 We're back. It's still the breakfast in plus TV Africa and we have a next conversation up Ready with a guest standing by. Well, the central bank of Nigeria is in the news again This time the apex bank has launched what it calls a Nigerian national domestic card scheme or Africa What is Africa? They say it's aimed at creating a more Robust payment system that will drive financial inclusion in the country Launching the card virtually yesterday the governor of the central bank of Nigeria, Mr Gordon Mayfee Lee and who has not had the time to go answer questions of the house of reps Well, he said that transaction charges on all cards will henceforth be paid in Naira except for international Transactions according to him Africa would be cheaper and would be a matter of national pride with potential to boost financial Inclusion in the country CBN also said it will be in a coming up with a deadline for the existing card schemes in the country after which they will no longer Be eligible for domestic Transactions joining us this morning to look at what this development means for business transactions in Nigeria among others This is Mokhtar Muhammad. He is an environmental economist. Mokhtar. Good morning to you. Thank you very much for joining us Right them the central bank Governor is saying that this Africa which is domestic card will be cheaper and that the charges will be paid in Naira When we talk about the cards we have in use today, we look at the verb Mastercard visa are these the cards he's referring to and if yes, what has issue been and what's the thinking behind this domestic card scheme? Thank you so much. I Think you said it you said it well in your introduction the CBS at the news again I think it may feel it always comes is enjoying the maybe is enjoying the media platform And so it's coming to the news because at this time at this point in time What Nigerians are interested in is how to swap the owner and with the hitches that have to do it in you They are not not coming up with issues of domestic We've had this I mean been on for a couple of months but the CBN never came out to see whether it's true or not But I'm to your question and he says we need to have domestic card. We need to face out Domestic card is only going to be used for domestic And transactions so what happened would I want to do international transactions? And again, I keep saying the CBN keep going out of his secretary duties of monetary policy and begin to enter into others Payment plan they are the quantity at CBN only to give license for people to be involved in payment platform Not for them themselves not being involved. Remember the way it also came out with the night and the The They are also and that also have not even been a they cannot say they have any success in that Now they are coming to domestic and domestic account account that they themselves will be the one I'm handling it I it's it's confusing and Unfortunately, they do what they normally do it say policy. They don't come up with how this policy is going to work We'll be hearing details about it In the matters of months and days or weeks. I think it's it's it's becoming Embarrassing the way the CBN is going about everything that is being done by commercial banks or conventional banks We dare the regulators and now what they want to be doing So, I mean one is beginning to wonder, you know Why the CBN is becoming a player in a market that she's regulating, right? But you know moving away from that the major concern now would be how can we purchase things? You know in Nigeria now. I mean if we have to buy things for instance, you're paying for software You're paying for demand. You're making subscription For instance, maybe the Netflix and whatever you how can people now, you know begin to make purchases with this Africa go You see when you look at those purchases, you remember that most of them have also been able to Domesticate their payment system if you talk about Netflix or you talk about them if you are using a pool product like them The music platform Yeah, you realize that those platform have been you can use your Naira have your Naira card, maybe Mastercard, Vavcard or Or Visa card to pay for those things using the Nigerian account to the same Nigerian card And the only transaction that you cannot do may be some for some time is when you want to buy something outside the shop This country, maybe you want to transfer business want to use ATM outside these countries I mean, it's been a problem. So for the CBN to come I think they want to be a player Maybe they want to say you begin to use we only use master cards and best card when we are brought when we are Nigeria we are Mandated to use their own card and then for the CBN to go as far as naming some of the countries that are into it like China Indian Turkey Russia I mean you look at those countries. You realize that most of them Do you know that the Mastercard is not allowed as a means of payment in some of this You know website, I mean, it's difficult to you pay with Mastercard. This is from, you know The first-hand experience and I'm telling you what it is I mean with with this particular policy and with the Afri Africa card with intention It sounds very great, but I mean there's a limitation. It therefore means that you can't have cross-border transaction Exactly that's the same thing exactly with the Mastercard You know is the bank that came out and said that they don't want to be in doing transaction again Internationally through the Mastercard Nigeria Mastercard or face a Mastercard over master and vodka It wasn't them themselves. They say no, we don't want to do this transaction Are you and I know the reason for that is because of the shortage of trust Supply in terms of them dollars in the system They're trying to manage what they have and these are no policy that they have put in 20 Remember this policy they've been sliding in 2015 after some time when there's improvement in supply of the land We normally get back to normal But in this case now this Domestika and the CBN have made it Exclusive that it's going to be only for domestic Transaction and in a world that has become a global Village, I wonder how Nigerians will be translating businesses just within look at so we only look at business I want to get international transaction. I will have to have another card What do you think I'm gaining in terms of Payment in in Naira. I'm losing in terms of wider coverage Especially in terms of having to pay a different Cardigan to do another transaction uproar. So for me, I think with which which the policy is not a clear hot policy I think the CBN said they will come up with it if they have come up with situation whereby We can begin to use those cards to do and transaction outside the service country And I believe I remember we have gone beyond card. That's one thing the CBN seems to drag us back Modern banking has gone beyond you using physical card. They are beginning to see how you can use your facial Recognition