I'm an artist performing artist increasingly a transdisciplinary artist and a spatial practitioner and I'm overwhelmed to be here in some capacity So thank you so much Beaming alive from the midlands But I love the egg on right the con fingers. So we are thank you so much for being here We're we're really keen for this to feel as much like a conversation as we can a chat We're here to talk about the relationship between visual arts and music sound and music I Think it's really interesting for all of us that we sometimes find ourselves in well all kinds of boxes But those those two What what is visual arts? What is music? And so I wanted to kind of kick off the conversation with that and come to you Richard and hear what you think about Are there distinctions between should there be distinctions between those two things? Thank you. Thank you, Adam. And thank you Casper for inviting me. It's a great opportunity to talk about a subject I was just saying to run and that a few years ago I taught a course in London on music culture identity and I'd completely forgotten I done it when I was putting this together until I'd finished it But it's a great topic and I realized I could probably do a module on it But and so and so what I wanted to do is just to show some images to just to start to introduce What this is really my kind of take obviously on this and coming from it from a more kind of historical view of Looking at the relate intersections between Visual arts and music but looking at it post partly personally, but also looking at it through and The ways in which and there's a kind of two and a four in between these disciplines and they're blowing of the disciplines And also the ways in which these things change over time and get recycled through music but also through the way artists reference and Music is one in their work. So I've just got a few slides that I wanted to show so Casper That's great. So I thought I'd start with this image here because I think when Casper asked me to talk about And this you know, I was thinking that you know for me and then probably showing my age if I look around the room I'm probably showing my age that You know records and vinyl and albums are really kind of They're something that I grew up with you know And the reason I'm showing this is because this is the first album I got in 1978 I still have it and there was something very exciting about it You know, I think it was my mum works as an office cleaner manager and one of her Supervisors for some reason went to a shop in the east then somewhere and got it and it came back in a bag and it was like this really exciting moment and There's something about the objects first of all If you think about visual arts and vision the visual aspects of the relationship between music and the album itself I don't know how many people in this room have records vinyl records Okay Okay, so so so those of you don't so there's something very much obviously They take up a lot of space because I have quite a lot of them that take up a lot of space But anyway, so I just wanted to start this image because it was like the first and I'll be clearly as well There's something about the design and when you look at kind of designers and who get you'll see in a moment Designers that get used to and to do these to make these album covers There's a kind of a whole history to that as well. So I'm Casper. Could you move on to the next? I've just got a few early slides. So just do that one first. So this is another example So is anyone seeing this album? This is an album from 1971 black Moses. And so again talking about the idea of the object So these this incredible musician produces this album, but they go to the next slide It's not just any old album. It's an album that folds out into this almost life-size figure So again, yeah, we can think about the ways in which you know The artists as well just artists are thinking about how they present themselves to an audience through their through through the packaging of their music The next slide please Casper and then this again, this is a this is an interesting story So this is the album catch of fire by the whalers released in 1973 because so this is a Zippo lighter This is a kind of enlargement of a zippo lighter. So when they made this album They it's fantastic album, you know and the way it's packaged, you know catch of fire the zippo light all this You know, it's got a picture of the whalers on the back But because of the design the little rivet there kept breaking so they had to kind of junk it and then Produce the new more conventional Alpey. So I've got one of these It was actually my stepbrothers album. I've got it and they're worth quite a lot of money now, and it's not broken So anyway, so just again this kind of just this kind of dynamics is next slide, please Casper So this is an image and so this is an image by an art American artist Charles white Incredible artists and he was very interested in this idea of his work not just being shown in galleries But reaching a big audience so he he was he was commissioned by Van Gogh to produce many album covers in the 50s And this is one of them So again, this is kind of this thing thinking through this idea of the relationships between Music and packaging and artists next slide, please and Casper of course we can jump to the 1980s and this image of of Grace Jones compilation album from 1985 by a photographer and her then her then partner Jean Paul Good And next slide, please So then we can then start to think about and this is really just to kind of throw some things thinking about the ways in which Rather than looking at this in the linear of fashion You know the ways in which and cross generation So we've got Pia Mondria on there and he's interesting jazz and how it influenced his painting in the in the 40s And he's in he's kind of influence of being in Paris and meeting jazz musicians there and And also soldiers and his interests grew in jazz and influence his work And then obviously we got Jean-Michel Basquiat who Spoke a lot and was very much influenced and very influenced by Musicians like Charlie Parker and next slide, please and Casper Thank you And then we kind of again this idea of the visual and the kind of relationship things that might be hidden from us You know that again resonates So we've got this very famous iconic image of from the Second World War of American soldiers putting the flag there and the how it's been reinterpreted by Funkadelic in the 70s but interpreted in a in a particular way using the The the the Marcus Garvey Pan-Africanist flag here So next slide, please and then we've got David Hammond's American artist producing His version of the stars and stripes that incorporates the Pan-Africanist flag And talking of flags next five, please We've got Faith Ringgoals flag for the moon Produced in 1969, but then we can also think of this album first album. I think it is Jill Scott Herron Whitey on the Moon. So again, this is kind of dialogue That we can see the ways in which these things can be kind of hidden from us in terms of the relationship How artists are listening to music and you know vice versa in many respects as well And talk and then and then we get that next slide. Thank you. And then This one this because Gustav Metzger and very important and German British artists who died not long ago and the age in his 90s about 94 and he was a kind of The inventive you like or the innovator of auto-destructive arts And this is one of his famous performances on the south bank where he used hydrochloric acid to burn these sheets and purportedly one of the influences for The guitarists from the who for smashing his guitar peak towns in here from 1967 So again, you know this this kind of relationship And next slide, please Casper So and then music and in Britain, you know We can think of reggae and reggae from the 70s and 80s kind of conscious reggae and its influence on artists and It's anyone that is anyone familiar with? Is anyone familiar with this song? Um by Johnny Osborne 13 dead nothing said It's anyone familiar. So the next slide, please Casper then from 1982 British artist Keith Piper produced this work um And it was about the the fire new crossfire in 1981 which killed 13 house fire of house party and there was a fire and 13 and teenagers died And this sparked one of the biggest um the biggest um of the black people's day of action in 1981 and march through london But we can see there the the the formulation with Keith Piper the kind of the first generation of british born Black artists of going to art school and the influence of reggae on their work as well So that um and then there's another image actually again the music burning spear Marcus Garvey So this is any chambers who was here a couple of weeks ago So this is one of his works from the 1980s Taking the lyrics from burning spear and using these like images these friend images of African artifacts Next slide, please Casper And we can go across the Atlantic as well. So from the 70s American art another important American artist Sengen and Goody this idea of performance and