 Welcome to MIT Supply Chain Frontiers from the MIT Center for Transportation and Logistics. Each episode features center researchers and staff who welcome experts from the field for in-depth conversations about business, education, and beyond. On today's episode, Katie Dade, who leads the Center's Women in Supply Chain initiative, speaks with Julie van de Kamp of US Express and Trisha Branigan of the Hershey Company about how leaders can be champions for positive change within their organizations. Recorded on International Women's Day, the three share insights and challenges of use to anyone who manages a team. Take it away, Katie. Thank you for joining our International Women's Day Leadership Panel, Supply Chain Champions for Change. With us today, we have Julie van de Kamp and Trisha Branigan. Trisha Branigan is the Vice President for Global Procurement for the Hershey Company. In this key leadership role, she is responsible for all aspects of procurement, as well as the responsible sourcing strategies and practices which support the company's sustainability priorities. Trisha has more than 25 years of experience spanning procurement, engineering, and R&D at craft foods, dean foods, and white wave. And she is the chairperson for Hershey's Children's Miracle Network Fundraising and is the leader of the company's Women in Supply Chain and Technology Mentoring and Development Program. Julie van de Kamp is the Vice President of Customer Experience at US Express, where she manages the team, which she handles all customer-facing interactions in a nutshell. Julie and her team create an experience customers have with the organization, which spans across booking freight, service exceptions, collaboration, and coordination with brokerage and OTR operations team, and many other daily touch points. Again, thank you to everyone who is joining us today. My name is Katie Date. I'm the leader of the Women in Supply Chain Initiative at the MIT Center for Transportation and Logistics. We aim to create knowledge and tools for people interested in creating more gender balance in their organizations. So first, I will go to Trisha. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your career? Absolutely. Thanks, Katie, for the introduction and a pleasure to be here with Julie and yourself. I started my career after a chemical engineering degree and I joined Kraft thinking, okay, I'm going to do engineering probably for my career. So if you had asked me 20 plus years ago if I would be in a procurement role, I would have definitely had a lot of questions about that. So it's been quite a journey. After working in engineering, process engineer, product development for some time, I really wanted something different, something that provided me greater exposure to a more, the broader base of the business and really gave me broader exposure to the global operations as well. And so I landed in procurement. I moved over, I did capital equipment procurement, which was kind of like a nice fit and maybe an easy segue for me to get into the function. Thinking that again, you know, it would be a cross functional assignment. I would do this, I would learn a ton and then, you know, I could bring all those learnings back. That was my intent. And I loved it so much. And I just kept finding different roles and different ways to provide high impact within the function. Thrilled to be here at Hershey, I've been here now seven years and have recently taken this role leading our procurement organization last summer. So thanks for having me. Thank you, Trisha. We're so happy to have you. Julie, if you can tell us a little bit more about yourself and your career. Yeah, thanks. So I actually started out in transportation and in trucking while I was still in college at the University of Wisconsin. I grew up around it and I spent my summers and Christmas breaks interning at a trucking company doing anything that needed to be done. And when I say anything, I mean making delivery appointments. This was as we were transitioning to paper lists. So scanning driver logs as their packets came in every day and scanning their fuel receipts and scale tickets and filing paperwork, whatever needed to be done. And after that, I swear would never be in transportation or trucking. I was not into it. And after I graduated from the University of Wisconsin, I actually ended up taking the job right out of college at US Express and our pricing group. Still pretty determined that it would be applicable to any industry so that I would try that out and then take those skills somewhere else. Had no intention of doing this long term. Pretty immediately really fell in love with it. And not just with US Express and with trucking, but with the industry as a whole, with the pace of it, with how I could see how it really affects our economy and our lives. So spent about five years in our pricing group here at US Express helping to evaluate and update and create some of the new tools that our group used. Then I was really lucky to get the opportunity to go over to our brokerage group and focus on business development. That was a really fun time in my career. It was a relatively new part of the company and it was growing very quickly. So I was lucky to have the opportunity to really look around and just see what needed to be done and empowered to be able to jump in and do those things and create new processes and work with our sales team and our operations team to bridge a lot of gaps that kind of a new quickly growing part of the company needed. And then in October 2019, moved into this role, created this new customer experience group and have been managing it since then. That is a little bit about me. Thank you so much. As you both know, we collected questions and one of the questions that kept coming in was why a career in supply chain? Why would I want to go into supply chain? I'm wondering if either one of you have any thoughts about that? You know, one of the reasons I really entered into procurement and then of course, you know, head exposure to broader supply chain work is just really the breadth and impacts that it has on really any