 Welcome, everybody, to another episode of the Nonprofit Show. We're so glad you've come back to join us. You're seeing some new faces, some familiar faces, and this is going to be a really important conversation that we've kind of had, you know, we've touched on and moved back and forth on. And we have nobody better to talk about this with than Miko Marquette Whitlock. A lot of you will know him from the Nonprofit Show. We've had him on before as the mindful techie, but he's going to be talking to us about protecting ourselves from burnout. And Miko, the ravages of the non-profit work, of non-profit work, it's a real thing, isn't it? Absolutely, absolutely. It is very real. It's unfortunately, it's something that is very common among us that are doing change-making work. And the good news is that there are ways that we can address it. We can acknowledge it. We can address it. We can confront it in a constructive way. I love it. Well, I can't wait to hear what you have to say. And I want to kind of point out something new that's really exciting in the Nonprofit Show. We now have a handful of co-hosts. I am one of them. I am just one of them. And it's really cool because today we have Wendy Adams, CFRE, who's joining me as a co-host, but spoiler alert, Miko Marquette Whitlock is also joining us as a co-host. But today he's in the hot seat. So, you know, we're gonna come at this a little differently. And so we're really excited to welcome all of our co-hosts as, thank our presenting sponsors. They include Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Staffing Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy at National University, JMT Consulting, and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join us every day so we can have these conversations Miko Marquette Whitlock, if you were joining us in the green room, you're from Atlanta. You bring a lot of interesting things to our sector along with a really interesting ability to understand tech and all of this piece. But you've written an amazing book with the title How to Thrive When Work Doesn't Love You Back. Talk to us about it. Yeah, it is. Wendy, it's like for me, it's like, oh, yes. Well, so the reality, so let's take a step back and just acknowledge why the sector exists. I mean, we exist because we are feeling a gap that's not met by other sectors in terms of really improving life and wellbeing for fellow human beings, for animals, and for the environment. And for many of us, that means that we're not chasing the dollars. We're not chasing a title. We're not chasing the idea of building an empire that's gonna take over the world. This is very personal for us, right? We wanna leave the world better than we found it. And sometimes one of the ways that we try to fill that gap is through self-sacrifice. And when we do that, it can feel like the work doesn't love you back. It can feel like you love the work more than it loves you back. And so that was really part of the genesis for the title born out of the things that I've been teaching over the last several years based on my own personal experience, having worked in non-profit and government, most of my professional career, seeing the turn, seeing the normalize, burn out, people go away, people leave the sector, people come back, rinse or repeat that cycle. And then having my own challenge with that and reaching a point where I recognize that, you know what, I could literally drop dead from overwork. And my legacy would be that I was good at answering emails and managing projects. And that was really a wake up call for me. And so the book is really a a reflection of my journey and trying to figure out how do we do this in a different way? Because if we can't, who will be around long enough to actually get booked down? Who actually be around long enough to actually make some of the changes that we wanna make sustainable? You know, Miko, it's really interesting. I know a lot of organizations are starting up internal book clubs. I mean, they were so popular in the 80s and 90s. This might be something that's a really good kind of internal book club thing to get started because we don't talk about this. I feel like when we do, it makes it seem like we're weak or there's like a fear. And we've got to start bringing this to the table. I mean, do you have a sense of that? That there is, this is something that we don't talk about until we've gone so far past that we can't recoup you know, our psyche? We talk about it in terms of the proverbial water cooler, where we complain about it, right? We have great solutions, right? And that's one of the ways that we talk about it. But one of the things that the book is really intended to do is to really change that conversation, right? So let's talk about and let's provide a common shift working around what are the challenges, but then let's actually talk about some of the concrete things that we can actually do right now. The book is intentionally framed for anyone, no matter your level, no matter how many years of experience that you have in the work in your organization. And the really asks you the question, yes, we have these other things that may not be in our power to control or change as a one individual, but what do you as an individual have the power to change right now in terms of your experience and how you're showing up in your organization and how you're taking care of yourself? What do you have the power to control right now? Interesting. Well, let's get into that. And Wendy, I know that you and I I mean have kind of touched around this as well. What does the change framework look like and what should