the masquerade and the spirits and um This performance this improvised performance took place on the um Freeway underneath the freeway in los angeles. Um, um Next slide, please And then we can come back to london and we can see this work and dancing impact and by the british artists Jillian wearing A where she danced for 25 minutes in this in the atrium centre in peckham with a song in her head She was dancing on to a camera. Well, obviously a camera. So there's the film. You can probably see bits of this online And then I put this one in because of the next one that follows it to the ways in which artists are also kind of Influenced what artists kind of influence or repos represent something so she went around the streets Asking people to write and know it's about as the title says signs that say what you want them to say and not signs That say what someone else wants you to say So this this is it and then we can see where perhaps that idea perhaps generated from so, you know Is this kind of like these kind of um relationships? And and this is a couple more, um Examples so we've got this album here the blues and the abstract truth from 1961 And I just want to show one more image of david hamman's work So this is a work from 1997 and it was in this museum in in couldn't in burn And I actually went to remember going to see this it was a very small entrance Very kind of diminutive space and you go in it's huge and there was nothing in any of the gallery It's very hard to photo to um copy images from this book because it's long and thin But I just took this one image So what he did was just the rooms just had things like a sheet in the corner And under the sheet was a boombox playing some music and then but he put this film on all the windows So the light would change during the course of the day And at one at some point the room was filled with blue and then this this is the last room So there's like this one he used to he He was saying yeah, well I did this piece because um, you know, and they used to always say that count on the drums You know, so it's kind of so it's like and it's a pink drum kit And it's like the last thing you see in the exhibition. So again, it's like quite playful idea about the ways in which the Musicians are referred to as well. It's kind of connection um And then just to wrap up I just wanted to um Play a little clip of this fantastic um piece I actually saw this in and it was my partly reminded me about this actually I saw this a few years ago in the art institute in chicago This is great video by an artist called collin smith who moved to chicago and she set up this Orchestra called the solar Flair orchestral marching band and it was based it was for a school in rich south high school in chicago and Obviously chicago's has this history of of music Blues etc. But it's also the the city of migration. So where Um black americans escape the brutality of the american south. They migrated in chicago's one of the cities And sun ra who this song this piece is kind of dedicated to the jazz musician He was a man of the south. He was born in alabama But he spent a time living in chicago And so she did this kind of what they call a flash mob performance where this band went into into china town And performed so he's kind of interested in intercultural um way of presenting oneself in in a different space but not in a kind of in not in a kind of Regulated form, you know with tickets and performance in a stage. So if you could just play So they're actually um performing one of um sun ra's songs So at one point during this it's absolutely raining it's raining and they're just carrying on and it's just incredible It goes on for about 10 minutes. You can see this online actually and it's a great So this is all connects again to this idea of space and the relationships between the visual and they're kind of all if you like Um and particularly someone like sun ra who used to play this song It's the kind of you know sun ra meaning sun sun, you know So this idea of space and the outer space and space within america like another way of looking at the world That we live in all the world that he lives in So um, so yeah, there's just some ideas to start off So, thank you. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you very much. I think it's yeah, it's really interesting to to get that context and think about how there's films like almost always been this interplay between Um music artists thinking about presenting their work visually and and visual artists Using music in in their practice as well. Tell me I wanted to come to you first Still asking this question about if there are distinctions between those two things You've just put out a new out incredible new album, which is available on all streams And other places. I'm sure I've seen But that's really interesting because that sort of began life in lots of different ways. I wonder if you could talk a bit about The process of yeah, the process of of earther and oh, this is earther. Well, it's me but representing earther So this album was created with almore who's a visual artist um and a writer and just a great human in general and um She came to me with the the visual identity of earther poetry And we had loads of conversations and it was like Would you be up for creating the musical world for earther? And that's how it started. So for me that process of creating an album from a visual identity from images from Stories that's kind of the first time I've done it and it was a beautiful experience actually It challenged me in many ways. I grew up in the church. So my my kind of Way of creating is always just to catch the spirit. Okay. I sit on the piano Whatever comes comes and it flows through me But this was really like bringing everything back to the narrative. Does it feel like earther? Is this part of the story just it's good and you know ours funny because she's not a musician um, but she's like That's that's not how it feels and I'm like, what's your name and this is banging? What are you talking about? She's like no, no you're taking it too much over I'm like, no, you're right. You're right. Let me get back to okay. Where are we here in the journey? And um, so that was really cool as well and also just kind of creating in the space when I started writing I had visuals like up on the projector that Al had sent me and images and just really taking the the visual identity of And kind of letting that flow through me and come through The music was um a really interesting way for me to work Super cool. And this is actually it's really good that we stopped on this picture Which is this is at the south bank center And what's really interesting about the live version of earth where it felt like They'd have it how that I mean you are very clear in because we also did a show at the Hornamere Yes, you which I loved you as you had such a clear idea of Exactly how it needed to you and I how it should look how it should feel and I wonder how Could you just speak a bit about yeah that and how that kind of comes together with the music? Definitely. I think again, so With this project out it was it's it's kind of really important that I'm in a way not tarpier on the stage like I'm Leaning into earth like I've become earth, which is why we play a lot with scale that first image is like I'm super tall people. Oh, you're tall in that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um but it's that kind of creating that otherworldly um persona and In a way earth, uh, you know, we want earth to kind of be somebody that can represent everybody um, and so for the live show it was also important that um You know again playing with scale having the choir on the plinths having me up there And kind of playing with light. So at the top um, the show starts at the top where you know, it's birth and there's light and As I move down it's like child youth adult and then going back up to elder and death and um And so oh, yeah, and here and this is also this is the album artwork um, and again like This is birth child youth adult elder death and That's actually based on me. So I stood there and did all those and Al did the lino print From those images. So every aspect of of the artwork um was considered by Al and the music um Was created in response to all of it all of those things and it's it yeah And also just feeling it being so involved with the artwork as well Like supposing for the artwork and then Al did in the lino prints, but then it feeling Oh, yeah, that's based on me, but it's not me. So it's been really interesting Working in this way and if so it feels like those are really The both the visual elements and the musical elements are it's about Exploring the same ideas on the same feet and absolutely those two different mediums. I want to if I can come to Our correspondent in the midlands. Yes come to Amara I wanted to ask you Amara The same question really how in your from your perspective. Do you see as someone who's a practicing artist, but also You know producer and space holder. How how do you feel about those? distinctions between visual arts and music thank