 It's been a long, long day, I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight, I go see a friend. Hello, I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Cout. And we are speaking from the Rooftop. A podcast brought to you by 10 Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. You know what I was thinking about? Do tell. Well, you know, we're ramping up to a midterm election. And everyone gets pretty edgy, given the state of our political climate. And we certainly are not primarily interested as one who proclaims the gospel and represents the church of being perceived as political in our orientation or in our first purposes. But we're oftentimes caught as priests because we have to address certain topics and issues. And they then get translated by the faithful, rightly speaking, into policy and how it sorts out a given political system, depending on which country you're in. So things get a little heated because oftentimes people want you as a priest to voice their yes, their particular policy issue. And they want you to be the one using the pulpit because everyone gets politically charged and we're trying to drag people to the polls and they want certain outcomes and it gets really kind of crazy. And everyone gets very nervy. So in the past, I've always thought to myself, we should talk about the role of politics in the life of the faithful outside of a political climate, outside of a political season where everyone's gearing up to the ballot box. Now, I feel like we're still far away from the November midterm elections. That we can touch this thing without... We can kind of touch the topic and not be accused of anything. I'm trying to sway anyone's particular votes or their practical wisdom with respect to social policy. But I'm going to kind of offer you one thing, one scenario or one situation that happened with me in this last presidential cycle. And I'll share it with you and share it with the people who are listening. I had just to kind of give you a sense of some of the problems, I think we were faced with as believers. I would say that just for the listening audience there, I don't really watch any politics. And all of my politics is filtered through Father Winslow. Yeah, it's kind of been that way. He is my go-to. So he distills it all for me and gives it to me in a very quick 30-second sound bite. What do I need to know? I do my best, but how well have I done it? He does a great job. Absolutely. Because you can always measure it against how things unfold. Absolutely. Right? So there is a way to check it. No, there's... I wouldn't say there's prophecy involved. No. There's some sound prudential outcomes that he's predicted. Or I've accurately characterized the moment. Yeah. There you go. I'm a believer. I'm a believer. No, I handle politics and level of theory. So I'm happy to talk about that after. All right. So it was prior to the last presidential election. Again, everyone who's lived in the country knows how tense that year of COVID was and the political season. So people were very queued up on all sorts of issues, especially the life issues and other related matters. And I was covering at a parish summit because you know I don't have a regular congregation because I'm not assigned to a parish in my current role. And I decided that I wanted to speak to people about an appropriate way to deal with the political realm within our Christian souls. And caution them on perceiving the political landscape as the only landscape for a Christian victory. In fact, caution them all together in having a sort of a worldly view of the kingdom of God. That this has to play out here and that the Christian mission is succeeding or failing based upon the degree and the extent of the political realm is reflecting it. And the degree and the extent in which the right people are getting elected to advance the right policies that are in accord with the gospel. You know, I think I mentioned a little bit about in the time of Christ and the Zalatry movement and how there were a number of movements in the Jews at the time that were looking for what you might call a political messiah, but certainly one who would reunify the kingdom relative to a temporal kingdom, not merely or whether not really or specifically looking for the eternal kingdom, but they were thinking in terms of the temple. Of course they would, right? I mean, that's the kingdom. That's what it was. I mean, David was the king. I mean, it was a temporal kingdom. And so there was a concern for a messiah to come and to to reunify and bring the kingdom back together. And it can get to a point of thinking that everything ultimately is about success and failure within the political or geopolitical sphere. And I was trying to caution people about that. In which case we'd all be very depressed. Well, yes. And I didn't know what the political, I didn't know what the election outcome would be one way or the other. And there were certainly a lot of people who were pro-life motivated in this particular congregation, rightfully so. And as I stood at the door of the church, I had a number of people thank me, because I, my sense was that they wanted some guidance and perspective. They were not looking specifically for someone to tell them how to vote or what to do, or to take on what issue and prioritize any given issue. They just wanted some perspective. And I think I was able to deliver. But a woman who was clearly a woman who was sincere and zealous, she told me that I made all of the saints and Jesus and Mary cry. Oh. And I was, I didn't know you had that kind of capacity. I didn't know that I had that sort of influence. You never even made me cry. And I said, I said, what are you talking? I was so dumbfounded. Her point was that I should have been, you know, stomping for certain political candidates, and whether they be on the state level or a national level, or whether it was the national level, i.e. the president, that I was supposed to advance certain individual people. And I probably gave them some reason not to be as animated as they should be. And that I clearly was part of the problem in the American political culture, because I wasn't animating to the degree and extent that I should have or could have these people to go out and get other people to vote for a certain outcome. And I thought to myself, she totally missed my point. I