 Host of Screen Time Reset. And welcome to our second episode today. On the first episode I explained the premise of the show, which I'm going to recap briefly because I forgot to mention an important point that's relevant to today's show. So basically the idea is that especially in the last 10 years we've fallen into this relationship with screens and tech where we're consuming maybe more than we ever thought or intended. We're starting to notice some of the consequences in our own life and research is also coming out. So this is new information. It's time for us to reassess our relationship with tech and create a conscious relationship where we really try to harness the benefits and minimize the harms. I also mentioned that I'm going to be focusing on families and children to start with for two reasons. First, that children are more susceptible to tech because they don't have the prefrontal cortex development to exercise self-control to say no. And second, because they're more sensitive to the effects of tech. Now that's what I didn't explain last time that I want to briefly touch on today. They're more sensitive to the effects of technology because they're still developing their bodies, their minds, and their nervous systems. And as we develop we're very sensitive to stimuli, external stimuli and environmental stimuli and tech is incredibly stimulative so it has a very profound impact on them. So those are the two reasons that this show will start by focusing on kids and families. And now I want to transition into the topic for today's episode which is the Waldorf education system and how it sets kids up for success in the digital age. And how this became interesting to me is when I started researching this topic I got interested into it and I got my research cap on and was digging for information and was finding a number of these harms and ways that tech can interrupt healthy child development. But there was a complete mismatch with what the media was talking about. There was still so much excitement about educational apps, individualized learning, which is fine. Not that there are no merits to that, but it didn't feel very balanced. So this disconnect made me question myself and wonder if I had somehow created this self-referential negative research bubble and what really gave me confidence that I wasn't making it up and that I was onto something was reading an article about technology executives and how there was a trend among them that they were shielding their own kids from excessive technology. So I got very interested in that because these are the parents in the know. They understand the tech industry better than the rest of us, where it's going, how it's affecting the economy, the skills you need to succeed in this tech world that we're all living in. And so it was really fascinating to me that a bunch of them were sending their children to Waldorf because it takes a tech-light approach and clearly they were sending their kids there because they felt like it was giving them advantages for the digital age. So that's what I want to explore in this episode is how Waldorf in particular and a tech-light approach more generally can actually confer benefits to kids in the digital age through first allowing them to take better advantages of the unique opportunities and tools that we have now and I believe honing children's human-competitive advantages, which are the things humans do better than computers, it's a key part of that. And the second piece is that it also you need to prepare kids to avoid the growing number of traps that line our digital landscape. So today to talk more about Waldorf and what it provides for children and how that's relevant in this digital age, I am very pleased and happy to welcome my two guests today. We're both teachers at the Honolulu Waldorf School, Yuka Otaka Bryce, who teaches second graders and Alicia Maley Thaduk, who teaches sixth graders at the Waldorf Middle School. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having us. Absolutely. So my first question is if you would just please explain to me and the audience what Waldorf's philosophy surrounding technology and education is. So with Waldorf education and our tech approach it really goes hand in hand with each other. It's sort of complement each other. With the Waldorf philosophy, I mean it's been a global independent school movement that's been happening for like a hundred years now, so it's sort of really deeply rooted. But what I love about it is it sort of creates this merge of academics and arts, experiential hands-on learning, and kind of creates a very strong foundation for the children of building creativity, building critical thinking skills through this foundation of imagination, and creating lifelong learners. And what's really exciting is with our education system, it's such an active educational process where the children are really deeply engaged with all of them themselves. And technology tends to be a passive experience where they're just sort of receiving information or receiving images, and so it contradicts what we're trying to do with the children. And so in order to have that. Sorry, especially at younger ages, right? I know previously we talked a little bit about development, right, and the developmentally appropriate tact that you take at Waldorf. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Right. So the curriculum is all catered towards the individual needs of the children and where they are at developmental stages. So it's really important that we bring technology at those developmental stages appropriately well. And so they need sort of a strong, moral, social understanding and sense of responsibility before they can engage in the cyber world to become a digital citizen in the right way. Could I add something to that, Yuka? Absolutely. You know, one of the things that we're looking at when we talk about the appropriate and the appropriate time to bring something is, for instance, in second grade. When you look at a second grader's development, you're looking at somebody that's starting to toil with these ideas of morality. So Yuka's bringing fables, the silliness, these stories of the saints, you know, something that really grounds people and gives the kids something to enact with, something that really means something to them. Instead of like you're referencing with technology, you know, you can put a child on an iPad and all of a sudden they're having information put on them. So no matter what the developmental age, what we're trying to work with is the actual life of the child. When do they need to build social morality? How can we work with that instead of breaking everything up and making it very industrialized? Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. That does. Yeah. Yeah. So when do you guys see as the appropriate time to incorporate more technology and when you do bring technology into the classroom, how do you do that? And what do you see as the biggest benefits that technology brings to children? Well, there's a couple different approaches. So there are some Waldorf schools that will have children in eighth grade start to use technology, but before they do, they'll actually have them take apart a computer and completely rebuild it. You know, we do see in the seventh and eighth grade children beginning to type certain papers. So we try to work with them in that way, but more so, it's in the high school. So when you're looking at the high school, you don't want to just immerse the children immediately into, here's a screen, figure it out, although the way the world is today, they do figure it out in a heartbeat, no matter how old they are. A lot younger often. Right. Yeah. How many three-year-olds do you see with a phone watching something? So it's really a tool in the high school, and it is a tool of progress, right? It is a tool to serve them in their education as opposed to a tool to teach them. And you talked about them constructing the computer. What's the idea behind that? Why do you do that before they use it a lot? So not every school does that, but it's certainly something that I find very compelling. The idea is that the study of the eighth grade is a lot about the industrial revolution. So really looking outward into the world and becoming a global citizen. So the idea in response to the industrial revolution is to have these deconstructed, metallic plastic pieces and figure out how to put them together. So it's the ultimate jigsaw puzzle. And once a child goes through that process and they can turn it on and see how it works, well, that completely shifts your thinking of a computer. You've put it together. You are the master over the machine. The machine is not the master over you. I think that's so important. Yeah. It's a really powerful lesson. I like that. Yeah. My last guests were veteran teachers from the Virginia Public School System, and they had mentioned noticing this, that it's a lot harder to get students to come up with their own opinions or arguments than they said that actually a lot of long-time teachers are noticing the same thing. And I found that really shocking because it's so fundamental, I mean to come up with your own opinions. And I think the other reason that it's a little shocking to me is this issue of autonomy. I mean, if you're not coming up with your opinions, then you're someone else's puppet kind of, right? You have someone else's opinions, which is a bit scary. And a year or two ago, I had the opportunity to go to a Waldorf open house on Maui and it was there that I learned that Rudolf Steiner actually started Waldorf in part in response to World War I. He thought that propaganda was a huge problem and that the Europeans were sort of goaded by propaganda into this super destructive, unfortunate and unnecessary war. So he wanted to create an education system of independent critical thinkers that would be more resistant to propaganda, which I thought first of all was really cool, what a great reason to start a type of school. And second of all, it's so relevant today in this age of fake news, hyperpartisan reporting on both sides. So could you talk a little bit about how Waldorf, starting at a young age, creates and promotes and cultivates the foundations for children to be independent critical thinkers? Yeah. I love this one. I know you can just come onto our campus and walk into a Waldorf kindergarten and you see displayed out on the shelf these sort of simple nature-based open-ended toys. So a simple red silk becomes an extravagant cape or a butterfly wing. And you allow the children to create their own inner story. But as screens, you're participating in someone else's story. And consuming someone else's story. You're consuming someone else's story. Exactly. And so we had to continue giving these children opportunities to create their own stories. And in that way, we have a play-based sort of education system in the younger grades where they have to self-initiate their play. And so here so many children say, I'm bored, I'm bored, give me something to do because they're so used to being entertained and constantly given what they're supposed to be thinking from the outside. And so this self-initiated play is so important in those younger grades. And it gives them that sense of independence. It gives them that control and power in their situation. And another thing is if you walk around the Waldorf schools, you hear the teachers telling oral stories. So this strong, rich, oral tradition of passing down knowledge from one generation to generation is still really relevant for us because you tell a child a story, they have to take that, process it in their auditory senses, and create their own inner pictures. And that's work. You have to work at creating those inner pictures, and with those inner pictures is this capacity that is very important that you'll touch upon later. But I think another aspect that I really feel that it creates this quiet confidence in children is that the children are asked to create their own textbooks. So instead of these predigested material that's presented beautifully in this textbook where they have to memorize these isolated facts, we're asking the children to create something within themselves, to think for themselves, to integrate what knowledge they have received and output it into something for us to see and display. And I think when you give a child a blank canvas and a blank paper every single day to tell us, to show us their learning, I mean they come out into the world, any problem is solvable, anything is doable, they have this initiative and this innovation. I love that point about them creating their own pictures is work, because if you see kids listening to a story, that doesn't look like work, but it is for them. It's so much more work to have to create your own picture in your mind than to just see a picture and consume it. To me that really, that imagination which can often be I think undervalued, I used to I think undervalued education, people that are more rational, logical thinker, it seems like more of a thrill perk, but it strikes me now that that's coming up with your own opinion. There's a similarity that you have to come up with these things inside of yourself and maybe we used to take it for granted, but in this day and age with what teachers are reporting, we can't anymore and it's really critical. I think we need to take a break, but we will be right back. Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, host of Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. My show is based on my book also titled Beyond the Lines and it's about creating a superior culture of excellence, leadership and finding greatness. I interview guests who are successful in business, sports and life, which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness. Join me every Monday as we go Beyond the Lines at 11 a.m. Aloha. Hi, I'm Lisa Kimura, I'm the host of Family Affairs on Think Tech, Hawaii. Join us every Tuesday at 11 a.m. to talk about the issues that really matter. Everything from policies that need to be changed in Hawaii to the fact that we need better gender equality so that we can all have a better shot. Again, join us every Tuesday at 11 on Think Tech, Hawaii for Family Affairs. Aloha. Hi, and we are back. Did you have something that you wanted to add to that last one you were talking about about information or imagination? Yeah, I think one of the really important things to think of is imagination is just not only in the realm of the early childhood, the younger grades. It actually is a transformative property. So as we look at this idea of inner picturing, of intersensing, of holding an image or a story, what ends up happening as a child gets older, so I'm in the middle school, is now children are able to take a concept like physics, take these experiments that are being demonstrated and they're able to imagine and connect them in a conceptual way to what's in the world. So this is really the transformation of imagination, right? Right. So when we go out into the adult world, having that facet, that strength of your life knowing that you have that ability to create an inner picture means that you're an inherent problem solver. You're somebody that can connect the dots and all of that starts with really embracing imagination. And that's once again, I don't think it's necessarily intuitive to a lot of people that those little connections between different conceptual pieces, that's actually like a leap of imagination in a sense. Yeah, absolutely. And so it's so foundational. Absolutely. And that reminds me, Yuka, you had talked about how you encourage at Waldorf in the elementary school kids not to consume media during the week. Can you tell us about that? Yes. So the storytelling that we provide is actually a vessel of their learning. So they might learn the story of the golden goose and the letter G emerges, that letter sound coming out through that experience in the first grade. And what happens with those stories is we let them kind of settle into their sleep life and really penetrate deeper into themselves. And it cannot happen if it's competing with sort of these fast paced, really dense images that they see on the screens, it completely gets wiped away. And so to honor sort of their learning and to honor this space of childhood, we really want to let those maybe media related activities settle for something on the weekend. Yeah, that idea of competition I think is really powerful and something that I've learned about our memories is the more emotionally charged experiences, they're sort of higher up in the pecking order of our memory when we're going to sleep. And media is so good at hitting our emotions. I mean, there are people paid a lot of money with high budgets. And so little kids for the first time creating pictures in their mind, yeah, that's not going to be able to compete. And so I really resonated with that. And that also made me think of something that Alicia had said about the freedom that a Waldorf parent felt because their child was now in an environment where the norm was not to watch media all the time during the week. Can you talk a little bit more about the freedom that parents feel and the value of a community that's kind of on board? Yeah, it's interesting because you think about we observe other schools that are walking around where our children are in the same neighborhood and it's so fascinating to see this difference in the children and the way that they engage with the world. So particularly one thing I notice with my class is they would much rather be at the beach hanging out together. They would much rather be on a hike doing something together, engaging socially, and that's more preferable to them than to sit around and text each other. And how often do you see kids nowadays that sit in a room, in the same room and just text each other? So their preference is really to have an agreement that they want to hang out in person. Last year my class actually made their own technology agreements which was really interesting to see fifth graders agree that there was a need for it. Because they recognized that they were at this valuable age of childhood and they wanted to play. They wanted to be with each other. And I think the media, by making that agreement, it really takes a lot of that away from them. And they recognize that in a deep level how much they need each other as people. Yeah. And because it's so, I feel like a lot of parents are tackling this issue alone but it really is a community issue and so even if there was a school that was a little more tech liberal just the value of the fact that your class discusses what they think is appropriate and that the parents in the school are kind of working together, I think there's so much value in that across the spectrum of tech light to more tech liberal. And to make a shared agreement. It can be really iffy when we talk about technology because there's such a big split in the way we raise children and it's so easy to make somebody feel like they're a villain for texting somebody or letting their kids watch a movie or for not having their kids on a screen that they're behind, you know, there's so much of the back and forth. So I think no matter what realm you're coming from the most important thing is that you do create a community agreement. Yeah. A conversation. Right. A shared value. And your point about how your kids would rather hang out in person makes me wonder, I mean, one of the most I think obvious and well accepted negative consequences of tech is that kids are not as good at interpersonal skills. They can't make eye contact in the same way I was working for State Senator Russell Ruderman last year and certainly our business leaders were complaining about that. They'd hire someone they can't even make small talk with a customer, right? So do you think that Waldorf students retain more interpersonal skills and how do you see that? Oh, absolutely. We do a lot of service work out in the community. And one of the things I see is the kids when they're walking they look at every person that they walk by they look them in the eye, they say, hello, thank you. They help people cross streets. They do all of these things that we idealize and hope for our children that they would be that polite. And a lot of that does come from the fact that they're used to looking each other in the eye. We had an open house not too long ago and I had some of my sixth graders host, you know, walk around new parents around the school and it was so astounding. Sixth grade boys for a family to come, a complete stranger