it look like so that we can have this conversation? Absolutely. So, I'm sorry, go ahead and go. No, I just wanted to make a point. The book is bringing to a space a proactive conversation, right? Not that reactive, we're already in it. Julie, you brought that out and I think that's gonna be the biggest thing to make this change. So, let's hear about it. Yes, so the framework, you mentioned the change framework. So the change framework is based on the acronym for the word change. And it is a roadmap for what I describe as well-being while well-doing. So we're doing the good work but the question is how do we take care of ourselves? How do we embody well-being while we're also sustainably well-doing? And this framework is really a collection of six commitments that, in my view, are what it means to embody mindful change-making. So we're intentional about not just making the impact and sort of jumping head first into the work but we're intentional about how do we do that in a sustainable way that leaves us nourished and sustained as well. It's not a sequential process. And actually one of the ways I think about this is sort of like the dashboard of a car. You have the odometer, you have the oil indicator, you have some of the other things that indicate how well the car is doing and getting you my 80 point B. These collection of six commitments are simultaneously, we're operating at a certain level in each of these commitments, then we're embodying what I'm describing as change or mindful change-making, well-being while well-doing. So I wanna jump into what they are Julia, you look like you have a thought. Why don't I give you an opportunity to share your thought? I have a lot of thoughts. I mean, Wendy, it's really an interesting thing to think about this in terms of inputs, right? And Wendy, you said it, it's like what the journey is, not like, oh crap, we've blown ourselves out, we gotta get out, right? Yeah, it's not a postmortem conversation. Let's, yeah, yeah. So that's what's exciting about this that we're given, we're saying it's okay, and here's how we do it. Let's have the conversation. So yeah, so good. So give us those six things because I have so many more questions, but can you help kind of give us a real short snippet of what those six things that we need to be looking at might be? Yeah, so those six commitments very briefly, the C is about connecting to your Y or reconnecting to your Y. Your Y is a fuel that inspires you to do the changemaking work and it's a fuel that helps you to get through the inevitable ups and downs along the journey. The H stands for honoring your priorities. So when you're clear about your Y, you can be clear about your priorities. Many of us have a mile long to-do list of things that look great, that are interesting, that are exciting, but we have to be connected to, what is our connection to our Y for that season and are we honoring the priorities that are actually aligned with that for now? What can we say no to and what can we let go of, perhaps for later or for not at all? The A is about acknowledging your limiting beliefs and your fears and your doubts. We're really good about doing the out of work, right? The meetings, the projects, writing the papers, the funder reports, all those things, but we're not so good at prioritizing and really acknowledging what about that imposter syndrome? What about the very real resentment that you might feel toward a particular colleague, right? What about grief that you might be experiencing because you lost a loved one, right? All of those things impact how we're showing up, whether we're acknowledging them or not. And so this particular commitment is really about, let's have an honest conversation about those things. Let's have a constructive way that we're processing those, that mental and emotional gunk so that it is not playing in the background as stress or sort of weighing us down where it feels like we're sort of driving with the park and break on, so to speak. The end about negotiating boundaries. So you can have a really solid connection to your why. You can be clear about your priorities, but if you don't have the ability and the courage to be able to effectively say yes and no and make space for those things, then you're setting yourself up for failure, right? You're sabotaging yourself. So you have to be able to negotiate those boundaries, to renegotiate those boundaries. This is an ongoing process that we are always engaged in. The G is about generating space to go within. So again, to this conversation about what I think of as inner work and outer work, this particular commitment is really about, we're really good at making space to put the calendar. We're really good at making space to put the other work on the calendar. But how good are you with making space to put that walk on the calendar or that yoga or that time to just sit in silence or that time off, right? To have a half day just to come in to work a little bit later so that you can have some time for yourself or maybe you're a caregiver, right? And maybe you need space to take care of those obligations that to renew yourself in those ways. So thinking about this particular commitment in terms of generating that space and then a final commitment, E, about involving well-being while well-doing. This is when we bring all these commitments together and we're focusing on actively, consciously, mindfully embodying those day in and day out. So when we bring those together, connecting to your why, honoring your priorities, acknowledging your fears and limiting beliefs, negotiating boundaries, generating space to go with it and all so that we can embody what I describe as well-being while well-doing. That is the change framework in terms of the commitments. Wow. Okay, Wendy, I'm ready to jump in on this, aren't you? I am. I'm trying to keep myself in the chair. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's real. I love that you put this together that way because I love what you also said. It's not necessarily sequential that you can look at this from a different lens so that you can achieve all these things. It's not like a one and done, right? It seems like it's a path and a journey. Let's kind of jump back into ChangeMaker burnout and how common is it? What do you see? Is it on the rise? Is it on the decline? Is it real across the board? What are some of your thoughts on this, Miko? So it's indeed very real. And with the training that I do with organizations, one of the parts of the process is I do a pre and post survey. And so I have literally data from hundreds of ChangeMakers that I've worked with directly in addition to what we know about what the research data tells us, right? And in some ways, the issue with burnout is exacerbated by folks that are in the change-making sector. And when we think about the pandemic as an example, what I'm saying is that there's lots of unhealed and unacknowledged trauma, right? We have essentially, we have returned to normal, right? But we haven't really addressed the underlying issues that were exacerbated, that sort of brought to the surface with the pandemic. There's lots of anxiety and fear, particularly about how relevant are we gonna be in an age of AI, for example? How relevant are we gonna be in the age of changing and shifting models? How relevant are we gonna be as we think about a new generation entering this particular space, for example? So these are all things that we are dealing with. And for many folks, it feels like it's unrelenting. It feels like a swirl of things that are happening simultaneously. And it's like we're struggling to get our feet on the ground or we feel like we're constantly sort of trading water and we're trying to catch our breath and just sort of stay afloat. And no matter how much we do to get ahead, it still feels like we're behind. That is a perpetual feeling that many of us feel. And I think one of the best places to start with is to simply acknowledging that and acknowledging that we're not alone in that particular experience. That in and of itself can be a healing place to start when we talk about this conversation. And so, Miko, I'm really curious to find, like when you spoke of keeping to our why, right? When we were talking about that, how much of that change that's happening is really affecting these change makers. We just change makers, right? Are we not, is something not constant? As far as that, why? You've seen that in your research and in your engagement with professionals, nonprofit professionals? Absolutely. And I just use and go back to the example of the pandemic, for example, and this idea we're swirling. My friend and colleague, Nicola Brown, uses the word swirling to describe the combination of these things happening simultaneously. And one of the challenges with that is that we can be so caught up in simply trying to maintain and simply trying to do the basic things and to keep the trains moving that we lose sight of why we're doing the work to begin with. So then it becomes monotonous. And so then it becomes like another thing that we're doing. Then it becomes a drag. Then it becomes easy to gripe and complain and not do anything about it. It becomes hard, perhaps, for some of us to get out of bed in the morning and we become disconnected. We become disconnected from large emissions that we're serving. We become disconnected from the people that we're serving and that agitation creeps in, that resentment creeps in. And then that has a sort of a downward spiral effect in terms of our ability to actually be impactful and our overall wellbeing, right? So like if you're not connected to the work and you're feeling resentful and you have all these negative emotions and thoughts to sort of building up, that has a very real impact on your overall wellbeing and your ability to just notwithstanding the work to be able to sustain your life. And I would imagine that speaks into how that pours out to others around you. So now it doesn't just stay here. That's, yeah, yeah. Yes. And so then we end up with the passive aggressive things that are happening and we end up with interpersonal workplace conflicts that believe it or not, in addition to the structural things that we talk about often that many of us are familiar with in terms of burnout. One of the things that contributes to burnout is interpersonal conflicts in the workplace, right? And what you just pointed to Wendy, those things can build up and it may not necessarily be intentional but it comes out, right? And it manifests in different ways. And so it can come across as being micromanagy and come across as being passive aggressive and that's not healthy for workplace culture. Mm-hmm. So I want to follow up on Wendy's comment and that is, you know, how do we recognize this when we're in the throes of it or we're maybe even like pointing in that direction or our team members are? So because I think if, you know, some of these traits that you mentioned, I'd be like, wow, that's just a trait. That's not on the journey to burnout. And I can see saying something or recognizing it in your team or yourself, be like, oh, I'm not burnt out. Yeah, that's not me, right? Oh, it is. That's somebody else. So how do we drill down and figure