organization. So if you think about the key processes of buy, make, ship, sell, we're three of the four. The breadth and the complexity and also the rate of change. I think has been what's really kept me interested and very curious to stay engaged and involved on many levels. And so, you know, it combines, there's technology, it combines, you know, the people skills and the influencing and negotiating and the innovation and there really isn't anything that it doesn't cover. And so I think anyone who's considering it will, I think, find a lot of opportunity and breadth within the supply chain function to really grow and develop their skills. Yeah, I agree with a lot of those things that, you know, it is integral to our economy and our way of life. One of the things I love the most about it is that it's fast pace. And we're really in an opportunity right now, particularly in the transportation side of it, where it's ripe for innovation and disruption. It's new every day. It's a new challenge, a new problem to solve. It's relatively complicated in that there's so many facets to it, which, you know, which keeps us all, you know, interested and on our toes. And then I think just the scale of it that you sort of alluded to as well, Trisha, that there, it really opens up a lot of opportunity to lead to affect people's lives and career goals, help your team develop because it is so broad reaching and there's so many different facets of it. You don't necessarily think about how much it affects our everyday lives and all the things that keep us going and everything that you purchase and everything, all of the materials that went to the manufacturing facility to create all the things that you purchase that, that all of that is involved in that. And it's necessary for all of us to keep going. And, and so when you step back and think of it that way a little bit, it's pretty rewarding. So switching gears a little bit. I'm wondering if, if each of you could tell just a short story about how having an ally or a mentor throughout your career kind of helped bolster you to that next level. I don't necessarily have one specific story, but I do kind of, I'm very lucky that I'm on a team right now, where my counterparts who run sort of the other portions of our customer sales marketing pricing group. And I have a really good working relationship and can trust each other and can give each other really candid feedback. And I think that that's a really important part of your career, right? And it's not all negative feedback. It's not all positive feedback. It's constructive. Sometimes it's like, gosh, that was great point in that meeting or, hey, I see your teams doing this, if you did it this way, would it be better, right? And I think it's really important to be able to surround yourself with people who can give you that constructive feedback. It's not always easy to take, right? But if you truly do want to continue to grow personally and professionally, it's immensely important. And I think it's also important to have, you know, allies and learning from the people that you work for, and then in the team that works for you as well, if you're lucky enough to be in a leadership position, and that's what you enjoy, that they should be an ally for you as well, and they should feel like you are for them. I want feedback from my team personally and professionally, and they expect it from me. And I think that that's really an important part of being allies with someone in the workplaces that you can give open, candid praise and, you know, critical feedback. So, and then I think it's important to have allies in your career outside of just your actual workplace. Have, you know, I'm very lucky to have a very supportive husband who's an ally in my personal life and my career, right? I'm very lucky to have a mother-in-law who I admire hugely and can ask for advice and my parents. And then other people I've worked with a long way who might not necessarily work still in the exact same industry or within my organization but who I can still reach out for and get kind of a non-involved opinion when necessary. So, I think it's not necessarily important to just have one specific ally or one specific mentor for your entire career, but kind of a network, both, you know, within your organization and your current role and then within your life outside of work that you can lean on as well. And, Julie, I would just add to that, and I love the way you were thinking about it in terms of, you know, the kind of this whole group of people that help support you throughout your career. Early in my career, I think one of the big leap forward moments that I had was where someone really took a risk on me, put me in a role that I didn't necessarily have 100% of the qualifications to do, but took a chance and really then provided me the support within that role. So, it's one thing to take a chance on someone and then kind of throw them into the mix, but then also really provided me the support, gave me tremendous exposure. So, this was a leader within our organization. It was a critical time. There was a specific initiative at the time that had really company-wide exposure. And this individual, he would literally bring me to these meetings with our senior executives. And I was, you know, five years into my career and the job, and I was like, you sure you want me to come? I'm going to really stand out in that crowd. But it was probably one of the biggest changing moments for me where I really was able to, there was no pressure on me. I was just able to observe and listen and understand the thinking and how people were looking at the situation and then the recommendations to go forward. So, that is a moment for me that really has left an impression and one that I want to make sure that, you know, I can also do for other people. I would just echo what she said and then also, you know, always kind of think about what are those small moments that you might be just an everyday normal part of your role, but could really have a significant impact on someone else if you're to bring them along. Great. Thank you. So, I'd like to kind of