 It's, um, this is one that I'm Debbie dashinger. Welcome to visible visionaries book writing group. We meet twice a month on zoom and we have people from all over the world who come in. Because they know that they can write their book and write a highly engaging book from idea and inception to being published. And if you are interested in this class, you can go to Debbie dashinger.com look at the spelling d e b b i d a c h i n g e r.com slash Visible visionaries just to check in. Everybody can hear me. Okay, just give me a thumbs up. Okay, great. I want to make sure my microphone is close enough. If not But it is close as it needs to be. So I'm excited because we work on our books, people in the class read their work they get feedback. And they get guidance about the entire process of books. So not only am I a book writing coach, but I also once your book is almost done people come on board. So I can take their book to a guaranteed international bestseller and it's a beautiful package fully done for the author. And you can find out more at Debbie dashinger.com. If you guys don't mind in the beginning, just to mute yourself. That would be awesome. And how today is going to go. Yes, please mute yourselves and I welcome everybody today because it's a very special day. I've got a special guest here and I do this every so often in class because I find it even inspiring to learn from people who are out there doing this coaching work and seeing what kind of tips they have. You know, in ways that they inspire. I know we end up talking sometimes even after these classes about ways that these guests have influenced you. We've had publishers and digital marketers and today we have somebody who specializes in editing as well as storytelling both essential for any writer and for any book. So besides me and Debbie dashinger.com slash visible visionaries. Here's how today will go. No problem art at all. So glad you're here. So today, how how today is going to go is I'm going to engage in conversation with Susan like an interview, but it's a conversation and I'll be asking. Her a lot of questions for about the first 50 to 60 minutes after that we're going to open up to questions from you and then you can engage directly with Susan. And so I'll be operating the camera at the same time and it's on me right now later on will be on me and Susan and then when I open it up, you'll also be on camera. I want to also let you know, because I always ask everybody who comes into this as a guest expert, what do you have that my students might need. And so I think this is super exciting. So I'm going to tell you now I'm also going to put it in the chat and then I'll I'll do a reminder later as well. So if you are ready to have a portion of your manuscript professionally edited so you can test drive the editing relationship and get some honest but compassionate feedback on your writing. Then Susan's editing package is the thing for you. And as you guys know, I have told you and this is just another illustration, never put your book out and say I read through it. It's okay. I won't even take on an international bestselling book project, unless this book has been professionally edited. You've put so much energy into your book, you're birthing it, you know, I'm the doula for you to help it get out there. And why at the ninth inning, would you then say, I'm going to take the amateur way out, because there are so many books that get published, and they have typos everywhere. And it takes your book from the beautiful brilliance it is into complete mediocre land, and you're not worthy of that you are worthy and deserving of something much better. So Susan created something specifically for my community, it leverages Susan Crossman's decades of professional editing, writing experience and thousands of hours that she's trained in the areas of linguistics, reader engagement and personal transformation. So the result of your working with her in this package is a professionally edited sample of your manuscript, and it moves your book forward in significant resonant ways. She is a special offering you 5000 words for $497. I am going to give you this information again in the chat, so you can copy paste and save it. And should you decide to work with her. And I hope you will I hope you work with an editor. And you'll have this information at the hand and I think it's really nice because you'll get to know her today. And I think that's very important, you know, not to fly blind, not to hope you're working with somebody great but to know you've got somebody amazing on your team. Okay, and I'm also going to just do the very bottom URL independently so you can see it here too if you just want to copy that. Okay. Great. So good place to start. So with that, I'm going to welcome the amazing Susan Crossman to this experience. I'm going to pin you Susan. I'm going to pin myself and we will be together. How are you and it's so good to see you. Debbie, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here. A few familiar faces in this group so great to see you all here and especially so excited that you're all here in service to your books. I am so thrilled at the work that you do Debbie and know that we're really aligned on a heart basis and so it's always really an honor to be with you and to be here in service. Awesome. Yes and Susan and I just did, she does a tell a summit about book writing and all the facets and so she and I just did. She brought me in to speak to her group and some of you here saw the newsletter that I put out and you joined the tell a summit and you were there when I taught. So, you know, this is a nice full circle I think to introduce her to you now. So Susan I want to start with self editing recommendations that you have before an author turns their book over to an editor. What are the questions that a writer and author should be asking themselves over their draft copy as they begin revising their story or their novel. Great question and there is a lot people can do from a self editing perspective and you know there I actually I have an editing checklist that I'll make available to you to Debbie that you can circulate if you like. There are a lot of little things that you can do in order to make sure the manuscript is sounding good. For example, there is a dictation function in word which maybe not everybody knew and a read aloud function in word you can have you can read that aloud yourself or you can ask words to read aloud. And often our ears pick up errors or inconsistencies in the sentence that our eyes missed a lot of people miss mistakes when they're looking at it. And part of that is because we become so close to the information when we're writing that it's it is so much a part of us that we aren't tracking for. Yeah, is that going to make sense to someone else who doesn't have the story living inside. So that would be my number one record recommendation is to read it aloud or have word read it aloud. Start with that. That's so cool. And that completely echoes what I tell them all the time always always a don't edit while you write worse thing you could do and when you are complete for me. The way I explain it is it's about the musicality. It's the first time you're really hearing your book. You often gain a lot of wisdom hearing it, but there is something magical. I think we resist the heck out of reading our old book my God I did so much work I want to have to read it now there's all this stuff I went through it to and every time I sat down I was like whoa. That's a really good book. And I was able to see what needed to be changed with a dish harmony was with a harmony was something was needed. So I love that you start there. And just some of the elements that I took researching you. So people know is you know where does the story really begin. Is this adverb necessary. Is this eject at adjective. You have to put the emphasis on the right word is this adjective doing its job. Who's problem is it are the grammar and spelling perfect. Have I read my story aloud. Exactly. And, and pair it down. You know, a lot of people feel they have to be really fancy in their writing. No, actually, we want to keep those sentences as simple and straightforward as we can, using as little language as necessary in order to get the point across. And, you know, I think that's something that kind of throws a lot of people as they feel they have this mantle of being an authority on them and that means they have to be complicated. No, pair it down wherever you can. In fact, I worked in journalism for a number of years, daily newspapers, and that was the whole rule of thumb when I wrote an article, the next editor up the line for me would say, Okay, I want you to redo this and I want you to take out 35% of the words so hard. What. Yeah, I know. So when I was this little cub reporter anxious to make my mark in the journalism field it was like, Well, no, because those are my babies every single one of those words is important. And if it wasn't, they weren't, you can always make it simpler. And I would say, for anyone who's trying to improve their clarity in their writing, make it simple. And you'll have to forgive there's some planes flying over. It's very interesting. So if it gets loud I'm trying to mute and unmute. So the next question is, what questions should a writer ask a potential editor they're going to hire before actually hiring them what kind of process would you recommend. That's a really juicy question I really, really like that because you should ask your editor a lot of questions. Your editor is on your team. They are not some bizarre judge that sitting there going to think worse of you because the language isn't perfect the grammar isn't perfect. Your editor, ideally is someone who wants your success as much as you do. And so when you're interviewing an editor and I do recommend you interview two or three people, if not more until you find the right fit that you first of all ask them, you know, what's your