 Hallo and thank you for keeping us company. This is why in the morning we are talking about governance and devolution. My guests this morning are the Philipin Zangizimir Mca, Makina Ward, Embo County and Justice Minor Governance and a policy analyst. We are looking into how devolution has been working for the last decade. Do you remember 2010 at the promulgation of the constitution that you are using today, We came up with a devolved system and a number of commissions. But now we focus on the devolution. We want to see how it has been. The brief rundown of the things we'll be looking into is the county allocation funds and how they have been used and the impact they have been there. We want to look into even the leadership, the governance, how the system has been working. Is it a good thing moving on forward? It's now 10 years. Actually, we are six months short of the anniversary of the 2010 constitution. Welcome to the program. Send in all your comments or questions to all our social media platforms. At Y-254 channel, my handle is at Morani Hilawi. A very good Monday morning to you. My name is Dereva Hilawi. Welcome to the program. Good morning, gentlemen. Good morning. It's good to have you here. Before even we get to the issue, we are celebrating the life of our late president, Daniel Moi. And very fast, I want to get your comments and your opinions. I'll begin with you, Nzangi. What will you remember the president with? Thank you. I'm Honobu Nzangi-Philip, MC for Makima Ward and allow me to first say good morning to my constituents and the embu people. The retired president, Daniel Moi, is actually somebody that has got a history to tell. But to go straight to your question, I'll remember him for three things. One, his philosophy, his near philosophy of peace, love and unity. I'll also remember him for his love for the environment. Remember, he's a slogan of Katamoja Pandambili. And I will also remember him for being firm in his governance. Even his ministers and everybody else would know if you met yourself every other time, the president can act anytime. I think those are the three things that I really remember him for. Awesome. You mentioned of governance, something that you'll be talking about here this morning. Yes, I'm just a sminer. I come from Bonnet County and I want to join the rest of Kenyans in mourning the great man that was Daniel Durotisha Moi. It is not just a mourning. It is also a celebration of life because having lived for more than 95 years, so to speak, though we feel the great loss at the same time, we want to celebrate this life, we want to celebrate this leadership, we want to also thank the entire family of Moi, for having allowed the great Muze Moi to offer his unique service as vice president for more than 50 years. So we want to say Moi was a great man. He lived and led in difficult times. I'm sure you have read and maybe worked a lot on how the difficult journey as a vice president and the perseverance and ultimately coming through as a president for me, it is a lesson for all of us, the young people of this country. Otherwise, I also want to like my colleague said, thank him a lot for fostering especially the girl child education. I think he came in when the issue where the girl child was at the bottom of priorities as a country, but I think he lifted the need to ensure that we Kenyans begin to invest in our girls and I think today we can credit him for a lot of schools that are like Moi girls, Moishongroi in Bomet for example. I'm sure even in this county, I'm sure there is a Moi girl something. Actually I trained in Moi High School Bureau which was a mixed school then. So we want to thank you very much. Okay, now 10 years down the line since the promulgation of the new constitution, we came with the devolved system where we have now 47 counties and looking into the 47 counties that we've had for that particular period of time, a lot has been happening and I want to begin fast in the health sector. It has been a devolved system and over time we've seen our doctors going on strike, we've seen nurses going on strike because of delayed payments from where you said, would you say devolution has worked for us? Well, you know devolution is still the new kid in the block. We came from a unipola center of power to what we would call multipola center of powers that we had the center of power in Nairobi and as a result of the new constitution we devolved power and resources to the 47 counties but we must also accept that it is work in progress where power goes, of course, governance must follow. It's been a challenge of course setting the necessary governance infrastructure to be able to accommodate the new system and of course the challenges that be devolved the center of power seem to have in a manner followed the we are envisaging the same challenges in the county government. Health sector is a critical component of devolution. It is actually the falkram of success or failure of devolution as a system. But what I must confess and say the devolving of health sector was both good and bad good in the sense that the decision making on how the matters health issues are run was devolved. The tragedy of devolution is once the governance resources was devolved to the counties there is something that people may not have known then they began decentralization so that the decision that used to be made at the sub county level seemed to have been moved upwards at the dining table of the big men of the counties so that today a decision that would have been made comfortably and easily at the district hospital or the county revival hospital the decision making has been centralized at the dining table of the big men, the governor maybe and the others. So to me the challenge is both that once we decentralize power to the counties what the counties did was some of them decided to centralize so the critical the critical question that must be discussed and we must find solution is the decentralization of power within the county systems itself so the tragedy of devolution as I said is the decentralization from Nairobi to the counties and then at the counties what they did was the conference, the paradox is they centralized the decision making and placed it at the dining table for lack of a better word of the big men of the counties so to me it is good in terms of it was wise to decentralize the other challenge of course is that I do not believe that sufficient resources was allocated or followed of course when you devolve responsibilities equally you must devolve resources to follow the responsibilities in my opinion I do not believe that there was sufficient resources that was devolved to be able to accommodate the integrity responsibilities that the health sector and the people manning the men and women manning the health sector that we given them the sufficient