you for this question and thank you to Previous speakers who have kind of influenced my response to this because Tariah talking about it's almost intuitive You know tapping into a spirit Is something that I'm like, yeah, let's go there I love this idea of of acknowledging that I am shape shifting and that my artistic practice is also shape shifting and I get deep doubt about meeting other Transdisciplinary artists and artists who are intentionally moving away from the binaries that we find in artistic practice in creation and in removing from those binaries in intentionally moving from those binaries, what then do we what then do we grow? And there's so much in this where I'm like I mean I started an organization in 2013 called Maya and the reason for starting it was as an artist who felt like I couldn't access opportunity in Birmingham And increasingly being forced into these binaries that felt in like misaligned to how I actually wanted to make work It was like the only way is to create your own container The only way is to is to is to build your own infrastructure And how common this is as as as artists, right? We build the infrastructure to support our creative practice And so Maya started with a very I'll say Firmly naive premise. How do we support artists like us to do what they love for a living? And it was like, you know, that's all we want to do like we just want people to be themselves and and to make however they want to make and that they should be able to survive from doing that Um, but of course what happened very quickly is you've bought up against all of the systemic things that actually stop people like us From the from being able to express ourselves in any capacity So it made total sense that we would also be forced into binaries in every capacity So I love this question because for me it reminds me that there are so many practitioners There are so many people who are wanting to go beyond the binary and also that binary for many people Stops us from even thinking that artistic practice is a pursuit that we can take You know, so many people I work in a community in Birmingham That by every, you know, traditional metric of Social injustice and environmental injustice and economic injustice This is one of the the neighborhoods that has been failed by our country And we have so many people that we say There's something really precious about being able to take an idea and give it form and give it Materiality and give it nuance and give it context and those people tend to call it survival They tend to just say like oh, I'm just surviving and I'm like, isn't that the the beauty of artists? Isn't that what we do to give ideas form to give ideas materiality and nuance? So as an artist I look at my my work and and the work that I produce and support and facilitate As can we apply that same practice of giving ideas form no matter what form rhythm materiality they take Can we rehearse freedom? Can we rehearse liberation? Can we practice that what that look like? So that's where I get really geeked out because then I'm like sometimes what we rehearse sounds choral It sounds sonic, you know, it has a sonic quality it sounds sometimes it's like it sounds like jazz improvisation And you know, if you're if you're not careful with your study jazz, you're like, yo improv like I can do that Whereas improv is like I'm going to train my ass off right so that I can improv and it's this badass But we're like, how do we do that as a collective, you know, endeavor? What does that look like? What can collective practices like theater ensembles that I'm that I've grown up in? What can that teach us about how we rehearse liberation? I'm going to stop because I'm so excited No, I'm getting off of it. Yeah Yeah, it's what it's what what you're making me think about is so I love you talking about this about rehearsing freedom And I I want to come back to you because my question What you just said is so is In this context is so it's freedom expressing and and is expressing creativity without form or without restriction without binary I think that's a that's a big part of freedom and ultimately the being able to be ourselves Safely and Is freedom and so expression of that is part of that because that you know If we have the agency and the freedom to choose how we express ourselves and that's part of it Yeah, yeah, I'm this idea of you know That the the different shapes with which our expression can take and that we allow ourselves the freedom to be intuitive To tap into spirit to really allow ourselves the capacity to do that is in itself a liberatory practice Yeah And so I ray I have to come to you next And what I think so interesting about your practices is that you've got Well, I don't you can you can explain but you've got a few You've had a few different ways in which you've expressed your creativity That have his have maybe previously been separate I know that you're looking at how you how you bring this together So I'd love to hear a bit about your reflections on what we've heard and and maybe Explain to the audience a bit about what you all the things that you do okay I feel like we're making music right now. I maybe it's because I'm sitting between everyone and I just feel so honored um So much is resonating Materializing the music through a vinyl cover Rendering the spirit Through the visual creating the spaces that we wish to inhabit All of this really resonates And I think what I can offer is I can speak to my experience Growing up within the chinese music tradition and the visual elements Of performance that I learned through that um I can talk about The performance of gender and how that discovery personally happened through visual media it happened through social media and and the screen um, and then me trying to then embody what's inside Through visual performance and then also Collective envisioning with tangram, which is a an artist collective I co-direct with alex ho who's in the audience We seek to transcend the china west divide by making music So I'll begin with what's here. I play this instrument. It's called the yangqin Also known as the chinese hammer dulcimer And As you can see The visual is important to the instrument. You have these decorations of bamboo In kind of the lattices of the stand you have Lotus made out of abalone shell decorating the box itself and on the surface what you can't see are steel strings Stretched across which I hit with bamboo mallets um The visual in chinese music extends to what we typically wear I chose something a bit more tame In this shot, but traditionally you wear these very bright and shiny red vests and Cheap haul And our teachers would teach us to perform Um Very visually they like just one detail is is they would teach us to express with our eyebrows When we're playing So it's it's always kind of been enmeshed with with with visual art But I think uh more Another way this happens in chinese music is The pieces Tend to express an image in nature a lot of chinese music is this way so Traditional pieces like purple bamboo Thunder after the drought Um spring arrives on the Qing river very different than say Western classical music where it's like opus four number three Movement five, you know Where there's this purity of like let's distill and let's remove this from the material world in a way Let's distill it to pure music in in in the chinese tradition. It's like You know, you can hear the birds chirping on the river and you can hear the water flowing in the the the gravity of the mountain So in that way visual elements were always woven into my practice And then if you move to the next slide, this is from last year Post lockdown watching drag race for the first time Stillness solitude making me realize there were parts of myself. I was not listening to And coming to terms with my gender fluidity And this was my attempt at at kind of bringing that forth. It was um My first video as manta woman who's my avatar performance persona um And this was uh kind of a response to seeing so much chaos unfold um You know through the interface of the screen and and You know seeing The coup attempt unfold on the united states capital on january 6 2021 and for a solid couple of minutes Not processing it as real So the surreal the hyper real and the real all kind of blending together um in in the digital age meet i'm trying to navigate that and and and trying to project the values of love and adaptability and Oceanic consciousness that I hope to see reflected on the other side of the screen. So this was a cover of Eurythmics here comes the rain again Um directed by my friend Emma Henry wolf who is a visual artist. That was my first experience working with a visual artist um And yeah trying to trying to render something um And then the next slide this is from our last performance our most recent performance Uh with tangram A concert called our silence is your silence Staged on the 70th anniversary of john cage's um notorious piece 433 um Which if you haven't heard of that before It was a piece where the pianist walked on stage sat at the piano and basically did nothing Performing