approach to editing. How do you see this editing relationship because it is a relationship you are in a relationship with that editor. And it's a relationship that may go on for a very long time. I've had people that I've worked with for two or three years in the editing process as they craft their book and make it stronger and think of new ideas and they have that one conversation with someone that changed their life and then suddenly they go back and they want to add new elements into their work. So, you know, they can go on for quite a long time and you want someone who's really compassionate and patient while you're going through that experience as the author. So, number one, you know, what's their approach to editing. What are they editing for. So editors work at a number of different levels, we have the developmental sometimes called a structural edit, and that's the big picture look at the overall arc of the book. And I work at both a developmental level and a copy level, which is the granular level. But if you're hiring a developmental editor you, you want to know a little bit about how they see story, because that's where story happens from beginning to end of your book. There's a narrative, a journey you're taking your readers on. And you want to make sure that your editor has that sense of the big picture, the vision. I think you want to ask them a little bit about their experience. You know, have they had experience writing your kind of book. I am not a technical editor. I'm not a technical writer either. Technical means computers and engineering and that kind of thing because there are certainly lots of books that get written in those areas. I'm not your gal. I don't know anything about those areas. I am. I have enough integrity that I would say to somebody. No here but let me find you someone else who might be able to help you, but you want to make sure that your editor is a match for the topic that you're that you're writing on. I would also want to know a little bit about their worldview and editor brings that their entire selves to their editing. And so if they are a person with a lot of very strict opinions about religion about culture about gender identity and that kind of thing. Well, just know that they're bringing those biases into the book with them as they edit they can't help it it's happening at a subconscious level. But the more open an individual is then perhaps the more appropriate they are as an editor for your book so you kind of want to get a sense of their worldview. So writing a book, for example, about how to how to create a thriving family. You might want to know whether your editor is has children. Have they ever had children, because, you know, they can make some good guesses about what your book might look like, but they won't have that granular day to day detail about, you know, have you thought of this because, and I guess that's the other thing sorry I'm carrying on this is really exciting for me. But that's the other thing, are they going to ask you good questions that will help the best come out of you in the writing book. So I find when I'm writing particularly at that big picture level, there are things that don't always make sense. And I often will catch these little things and go well wait a minute. You know, back on page 52 you said this now you're saying this they seem to be colliding. Do you think you could clarify that little discrepancy there. You might come to an area where that's not logical like I can't I don't, I don't get what you're getting out there. You want someone who's not afraid to point out little areas where you may have forgot to explain some details that are deep within your own neurology like you, you know the details but you just might have forgotten to explain a little piece of that concept in paper. So, so I would say that's important. So the structural editor is the big picture editor, and then the copy editors are the people who really look at the grammar and the sentence structure and, and punctuation and that kind of thing. And what you, what you don't want to do is ask a copy editor to give you a sense of the big picture of your book. Your copy editor is more likely to just care about the grammar and the sentences and so on. A developmental editor will give you great feedback on what you can do to improve that manuscript. Yes, I would say that's another piece. You would like also your editor to be asking you some questions. You, I think ideally want your editor to ask you well why are you writing this book, because your editor needs to know what your goals are in order to serve you best. I would like your editor to ask you a little bit about what you want to convey to your readers, what is the goal of this book like what journey do you want to take your readers on, and what do you want to leave them with what's the gift that you're leaving them with that you want to make sure is baked into this book, because your editor will find many many many opportunities to nudge the language in the meaning along your way if they know what it is you're trying to achieve. I would want my editor to ask that kind of question. And I think also how do you want to be perceived by your readers you want your, your editor to be asking that question. How do you want to be perceived what's your brand, and what's your, the points of your credibility that you want to make sure are really clear to your readers. Can you give some examples of that when you say how somebody wants to perceive be perceived. What kind of ways might someone want to be perceived. Sure, that's a really good question. Well, do you want to be perceived as the hands down authority. There is nobody who knows more than about this than I do. That's a quite of an assertive perception in the minds of your reader that wow this, this, this author knows everything. Do you want to be perceived as very compassionate and kind and caring, because that's a different tone that you're bringing to the book. I've had authors who they really have very gentle personalities, but they know an incredible amount about what they're doing so they're stepping into that authority. And so they want to find a halfway tone to what they're presenting so that they are presenting information that's very powerful incredible at the same time they're perceived as approachable. So that's again, those are things that you can bake into the words that are used the kind of words that are used. I had one author they I was editing her book. And she came back to me we had one round of edits she came back and she said oh no no no no you've used the word challenging here I don't use that word challenge well. I wanted to ask, you know where their words are not supposed to use but that was something she said no. She doesn't want her readers to perceive things as challenges, they needed they need to be perceived as opportunities. So we had to go back through that book and take out every single instance of the word challenge, because her worldview was very much one where there are no challenges, and that was part of her brand was it's not a challenge it's an opportunity. It's really important to this. So that's the kind of thing that you look for and, and, you know, ideally you want your editor to be aware that there are words that you use and words that you don't use and that you have a brand persona that you're trying to convey to your readers. Yeah. Yeah I know acronyms is another big thing when authors are writing and they they hand it over to an editor and the editor is like, I don't really know what that stands for can you please illuminate me that can pop a lot jargon and so forth. And you know I'm curious because I have a client right now it's a really interesting setup he's a best best seller he's part of the best selling book program. And first time author, I could say a lot about that, but first time authors really have a hard time. And this question is going to be about letting go, because he's got this amazing gal sleepless nights editing his book, and she's written to me complaining that she'll do all these edits, and then he'll come in and start tweaking the edits. And then she's like this job is never going to be done we've had to postpone their launch. So many times. When is it important for an author to take their pause off of a book and pause to stop the writing process and let go, so that they can give birth. That's, that's an important question. I love your questions by the way Debbie fabulous and so important for people to know about. So yes, it's, it's very true some people get very deep into their books, and they, they don't ever want to let it go. As you pointed out, they are not ready to let it go. I think ideally when you're working with an editor you have to trust that person, which goes back to some of the questions you might ask of your editor should relate to point that you get to where you feel there's some rapport there and you trust that person to be on your team and and your partner that that situation maybe says to me a little bit that that that relationship hadn't developed to a point where the author trusted the editor to know when to trust their judgment and those things, or maybe that there hadn't been a conversation ahead of time where the author had an opportunity to give chapter and verse what they're looking for and explain what it is they're trying to do because if the author is still trying to work on that book that to that extent during the editing process. It sounds as though the editor the author is feeling their vision hasn't been fully transferred into the book itself and me or maybe not quite a shared vision there. And I can add that would drive me a little bit nuts to and that's why I always have lots of conversations with people so that I know what it is they're trying to to achieve. I think if you understand that your editor is a professional and that's the thing editing is a profession. It's not just that somebody wakes up one day actually shouldn't be that