this out before it's too late? So some indicators that I think are maybe a good place to start. We talked about, for example, let's just work backwards because we already sort of mentioned these, put these out there, but let's talk about the snippiness and the passive aggressiveness and sort of the short temperate nature, for example, that can be an indication of where people are in terms of burnout. People taking more unplanned time off, sick days, for example, that can be an indicator as well where you're seeing more people sort of taking those up and it's not planned, right? It's sort of, you know what, actually I'm not able to come in today for whatever the reason is, right? And it could be legitimate reason, but if you're seeing an increase in that, that could be an indication. Withdrawal in some cases from your colleagues and your individuals, right? People who were once sort of connected and chatty, that all of a sudden you see that they're withdrawing, they're not as engaged, right? That those are things to be thinking about. Poor work performance, right? And one key indicator connected to this is, okay, now we're constantly missing deadlines, right? And we're having to readjust, for example. Everybody. Exactly. Those are things that we're dealing with. And then at a larger organizational level, this can feed into, for example, a high rate of turnover, right? And so there are different elements of what could be a challenging workplace culture, but sometimes this high churn can be an indication that burnout is one of the issues that folks are dealing with that's contributing to the shift in culture. So in terms of indicators to look at, those would be some things that I will point people to in terms of indicators of, okay, well, you might be in a situation where your team or your organization might be at a place of burnout. Wow. I mean, it's kind of frightening to think about this, but it's logical. And I think we've kind of all been there, if not ourselves within our team, and to kind of draw these points across and pull them together, it really paints a picture for me, Miko, that maybe I hadn't realized. It's easy to say, like when you said missing deadlines, it's easy to be like, oh my gosh, she can never meet a deadline or he can never get that done. And then you spin in a different way, you lose your compassion or your ability to engage to make a correction, right? Yeah, truly. It kind of becomes punitive. Okay, this is my last question for you and Wendy and I are chuckling because we gotta know is there anything really to work-life balance? Can this exist? Is it a unicorn? Should we stop using this phrase? I mean, what help us to understand this? So the short answer is, we can find our version of balance, right? Based on what we need in a given time and in a given season, we can do this individually and we can do this collectively as a team or as an organization. And one of the things I wanna use as a frame is to acknowledge that when we use language like work-life balance, which I use, because it's just shared, we have a shared understanding of what that means or what we're getting at, right? Or work-life integration. Sometimes what we're presupposing is that there's a separation between taking care of ourselves and doing the actual work. And I wanna offer to you that actually taking care of yourself is the work. If we can take care of ourselves, if we can nourish ourselves and we can do that in a sustainable way, then it makes it possible for us to fill up our cup and to have that overflow into our work and into all the other areas of our lives. And in terms of where we start with that, I think a good place to start is with simply acknowledging where you are, acknowledging what's in your control, acknowledging what's not in your control, simply acknowledging the reality of your situation and your circumstances. I think that's the first place to start. A second concrete thing we can do is to really give ourselves grace and recognize that we're doing the best that we can of what we have right where we are and to expect anything different is actually unkind. And so we can extend that grace to ourselves, we can practice giving that grace to ourselves and then that positions us to be able to extend that grace to other people because we recognize just like the person you mentioned that's missing those deadlines, now what if they're actually doing the best they can right now? What if that's the best that they can offer right now? What would it mean to actually approach that with a bit of grace and a bit of compassion? And from this place of acknowledgement, from this place of grace and compassion, then now we have the bandwidth to begin to say, okay, well, what's one small stuff I can take right now to begin to shift my experience with work? What's one small thing I can do right now to begin to shift my experience with how I am taking care of myself even in the midst of what seems to be overwhelmed even in the midst of what seems to be sort of unrelenting onslaught of things that are sort of coming at me. What's one small thing I can do? And you literally sort of build from there. You know, as we wrap up here, I'll just share in terms of those small stuff, people might be wondering where do you start? Yeah, yeah. I think one simple thing to do is, most organizations have some type of HR function, whether it's a person or someone in your organization that's coordinating HR. I think someone who's really struggling with where to start set aside 15 minutes in the next seven days. I challenge you to set aside 15 minutes in the next seven days on your calendar, reach