quote-unquote silence for four minutes and 33 seconds before Leaving the stage this made a lot of waves in western contemporary music And there was a lot of inspiration from eastern philosophies Taoism's and buddhism And so this was my cover of that piece And I think there's another image basically I kind of emerged from the cage of the yangqin and step out with this mask Which was which I commissioned from damsel frau. Who's an incredible mask maker Someone who I encountered on instagram, you know very much like accepting that that's a part of reality and culture um however reluctantly um and uh, yeah kind of uh Trying to reflect Something to the audience whatever they whatever they saw in that moment The piece was called everything is music um But what was most special and this will be the last thing I say for now About this gig is that we worked with um two deaf artists to realize this concert louise stern who's a writer and filmmaker and ted evans who's a filmmaker and We learned so much through that process Taking, you know, you know, louise in the very beginning said, you know, we're not interested in talking about access We're talking about something much more fundamental and much more human But how are we communicating with each other and how are we? um Being present with each other. What is silence because for people who are deaf silence means nothing So what are you saying? You know and um We wove her writing into the performance. We had ted visually interpret the concert with his camera um live streaming picture and picture different emotive kind of abstracted Moments from the performance onto the screen for everyone to experience and that was just a very um Yeah, very very, uh Instructive and and moving experience to be a part of Amazing, thank you. I think what I saw I want to come to all of you in a minute As I said, I'm really keen for this to be a conversation with all of us. So Please start thinking of questions because I come to you really really soon But richard, I want to come back to you first so we've the conversation quite a lot of the conversation has been about um artists and creativity trying to break out side of boxes and binaries and I wondered what your thoughts were on how I guess identity and and And society in from your perspective impacts artist's ability to do that um Hmm, that's a question um, well, I think some of the examples um, I showed I think um Some artists I suppose have a visual artist have kind of in interest the music and try to kind of um use elements of it To kind of I suppose to kind of challenge the way in which space is used Gallery space is used. Um, it's I think some of the work I purposely looked back Rather than looking at the contemporary because I knew the kind of steamed company We're going to be talking about very much the contemporary. Um And I think it's interesting to look back at work and look back at work, which isn't um In a different kind of producing a different age. So even when we come to the end um The David Hammond's piece in 2019 97 that was kind of really pre-internet and a different kind of world, you know, and I think um For me, it's interesting to think about work that was produced 20 30 years ago How it exists now in the world with artists that but as as that's been to talk about Marba's been talking about in terms of this under disciplinarity And these different sorts of technologies that make Producing work not necessarily just within the gallery or or or kind of define sort of practice as a kind of that visual artists you know, so I think those things are quite um Those things are kind of quite significant in terms of contemporary practitioners who are kind of using and drawing in different sorts of disciplines Now we're kind of the kind of I suppose the kind of Delineations once were clearer in terms of artists will use Make reference to to music or um music has been this makes reference to art. Um, I think um, I'm not sure I I think that in terms of um I'm kind of interested in the ways in which um So with Colleen Smith piece that piece in a way it's kind of it's it's sort of um There's lots of things about it which aren't kind of polished So it's like the way in which it's filmed, you know And the way because of the nature of it It's like this idea of not staging something so this idea of doing something can prompt you So that in a way is something perhaps that um, it's very different nowadays because there's a lot more Ways in which to kind of present Work in a more formal way. Do you know what I mean? So this idea of just doing something that's kind of Not announced, but you just do it in a space. So those kind of things which kind of step outside of the idea of the kind of Commodity and the kind of the idea of a traditional audience So those things are kind of interesting for artists when you're making work that isn't kind of necessarily Um for a particular audience it just exists So it's a kind of different way and some of the some of the work there Maybe trying to do that. So they're even like going back to kind of like Charles White Drawing making fin commission to make work on works on album covers, you know in the 50s You know, that's not something that's kind of necessary now So at the time that this artist was doing that in the same way as the sort of flag um the um the kind of flash mob Um choir was producing something in a way that wasn't announced But it's recorded and then presented retrospectively So that's kind of for me where it can be interesting where someone's doing something. That's not sort of Telegraph or promoting in a seamless kind of way. So that's kind of interesting. Yeah Yeah, really interesting and I think audiences expectations of Of pieces of art in in whatever form Can completely alter things I think we who the audience is as well. Who is the audience and do it in a also what So we just had christine and the queens present red car at the southbank center It was either yesterday or two days I've been it's saying to towelage before it's been a full-on week. So I'm losing track of days But and they so christine and the queens like, you know in Some ways is people would think of as a pop act someone who does jules holland and gets played on radio one, but it's like very much um An interdisciplinary artist and so the the the gig that they present that he presented was a conceptual Piece that had a through line. It wasn't playing the hits like if you know christine and the queens Uh, they didn't he didn't perform tilted It was the new album played in the way in which that they wanted to and I as a programmer Was curious about how the audience might receive that are they going to expect An encore with the hits are they going to you know, and how's that going to work? But I think i'm a big believer in trusting artists and yeah, I really felt that way as well with eartha because It was you know, it's like we're going to perform it as it is I'm not going to play any of my old tracks or anything. It's just eartha That's what you're going to get and my agent was like, are you sure babe? literally And you know, I was supporting michael kiranuka as well and and it's it's a concept album It's from birth to death. That's how we're going to do it and it is nerve-wracking and actually the beginning of of The show there's a well not for the kiranuka tour, but for my own show There's like a 10 minute soundscape and a film and again That's just to get people into like just from watching gigs people go to gigs and they're chatty patties. I'm like, why are you chatting out? And um, so for me it was like I want you to come into the space And to just take a minute and hear the soundscape and see the visuals and know that we're about to go on a journey and um And again like comments like oh the soundscape's a bit long. Maybe you should just you need to just come on check out a like It's like no I actually I I want you guys To be present. I want it to feel like all right we're about to embark on a journey and I want you to come with me and that's my intention and so but you know, it is kind of scary because um, you're you're challenging Well, I'm challenging myself and also the audience's expectation of what they're going to get So good 29 seconds of the soundscape is that the soundscape? I think the soundscape's the first the first one. Do you want do you want me to play it? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Let's do that Since you were talking about it. I thought it was appropriate. Hold on a second. Oh no for sure So you get at the beginning of the show It's just a snippet of it. But yeah, you get it for 10 minutes and The when I did it at the south bank I had a choir so each choir member came on Just like every minute and just stood there people that It was cool, man. It was so cool. Yeah, I love that. But yeah, I'm just it's yeah, I think It was also really liberating to be able to um Present Arthur exactly how we wanted to um And I think it paid off you But yeah, um, and I think yeah, that's what you know Art is for me is just being able to Express myself and and hope that people the audience vibrate with it. You know, yeah I think that's the most important thing for me as an artist is that um It's honest and true and then I can if people don't like it. I'm all right, but if I'm out here trying to Create things because what's hot right now? um That's that's setting me up for failure. So yeah, absolutely I mean I I have this kind of personal philosophy that an audience's experience of live music doesn't just Start the second the band or the artist walk on stage and actually my my job and People I work with is to Bring the audience into the world of what's happening on stage From the second they find out it's happening until Well after and part of that's about setting the audience up in the right way and saying This is what you're about to experience. It's not It's not just the greatest hits show and some of those show listen like we have Oh, we love it. Yeah, we love it. This yeah I wouldn't see glad this night at that Albert Hall a couple weeks ago She's a couple weeks ago a month or so ago. It was great. She played the hits Me and auntie Audrey went and we had a lot of fun But there are other shows where it's a different thing and I think it's about finding The right way to talk about that in the moments But so I want to bring everyone else into the room with us So has has anybody got any questions or or thoughts they'd like to share? I don't Please I really liked the last clip you showed there. I thought it was really interesting Um, I was expecting to see more of that to be honest rather than a lot of talk It is a panel discussion No, no, it's fine. You can you have to get tickets with how we as next show come to the next show. It's just a little taste There's one thing is stuck in my head. I couldn't get it out because I remember That that word Transdisciplinary And I couldn't get that out of my head because I thought I know what it means, but I don't know what it means. It's one of these words that I think I know into disciplinary And I think what's the difference? And then I you talked a lot about You know Expectations of gallery expectations spectator expectations That's been the case since Bouchon So again, what's the difference that so I would that's that's you know, I know that that then you talked about The cage piece and you put it in context and I thought that was quite so I wonder is that the difference that basically you're just You're just sort of for a Sacred temporary audience. You're making references to a past Is it anything new or is it just referencing? Because again, you talk about events that are like happenings He is I was going to be confused about Why you didn't show any sort of punk album covers, which is DIY stuff And that is to me a sort of The art the the Musician being the artist and then you've got people like You know talking hate to basically starting off in art school So you've got that transference. Well, I could have yeah. Well, you can show lots. I mean you have to make you can show a lot And you don't have to That's why you're here. Could I oh, sorry What's the difference that's basically the difference between? Well, when you talk about trans Disciplinary, I'm looking I'm thinking Oh, what is that? I mean because artists don't think Generally in binary ways anyway They will change Amazing, thank you So quite a few questions in there and it's obviously a good question because you're getting all of our panelists are very excited and right up I think yeah, so Can I come can I come to Amara first and then I'll come to Ray and then I'll come to Richard So because you I think Amara first said the phrase Transdisciplinary Um, so can you talk to us a bit about what that means for you and your practice? Thank you so much. Um, so for me About 10 years ago when I um started working professionally, um in music initially Um, I became you know, I self identified as an interdisciplinary artist and I saw that what I was doing was I was I was being a a musician today And I was dabbling in theater tomorrow and I was you know experimenting with something else the next day I was exploring installations another day But this idea of I was moving between what I understood really rigid forms And I was you know, I was like I want to experiment with this. I want to experiment with that I I believe that trans disciplinary says I don't even want to see any of those things as solid Boundaries, I don't want to see that what I'm doing today is shifting from one thing to one thing to one thing I am actually just being And I am exploring through whatever medium feels right whatever tool whatever, you know Resource feels appropriate for that spiritual thing that I'm trying to tap into And to some people that I would think that Transdisciplinary has to be understood for for audiences. I think it has to be a journey for myself Um, and and and I want to hope that you know building relationships with audiences Is that key thing is about building relationships and you hope that you're able to build relationships? But to me Transdisciplinary practice is in first and foremost a commitment to myself to eliminate some of those some of those structural barriers That exist mentally first Love that. Thank you. Hmm Ray. What are your thoughts? Um I think it's a really good question and One framework I would offer is The Taoist notion of yin and yang If you've seen the symbol it's a circle with a curved line black and white um And there's a black dot in the white part and a white dot in the black part and what I think It conveys about duality Is that there's motion and there's flow between opposites One thing doesn't exist without its opposite But that they're not necessarily rigidly separate and that there's a little bit of the opposite in the it I don't know um, and so When we're talking about binaries, I think and these boundaries, I think Increasingly I've found that the boundaries are much more blurred or more complex and more porous than I ever thought but um There is a duality and the question might be is the is that duality generative? How is it creating an experience? For people and how is it are we able to to flow through these pieces? um Because I think it's in that flow state that we can connect to the spirit And in terms of the difference between trans disciplinary interdisciplinary there's a there's a field of people discussing that and and um Interrogating that I'm not super well read on it, but my instinct is I I feel that inter is um, a bit more about two disciplines like crossing Between the two structured disciplines Trans disciplinary is maybe a little bit more like transcending those structures and is more about is more fluid perhaps Thank you, um Richard. I think what I'm really curious about and what um, this person is for me is bringing up especially reference in punk is This idea of working beyond binaries boundaries, whatever you want to call it is not new. It's something that artists have continued to think about and to do Um, so just off to hear your your take on that Funnily you should say that because one of the album covers I was going to show and I didn't because I didn't want to hope that Turn this into a two hour lecture Was pill the metal metal one, so I was going to show that and I had to drop so I had to it had to go It had to be gone But the other thing I didn't mention as well, of course, he talked about punk and I'm going to give it to you full on Now it's like when I was a student an art student. I was in a thrash metal band And so, you know, what did you play drums? fugazi all these bands, you know, um Um, uh, I've forgotten names now. Oh god field day. Um, I can't I'm diagnostic. Oh, anyway, all these bands so and then When I left college, you know, I've worked in galleries and then um, um in Manchester another art bands Where we played music which was really like just playing a three four minute song Which is just a chorus or it was just a verse But I didn't want to talk about all that because I just wanted I wanted to talk about Kind of history like what I kind of do and it was an opportunity just to think through and to share some images I don't know how many of these images were familiar to anybody in terms of artists And you know, the ways in which certain artists get pigeonholed in certain ways So basquiat is framed in a very particular way And I wanted to bring in together with a mondrian just to kind of You know break this kind of ways of looking, you know, this idea of And I was also very conscious when I was putting this together kind of like men men men So I wanted to that interject with some other kind of work, you know And so that's why I was approaching it. Of course you can put in punk and um The ways in which artists, you know produce Um artists, you know become musicians and musicians become artists, you know Yeah, so but you know good question But just so that you know, I was going to put the pill in so what they had now I wish I'd swallowed the pill Um, I've got a question. I really want to ask you about basquiat and jay-z And I want to see if we can get there because I think it's really interesting Um, but before I do ask that I want to see if anyone else