somebody wakes up one day and decides they're going to edit some books. There are some people like that out there, but it's a profession and we spend a really good editor will spend their entire life becoming better at the craft of writing and the craft of editing. And while you the author have spent your entire lives becoming experts in your field, your editor has spent their entire lives becoming experts at language. And so the two need to work together. And so you do have to trust that you have someone on your team who is perhaps better should be better at language than you are. And that's why you're hiring them is to take your brilliance and out into the world so that your readers really get how brilliant you are. They see it they can tell because they're reading that book, and they're blown away by your ideas. And that's what your editor is supposed to be doing for you is helping you translate all of this brilliance out into the world in language that really resonates with your ideal reader. I wrote a note I'm going to follow up with them after this and just offer a little loving guidance. I think it'll create her sanity to because she's doing an amazing job. She's beautiful, and I am so grateful. My mom by the way, it was a professional musician and a professional editor. And she did all sorts of I don't know how she did it because it's such intense, it is kind of intense work. And, but she edited all my books. And so I have a lot of gratitude for the work you do in this process and incredible how you can help craft a book. And the fact that you brought up Susan, that there are many types of editing out there, and people authors don't even realize that they think I'm going to hire an editor thinking that'll cover everything. And I'll just keep it simple rather than a laundry list. Let's just name three, like you said, developmental editing, copy editing, proof reading. And it's really important to know if you're a traditional published book, you're going to go through all three of these stages. So, what does editing include? What are the kind of things you feel will especially you since it's you. What's your wheelhouse and what kind of golden things do you bring to the process. Well, my wheelhouse is actually bringing transformational concepts into the language, and into the story and into the reader's experience. And that's really the, the path that I've been on probably for the last 10 years is how do we, how do we create books that make a difference. Not just earnish our reputation and allow people to see us in our authority, but also that really moves the dial on human behavior. And there are a lot of things that go into that from language that language that makes and inspires change, like there are language patterns that actually make a difference in, in how people perceive themselves. So you can, and I'm, I'm, I have a lot of training in neuro linguistic programming actually that was my, my gateway to using language to change, to change behavior, but there are a lot of language patterns that have come out of neuro linguistic programming for me. Something as simple as asking a question. Do you always have to be this way? You know, do you always have to do things the way you've always done them? That, that help people shift a little bit inside from where they're so, so at a real language level, I'm really, really, really accomplished. Like I've spent my entire life with language but also it's language that that helps people change the way they've been doing things. Beyond that though, I'm really, really good with the big picture and where people are missing opportunities to, to impact their readers, you know, that you can have a decent book. It's, you know, you can end up with a decent book, but you know, do you really just want a decent book? Don't you want a book that absolutely blows the doors off people's way of being in the world. And that takes a whole lot of skill with the birthing, the midwifery, the doula that goes into that, which is, you know, fabulous that you're providing that Debbie with helping people think bigger about their book. And also when it comes to the editing, well, let's polish that up a little bit too. Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? Well, wait a minute, you could do this and, you know, do you have calls to action in your book? And, you know, how do we craft of this book a vehicle for you in the world so that you can have the impact that you have been born to have? And how do we also have the impact on your readers that you're here to help them with that experience? So, I don't know if I'm answering that question too well, but really, my work is transformational editing. And I do that at the language level. I'm not the world's best proofreader, you know, the commas, like I'm good at that. Oh, are you? Okay, so then that over to Debbie. You know, I would rather farm that out to people that I know and trust who love proofreading. And there are people that just get so excited about proofreading. They're the right people for that. It's interesting. And I can't help myself because I spotted all the misspells, the extra words, the wrong syntax commas this that I mean, all of it. It's my eyes just, and I was actually interviewing somebody on my dare to dream podcast. And he published through a famous, famous publisher who actually I featured in this class at least a year ago, and I caught all these typos, and I was like, that's an anomaly to me because this is a ridiculously reputable publisher with huge attach to him. And with, you know, I humbly pointed it out. I mean, mostly for the author you need to know on page this and this and I circled and I took screenshots and sent them. And then also CC his editor because we had a friendly relationship and the editor actually wrote back. Did you know that most books are published with at least five top typos and I was like, that's the answer, actually, because it shouldn't be like that. And I read, I have to read books for a living to for what I do on my podcast, and for interviewing people and that's not true. There's a lot of books with zero typos. That really brings us to a really interesting topic. And that's the editing process. So when you're talking about a large publishing company and I have a client going through that right now she. We got her book into as good a shape as we could get it she already had the publishing deal. And so after it left us, there was, there are three layers of editing over and above what we had already done. And the purpose of that primarily was to bring it into alignment with their house style. So we have these things called style guide in editing I use Chicago manual style that's my style guide my go to style guy. And so when I'm editing and I have a question about something I go see what's Chicago manual style sense so that I make sure that I'm consistent. The publishing company will have their own style guides that might be based on CMOS, or it might be their own publishing style that they've developed over many years and it's about how do we deal with language. Where do we put the commas when we have quotation mark what. Oh, yes. Oh yeah really. Take on that. Oh, the comma goes inside the quotation mark. Thank you. Yes. And then there's, if you want to start a fight by the way this is way off topic that if you want to start a fight. I mean a real argument among editors, bring up this thing called the Oxford comma. And the editors I know are all pretty introverted people they love editing they love sitting at their desk and editing they're not typically gregarious outgoing. Let's go party kind of people they, you know they love their languages and their libraries and their dusty books and, and but start asking about the Oxford comma and you will see, like people practically leap out of their chairs the Oxford comma is the comma that you use, or don't use when you are listing things so I went to the store and I bought milk comma bread comma and butter. So that second comma is the Oxford comma we've added that in some people feel no no no no no no that comma has no place in that sentence. And I mean, silly little difference but you kind of need to know whether how your client feels as a matter about the Oxford comma, because people who are highly educated about language who may have had moms who were editors or English probably know about it and have an opinion about it. And it's, it's, it's such a minuscule little thing, but I, and I, full disclosure I believe in the Oxford comma, I like that little extra. I might say on a PC, Microsoft Word documents honors the Oxford comma. So when you do a spell check it will always point out if you've got a second or middle ish word, and there's nothing after it it will recommend you put it there. So there's that and also, thank you. Because that's another thing that makes me nuts when I look at a book when there's quotations and there's a period outside of the quotation or an exclamation or a question or a comma or or or and it's like no you put it inside it's part and parcel. Yes. And there are rules around that who knew. So as an author, you don't really know what all those rules are but there are a lot of them enough that Chicago manual of style is a massive resource database of the rules that we use when we are standardizing language for publication. And so again back to the publishing process so the editing process, a large publishing company will have tiers of editors that go through a manuscript prior to publication, ending with a proofreader in our self publishing world if you're self publishing. You don't have those tiers of editors going through your work unless you pay for them yourself. And so it can really cause a lot of increase to your budget. If you're going to hire a developmental editor and then a copy editor and then a proofreader. Those are three levels of editing that that that a traditionally published author gets included in their deal that you as a self published author will have to hire