twist that question a little bit. Both of you are in leadership roles. So, if there were women in your organization, which I'm sure there are, that are looking up to you and are like, how do I get Trisha or Julie to be my mentor? What advice would you give to them? Because I always tell people that it needs to be something that happens naturally. Totally agree with what you said that, you know, you have to have a natural connection and really that can't be forced. But I would always encourage people to first think of what do you want? What do you want out of the mentor relationship? Is this a person? Is that the best person to help you with that? And maybe that's where you start is just a really kind of informal conversation or a meet and greet and a connection. And it's not so much an ask of, hey, will you be my mentor? But it's an ask of these are things that I'm really curious about or, you know, I'm trying to figure out what the most effective leader looks like. And then letting that sort of lead to really a natural dialogue. And I think, you know, most often you will see that people are very, very willing to help. And so if they're understanding where your needs are and if they feel like they can't help referring you to someone who might be the best person to do that. So that's what I have found effective is just, you know, starting with what do you want and then having a conversation with others who might be able to provide you a perspective on how to see how to find that out. Yeah, I totally agree. And if what you're looking for is career advice, right, or development feedback on what you need to work with to get a certain place, know where it is that you want to go doesn't mean that you want a specific role. I think that I think very often when I'm talking to people, they're like, well, how do I be the next you or how do I get to be the next fellow executive or I want to VP title or I want a director title. I would never approach it that way. Personally, I would make sure that you're always approach it in what attributes do you want in a job that are going to be fulfilling and make you happy? What are you working towards as a career goal? Because you don't even know what roles may become available, you know, and what is out there. And I was kind of trying to think of it and look at it that way as well. Do you want the opportunity to continue to, you know, manage and lead people and grow in that regard? Do you really want something that's especially strategic or, you know, analytical or what part of the roles are fulfilling to you that you want in a career, you know, your future career opportunity versus working towards a specific job or a specific role and ask for feedback on how to develop those things to get you there. I think that that's the most important thing when you're thinking about career growth and what you want to do long term is what attributes of a role do you really want. I love how you brought up to Julie the idea of like moving forward and sort of the skill sets and competencies more so than the role itself. And I have heard from people say, but I don't know what I want. And I actually hear that maybe more often than you might guess. I don't know what I want. So okay, so maybe you need to explore what that looks like or what it could be. And so in those situations, I really advise people to, you know, just sit down. It doesn't have to be this intense discussion where you're sharing your resume and trying to sell somebody on you. It could be very a simple discussion on what do you think makes people successful in this organization? Or, you know, what have you seen others do really well and are there pitfalls you suggest to me that I should avoid? And maybe that just starts it. Maybe you just start to learn and meet with different leaders all on this quest of learning versus trying to achieve something. And so if you are in that place of I don't know what I want, I just I want to figure that out. That might be a place to start. That's a great piece of advice. Megan Carr wrote in and she is asking the two of you, how do you rebalance personal and professional life components? Yeah, I don't know that there's a great answer for this. And I don't know that there really is a true balance. If I'm going to be totally transparent, I think it's kind of a juggling act to an extent. And I think that it's a matter of one, hopefully working in a place that's supportive of your life. Our company has really looked at people as people and I make sure that I really try to do that with my team as well. Obviously, there are certain roles that have to be eight to five. But the fact that we can do that from home now in this world makes makes a huge difference. And then I would also say that even more than work being supportive, you've got to have the right support beyond that. You know, I'm very fortunate to have a husband who's very supportive and who we share a lot of our household and particularly the responsibilities of our children, right? And I'm very fortunate. I also work very hard at making sure that we have the right resources set up to help us support having the appropriate childcare for our kids, but can't be perfect at everything. And I might just have to like go buy whatever it is to send my kids to school and I'm not going to be the mom that made cookies and that's okay. I think it's a matter of sitting down and deciding like, what really matters? What has to be done? What has to be done well? And what doesn't really matter? Like, do I have to be in this meeting today? Or can someone on my team sit in for me who's equally as qualified who can give me, you know, a brief summary of it, which would likely be good career opportunity for them to sit on a meeting like this so that I can go to whatever Halloween party that probably will matter to me in six months versus this meeting might not. So I think it's really a matter of like keeping perspective and then deciding what really has to be done and what's important because life is busy and crazy and work is always going to be busy and crazy and really prioritizing what's important in giving that some thought