I can use your thumb print. That's what we are going to no moving away card And out the point is like when others are going to be of that from that section That's where the CBN is not coming to that space. So for me I think like you said you cannot be a regulator and you want to be a player You either choose to be a player or choose to be a regulator and when he mentioned this country What he did not say that this domestic card in this country are not driven by the CBN or the central banks of this country They are driven by individual company private sector. They are the one being and they are competing on it and with the other Players like the master card and other so why should we not be thinking of we want to domesticate our account We don't want other player who want to I think it for me, I Don't understand why the CBN is doing what they are doing. It's quite interesting. Yeah, I mean You with all your experience, you're so funny a bit on club. It's all a bit Um, you know shrouded in in some sort of confusion. I mean I remember the e-nirah Have you used the e-nirah? You see the e-nirah never walk it was a digital currency and you know why they came out with the e-nirah at that time They were banning crypto Transaction and they are saying look we have come out on digital currency people never be because we are coming now with a With a payment platform that my account will still be residual in the bank So if I have challenges, who do I go to meet do I not begin to write a letter to CBN Normally when you have those Issues you walk into the bank and the bank will be able to sort out your issues with your card and he's talking about Transaction and cost what he has forgotten that now banks are they being make it easier you go there You get it that very big and you don't even pay They sometimes it has to pay one thousand and some banks are not going to beat it for that and send that you Can have one card for five years and you pay one thousand so it's I think the CBN just seems Want to be in the news Either for the right or the wrong reason. All right. The CBN is talking about financial inclusion You know with this National domestic card scheme Africa. They are talking about national pride And what about that those sounds they had the sound really good to the ear It sounds good, but in any internet How do you be a national pride if you're not going to be a global player player Nigerian bands are even beginning to look at have been international card payment system That what they have they are beginning to give a look Cards that you can use in Nigeria you can use in Africa You can use any part of the world and yet the regulator that is supposed to come in there and help you people expand Globally saying he wants to get you to use a domestic card. How does it add up? Hmm. What about financial inclusion, which is something that everyone wants to see happen in this country? You see the CBN when they come up with policy They like telling us we are trying to get financial inclusion remember the POS remember the money agents remember I mean they've come up with all sorts So how much have they achieved in those policy with inclusions? So there will be if you have if you have achieved some Considerable result. That's what will begin to consider you to be a part of you I can assure you that 90% of Nigerians will reject this card because They the way they rejected it in Ireland. I can assure you because you are not I'm not going to go I like I said, I don't have a challenge with my card. Who will I go to meet? I'll see go to me same bank Well, I can't receive the Russian the partnership is not giving me a banking platform I Remember that you're not even looking at the charges the bank would collect for you for using their platform to do the track They cut transaction. It cannot be for free Well, some people are saying that this particular scheme is bad for the Those who are in the banking business. I mean talking about the banking sector. That's on the one hand Well on the other hand Do you think it would have been just you know Fantastic for the CBN or some sort of support for local fintech companies rather than this policy Exactly exactly like I said, the banks are beginning to look at international to become an international payment system payment Platform that's what all the banks are looking at you. I mean, it's not a tier one banks They have been expanding all over Africa and that's one of them are even becoming global players And they are looking at how they can develop a payment platform that if I'm in the UK, I can use if I'm in the US I can use if I'm in Ghana I can use that look we are looking at one old system They won't have become a global business a global village Everybody's looking for easy means. How should I be carrying two car if I want to do a domestic I mean a dollar transaction account after having dollar domination. I think the only way they see beyond would have made this to be a game changer It's to turn engines that we now have a car that you can use in any part of the world You don't have to begin to go to the beauty change or come to us to do an instant platform If you want to travel all you need is to get this This is our card and then load your Naira there We give it official CBN exchange rate when you get abroad you can do every purchase I tell you that is the only game changer and that will not only address the issue of effects shortage It will now address the issue of unification of the effects rate But what the CBN is doing now is telling us we must stay domestically We must be domestically domestic brand and why the band that you are regulating are thinking of becoming a global player You've said you know that and you know their case studies in countries like India We have a situation on our hands. You've talked about is a number of times on this program Which is we have you know a forex shortage acute forex shortage because of You know the the the effects of of of the global Situation on the crude oil Market we have forex shortage because of you know the reduction in production You know of crude oil and sales from Nigeria and of course we have a lot of debt to pay We also Subsidizing we're paying for the one we are bringing in to give to people for free or next and almost free and a lot of factors that you know You the economists who will put forward has been reason for what we are facing right now the Naira is struggling seriously And what can the CBN do to address this? Why should we have in a country as big as Nigeria these guys? The master cards the the visas of this world come into a country and then we have transactions by Nigerians and they are Charging us or placing charges on those transactions in usd. Isn't it the place of the central Bank say we won't protect the Nigerian economy We're not going to allow Nigerians paid the charges for transactions in our country in usd and we protect the economy we need to be Educated when you when you when you do a transaction with the Naira or