you again, if you want to have the same quality of editing as someone who's traditionally published I think that's not something that gets discussed quite a bit. You know in this world of Amazon we kind of think oh, you know the technology is there. You just write your book and throw it up on Amazon and you're good to go. And that's not making an equivalent level of quality with the books that are published by the larger companies. It's something that I really feel is a bit of a mis-service, disservice that has been done to the authoring public and not making people aware of the level of editing that's available through the big traditional companies. And I think I just want to jump into one other issue here that I think is relevant and that's called an accuracy rate. And a lot of editors don't know what their accuracy rate is but there is an expectation in publishing that there will be errors because nobody is perfect. And the accuracy rate and especially if you're hiring one editor, only having one editor look at your book. There's a cost implication to more editors but with an accuracy rate, if you have a 95% accuracy rate as an editor, that's considered extremely good. And what that means is that out of every 95 errors you correct, you will miss five. And I don't consider that to be awesome, to be honest. I think it's really good and not all editors can hit a 95% accuracy rate. And I've had occasion to have my accuracy rate tested and I'm a 99.92% accuracy rate. So it's, so I do edit to a really high degree of accuracy at the coffee level to actually. Aside from that 99.1, no 99% is considered out of this world. A 99% accuracy rate is really an elite level of editing, which again means if you correct 99 errors in someone's manuscript, you will miss one. And again, in editing circles, it's pretty well expected that we aren't perfect and we do miss stuff and, you know, the more we train and the more better we get at it, the more discerning we are and the more we work on ourselves, the better we can become at it. But it's still, there just is not perfection out there usually. And it's funny, so Debbie, I'm draining on a little bit about this, but I love it when I catch an error in a book. I see one and I go, oh my gosh, they missed one and I found it, you know, because I know there are going to be errors, we don't always see the errors in a traditional published books. Yes, that's awesome. And what are your thoughts because there is, you know, with all the new trends of self publishing and entrepreneurship, there are people out there who say, you know, I'm just going to give the book to five beta readers, and have them go through it and send me their feedback. So what are your thoughts on that? Oh, number one, who are your beta readers? Are they discerning individuals who are also part of your target audience? Are they people who are actually going to care about the material that you're writing about? Otherwise, they may find it kind of boring to go through an entire manuscript that isn't in their area of interest. So I would be very discerning about who I picked as a beta reader. And by the way, it's a big ask. You're asking somebody to read through what is going to become a two or 300 page book. Well, I can't read a 300 page book in an afternoon. And even more than that, can I provide very valuable feedback in a couple of hours of beta reading somebody's book? No, no, no, no. So you're asking people to do a big job for you. And so who you are asking is really relevant. And I guess the other thing is, are they people who actually have language capability? Like, are they better than you are at writing? And so, you know, that's something really important. You might not know that, you know, you might not know, they might like you, and they might have said I'll be your beta reader, reader. But beyond that, are they really, really strong writers? The other piece that I would say about beta readers, because I think beta readers are a good idea, but specify the kind of feedback that you would like them to give you. Because so many times people ask beta readers to read their book and the person comes back and says, yeah, I loved it. Great book. Well, how does that help you improve? You know, you want to ask for really specific things like, were there any areas where you didn't understand what I was saying? Could you please itemize those and the page number that you found them on and send that back to me? Did I make any idiosyncratic mistakes? I have a client, he's a PhD in legal philosophy. And every single time I edit something this guy has written, he makes the error of its ITS versus its IT apostrophe S. Every single time this guy is brilliant and he's got a little idiosyncrasy. We all do. And so I would ask your beta readers if there are any errors that come up frequently that you just says a general rule should maybe fix. And finally, I would think too that you want to ask them for the general tone. How do you come across in this book? And again, back to are you authoritative? Are you compassionate? Are you helpful? Like, what is the general feel you get from reading this book? And then you can take that information and go, okay, is that how I want to be perceived? So those are just a few things that you can do. Yes, I think beta readers are valuable, but they are not enough. They can point you in a direction for improving your manuscript, but typically they're not professional editors. They haven't spent their entire life making books better for people. And they also don't want to displease you by saying things that aren't great about your books that you're going to be heard around like an editor should be concerned about your feelings and should be compassionate and should also really care about how you're being perceived and are you being perceived in your brilliance? And that's, you know, we're on your team, like we're there to protect your reputation. Whereas your beta reader is maybe not on that path. Exactly. I loved that answer. I concur. And just another piece because all of that is so so accurate and the discernment is huge. Unless you're asking people who have written and published so many books and they're in your subject and in your field. And one of the other things, whether you're asking five or 15 people in the discernment area is, you know, is this just a voice in the dark? And do I pay attention to it? I would pay way more attention. Should you go that way? I don't. But should you go that way? You need to find the pattern. So if five of the five people are saying, you know, in this list Susan that you gave so beautifully about look for these things asked for ask these questions of them. Okay, if they're all check, check, check saying the same thing, I'd pay attention. But if it's a voice in the dark, you know, you need to understand what to let go of to because it can really mess with the flow of this beautiful creation, you know, your book. So I'm going to shift now to storytelling and ask you some questions there. I love this subject so much, and it's not often understood. Let's start with figuring out if your story is even good or not. Are there core questions to ask to figure out, is the story good, am I telling a good story or not. Do you mean the overall narrative arc of the book or the specific anecdotes that you might be and are we talking fiction or nonfiction I guess there's that's a big distinction. I've got people here for both. So I don't know if you can address both and I want to say, I would, if it's possible, could you address both the overall arc of the book, and then the independent stories. Okay. So if you are writing fiction. You want to keep your readers on the edge of their seat throughout this entire experience. In order to do that, you have got to have conflict. You have got to have a clear protagonist, somebody we're cheering for, and you need an antagonist, somebody who is consistently stopping the protagonist from getting what they want. And the whole arc of the story is about how the protagonist is trying to achieve their goal, and the antagonist is getting in the way now the antagonist could be the environment. It could be weather it could be a lot of different things it's not necessarily one individual it could be government, but it is definitely somebody who is frustrating the protagonist consistently. I have done a lot of developmental edit in the fiction area. And I would say that's one of the biggest tweaks, we need to make in the storyline is that people want to tell a nice story. They want to tell about something nice that happened. And that's great. But in order for your readers to really pay attention and to love the experience of being in your in your story with you. You, you really do need to have conflict in order to get calm and by the way this is also appropriate if you're writing say self help book Malcolm Gladwell is an amazing storyteller that guy has got story figured out so go read some Malcolm Gladwell I really want some great examples of a terrific story, but but what he also works with that's applicable for nonfiction and also fiction is talking about values. What values are at stake here. So in the case of fiction, it helps for you to write down at the beginning of your book at the start. So what are the values that this protagonist holds dear. Often that'll be what's what gets frustrated in the arc of the story is so if freedom is your protagonist's biggest value, then look for ways to take their freedom away in the storyline, or limit their freedom, and that will create a great deal of interest for your readers so so in assessing the story that you have if you're three quarters of the way through your fiction story. Take a look at that, and take a look at your protagonist, and do they change. Because that's something else that we want to see in a really good fiction book is a sense that that protagonist has gone on a journey we you know we often use the heroes journey to take a look at that it's very commonly