out to your HR person, and simply ask the question, what are our benefits that are available to us through our healthcare plan? What are the benefits that are available to us in terms of our employee assistance program if we have one of those? And to figure out if you're struggling with mental health, if you're struggling with balance, in a lot of cases with EAPs, for example, maybe you're struggling with caregiving, right? And you need extra resources to support with them. Maybe you need a support group. There are lots of untapped resources in those particular areas that we aren't tapping into that one small thing can make a big difference. The second thing is, if you have health insurance, sometimes with burnout, yes, we have systemic issues in our organization, but sometimes there's something else going on with us physically. And so we need to go to the doctor and get checked out and to understand what else might be going on. And if we can address those issues, then it becomes easier for us to begin to address the issues in the workplace context. Okay, Wendy, I've gone to church today with Miko. I mean, I'm just sitting here like, you know, I'm taking in what you're saying. I'm thinking about my own work environment, my ecosystem with my family, what I see in my community. I am horrified because I can identify a lot of what you said, which I, before this conversation, I wouldn't have identified. Well, I think we defined it differently. You said that earlier, Julie, like we call it something different or that's not what that is, or I have it under control. What I love today, Miko, is how clear and simple. It's not that these changes necessarily are easy, but simple. There's nothing complicated about what, you know, what you shared, but to be able to redefine and take a look and say, oh, that's what's happening. Here's a place, let me step on my toes. You already did. Being curious to ask those questions and not assume because we're in the throes, but you gotta pause to be able to do that. So, man, just so good, so good. Yeah, really amazing. I'm really thrilled, Miko, that you have explored this, I think, within yourself and our community, you know, the nonprofit sector is so full and rich with a lot of great things, but a lot of tough things. And I feel like you must have really spent some time, you know, thinking about this. And I'm so blessed that you've articulated this back to us, right? Yes. I mean, if I could offer a parting thought here, which is that I consider this to be an embodied work for me. This is personal, right? So yes, there's evidence space behind it and framing and all those wonderful things. But I tell my clients and the folks that I work with that this is born of my own personal experience, my own journey, working in the sector and working externally, helping other people address these changes. And to your point, Wendy, about the simplicity of this, I wanna remind folks, because sometimes we can overcomplicate things in the sector and we feel like if it doesn't require a gazillion meetings or you know, hundreds of emails or if it's not a hundred page report that is not complicated enough and that we're not doing it right. And I challenge people, what would actually fit on the index card in terms of your action plan for the next 90 days? Okay, second one. As an individual and as an organization. And my contention is that if you have more things that could fit on an index card that you have too many things that you're focusing on right now in terms of addressing this particular issue of wellbeing while well-doing. Start with the one or two things that you can do next 30 days, 60 days, 90 days and then you can increment and you can build from there. This applies again, both at the individual level and also at the organizational level. Man, wow, foundation, foundation stuff. Woo! Yeah, this is good. This is really good. And now yet you've given me something else to think about. I'm gonna get out that index card and really think about it and then put it in my office because that's powerful and I love that. And I think you're right, Wendy, you know, it's so easy to swirl out of control when you have all those things coming at you versus, you know, kind of filtering it through, figuring out what's the most important thing and what you use the word commitment which I thought was interesting, Miko, right off the bat, right off the bat because it's a dance that you have to be willing to do and not just talk about it. So this has been amazing, Miko Marquette Whitlock, founder and CEO of Mindful Techie. Check out MindfulTechie.com. You have a beautiful website, my friend and then you can learn more about the book and where to find it. I'm assuming it's available on Amazon? It's available on Amazon, yes. Awesome, well, we're very proud of you. I mean, writing a book is a major achievement, so bravo, bravo to you. Hey, you know, bravo to our presenting sponsors as well. They include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Staffing Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy at National University, JMT Consulting and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out so we can have these amazing conversations like we've had with Wendy Adams and Miko Marquette Whitlock. Just really interesting and a great reminder, but I think, Miko, we're gonna have to be reminded again. This isn't a one and done, right? It's an ongoing work, absolutely. It is. Well, every day we sign off with this message and today I'm thinking about mental health when I say stay well so you can do well. Thank you, everybody, we really appreciate your time.