resources so to me I would the BBI is proposing a health commission council to be able to to provide at least a unified council over time you kind of feel the devolution hasn't been that good but it is in progress it is work in progress and I said the irony of this decentralization of decision making within the county government I do not know what my friend has but I think in most of the counties I have gone I have seen the tragedy of decentralization of decision making I know that even in some hospitals for the hospital to be able to buy basic equipment and they need to refer to some big men in the county called the COS to be able to be given the go ahead to be able to procure very small items that before the devolution an hospital be able to make decision right at the hospital now because of the devolution that decision making has been centralized not devolved centralized let me hear your views in regards to how the devolution has worked and actually there's something he has pointed out as an MCA I'm sure you sit in this panel and you can listen in when a proposal has been brought to the house how do you go through it and what are some of the challenges that would go through to make sure maybe a certain proposal has passed in terms of maybe paying the doctors and the nurses thank you we are saying that yes devolution was the best thing that happened to this country and yes devolution is working but again like he said in my own local dialect we say that everything would be the image of the owner by this I mean if you really want to look at the devolution and its success again look at the CEO of the county because again what we have in Kenya is that through the spirit of devoving power and resources was extremely good and for sure we can see results tangible results today things that used to happen in Nairobi are happening in Mbu town are happening in Mbu county things that used to happen in Nairobi are happening in Mombasa decisions are being made closer to Manaiji but then there comes another challenge that what is the character of the person that is heading the county what is the character of the governor himself let me just be clear what is the character of the governor himself because again the person sitting at the helm of the county will influence decisions I want to agree with my brother here that when we decentralised power and resources to the counties again that other problem of now further decentralisation to the smallest units is still a work in progress because there are some people who do not still feel like if they release power again downwards remember it's good to be clear that when we changed the constitution when we brought in a devolution we did not change the people in Kenya so we did not import any other person from outside Kenya there to bring to this country so still the job that we have to work on currently is the attitude the culture that we've had there before if we are able to address that one that now I am a servant I do not look at how much am I able to get from this how much power there are some people who when given you'll be a CEC or a chief officer in some position and you feel like now for you to have that power and for you to be felt then everything has to be where you are I think that is where the challenge is and if we are able to address that one things will be okay in terms of the health sector that you are talking about it was a good thing partially in terms of devolving the health sector because again like us the members of county assembly we are able now to get involved we have the people at the grass root we are able to get involved in trying to influence the decisions that are made in terms of addressing the needs of our people but now the challenge comes in you come up with these ideas the challenge again of failure to decentralize further the services to the common man closer to the mana inch comes in which again is a decision that takes a lot of our discussion between the county assemblies and the county executive what are the priorities of the governor what are the priorities of the county assembly the priorities of the county assembly will be to make laws that will help the governor do his work in the best way possible so I still feel he talked of a proposal to have a health commission or something else but if we do not address the culture that has bedeviled our country in Kenya today we still have commissions that are managing other programs but do we see these commissions not only addressing the salary issue for the doctors and the nurses or are we only are we also addressing whole service across board the best thing Hillary would be to look at it at what are the challenges that are affecting all services across the health sector not only the salaries the salaries and whatever there has been a problem in terms of releasing funds from the national government to the counties and everything else as we talked today many of the counties have not paid their salaries to or their staff because maybe money has not been released from the national treasury now speaking of governance justice would you say the policies and the ideas and the proposals the governor will have in the counties should be informed on the need of the people and not them because I kind of feel the things that the governor would want to do are not the same that the public would want in terms of priorities but let me also in terms of the devolution also came with one big problem the big man central that must be said you see even the first titles the governor chose the titles of nobility is excellent it is meant to massage someone's ego that you're an excellent the titles I was a CEC and I was of course handed over an honorable title I'm sure he's an MCA if you were to address an MCA in a village and you forgot God forbid you forget the title Honorable you can as well the title of mobility is attracted to the development of this country but everyone else once you join the public system you want from the MCA to the president they even needed a flag yes and a flag and of course are riders that big man central that people hated the central that one man was enjoying that but what we did was to to decentralize again the tragedy the big man central at the county level if a governor is not resistant to the urge to behave like the big man that becomes a big challenge and I want there are very few governors who have been able to resist the urge to behave like they are the demigods of their counties usually once you are installed as a governor of course you then to get what the court points and the hangers own who then begin to massage your ego and and you begin to as you said I did want to say that you begin to centralize the power so that even the governance structure the the governance structure in terms of whether it's vertical or both vertical and horizontal because