used in storytelling. There are several steps to the heroes journey there specific steps along the journey that, and I invite you to Google that if you haven't already taken a look at the heroes journey but that really does map out a story that is used over and over and over again in Hollywood. I tend to like another story. It's called the virgins promise so the virgins promise was developed by a lady by the name of Kim Hudson, who I think is absolutely brilliant. And Kim Hudson was in screenwriter school where they teach the heroes journey. And she wanted to be a screenwriter so she had to learn the 12 steps of the heroes journey and she was listening avidly to the professor and put her hand up and said, excuse me. The feminine corollary to the heroes journey so we know what the hero guy does. What's the female counterpart to that, to which the professor said, Well, women don't do anything interesting. There is not. As you can imagine them fighting words for most of us, and Kim Hudson went off on the adventure herself of figuring out well what is the counterpart to the heroes journey for a female or a feminine energetic character. Bible stories and Greek mythology and Egyptian stories and all the classic literature and she mapped it out and came up with what she calls the virgins promise. So the virgins promise has 13 steps. An internal voyage rather than an external voyage so whereas the heroes journey involves the hero going on a physical trip. And he has foes to vanquish so we've got ogres and trolls and death stars, you know Darth Vader, we've he's got people who are frustrating him externally. He has an internal voyage and her conflicts tend to be much more internally frame a female character or any gender identified individual can follow a hero's journey path. And same thing with the virgins promise doesn't have to be female it can be anyone of any, any gender can follow that path. But it's just the sense of it's more of a individual growing to independence. So that that character starts in a dependent state and moves into an independent state and that's really the main difference between that and the hero is that it's more of an internal journey. So anyway, so is does your story follow an identifiable story arc. Is there a beginning a middle and an end. And also I think for fiction more than nonfiction, although it in a memoir I would say this is really relevant. Is there an inciting incident. So do you start with something big that happens. So for example, I was editing actually a memoir not so long ago, and it was all about a country where there was another government came in and took all the men and shot them and boys and shot them and then of course the women were all raped because it was really horrendous situation, but the author had started with the main to the protagonist upstairs in bed and she kind of woken up and it was a day like any others and she was hearing some noise downstairs and she shared a room with her sister and so she and her sister started talking and wondering or what was going down while there were soldiers in in the main floor, and their father was tied up. And so my recommendation was, don't start with waking up slowly and wondering about the day. Start with racing down the stairs and seeing her has her father tied up and, you know, or, or when they're taking them at the door to shoot them like, you know, start and again, with God's blessings on all of the people who have ever experienced something so traumatic. We still want to respect and revere the experiences people have had and your people, your readers will pay much more attention if you start with some action. So that's the inciting incident there needs to be something that's gripping us right from the beginning. It's helpful if you're writing a nonfiction books they a self help book. I always recommend people start their chapters with an anecdote, a story of some sort, and start it with some physical activity something can aesthetic have some action happening and this kind of the arc of a fiction piece boiled down into a nonfiction anecdote. But you do need that inciting incident to start us off in a fiction story, you are at some point going to have to have a climax. You know, what's the big thing what's this all leading to the big scene where this is really really all everything's coming to a head. And I think that's something else. The authors particularly don't, don't aren't really tracking for the big exciting scene, but it needs to be big and exciting. So what is that for your protagonist, where maybe they're facing down their antagonist in, you know, at the edge of a cliff, fighting for survival, you know that that's so that fight scene would then be your your big climax. And then a day numeral after there's, I'm not a big fan of the anti climax, because I don't find it usually is interesting but yet that's really where you're tying up all the loose ends of the story duty to do that. In a nonfiction book, my strategy for writing a chapter is start with that inciting incident something active that's going on that will draw your reader in and tell that story, at least tell 80% of that story. And then you can segue into the material you want to teach or share with your readers so in a self help book and maybe. So I've had lots of healers have lots of healers write books so let's say it's a cure for Alzheimer's. They have information that will help people not have Alzheimer's. So you start with that story and then you go into your teaching material here are the nine things that you need to know around ensuring you don't get Alzheimer's. Tell that information. And, okay, can I get really geeky here or am I boring everybody, because I have a I also have a formula for writing a chapter that is tried and true, and it's okay if I jump in there. Okay, so I, I, I is pretty geeky, but it's, it's effective. There is a woman by the name of Bernice, I think her last name was McLoughlin, who studied how people pay attention. Harvard University professor and this was back in the 80s or 90s, and she studied thousands and thousands of people to figure out well what are the differences and how people pay attention. And I'm going to boil this all down into kind of the cold notes version it's a lot more complex than what I'm going to share here but for this purpose is it'll serve you. She determined that 25% of the population cares about why something is important. They are very judgmental in how they spend their time. And if they don't hear why they should pay attention or why this is valuable to them, they're out of there, you've lost them. So, you need to, after you've told your told your little story or part of your story, 80%, then you need to explain why this information is important for people. So you capture those people who care about why and who are going to stop reading if they don't get it right away. The next 25% of your readers care about what it is. So if you've got a cure for Alzheimer's. Tell them why it's important and then go into well what is this magic cure for Alzheimer's. What are the nine components that people need to be aware of in order for them to be living bigger, healthier, longer lives. And that's because that 25% of the population that cares about what information what something is, they will check out if they don't get that after the why they'll pay attention to the why. But they're not especially interested in one what they really want is what is it. An example I can give of that by the way, coming from a background of journalism initially in my life was, if you read an average news article. Quite often, you will find out say a fire at young and main so here's the what information is that young and main 12 fire trucks were involved, 52 firefighters, seven building blocks were affected and 250 people had to be evacuating. That's what that's not why the fire started you might get that. And usually a good journalist will be told you have to find out why the fire started if you can but the why information is usually very minimal in the typical journalistic article. And then. But that's really the focus for most journalists they really care about what the third category is how. How do you apply this cure for all times, because the next 25% of the population, they're like engineers how do you build a bridge. And they will sit through the why they'll sit through the what but you need to tell them how. And if your default pattern has no how in it like you don't care about how either, then it will really serve you to consciously. Remember to include information about how something works. So how does your cure work how often do you have to take. How often do you go for walks how often do you play brain games like how how do you apply this to your own life it's the application part that the how is. And then finally the final 25% of the population are the visionary thinkers. So what are the implication of all of this. So what, what big result will this make possible in my world, quite often CEOs are these implication people. Okay, you've told me why I got what you give me how now so what. What's it going to do to make my life better. And that kind of information in all in our Alzheimer's example might be. Well, if you if you use this protocol consistently over the next 10 months, then you will find that your life is is your, your life is lengthened by an average of two to five years statistics. So you're, you're embedding all of that it has to be in that order by the way why what how in implications, but that way you're, you're hitting all segments of your reading public in that they need to obtain the information. So that's called the format. You can find information about that online as well. But so back to the structure of a chapter for a nonfiction book would be start with your anecdote, a little story about what, what happened when you draw people into the story, tell them why, why it's important, what it is, how it works, and what the implications are, and then circle back to the rest to the story that you started at the beginning. Now that this is called an unnested loop, it's called a loop. That's not actually less nested that's pretty complex but so what you're doing is you're full circling that story and it's like tying the whole thing up with a nice bow, referring to the story, kind of finish it off with with a few more details about the story at the end. And so that is a million dollar movie star technique for writing a chapter it's, it's formulaic but really you can do so many things within it and get that right brain activated with ideas and that was huge. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. That was amazing that such good information. I'm taking notes myself. And thank you because I know there's a lot of people out there who can apply what you just said to their books. I'm going to open up right now to questions. So if anybody has a question for Susan, please let us know. I'm going to raise your hands or Ellen. I'm going to bring you on and unmute yourself and go ahead and ask your question. Great. Hi. Thank you Susan. Can you can you all hear me all right. Yes. Okay, I have a new mic so I wasn't sure. So I have a whole bunch of questions actually so I'm just going to try and I'm writing YA fiction that's my first time writing fiction but I've been a writer of other kinds all my life. So I had a question. You kind of answered it. Can the antagonist be the inner self. Yes. Okay, it can it's trickier to write though because we aren't rooting for the antagonist. Right. We don't like the anti as a reader we don't want to like the antagonist we want to like it can be done but as I say I think it's tricky. We don't want the antagonist to be somebody we, we, we don't cheer for, and the inner self we may not I kind of cheer for the inner self my own demons. Okay, but yeah, but you can do it but it's not you're carving out quite a project. Yeah, well I'm sort of doing you know her reactions to everybody is the end, you know she's reading the room wrong and it's a developmental thing but anyway so I'll I'll put that in my, if I can just ask quickly I'll leave my other questions because I see other hands, but I didn't realize that I don't know the difference between a copy editor and a proofreader. That's a very simple question. Sure. So, and that's a really good question and hardly anybody knows the differences to be honest so we have the developmental editor which is more big picture. The copy editor is working at the length the language level, the words, the do the sentences make sense is the grammar correct are the prepositions the right prepositions everybody has trouble with prepositions by the way. Very common to have trouble with prepositions. Do the nouns and verbs work well together are, you know, that's copy editing, just to make sure the sentences are correct. Then, and that can go on for a long time. There's also this little other category that we often lump in with copy editing which is called line editing and line editing is about voice. So, is the author using words consistently the same way throughout. Maybe they have. Maybe you have an accent, maybe the narrator has an accent or one of the characters has an accent. Well the line editor will make sure that accent is accurately represented all the way through the book, unless there's a reason that it should change. Are there are there words that are misused intentionally throughout the book that's part of the author's voice. Well, that line editor needs to make sure that the words are misused intentionally all the way through the book there are times when that's appropriate. The line editor, and then the proofreader is the person who's kind of like the cleanup squad. And they, your copy editor and your line editor should be working at the level of punctuation and grammar and all the rest of it as well. But the proofreader, it's like they, they carry this to an art form, they are so tuned in to the minutiae of the detail of the language that they nothing gets by them. And I think, you know, there's a personality correlation in your editors to all of this, the, the developmental editors love the big picture and they tend to be really visionary they have, they will buy into your vision for the book and they will help you expand your vision for your book. When we get down to so that's very big picture thinking. When we get down to proofreading, that's really granular detail work. So, and some and I happen to have a brain that works well at the big picture and works really well at the detail level as well. But not everybody does like you probably know for yourself, whether you're more of a big picture thinker or a detailed person. If you're more of a big picture thinker here's here's a tip. When you're talking to potential editors. Ask them, because you want somebody who's going to fill in for what your blanks are so if you know you're a visionary, then you're going to want somebody who really loves the copy editing aspect. I hope that helped explain that did that Ellen. Yes, that was great thank you Susan. Okay, and now I'm going to ask Karen, your hand is up. Go ahead and ask your question. Hi there. Thank you for coming here. I've just so enjoyed what you've been talking about. It's been wonderful. So my question to you is, is where I am with my book is that I'm writing short stories about things that have happened in my life. And so how would the kind of structure that you're talking about be applied here or is that not really what's going on because every story is its own little world like I don't do you know I mean like I don't know how to Yeah, the structure is a little bit different for a short story I love short stories by the way. My second book was a collection of short stories, and, and I would, you know just time for me I haven't done more but so in a short story you're kind of taking the, the fiction model so you're going on a journey character is going on some kind of adventure at some sort, whether is so we don't usually have time to get into a hero's journey path on a short story and in fact I'm not a big heroes journey person to be honest like I think it. At some point you do have to structure it but it's can be very confining for some of us, but with a short story. You're usually setting out to solve one problem. Your main character has one problem ahead of her. And that's the real focus of that that one story in a in a fiction in a novel, you might have multiple themes and multiple issues and multiple problems and certainly multiple characters but you so your character number of characters first of all is going to be fewer in a short story, it may only be that protagonist who might be the narrator, but that's, they need a problem to solve you want to use want to start them with some action. You want them to have a lot of conflict, and that might be internal conflict. And I'm not sure I'm giving you really concrete assistance on that because that's that to me even as I say that it's sounding pretty generic. Do you do you want to say a little bit more about what the issue is. I don't have necessarily specific issue in the moment because I'm enjoying writing these stories and they're very cathartic and you know, I want to make them as as good as I can, you know, so it's more of that, you know, and as I move forward into other ones, I can be more mindful now of how to structure this. Yeah, so what I can also tell you about a lot of the short stories that I've edited. One of some typical things that I correct for in short stories is setting. So make sure that you place your character and this would go for fiction as well. Make sure that we can see where your character is. Are you giving enough detail around where they are in space. Are they standing on a beach. Are they sitting down at a desk. Well what's the desk look like how big is the desk is it a big oversized, very masculine looking desk for is it really a you know kind of an Art Nouveau kind of she she little desk like give us a little bit of detail around the setting, which will reflect on your character as well. You don't want to describe everything to death, because in a description gets doll, but you want to give us enough detail that we can make some wise guesses about your character based on where they are and what they're doing, how they're dressed. What, what actions are they taking that might hint at where they are as well because because I find that's typically there's no setting. I, you know, like I don't know where they are and I don't like, I can't your reader needs to see something like that. So that would be one thing as you're crafting the story, as they're going through space and time, show us what what your character is seeing. And also, I would also make sure you embed some emotion into what's happening. And because that's also something quite typically there's no feeling like there is structure. So from A to B, and then on to Z, Z, I'm Canadian so I say that some stuff happens and the character goes on a journey, but I've, I got nothing. I don't feel anything as a result so work within motion. And that's, that is something that comes with it's a craft like that comes with practice in hinting at feelings at sharing and like just a little tweak of an eyebrow can express some emotion. But don't leave it out for crying out loud because that's actually what's going to keep your reader interested is, is the emotional impact, particularly in a short story, because you don't have as much space to develop the character. So, and your voice also is something that's really, really powerful in a short story, you can say a lot with very few words. Okay, so those are just some things. And to be honest, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the structure, right what's in your heart, particularly with the short story, right what is in your heart because you, you know the story. You lift it if they're based on your life. You've already lived that you know what the beginning and the middle and