has Questions comments things they're thinking about I'm sorry Mara Interestingly enough, I feel like you are heading in that direction with basquiat and jay-z No, no, let's go. What are you gonna tell us? I was gonna kind of pick up on the sort of the the punk thread And some think about this sort of um history futures Thing because as a as a hip-hop nerd Um, what I'm really interested in is sort of the origins, you know, we transport back to 70s Bronx and it was you know, a lot of um young people african-americans latinx communities Caribbean, you know new arrived communities who were who were building an art form And and and the interesting thing is that art form is obviously a relationship to lots of predecessor art forms But what I'm really interested in this idea of Genres of resistance like hip-hop like punk Where a peaceful critique of their environment In one way or another we're addressing the the systemic ills of their time past and present And so, you know, we talk so much about the idea that these were art forms that were you know about raising Uh a public consciousness and you know, we're raising a mass public consciousness in the same way that lots of visual Practices were about raising a mass consciousness Um the bit that of artistic practice that I'm interested in is then how do we mobilize towards something once we have a level of Of consciousness. So this is where I get really excited about science fiction Walida in marisha, adria marie brown say that all organizing is science fiction I need to cultivate a world that does not exist yet Is an act of science fiction and this is what I love about, you know Art in its expansiveness in its interdisciplinary in us in its transdisciplinary in us Is doing this piece about organizing about mobilizing about consciousness Um as an act of science fiction. I just wanted to um just also uplift this idea of the past is now The future is now the present isn't is a fractal sort of microcosm of The things that have come before and the things that have yet to come For this idea in of science fiction and time travel It's music that gave me a vocabulary to think about this But it was visual art that gave me a sort of embodied Experience of what this time travel thing is about and I think it links back to you know, um Tari's original point about spirit I think all of these things are about us collectively tapping into that whether we use that shared vocabulary on This is the power of art Yeah, you know, it's I think Especially with science, you know black science fiction Afrofuturism that period was What I think so many people connected to was the idea of seeing ourselves in the future that we continue to exist I think about I think was it spike lee who said that about um Uh, who was who who had a star trek fans in the any trekkies in in in the house? Oh, can you okay see i'm not trekkie, but my dad is yes, I can do that But my dad is a trekkie. Who was was it? Who was the first black person in star trek? What's what's her name? Uh-huh. Yeah I think it was I think it was spike lee that said to her like oh now you're in this People know that we'll black people exist in the future And so when I think about us imagining which you know, you have to understand We didn't know if we would still get to stay around because we were being Not welcomed and murdered and you know, I don't want to bring it down, but it's you know, so I think the idea that it's now and that we're moving into Afro surrealism and and black artists and creatives Really imagining ourselves in big are Brilliant fantastical ways it is about looking beyond those boxes and boundaries about what not just who we are as individuals but as communities and and the spaces that we That we come into and that that then falls into artists like Beyonce making renaissance and songs like alien superstar with honey Dijon and that and that being being a Fantastic also realist imagination of Who who we are? Let's see if anyone else has got some questions or thoughts or things they'd like to yes at the back of specialization Yeah, cool, I'm just going to repeat the question just so everyone can hear that's a really really cool question And tell me if I'm getting it wrong but you wanted to ask about the economic benefits of specializing and and and how Working in a more trans disciplinary way Doesn't offer as much economic benefit and how that works Ray can I come to you because we've had conversations about this yes so one thought is you know If you were in the music industry when the pandemic hit all of the structures all of the rules were annulled and The way we were trained and specialized for live performance suddenly you know didn't apply in the same way and um I think in I think today Versatility is The new virtuosity or a new kind of virtuosity and so the ability for musicians to be able to You know mix their own work Make images Be business people in addition to you know, there's a lot of different skills that we have to learn and We can learn so much from people from other disciplines. And the other thing is collaborating with it is so essential to make anything happen and Having the privilege of co-directing tangram our artist collective has really taught me that because when we pool our resources we're able to When we pool our credentials, we're able to get funding more easily for our projects When we put our heads together, we're able to make things happen that we otherwise couldn't And also we've been able to create a space for ourselves to explore art as whole artists as as as entire people Rather than just instrumentalists. Um, so for example a production that we're Working on right now is alex's anti opera called untold which explores british chinese identity and in it i'm doing some wuxu, which is chinese martial arts where The the musicians are also the kind of the storytellers and the characters and Because we created our own space. We could kind of create our own rules a little bit On stage. So these are different ways that I think Um the You know being Transdisciplinary can have economic Benefits, but I also hear you about the constrictions and and those necessities as well. Those are real And it's and I you know, maybe it's about Yeah, thank you I think maybe it's about finding that your areas of specialism and how that can lead into your ability to then After be able to collaborate and expand your practice, but maybe everyone out the gate you can't Maybe I don't know Amara could see you already. Let's go I find this a very generative question and I really appreciate your response as well And and I was sitting there thinking although, you know, that there's so much validity in Specialism and you know and the and the sort of Trajectories, I guess, but I would also like in my head. I'm interrogating. What if instead of Specialism, this was about engaging with depth because then rather than thinking about niche Then we start to think much more, you know in in sort of a mycelium sense It's about that interconnectedness and it's about, you know, moving beyond even still Singular form. So even that piece about, you know, what you just said about collaboration I want to really just uplift that even more because that that, you know, if we're talking about depth Then what we're actually interrogating. How might we be able to to use our skills as instrumentalists and I don't know come up with Actually, I'll talk about a project. I've got um, I've been building a project called sci-fi collaboratory and we've been working with Musicians, visual artists Residents and climate scientists to imagine what what the relationship is between science fiction and climate justice So it's really really precious when we have residents who think that they have Absolutely nothing to to say or to know about climate justice Then start to connect with, you know, um Um Eboard player who's like What how do we think about acoustics in in a in a just future? How do we think about spatial design? What would our architectures need to look like if they both had an acoustic quality that made sense to me as an instrumentalist And were rooted in um, you know, justice against noise pollution That there have been so many like really generative Explorations experiments conversations that have happened because it's about depth of an idea rather than The the sort of niche skill set because also I think even within our niche skill sets We don't also know the generative offerings that we have Um that are adjacent to all the things that we've been affirmed in we haven't even tapped into all the other stuff And I see there's a handle and come to you in a second But I think what the person at the back who asked the question The the react there's also a realness of that some elements of someone's practice pays more than other elements and I think As someone who's been a freelancer for a very long time before landing in the job that i'm in now Like there are some things that you do because this they say income thing and you need and it's you get to be creative and and and You know, but there's other bits where you counterbalance that across and even in like In in all jobs, it's about finding this bit might be my most enriching bit, but I gotta get this contract together You know, it's and finding a balance Overall, there's a question in the corner at the back Connected How would you describe the logic of this? I'm sorry, I could I'm going to watch you. Okay. Um, there's a fire alarm and we have to evacuate the building I'm really sorry Amara you don't have to leave Um, hold on hold on the call. Stay on and I'll I'll one way or another. I'll let you know. Okay. Thank you so much We're back we are back Come on in. Sorry about that interruption. I suppose we should be grateful. It's not an actual fire It was cool. It's like having a breakout discussion. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, yeah, we've never stopped do come on in come sit near us come and we've now got a shared experience that we can all draw on shared drama And a bit of coldness so Richard's making this I'll jump. Thank you. Yeah Right So thank you all and apologies about Such activities. So we we were just I'm going to carry on the conversation that a few of us were having outside we were talking about the language of Music and visual art and how do you know which one is the right one and how do you know if they're actually expressing The same thing. Is that accurate? Yeah What they offer each other Yeah, um So I was just about to talk about there's a program I ran at the Horniman called six nine six That was a celebration of black british music and the sounds of south london's land It was a response to the met police form six nine six that um stopped unlimited black live music in london for about 10 years and The reason I called the program that was because I wanted to acknowledge what had happened but also Do something about it with with the resources of the Horniman that I had Reasonably to my disposal and what I found in that project is that you have to talk to people It's there's a rule of marketing that you have to hit people seven times before they want to buy something And I think which is like usually you'll see a poster you'll see an advert You'll someone will tell you about it and then you think oh, actually this New cereal sounds cool And I think different art forms offer you those different ways to hit A different thing so there was an exhibition that celebrated the spaces black music spaces that Thrived and enabled black music to thrive despite things like six nine six There was a festival that celebrated the music artists um of south london There were programs that enabled There were residencies that enabled artists to be creative in the spaces And so having those different strands the different program. I think spoke to Our immediate community on our doorstep in different ways to say we are here for you We Want to be a resource for you and we want to celebrate you sorry for me. I think what what the different Disciplines offer our different Communication styles because people receive information in different ways And so by bringing them around one idea you You get to connect a human being really that's what we're trying to do is communicate right It's to connect to someone or to or to some people In a way that they might be able to receive the thing that you're feeling or thinking about That's my take what what what your thoughts tell you agree with everything you said and also just I was saying about just Because you were asking that how do you know that how do you know and it's that it's it's that deeper understanding of the narrative and What it is you're trying to say How and I communicated a lot There were many many conversations and You know, like I said, she's not a musician. So how she heard the music she would draw sketches Which is really interesting to me. Okay, so the verse is like this 30 centimeters and I'm like wait what but it was it was so cool because at the end of it I was like you've just drawn the song That's so cool. And yeah, it's up on my wall and Um But that's how she understood it, you know and and I and my language is through melodies and and and chords and and so um I think it's yeah, it's that just coming back To the narrative and making sure that the dialogue if you were to work with a musician That it's constant because it's constantly evolving But the more you talk and explore and dive into it You will you'll find your you know the world in which You you want to occupy, you know Amazing. Um, I think we might have a cup with where Getting down to the wire on time. So I want to throw it back up to People in the room. Has anyone else got questions or things that they're curious about That's coming up through this conversation. Yes, please Which I think is really interesting But do you think he would have been allowed or welcomed into Sotheby's having not already like established himself as a As a grand emcee and done so well, obviously not definitely not And I need to say that. Yeah. Yeah a lot of people um That I know started out and maybe spoken word And then they got into theatre and then they then they got into like writing uh for film and tv Like Yeah, so that's the that's making me think right back to your question It's um about the economics of specializing or as Amara said depth like we know skeptic is hard artistically, right Making some of the best music ever and So people therefore are going to be more trusted and and also the economics of it, right? We know that there's an audience We know that people care about this person's creativity So if they then it's then a lot it's then a privilege to have the opportunity to work Um In a what was the term that we're using trans discipline trans disciplinary way Um, yeah, maybe maybe part of what your question earlier was was asking was about the privilege of that that is a To to be able to do Amara. What do you think? Um, I wish just I wish I could see everyone. I wish I was in the room But this I would also add that not only is it about um, the not not um having equal access Um, there's also something that's huge about cultural capital Like that would also add on to your question Would skeptic even be there if grime didn't have it's globalized renaissance that came much later You know, then it's origins that there had to be some sort of, uh Transatlantic sort of recognition of skeptic, you know and and the the giants of grime Um for skeptic as an individual to be platformed in that way or to to be able to access those spaces And I think it's so much more than than than grime because you know, he's a skeptic was as as infamous like to me he was like the king in 2004, you know, like There's something about um cultural capital and what is recognized and what is valued at what time that adds on to that access question I think Yeah it's so interesting like I think I'm going to show my age here. I'm going to reveal. I often score myself ageless, but I'm about to age myself I I logged Maybe a year or two ago. I logged into my old myspace account And I found messages on there from jme promoting his music Um, I had like some most yeah jme and jamal edwards, right? Both I had direct messages from them who were just promoting stuff and it was making me Which I thought was so cool to look back at and see the hustle and them the grind of which you don't see Right, you don't think Yeah, jme was DMing people in 2000 and whatever it was to promote their music and to build and it's that All of that and the economics of that is what has enabled Them to to grow and to develop Plus with this wave of what grime is now and even um Top way like there are people who don't think Who don't know cano and they don't they don't know these people are musicians. They don't know um Ashley waters as a as a mc because they're like, oh, he's actor I saw on tiktok like brad, you know, that's what he had beat. He had two songs in the Yeah, um, but for people people of a different generation it's And I think that idea of depth I really love that it's a way that you can celebrate Specializing and then by doing that it gives gives you the freedom to create. I think it's a really cool question But definitely not scepter would not if he was just He's why yeah Well, I suppose you could also ask you could also try to interject But I made me think you're the devil cycling to the elephant. I saw a picture of Stormzy and his underpants You know Kelvin Klein, so, you know, I mean you can you know, he won't be advertising Intimates if he wasn't stormy, you know to me, you know, so I mean this is the kind of world Yeah, this is the world that we live in as well and nothing that has to that something about You know not all musicians or artists do that, you know in terms of the kind of logical steps that you might make You know and what's happening there? This is capital, you know, this is capitalism and this is a Important part of production and what we do and how how things are produced Um, so it's it's a consideration. I think Hmm and and thinking about that cultural capital is interesting to think what does it do to Sotheby's and to the kind of visual art that they sell to have somebody as culturally relevant as scepter Induce