the master card within Nigerian space You pay the local courage But when you do transaction outside the show of this country or you want to You pay the dollar rate in terms of those transaction and then let's come back Now as it stands now you cannot even use the master card Naira master card or vast Visa master card or even vast master card Outside the show of this country that's Naira denominated. You need to get a dollar denoted even when you want to go to get effects, maybe Pt basic traveling allowance They know the banks are not giving you their own card They are bans are even begin to give cards that are domicile in dollar that you can use outside the show of this country To the no more give you the cash Some banks no more give you the card they have their own dollar card that you they will give you that this value this way they're going to note that Effects into and when you get abroad you can use it for purchase or whatever you want to do So what we are saying in essence is that? The only places that you see such of this connection being done and the city and I've done it I if you're in Nigeria, you are going to apply for a UK visa You are asked to pay in pounds or dollars in a certain account that will give me see be it is not protecting the night in this So so so only way is that some places you some initially remember there was a time that houses in Iqo'i And banana island they say you have to pay rent in dollars And I remember the then CBN gov not let me do something. Let me do came and say you cannot do a Transaction in Nigeria by paying dollars Remember some airline why we have the problem with Emirates and Emory came up and said that Nigeria should stop paying There for the etiquette in dollars and the CBN the gop did the fragment came and I said in Nigeria The official legal tender is the Naira and any airline that collect dollar will be banned And that so what are we doing to protect? Nigerians it's it is more than to lack of creativity Because what Nigerians businesses are looking for now? I mean the CBN should be looking to build businesses that will be attacking effects into the economy Okay, but just a quick one a quick one you've talked about the difficulties and truly I think we're all witness to it and beneficiaries even one colleague that the banks themselves have even stopped You know most of their cards or categories of customers from even transacting a paying in dollars I mean today if your card expires for even the major banks the what we call them again The Yes, the acronym there's an acronym for them But you know if you go to get a new card you will not you can't use it to pay for maybe a YouTube for instance YouTube payments This year on Thursday January 5th this year as any banking from these customers that it would be suspending international ATM withdrawals so we all know some of these challenges we've been facing but The banks and even Nigerians have found a way around it with startups who have come up to to with services Enabling you have virtual for instance Mastercard, you know and all that in another country You can hold a virtual card in Nigeria and then you can pay For your transactions wherever they are in the world and for instance There's a startup wouldn't call the name now But they they allow you to make purchases or with a virtual dollar card of up to $25,000 dollars monthly So them have been advertising over the place You know on the streets and on the internet and we have cryptocurrency Or cryptocurrencies which are being used like Bitcoin ethereum and Co which Nigerians can also use to make transactions And do you think that there will be a problem? You know if you want to use the changera you want to use pay the Chippa even a bank in Nigeria has a lot It's one of those services as well Do you think that we have a problem? You know, I mean we can just simply go patronize these guys Or do you think that this CBN stance now will affect even these startups who are offering these services? Remember you just said the startups are not offering those services and that's what I said The startups are not offering those services for domestic transaction They are looking at the international market That is where they are looking at this is the challenges that we are having in Nigeria We don't have problem in domestic payments. We have problem with international transaction So that is what the CBN should be addressing Not that the CBN should be addressing domestic payment. How many people in the rural area who want to carry those cards? We are giving them the we are giving them the POS terminal How many of them they still rather go to the POS terminal collect cash and go to their marketing and do their Transaction in cash the challenge Nigeria economy is facing now is in the area of the international business and knowing that a lot of Nigerian companies SMEs especially Don't Import a lot of their product outside the show of this country So what platform are you providing for them to make ease of doing business and attract this efforts into our economy? That is where I think the see what that's what I think the CBN should be looking at not coming out We don't have problem with domestic payment. Even the domestic payment We have not even been able to even I mean Do it excellently because sometimes you do those transactions your your money is angry Why is he therefore saying that we will no longer pay in dollars for using those cards or the charges on those cars Just help me understand that please I don't understand that Because I'm waiting for you to come up because I know that I only pay for dollar if I have a dollar don't say I've never done a Naira transaction the only time we used to do that is when you have the Naira Dominator card at that time that you were able to use it to pay. I think you'll use it one thousand dollars a Month and that is if you have by the official Exchange rate when you go with your Naira card any part of the world you can do but you can only do one thousand dollars Then later when it was reduced to 500 at the point you were reduced to 100 at the point was even reduced to 20 until finally there was a total ban So and those were only transactions They will charge you base if you want to use the 80m. So now even if you have your dollar don't say Card if you go abroad if you are using payment platform. You're not withdrawing. You're not charging anything You just go there and you pay So I don't understand like you. I don't understand me. Maybe maybe in the coming days after the central bank governor is done Facing the House of Representatives and fame Virgil Bermina. Hopefully he won't be arrested He might get some more information. I cannot show you that he will not be there Well, let's see I was moved to my bed. Thank you very much for your time Pleasure All right, Muhtem Mohamed is Developmental Economist against in the first discussion this morning. Well, we take a break when we return we'll be talking sports I mean a lot on the table. Just stay with us