and they would look them in the eyes and tell them about our school, what we were doing and walk them around. And I actually had one parent ask me who was from outside of our community afterward did you pay them to say those things? How do you get them to look you in the eyes? And it was stunning because it's so atypical to have a child that really wants to engage and as far as looking long-term as an employer I would think you would want somebody that can look you in the eyes of somebody that walks into the room. Absolutely, they're asking for it and those independent critical thinking and those interpersonal skills those are some of the core what I call these human competitive advantages things we do better than computers and so things students are going to have to be relevant in the digital age when you're competing with AI and automation. Just to add to the interpersonal I think what it also builds is this capacity for collaboration and to be able to work with other human individuals and to work through problems together. Definitely. We need more collaboration to tackle on some of the issues that we have. Absolutely. One point I want to touch on quickly I wish I had more time I'll get to this more future episodes is the mental health question and then I'll ask you guys to wrap up with some suggestions and you know just the role that social media plays and cyber bullying and also these negative messages do you think that there are do you think that there are benefits or what do you think about the mental health question and how tech light can aid? I think it's multifaceted because I think of small children that are given technology that long-term range. When you give your child a device what you're doing is you're training them to have a sense of entitlement they don't have to imagine think through play what they have is something that you push a button and it does something for you so long-term what are we looking at in terms of mental health in children one you have children that have this kind of inbred sense of entitlement but even further forward we're now looking at how dopamine receptors are afforded by technology so if you're doing that with your children and allowing that opportunity to occur and re-occur well they become addicted to that feeling and they also become addicted to the convenience of never having to think for themselves of never having to move out of a place of boredom you know they aren't afforded that opportunity to use their imagination to create something to create fun and like you guys are saying kids won't know what to do and things boring and they're disengaged so I think that on top of the cyber bullying definitely is contributing I wish we could talk about that longer can you guys obviously sending students to your children to Waldorf is one thing you can do but for parents what are other things that parents can do to help foster imagination and to help their children thrive in this digital world there's so many ways these activities that I'm going to suggest not only minimize that harmful exposure but also builds a one-on-one connection with your child and so ways that parents can do this on a weekly daily basis is telling them stories from their day even if it's reading from a chapter but they're creating their inner pictures they're creating that sense of imagination giving them sort of open-ended toys and sort of artistic materials that they can kind of grapple with whether it be sculpting or whether it be drawing or painting that gives them sort of this initiative and a sense of empowerment let them be bored let them work that boredom that's an important one it's absolutely necessary and I think you can definitely see the effects of how children are so in tune with the vibrations of the world so instead of giving that media-dense vibration let them be in nature experience and sort of be in tune with their environment we have the ocean here that they can the endless possibilities of sand play and being out there with your family I think it's just such a great opportunity I think when we talk about family too you know look at your greater family you know who is your community around you that you can create an agreement with that you can create a beach day with that you can decide how you use technology how often are your teenagers going to be communicating with each other what's reasonable what images do we want our kids to see those are all great things that as a community and a family we can create a shared agreement and really help to build our kids up and I really feel that if you give them less they grow more and I think like we said we want to create creators for our society not just consumers absolutely and for parents that are interested to learn more about Waldorf how can they do that we feature some tours every Tuesday Tuesday mornings and that's an open tour we love to invite anyone we can have sometimes we have some students that will host we have a great veteran teacher that walks everyone around and actually tonight we have an open house that is a journey through the grades so they'll get an opportunity to actually experience Waldorf education with no technology and see how well they can do at trigonometry and physics well that's great thank you guys so much for being on and letting us get a better understanding of how Waldorf creates imagination in children and how that links to higher conceptual thinking and independent thinking and critical thinking which we all agree are such important skills as well as the interpersonal skills those abilities to look each other in the eye to cooperate as you pointed out Yuka I think that's really helpful for understanding and the community value again to parents that parents don't feel the same pressure that they feel more free because there's this open discussion and agreements going on in the school about a healthy amount of tech and media exposure that's all amazing and and I would just add connecting to what you guys said about the power of community in the school I wanted to remind my audience that this month I will be starting a facebook group for parents who want to elevate this issue at their school if you're interested please send me an email at screen time reset at gmail.com Waldorf is already doing it other schools can too again even if you're further on the liberal side of tech a few parents working together can really help elevate this issue and help make healthier a healthier culture working with their school for all of the students so I'd love if you would email me if you're a parent who is interested in being a part of that and I would like to thank you both so much for being here and thank you the audience for spending the time out of your busy day to listen to this very I believe very important topic that's affecting kids all over the country and the world thank you so much and till next time thanks Lauren