governance for example at the department of the health sector there is administration for example there is roles for example ideally in the county government structured in a vertical manner which is counterproductive because the structuring of governance must reflect the need for interdependence the correlation collaborative nature of governance so that the man sitting at the helm of health must begin to talk to the man who is in charge of roles because before you get to the health sector you need the road network if the man sitting at the helm of the active sector must begin to be in work collaborative and closely with the man sitting at the helm of the roads because then before the farmer that we at the county must begin to offer service of course you must think a road either to get goods from the farm or then get services to the farm so the the one biggest problem that I think the pollution is suffering is that we are yet to really concretize the governance structure the governance structure is as I said the dining table of the governor that the governance structure is almost the governor himself when you talk about the governance structure in most counties you are talking about the governor and of course in terms of decision making like procurement in most of the counties have become the chief procurement officers that the people in charge of procurement are merely doing the paperwork the instruction come from the court points the hangers on the friends and the relatives of the governor so that the people sit who are meant to offer the service and begin to engage in the procurement process get instruction either from the governor himself or from a friend of the governor or from the p of the governor or from the chief staff of the governor because they had a challenge that is belivelling the counties that people who have never worked anywhere in this world suddenly are very big men who have unlimited access to the governor so that the decision you can begin to see the symptoms of those people around the governor in the decision that the governor makes in the instructions that the governor makes you can begin to see the foot prints of his friends and of course we talk about corruption in the counties as vis-a-vis the governor structure and as I said the people are meant the CEOs in most counties who are meant to run the procurement process I'm sure I know of a number of friends from a number of counties who have testified that they stop being the people in church of departments but they make reference almost on a daily basis I even know of a governor who is who every item you need to procure he needs to make a knot not because he wants to render service but because he wants to monopolize the tendering process and ensure that at the end of the day he is the net beneficiary of the tendering I don't want to say proceeds but of course now he is the monster of kickbacks and some governors are even going ahead to institutionalize kickbacks but every CEO when procuring must have in mind the governor will receive a call in the evening to check on whether the client behaved in a manner and he sufficiently rendered the service not in terms of that the road network is okay but did he deliver that which I need to so to me the governor structure has become the governor the governor structures and therefore even in the new in the new it is solved to then begin to look at the constitution what we need to look at before when we talk about increasing the resources to the counties we must begin to seriously interrogate the governor structures at the county level then you are sufficiently guarded and insulated from interference from either the governor himself the relatives of the governor or the court points as I said so that you are able to confidently deliver service in the department and in the responsibilities that you have been given I want us to go to a different matter because I feel this is kind of close to Monainchi we are talking about 100 transition to secondary school it is believed the MCs are given about 20 million for that particular case and a few things for development has it worked is it working and what has been the impact of these funds to the locals in the first case I want to correct amit that MCs have been given any monies for such kind of a thing that is that is not true because again remember education is not devolved education is a national function what is devolved is only the ECDs and ECD and maybe the polytechnics the village polytechnics everything else about education is a national government function so 100% transition and how MCs have been given money 20 million to do that that is not exist there is a myth out there again MCs do not have any kitty that they manage do not have any funds within their own self within their own that they manage the only thing that MCs do is to help during the budget making in proposing so it is wrong to say the MCs get 20 million every financial year for their wards because it is said 20 million of which around 12 million is used in education and 80 is used in development of which they give bursaries that is a myth maybe I may give an example of embo county we kind of have an agreement with the governor that 20 million could be a myth now that is emanating from what is happening in embo county that we could have some 20 million as word equalization that every word before the governor does any other project that every word is guaranteed of having some projects worth 20 million you see that kind of a thing again implementation is the governor and his departments it is not the MC the MC is only involved during the proposal of the projects during public participation and during the budget making process maybe you can propose this one can go this one this one can go here because within the 20 million the governor can give you leeway not to propose the project that you feel that can be done within your words but it is not directly in the MCS office it is good to make people understand clearly because again there has been a game that has been played by several governors so that they can intimidate MCS so that they can make MCS cow down and look like now sheepish cow down through their teams that MCS are not working they have days they are not working but again at the end of the day the back stops are the governor because the constitution does not allow anywhere we do not have anywhere in the law that MCS have like CDF kind of what MPs have that one is not available but I think when it comes to busries it is within that 20 million MCS may propose that out of this 20 million and out of the needs that I have for my world maybe 4 million can go to busries remember again we are only complimenting what the national government should be doing because busery again is a national government function and don't forget that CDF is actually has