versus like getting stuck in the whirlwind every day of all of the things that just have to be done. Yeah, I love it. And one of the, one of the mantras that I have is the, and Julie was really hitting on this, is the do-dump delegate model. So being very choice-full, this I need to do. Is it my 80%? Is it my 100%? You can decide on all those things and when you need to get it done, but this is something I've got to do. The dump, I would call it in two buckets. They may be the things that you're just not going to do. You're not going to do right now. It's just not going to happen. The stack of books on my shelf that need to get cleaned out so I can, you know, put the kids' papers, it's just not going to happen. The dump is, in my opinion, less about what you're not doing but more the permission you're giving yourself to not do it. My daughter came into my office at home the other day. I think it was like one or two o'clock or something. She said, what are you going to be done? I was like, okay, we have this conversation every day. And today it's happening earlier. It's like one or two. I said, it's not going to be for a while. I will tell you that. I talked to her and I said, look, I hope that this is actually setting a good example where you can see your mom working and really delivering, you know, that hopefully I'm setting an example by also setting the boundaries is what I'm trying to say. So sometime is just giving yourself the permission, setting the boundaries, being okay with that and then following through. And likewise, likewise, if there's two hours, I might be able to, you know, sneak in the walk with the dog or taking, you know, Joe to his basketball game or whatever it may be. I'm not going to feel guilty about it at all. And giving myself the permission to just do it because I don't know when I'm going to get those two hours again. So just make it happen and take advantage of the moment. That's great. I'm hearing so many great themes coming out of this. The biggest thing I'm hearing is letting go of that need to be perfect and knowing that no matter what we're doing the best we can. And like you said, putting great, great things out into the universe and setting a great example for your employees, setting a great example for your children. I think that's, that's so important to give everyone a little bit of grace and a little bit of flexibility. So moving on to the next topic. So I'm wondering if, if the two of you can share a story of a time either you've challenged yourself or you've chose to challenge norms or chose to challenge someone who has maybe pushed your boundaries a little bit. This is a daily event. I think that all of us have, whether we're challenging a work norm or challenging a project or our own selves for that matter. So I work very closely with many of our suppliers and our supply base. Those might be material supplier service providers, the whole gamut. Through the course of the year, Hershey has an amazing inclusive culture and there's always room for improvement. But also being, you know, with third parties, I also see many other cultures and many other practices and behaviors. My example is when I was with one of my leaders in the organization and it was the first time I was being introduced to a specific supplier. We had a conversation. There were four of us. They were introducing me to kind of the need of this particular business unit and the entire conversation. This man never once made eye contact with me and looked directly at the person who was his primary contact on my team. That person happens to be a man, but never even almost acknowledged my presence. And just the whole thing was so odd. I think these are all opportunities for all of us. And so I went to the person on my staff afterward and I said, Hey, did you notice that behavior by the way? Like at all. No, he didn't notice. Did notice it at all. It was a wrapped up and a conversation and never even occurred to me. And I said, No, it wasn't that you needed to necessarily do anything, but but here's the moment. I think the moment is recognized. I'm fine. I can stand on my own and I will make sure that this relationship is off on the right foot. You're a dad, you have daughters, you're a director in this organization, and there are many other people in this group who may not have your title or the relationships that you do. And so I would just ask, this is such a great moment for you. I would just ask that you think about that when you're interacting with others. And it wasn't a criticism in any way. It was just kind of this like heart to heart that we had afterward. And I think finding those opportunities for the learning moments and a level when people do that with me as well is is is probably the most impactful way we can challenge each other, especially in the in the spirit of equity and inclusion. Yeah. Did you notice any shifts in like the next meeting that you were in? I really took it upon myself, right? So the next meeting, okay, I've been introduced, I saw this dynamic sort of happening. And so, so then it's up to me, right? Then it's on me to really make sure, okay, I'm now educated myself on the business or beyond the introduction capacity, then I can create my own seat at the table. I think what hopefully has been more impactful was maybe less with the supplier, but more on my team member, right, to just continuing to sort of recognize that these are all possibilities, whether it's in a in a meeting with a third party or whether it's a meeting internally. And so that I think Katie is where it was most impactful. That's great. Yeah, I love how additionally you challenged yourself to make sure that you are prepared and you you made your own seat at the table then too. And I think that that's an important point also is honestly challenging the status quo. It really just means looking around and seeing what needs to be better and asking the right questions, right? So my current role I started in October 2019, it was a new department that the organization decided we were going to create. And I went out on maternity leave in May of 2019, within a week of being