the end is. So, take us on that little adventure. Okay. All right, well thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Anyone else. Can I just say one word about that sorry Debbie, please. There are known to be two kinds of writers out there there are the plotters and the panzers and I don't know if you talked about plotters and panzers at all Debbie is that you guys go into. No. Okay. So, a plotter is someone who figures out the entire book before they actually write it. And so they plot it. And there is a really good book that I love actually there's some really good lots of really good books but saves the cat writes a novel is a really great book about structure. And it breaks everything down into scenes or beats of your book and so you want to map that out ahead of time if you're a plotter, you love that mapping stuff out. If you're a panther, you fly by the city your pants. And so you just write, you just write because it's fun to write and you don't know what you're writing and you don't know where your characters take you and it's just so fun and oh this could happen and let's do this next and you just get really crazy wrapped up in the adventure of writing. And those are panthers, I tend to be a panther. And when I'm writing, when I'm editing I have the luxury of okay. This isn't my book this is someone else's book I better pay attention to the, to the structure here. I tend to impose the structure on as an editor, and I do that myself in my own writing after I can't sit out. So I, I'm not a big plotter ahead of time, but the structure has to be there, or you will lose your readers here's here's the other thing that I've discovered is that being an author and writing a book is an immensely creative soul inspiring activity. It just moves us in ways, and we grow in ways we never thought possible. So when we're writing quite often we are spewing that that language out onto the page and it just feels so good and so cathartic and so much we're so much in our being as we're writing it's it's such a glorious experience and reading is a linear experience. So the creative aspect of writing is can be very very magical. But your readers needed your writing presented in specific ways so they can access the magic. And that's what the structure does it provides a scaffolding on which your creativity can sit so that your readers can absorb it. And, you know, not to the extent of you know I'm not a big believer in in structuring the life out of what you're writing. There needs to be enough structure there that your reader can can grasp that. And, and again that's where knowing who your ideal reader is really helps is who are these people do they need a lot of structure are they are the accountant, or are they holistic healers. So that'll make a difference to how your information. Yeah, good point really good point. Let me see. Why is this pin not here we go. Great point and one of the ways that I help the writers to wrap their brains around this because you got to find your sweet spot there's a way you operate and you honor your sweet spot. And one idea is that in the very beginning the inception of your book, you write down all the bullet points what do you need to cover in your book. And those bullet points will become chapter titles, of course you can change them later on but they're your guide. So when you sit down you're not blank and saying what am I going to do next you say, Oh, chapter one that's the bullet point, and you start your writing on that and then chapter two and this is how you do your book and this is somebody who functions very well in a structure like this. And then, when I wrote my books I just whoop. I leaped, you know, and I've had people go, How did you do that like, I don't know. I just flowed it came out of me and that's what I honored. But I also think, if you think flowing is very good for you. But you notice that the way you're writing there's this haphazard quality it's really not connecting you know when you read it back. I always say when you sit down to pick up writing again you've written yesterday for instance and you're coming back today. If you're coming back you need to read everything you wrote the day before, so you can pick up in the energy and keep going. Right, you'll be back in the flow of your own voice, and be able to start writing. And when you're doing that. The point is, and you're finding this writing isn't making sense it's not your job to edit at that point it may be your job to stop and go back and create an outline for yourself. You have better structure that lets you know where you're going, where the big moment is in the book, and etc you do want to map that out. So, I appreciate this conversation. I think all of this is super important. And I've got a question here from art, who says, what level of editing is it that you are your offer is for us so Susan create an offer professionally edited sample of your manuscript to move your book forward. She said it's 5000 words for 497 you've got the URL here. And what what type of editing is that for it. I actually work at both levels at the same time. So it is developmental and it copy editing. And what that means is as I'm reading through it I'll identify where you've repeated yourself, where you're not making sense where you've made logical leads. I'm missing, maybe in the development of that sample, but also fixing the sense, we can call it fixing. So I combine both of them in one pass at the editing. What I also deliver with that is a report. I have an edit memo, which summarizes what I've done to the manuscript so, again, prepositions tend to be a pretty common thing that I fix sentence structure, you know, but but maybe your sentence structure is flawless. And maybe there were other little idiosyncrasies that I found myself correcting consistently through throughout that passage so I do a little report and I also in that report if I have got ideas for you for expansion. So I like expansion. Then I will summarize those in that report as well but I but I also comments in the sample itself like I edit right on the manuscript my my word. And that does by the way need to be inward not a PDF. So inward pages I can convert to word as well. But then where is it going with that. Yeah, so yeah so I changed the sentences. You can track changes so you can actually see what I'm recommending you don't have to do anything I tell. I recommend you. It's here the author you get to check, but you can see the changes and recommending and then there'll be comments in the comments pain as well that you can see where where I might not have understood what you've done, but maybe I've understood everything so. Excellent. Okay. Anybody else have any questions. And I can't see everybody at the same time so. Dolores has a question there. Oh, thank you. Hi Dolores come on in and ask your question. Hi. No, very easy. I just needed that title again you said saves the cat saves the cat writes a novel. Okay, great. I'm pretty sure I've got that right I've got a copy. It's my bedtime reading. Okay. Yeah, that yeah, great. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. The Brody is the author saves the cat writes a novel the last book on novel writing you will ever need, and it is outstanding. It's a good book. The other person I follow is Sean coin. He's got something called the story grid. I think it's called another look at that novel structure I've read him yeah the story grid. And he boils it down into five steps in your five discrete steps in your book in your novel. And actually Sean coin has a great podcast if you're looking for a super resource on on structure book structure. Check out a story grid podcast. It's outstanding and it's Sean coin and I forget the fellow that he's that he does the podcast with but they talk about book structure. It's, I just love it I follow, I follow them as well. Excellent. Hey Alexandra great. What is your question. You're muted. Alexandra. You've all done it. It's bad. Now I got a cat in my throat. I wanted to know if you could just talk a little bit about the art of coming up with a title in specifically for me my interest is self help her book. Yeah, and I wish I was really good at that. All right, and I'm not. There is, let me see. There's a colleague of mine by the name of Claudia gear. She's an agent in New York. And that is something that she has. She's actually talked to my mastermind group about. There is she has a formula. And I'm just seeing I'm just wondering if she has that available on her website as a as a free download. What is their last name gear g e r g e re. She works only very selectively these days. I don't know, but I know when she spoke to my mastermind group, she did have some kind of download that related to book titling, and she was very interesting she's taken people from, you know, she works as a book coach and a lid but as a literary agent, particularly, once someone signs with her, then she will take them through to traditional publishing contract. And her comments were very interesting to me in that she has said, you know what, it, you never know, you can come up with what you think is the absolute best book title in the world. And then when they get to the traditional like to the publisher stage, they have the publishers have reasons for reconfiguring all of that. And so it isn't it is an art form and I'm sorry I am not all that good at it. But to be honest, it's about snappy catchy phrases. That's right. And I'm sorry I'm not. I don't know why her website is not coming up for me. No worries well you're looking for that I'll throw in my five cents here. You know, a book title is general if you look at your bookshelf right now, you will notice that book titles are short book titles are generally three words, right. And they should be, they should elicit something compel something such as curiosity, like an insider secret like surprise and humor, like controversy or being contrarian, like specific or powerful benefit, like novelty