them. I think it's really really interesting and When we're thinking about audiences and their relationship to art, what does that? Who is that introducing? Sotheby's too because like I'm not, you know, I'm not checking for them really I've got out of the budget But um, I can see you the person redcoats got a question Me my friends had this conversation a couple of weeks ago And so them doing this for scepter opened the door for slaw I wish it was open the door for like people like clintz The door for like every table moses. It's all sort of this new I don't want to I don't want to put a name on it. But you can see the people who used to open the doors for But it's now more pretty young or black artists Who you know, it's their their expression will not be accepted on the wider scale But yeah Yeah, I have complicated feelings about extreme Yeah, maybe this is not But I think it's you know, it's not new because you can look at you know Look at reggae in the 70s and the globalization of it You know the you know, so this these aren't kind of new kind of things in terms of the marketing Although see with Sotheby's you know, it's kind of them looking at kind of their products and different dimensions from Being a auction house to being an education institution doing education generating art art scholarship to now mixing it with the Musicians, do you know what I mean? So it's like diversifying everything can kind of diversify It's do you know what I mean? There's this kind of thing about McDonald's owned pret-a-mon-j Do you know what I mean? It's like it's all You know, and that then where do you fit in as an artist in all this kind of mayhem of You know, this is you know, what's the incredible artists, you know in terms of making work that can Try to not not resist it because obviously people have to be realistic But also just making what that kind of reaches people You know people, you know, yeah Very cool In a moment, I'm going to see if any of our panelists have who are also in the room and on zoom Have any questions for each other? But before I do come to you guys, I'm going to come back to the room and see if anyone's got any questions In the room. Yes, please Absolutely So Do you know what's really interesting I this I think we had this conversation actually when When I was curating this exhibition at the Horniman part of because it's a museum You have to explain things and a lot of museums unlike galleries Will provide a lot of interpretation so that people can find their way into the work and they can understand it As part of that I needed to produce a glossary that had terminology for what was the the content Including lots of different music genres and I found it really difficult to personally to define drill music because when I Was researching and googling and looking at other how other people have characterized the music It was all about its association to violence and Unlike other art forms or other music genres Sorry where they are characterized much more by their musical properties compositional properties and so What I do what I did which was my my personal little Radical thing that I well just the thing I wanted to put into the world was in that exhibition to find that music purely by its musical properties and compositional properties so that it Was for me her parity with other genres of music and did not talk about in relationship to violence at all so I think for me Yeah, it's got it's got a distinct tempo distinct musical elements Types of rhythm triplets that I used so Yeah, I'm 100% What what what do you think? You don't think it's creative and is that because of the process by which it happens Okay, I think it's interesting. I don't think there's a right or wrong a wrong answer it's often I was talking about six nine six earlier and I think Often you see limitation is what is the is the breeding ground for creativity Grime music grimes are heavily criticized the perform Life performances of crime were heavily criticized as people don't know how to perform They don't know how to engage the audience because for 10 years in London where most of that music was being developed It was almost impossible to put on a crime night and so for crime artists to be able to perform live So when they were then escalated in terms of popularity and could get on the telly Or in front of large audiences. They hadn't built the muscle in how to do that yet and so I I wonder if access to resources and as they change for crime music it will Enable people to work beyond the binary of I'm going to I'm going to get a beat from someone else and I'm going to Reproduce what I think has happened. I think it's still really really early music and In this life and so in this country drill the kind of wave that we mean I think it's going to be cool to see how it's developed. What do you think tomorrow? I think the I really echo what you've said that the thing about lineage is also something that's interesting interesting to me both in terms of Narrative in the way that you know narratives have developed and as a form of expression I'm I'm also I'm almost in this place of mine was like who am I to say, you know It's people's it's people's poetry. But the bit that I am interested in is What you've said about from limitation comes creativity I think that that's as true About the composition about the components of the music as much as it is about the infrastructure and societal Limitations, so I would always say that anything that can create something out of nothing Is an act of creativity? I talk about my granddad combining water flower You know a little bit of cornmeal a bit of salt and sugar and making a dumpling as a radical act of creativity His dumplings a lot of other dumplings that they're a bit different on the life They're a little bit different to other people But you know this it's not like the the act of the dumpling is the sacred precious nobody else can ever It's the act of making it itself to me. I look at that as a Transformation I look at it as a tenderness and look at it as a giving form to something that wasn't there before How that manifests in the world in different interpretations of that are to be honest From my personal perspective the bit that I'm least interested in as opposed to and what was that transformation for The person who was sharing that story. That's the bit that I'm interested in if it's creative or not. I'm kind of It's not my business almost That may be contentious in a space because we have been talking a lot about audiences But I'm much more interested in the process of transformation that people go on in the acts of making There's there's somebody who gives thank you every time I more I speak I just feel like It's just wonderful Yeah, I there's I've I'm terrible with names and the name isn't coming to me It's pulling store somebody um does a talk that's about how hip-hop is radically feminist because The world teaches men to not talk about their feelings and rap music and hip-hop Is a space in which men are able to be emotional and to express their emotions and I think that's speaking to So and that's within the context of derogatory misogynistic homophobic lyrical content. It's acknowledging that but going actually That included it's still a space in which you can Be vulnerable as a man And I think that the process bit is what is what it's speaking to tomorrow I think we've got time for maybe one final question before some of our panelists have to disappear If anyone's got a burning one Now Is your moment? No pressure Yeah That Is that directed at anyone specific? Yeah Yeah, I think it's it's important. I think it's um you know working with filmmakers and artists and Having conversation and dialogue and seeing how you can create a world that you really believe in and that you want people to Experience is Is really exciting the process. That's what we were talking about. It's interesting with our and I as well because Al is just about the process At a gig a wreck and Al's not performing. I'm performing So I can't I can't I can't go um So it's really interesting because you know, the it is really just Creating the work for Al and for me. It's about Sharing it live and and and having You know that energy exchange with people in the room um So yeah for that reason, I think you know different Artists offer different things and give different things and they all feed into into what you're trying to share in this In and this world like just Keep keep me in creatives keep talking keep seeing who you vibrate with um because It helps you grow also as as an artist. I've grown so much in This process, you know, it hasn't been easy. So it's not always easy as well, you know people challenge you um I challenged Al there were tears there's laughter, but at the end of the day we've got this album that we're really proud of so Yeah amazing Well, and with that I'd like to thank you all for joining us and rejoining us post almost fires Thank you and please join me in giving a huge round of applause to everyone in the room to our panelists The class fire and the team that so asked thank you all so much