only two functions left that is education and security now education needs in the county are far much than what maybe the CDF can afford and that is why several counties came up with a law that is helping them compliment through busries what the national government is doing now for every idea for every project that comes in we will have a long hand that is in Kenya we speak of corruption every project that is coming in someone will have interest in that particular project now just as what do you feel about corruption because in your statements you mentioned about corruption and the governor is becoming everything we have seen one of them has been impeached by the senate we don't know who is next but we truly can't see there is corruption in the counties is it the policies that are there and is it something that we need to look into moving forward maybe the embassy is once again we need to reevaluate the governor's structure at the county we need to insulate the officers the men and women who are serving diligently at the county level the chief officers the directors who are consistently and constantly bullied by as I said sometimes the governor himself or the friends of the governor to award tenders in the money in which they prefer themselves it is the governor may not sign any document but the amount of power and privilege he will surround will then be able to either exercise power directly to influence some decision in favor of his preferences and as I said you will see the fingerprints the footprints of the governor in almost entirely the major tenders in account you will you don't need to be an intelligent man and when you talk to some of the officers and I'm sure you may be interacted with one or two people working in the county level you can without going further discover that the amount of intimidation the amount of interference the interest of the of the men around the dining table is so massive that every if you go to a county you will realize the staff the one of the most unpopular people in a county usually in some of the counties is the governor himself why because either he is aware of the kind of power peddling being pended around or not but you will hear that once a tender has been given out for example or maybe they have advertised a tender that is the time you will see the friends of the big men hovering around those officers intimidating and of course demanding that they award a particular tender or service to a particular individual and of course they will always mention and sometimes they mention but sometimes it is true that they have instructions so to me the biggest we need to insulate the officers and of course and of course also to begin to give room to the governor himself to begin to sign some of these documents because where the governor has a leeway to interfere is that he is able to transfer an officer and even to design him I know of an officer who was recently given a very strong designation and when he didn't play ball and of course remote that he's been given special duties so this is one governor was decided to maybe for example I'm not sure when the officer mentioned I realized that it is because I also know of a governor who was sure and of course he gave matting orders to some officers a day before they were meant to open a tender six of them because he wanted the right the right officers to sit in that board and it's nothing you can do because the power almost allows the governor so where the governor plays around is the power to reshuffle the power to even assign you for example today somebody wakes up and say I have assigned you some special duties at the gate for example today order the reception from here to the reception and then call it special duties what a drama and therefore to me we need to reinvest again in the governance track so that the officers maning the positions and the mandates they've been given are able to execute those mandates without looking right left at the center and of course knowing that if I do not play ball play along I will be disnated an officer with special duties shitting at the governor's reception all right Philip Temand again I've heard the governor's cry out we need more funds we need more funds and the national government has been saying you have funds show us what you have done with it and lest we are not doing this the funds that have been coming to the counties so far have they had any impact and is there need to increase them or we need to look into how now we can manage the funds that we get thank you Hilary one good thing is that it is true money will never be enough the issue is about the prudence in utilization of funds I want to agree that we need more money in the counties than in the national government because if you notice if you look at the constitution that the service that were devolved are the most critical issues that touch on the common man and I think that is where we need to pump more money more resources so that we can be able to engage and address the challenges that are affecting the common man at the grass root but I also want to say that the national government I know you are quoting the president because at some point he told the governor first show us what you are doing with what you have and I think the president in some way was right if I buy from my brother he is talking like he is already working in a county in a county executive I don't know but the truth is there is so much power that is being misused by several governors I don't want to say everyone I have no problem with like what he said that the big man said whatever I have no problem with somebody feeling big but I have a problem with you feeling big then not giving the right service to the person that you are serving let me fill your weight what is that I am getting if you want to call me Honorabon Zangi if I really want to feel that being honorable is a good thing let it be felt by the person that I am serving that I really qualify to be called that person because being called again or who else we are human beings we cannot wait to go to heaven to be called honorable or everything else those things will happen here on earth but then let whatever we are doing reflect the service the titles and whatever names we get let them reflect the service we are giving Hillary will require more money in the counties but truly the governors must also share the cartels that are working around them you realize like my brother said that this money whether we are given more money by the national government the governors do not address the problems that are affecting they are in house problems they will never because again some governors still want more money to help their people get more money in their pockets but the money does not treat a common person because you realize the decision making like he is saying in most cases