or unique mechanism. The reason why is because, you know, your book cover is your greatest sale, or losing sales, it will either cause somebody compel somebody to buy it, or compel somebody to be retracted from it. And you want them by the cover, meaning the picture that that is on it, the way the fonts are the way the, the, not just the photo, whatever you're using or painting, but also it's super important to have the colors be such that it's also compelling. So you've got your title, very important that is a big sales pitch for you. And then the other thing is your subtitle and so your subtitles actually what describes the book, what's the inside of the book. And I'll give you some examples of book titles, such as nine fast formulas for fame. Or think of some the thief's mission. A good night's sleep, stumbling on happiness, dreaming and code, getting things done. I'm going to also look at some here things books I have here, the energy code, way of the shaman, wisdom to success. Love in 90 days. So you see it's very catchy. You have a sense of what the book is about and what its benefit might be. But then the subtitle is what actually breaks it down for you. This is the absolute. Here's the content value you're going to get inside of the book. And it is it's really important it's real estate on your book, and you want to make sure you use it wisely. And it's also it's interesting because it's often for people kind of like saying what do you do for a living. And you know you have one sentence to say it and everybody gets in their head and, you know, you don't know what you don't know. However, once you have some distance from it, I always recommend just start talking that's sometimes how I found the titles of my books. It was like, Well, what's your book about. And you know my second book. I don't even remember the original title, but at one point I was just speaking it out loud. Here's why to read my book and you know basically the essence is this is the wisdom that will bring you to success and I was like, Oh, wisdom to success done. And then I had a subtitle of course. So that's what I recommend. Just talk. Don't try to get real kitschy with words because it's, it can be very confusing and frustrating, but I would just write and write and you know widen back. And it is like the homeopathic essence of your book. What is that. And I know we talked about that a little bit Alexandra and that would be my recommendation is, you know, to really know what your offer is. And the why of somebody what they should read it and you can do it in a funny way. You can do it in a serious way you can do it in a clever way you can point yet all of that. They all read well, but you just have to find that essence but the great news is once you find it it's like, yes, you know in your heart you've landed. I hope that helps. Fabulous explanation Debbie. Really great. Just a couple of minutes folks, I am going to again go through her package and just say that if you have a portion of your manuscript that you would like to have professionally edited. This is a way you can test drive working with Susan Crossman. You can see what the editing relationship is like you could also get very honest and compassionate feedback on your writing. And so she's put together an editing package just for my community. It leverages Susan's decades of professional editing and writing experience and the thousands of hours she spent training in this area for reader engagement personal transformation the result is a professional edited sample of your manuscript. I'm going to move forward. You absolutely want to go to the URL she provided so you can get that package at that special price and she she'll know. It's not the price probably she usually charges. But again, I'll put the URL into what we've got here. And Susan, in the last few minutes will you just say what is the timeline, people who are writing a book. What is the timeline for getting on board with an editor. How long it takes to edit or when should be looking for an editor. Yes. Well, I would tune into your gut first of all, and trusted your inner wisdom on that one. But I think most people start looking around about the time when they're three quarters finished their manuscript. And they're going, oh, there's another next step. Okay, but I better find an editor and I think that's probably a good time to start looking you know what your book is. You, you do want to interview a few people now. I mean there's me of course and I'd love to work with all of you but maybe we're not the right fit. And if not, then if you're in the United States you might look on the American copy editor society page aces. And that's a directory of editors in the United States. There's also the editorial freelance association, which has a directory of editors in Canada we have editors Canada. I'm a member of editors Canada and aces. So what you do then is just start doing a search and looking for the keywords that you feel are relevant to your book. So about three quarters of the way through I would say and then start interviewing and start asking questions and start figuring out who the right match for you is. If you have a fully finished manuscript and that means you've gone through it so often that you're sick to death of it like really that's about the point when you're ready for an editor is you just can't see any more mistakes you have no idea what to do next. Then it's time to take it to an editor. I will send an editor an unfinished manuscript or one where you still have a lot of work to do on it. What I do and I don't know if everybody does it the same way but I will do a sample edit. And what that means is people will send me a fragment of their manuscript, usually a couple of thousand words, and I will, I will edit it and I will do a sample edit, and I'll see how long that takes me. I will do it by the hour. Some people charge by the word and for a developmental edit I will charge by the word but for kind of that, that everything together at it, I do it by the hour. And that will allow me to figure out, okay how long is this going to take me so we need the final word count, you're going to do it that way. And so how many words is the total manuscript, let's say 60,000. So the number of hours times the number of words and then you get an estimate with that of what it's going to cost to write your book to edit get your book edited. So the editing process itself. Like I say I've had clients that I've worked with for a couple of years. That's not typical. And really, the lag time in there is how long are you hanging on to it. And so we do a round of edits, and then send that back to the client the client reviews the edits figures out which ones they liked which ones they didn't like. Hopefully you like all of them. And but, but there will be spaces they have to fill in some blanks there so how long that takes you dictates when that goes back to the editor for the next round of edits. Generally, certainly for me, typical is about three rounds of edits so back and forth to me three times and back to you before it's ready for publication. Sometimes manuscripts are very problematic. I had one guy. He had his table of contents and he sent me the manuscript and the first three chapters were pretty good. And then came chapter four, which was 40,000 words in one chapter. And so that took substantial that. It was. So, so I never know quite what I'm going to get, but and none of it's wrong by the way, it's not that wasn't wrong. It was just 40,000 words is almost a whole book, you know, in one chapter. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, so sometimes it takes longer. And how long your book is will also determine how long the editing process is how long it takes. Yeah, that's great because you know as I always say and we're wrapping it up folks, books are not a linear process. So you get halfway to three quarters of the way through and exactly like Susan said you must be thinking ahead at that point, because otherwise it's going to take you to do your book. You cannot write and finish do the draft. Oh, I wonder who's out there for editing. Oh, I wonder who could market my book. Oh, like it will be forever. You must take a pause in a breath. And that's when you stop and say, as Susan said, look at a couple of people, you got the 411 here is beautiful. Decide who you want to work with, maybe do a sample with them like with Susan, and then you will know. And same thing I do this. I tell everybody if you are ready to become an international bestselling author and dear, I hope you are after all that work. So people can have eyes on your book and know it exists. And we can really exponentialize your visibility. Then you come to me also three quarters of the way through and you say I'm ready to hire you. I'm working in the background. I know what I'm doing. I do all the heavy lifting. You don't have to do a thing. And we get you positioned so that when your book is published and ready, everything is flowing with Susan's editing with my marketing with anybody else you bring on board. It is so important for you as an author to have this kind of flow happening. And once you do a book once trust me once you get that under the belt you've gone through the rights of fire. You'll be great for every book after that you'll know so much about the process. And Susan here at the end I just want to thank you so much for coming on and the brilliance that you shared today. This was incredible. Really I enjoyed it. Me too Debbie thank you so much for the opportunity and I wish everybody the best of everything with your books and make it expand you in countless amazing and profitable and productive and happy ways. Yeah, thanks everybody for joining us today you've been amazing I adore you all will see the book writers visibility Debbie dashing or comm slash visible visionaries will see you in two weeks for our regular class and right right right between now and then this will be up in your platform.