home from the hospital, my my boss at the time called me and said, Hey, so I know this is crazy timing. And I don't want to add stress on your, you know, maternity leave, but I also would never want to not consider, you know, talk to you about it, which I found very, you know, really fortunate that I was in that opportunity. How do you feel about coming back and considering this role coming out of maternity leave and the timing and all of that? And then I wouldn't want to, you know, sell your time away from work and how fortunate that I was that they still, you know, walked that kind of almost uncomfortable line of still considering me for the role, talking to me about it openly. And I think that part of that story really the important part to me is that I challenged myself then and thought, Oh my God, like, do I really want to do this at this time of my life with all that coming on, you know, going on? But I thought, you know, vice versa, if they'd called my husband a week after us having a son, there would be no question, right? This great job opportunity comes up and he would do it in a heartbeat. And I would support it in doing it. And he was very supportive of me doing it as well. So I think that you can undertake a lot. And I think that either way. And I gave a lot of thought. And I, like I mentioned earlier, have a really good family to bounce ideas off of. And basically, they came up with like, you're gonna work really hard, whether you're starting a new department or whether you're in your current role, because that's who you are. So no, it's not too much to take on with a brand new baby or coming back from maternity leave. And so glad that I did challenge myself and make that decision. It would have been really easy to just say, no, there's too much change going on in my life right now. I'll stick with what I'm comfortable with because, you know, I want to adjust at home. But so glad that I didn't. And that I continued to challenge myself, you know, personally and professionally at the same time and challenge kind of what people think you need to maybe be focused on when you first have a new baby. And you can challenge yourself and you don't have to think about what people expect of you at a certain time in your life or how they expect you to manage your personal and professional life. You need to do what you can challenge yourself to do and feel comfortable with. Yeah, I totally agree. You know, as you thought about, you know, what would my husband do if he was coming back from parental leave? I think that's I think that's a great way to frame it. And actually, that kind of leads into another question that we got. They asked, what are your suggestions for ladies who are preparing and upgrading to go back to work after a sabbatical? I think the first and foremost, and we're sort of been heading in this direction is don't apologize. Don't apologize for being away. Don't apologize as if you've missed something. And actually, I would think of it all in terms of what has us done to enhance everything that you're now doing moving forward, reposition it in your head that it's not a challenge or something you're going to have to struggle with. But it's actually an advantage. Now, having said that with that right mindset going in, I would absolutely be over-prepared for anything and everything that could come your way. So that doesn't negate the need to make sure that you're up to speed. Has anything changed? Have you networked? Have you looked at what's happening within your space, your field or your industry? Because that's also critically important. So your interviewer or your supervisor, whatever the case may be, is going to want to make sure you're committed and you're in and you're engaged. And that's one way to demonstrate that. Thank you. So I have two questions that are specifically addressed to each of you. So the first one is for Julie. And they're asking, so you've worked in a male-dominated sector transportation for the majority of your career. Can you talk a little bit about how you developed the leadership skills to grow within your career? First and foremost, being a female in a male-dominated industry has not in any way been a hindrance to me. If anything, I feel like it's been an asset. Part of it is I guess I've never felt that there's nothing that I can't do as well within the industry. And I think that that's really important. But I think that there are some things that I can look back on that I kind of did develop and grow into through my career. Developing leadership skills and growing in your career, I think that you can learn from everyone around you. And I think it's really important that you take every opportunity to do that. I've gotten the opportunity to work for a lot of really, really amazing people and learn good and bad from each of them, right? And as long as you can distinguish which is which and pick up some of the very best traits that each of them have or some of the very best leadership styles or skills that each of them have that will work for you, then that's really important in developing your your leadership ability as well, right? You can learn from your colleagues, your counterparts. Get that feedback from from your team and the people who work for you as you're as you're learning to be a leader so that you can improve and then also really keep your eyes open and learn from the people who you get the opportunity to work for as well. That's great advice. Thanks, Julie. Procurement isn't as male dominated, Trisha, but I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. You know, it really depends on the area though, Katie. I think the function may not be, but then there's specific industries and verticals that are that we work with, especially, you know, agriculture, perhaps dairy, you know, and while they're still growing segments, I would say, you know, I think part of what all of us try to do is to reach out in ways that we can connect and also bring others along. So that's what I personally try to do, whether it's, you know, women and dairy programs or whether it's other venues and events where we can, again, create