is not from the county executive committee where the governor chairs you realize that decisions are made you sit with a CEC member in most of the counties in this case I am not talking about MBC alone you sit with a CEC member who feels like the chief officer who is below him is more powerful because the chief officer is a closer friend to the governor and you see the chief officer is the accounting officer what does that mean the governor may not have a lot of interest in the CEC who does not have powers on the money he has powers on policy and everything else he wants to be directly involved to put a friend where money is being utilized so that games can be played there you look at some issues that are happening and I think the president was right to make that statement because you look at the pending bills that are being paid by the counties you may realize Hillary somebody got a job worth 100 million last month and has been paid but somebody who worked for the same county government for a project worth 2 million or 3 million has not been paid reasons where we have 100 million there is big returns and there is a possibility that some kickbacks like he called them I don't know why they are called kickbacks so these are the issues that we need to address but again we need to empower the county assemblies and we have to solve these problems I think the solution is not only in the county assembly is not only the executive we also need to manage our political system you see political parties have a way of actually intimidating governors have a way of intimidating the county assemblies in such a way that sometimes these institutions are not able to work freely what do I say let me use an example of a party like Jubilee Jubilee is the biggest party we have now in the country in terms of membership a decision will be made by the party persons that are not even elected in the county assemblies and will affect the operations of the members in the county assembly with the fear of you might be thrown out of the party I think we also need to revise the law managing our political parties because these political parties are also assisting in corruption a governor will be more respected in the party and a governor will want to intimidate members of county assembly from his party so that they move with him and what does he do he will use the political party to intimidate members in the county assembly so that they are not able to do prudently so there is a mix of issues that help governors go around issues and I don't want to say only governors even the president himself can easily misuse the political party system so that he can intimidate the members of parliament who are supposed to oversight him so we also need as we want to blame the governors as we want to blame other leaders we also need to look at our laws for people to misuse so that again we are able to solve the problems from where they are created not from the person that is really emphasizing them so yes we need more money but still we have work to do to prudently spend what we have just as I want you to respond to the same question as we wind up we are running out of time do the counties require more money and do you feel the funds that have been allocated to them so far have been impactful enough I guess it is a good thing to have more money it would be the right thing again to devolve more resources as I said because with the billions that is trickling down to the counties again we have not been able to entirely solve the problems that are facing one engine so I don't think that even if the entire budget 3 trillion was to be devolved I don't think it would be sufficient so yes we still need more money at a cross route as one engine and I think as he said then we need to enrich and strengthen the structures of the county to ensure that these monies again are utilized in a more prudential manner so that the money do not belong to the county executive to not belong to the governor though some may want to behave in a manner to suggest it is the money that is on transition to manage in terms of services in terms of like he said bursaries so this is money it can only get to manage through the offices that are relevant either through education either through the national structure or the county government structure so yes absolutely it is very critical that we devolve more resources to the county level because then we will be able to as he said most of the challenges that are facing one engine as he said need a lot of resources and I'm sure the resources that has been trickling down to the counties the challenge again as we have said is not being used in a manner that is envisaged in law and of course the ceiling of the loopholes so that no coin no ceiling is misused by anybody either at the upper echelons of power or at the middle or even at the lower that everybody begin to appreciate that this is money that is meant for the poor man the manenji, the orphan that sick mother elderly father child that this money do not belong to us who are able in so many aspects but the money belong to the needy and of course the needy can be the youth for the youth is categorized as a vulnerable group because they have the necessary education but usually they don't have the resources they are rarely given jobs of course the one tragedy is the nepotism and of course the issue of cronism that the governor would want to give positions not to the young people but to the friends that he has worked with over time and I'm sure there is a challenge that cuts across that you have been given a governor and suddenly anybody who has ever been a friend you've been in a school together or you work together in Nairobi are all tripping down to the counties to be given positions as a result of having worked I know you and have known you for a very long time so any other position you begin to see the footprints of French you see the footprints of nepotism but it is a relative the mother to the mother the cousin to who and of course it is not addressed nepotism and cronism is going to be the killer punch and of course it is not we are out of time and I'm sure maybe next time we come the two issues the two tragic issues of nepotism and cronism should be addressed not as a matter of actions many thanks for coming apparently we are out of time I would have loved us to continue since there is more that meets the eye so maybe sometimes later we will see into how maybe if the funds are allocated to the counties as expected and has been requested we will see if they have or worked for us thank you so much back home for keeping us company they have been my guest Honorable Philip member of county assembly Makina Ward, Embu County and just as minor he is a governance and policy analyst thank you so much my name is Adereva Hillary good morning stay tuned Valice up next