those connections, create those networks and kind of raise all votes with the type. Building on that supplier diversity and inclusion has taken kind of a front of the house stage over the last year. Can you talk a little bit about Hershey's program? Because I know you do a lot to source from diversifiers. Yeah, absolutely. We've had tremendous progress over the past four to five years. We've more than doubled our diversity spend. And what's even more amazing is that women-owned businesses in particular have a pretty large share of spend. So that could be because of, you know, kind of the types of work that they're in, or it could be just that that seems to be where we're able to create value mutually. But we've got about a third of our total diversity spend is made above women-owned businesses. We have a long way to go. Look, like there's nothing perfect about this and there still is room for growth. And I think one of the things that we have found to be tremendously successful is to just start. And that sounds basic and simple. And actually that's the beauty of it is just to start. What gets to be difficult with a company of our size is that, you know, you're sending out bids and you're looking at proposals that are for pretty large portions of spend. And not all of the privately-owned and diversifiers really have the scale to support a large portion of that or a smaller portion of that. So what we have found to work very, very well in building this up is one just to start somewhere. It could be $500,000 worth of business out of the $20 million category. It could be a million out of the $50 million. But whatever it is, is to start to have the two of us, the two companies gain experience, really create those lessons learned and then build from there in a successful way. That way, sort of no one gets thrown in over their ski tips and, you know, the setup for failure. So I think that's one thing. The second thing is where there may not be opportunity, where we're working with really large public companies, because of the type of product it is or the capital intensity nature of the raw material or something like that, we encourage those providers to be sourcing diversely. So maybe we can't necessarily in that specific vertical find a diverse supplier, but we certainly can influence our partners and expect more. And this is yet another area where we continue to raise the bar and say we've all got to do more. That's great. Thank you so much. We did have another question. Any advice that you have for young women in college looking to enter this field? And then also, what would you tell yourself when you were back in the beginning of your career to help you to kind of focus and look forward? I think one of the most important things we can do for other women and for other groups who are underrepresented is be visible. You know, it's important for me to show up today on International Women's Day. I'm thrilled to be a part of the MIT session with Julie, but I think part of it is really being visible. And if I were to give myself advice, I think I would say continue to be open. I always took the philosophy of trying not to close doors, whatever that sort of looked like at the time and whatever decision that was. And you certainly need to move on, but not shutting a door such that it was locked forever. So what are the things and what are the areas where I can gain experience, but I'm not necessarily closing something off and try to do that for as long as possible? One, I think it's a great way to gain experience. Two, you never know what you may find. You truly have a passion around until you try it. And then three, gaining that breadth of experience is critical in supply chain. There's so many moving components as we talked about earlier and the complexity and that's the great part of it. That's the fun and giving yourself that room and that time to learn and grow and being open to that. So hope that helps. So I don't know that I have anything hugely profound to close on. Trisha, thank you for doing this with us. I honestly took notes on a lot of the things that you said. I agree with being visible and I agree with as you have the opportunity to lift others up. I think that's the most important thing we can do for any of our colleagues, but particularly for other women who are coming out of school and who are looking for careers like this and wanting advice. The other advice I would give is, in addition to the cliche, things like work hard. I think be aware of your perception, but don't over question yourself. I think women have a tendency and Katie, I think you even referred to it a little bit earlier of shying away from stepping up, from speaking up, from doing a lot of those things and questioning their reaction to everything. And I would say that as long as you feel like it is a professionally appropriate reaction, don't over question everything that you're doing. And other than that, I mean, I really think it's just a matter of use data to make your decisions. In addition to your instinct, we have it for a reason. Like I mentioned earlier, I think for me more than a hindrance, it's really been an asset to use a lot of my natural abilities in being a woman and the way that I can look at things a little bit differently in a male dominated career and go with that and use it to your advantage versus trying to suppress it so much. Thank you so much. And thank you both. I hope that all of you take this beyond International Women's Day and really go out into your organizations. As Trisha mentioned, you know, lift kind of as you rise. So make sure that as you're going out there and kicking butt that you're making sure that you're you're bringing somebody along with you and helping to support both the people above you and below you. So with that, thank you so much. All right, everyone. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this edition of MIT Supply Chain Frontiers. My name is Arthur Grau, Communications Officer for the Center. I invite you to visit us anytime at ctl.mit.edu or search for MIT Supply Chain Frontiers on your favorite listening platform. Until next time.