mean, she's also proving it, right? In the sense that you see your religion as being successful or unsuccessful within the geopolitical theater. Right, right. What about the kingdom of God? Right. Jesus didn't see it that way. He was very clear about that. All right, I've said enough. Well, I'm sorry that my mom said that to you. Well, I didn't want to say it, but boy, boy, sometimes she just misses the mark, Calvin. I didn't know how you do it. Well, I mean, this is it. And I have had so many, so many occasions in many years of priesthood to realize that persons oftentimes invert the order of things, such that they're not concerned particularly about the kingdom of God that is of the soul, or the kingdom of God that is the common good of the church, but rather the political party can use the church, which is the primary religion in some sense, the political party, to advance various doctrines. Such that when we have an occasion in which the seated president, as we have now, is a Catholic, but may not align with any of the principles of the faith or something to someone's satisfaction, et cetera, they would want to abandon not just the candidate, but also sometimes the church, because the church hasn't done something to make sure that he's allowing them to compel them to align with what have you. Now, that is a case in which, of course, we have inverted the entire system, that there is only one king and all authority is by necessity borrowed. But what's interesting to me about politics, more on a theoretical level, that of course gets very practical fast, is that I was always fascinated by the medieval insistence of its nobility, because we don't have that anymore. We don't have respect for politics. If you say politics, you assume that old proverb that's the last refuge of the scoundrel, right? You assume that it's the entire thing is massively corrupt from top to bottom. We talk about it as a swamp in the last presidency, right? And I'm not saying that it's not, but the Medieval's held such an indefatigable love for those in politics, not because they were good. They certainly weren't, and they had no delusions about that, but because of the noble activity itself. In other words, someone who is concerned, not just with his private good, but someone who's concerned with the common good is something that's closer to the divine activity, because the Lord is always concerned with the common good, which isn't contrary to someone's individual good. It's just not private. And so one of the things that anyone realizes the moment they begin to take any sort of position of leadership is how incredibly hard it is, because you can no longer think about your private good. I think I might have mentioned in a different episode, or maybe we were just talking, I can't recall, because it's just episodes are just sometimes we actually hit the record button. Right, exactly. That's where I'm in the conversation anyway. We're trying to capture them for everybody. Every now and then we have our own private conversations. You said not long ago when we were watching one of the seminarians skateboard down the road with a frisbee in his hand going off to play frisbee. And you said to me, do you remember days in which the only good we had to be concerned about was our own? Yeah. And it struck me because it gets to the heart of what is the common good. A common good isn't something principle that's divisible. It's a good that diffuses its goodness to the many and you can actually only have a common good by having it shared. But you can't divide it. It's a whole. Twisting time is called a virtual whole or the kind of a whole of order. But someone has to do the ordering for everyone to enjoy. So someone's school is a common good. The seminary is a common good. The diocesan family is a common good that we all share in and we get to participate in it. But it's not divided whereas like a pizza or something like that, right? Your piece is your piece, not my piece. Even when we say we share a pizza. Right. So for the Medieval, it was so clear that the most noble thing you could do was to be like God was to order things for the common good. So getting back to this position of contention that we sometimes have relative to having to be in positions of leadership, how hard it is when someone comes up to us and asks a question because they're just thinking about their private good. And it might be a good for them. But you have to take into account every single ramification, you much more than I do. I run a seminary, you help to run a diocese. And so every particular request that you get, especially if someone's asking you as you're walking down the hallway, it's hard because you think, how does this affect the whole? And for that reason, someone who's a policymaker or in politics or who governs the city, I mean, it's a huge responsibility. And one that certainly is not something we should be shying away from, but something we should be jumping into. If you're doing it right, it should be hard. If it's only about navigating your own success, then the whole thing is self-centered. But if you are truly having as your object and goal, the common good, which of course comports to objective reality, in our case, sound reason and divine revelation, then it's really hard. And it is a type of service. And it certainly tracks to the type of service that our Lord had described about being the last, you know, about being the one who is a servant of all, that it really should feel that way and if you're doing it properly because you're thinking about literally everyone else and not yourself. And I found myself in situations, and now we're talking about Ecclesiastical Governance, where I'm just looking for somebody who's willing to set their own consideration aside. And I find myself, because I'm in the position of having to guide or to lead, that I'm very quick to say, I'll set aside mine, my own desired outcome. Because I feel the weight of trying to get at the right answer or the best answer for the common good. And it becomes challenging because often people approach everything as an adversarial system that if you don't advocate for your cause, then no one will be advocating for your cause, and therefore your cause will be run right over, run rough shot. Where it's not supposed to be that way in a servant leadership role. It's really meant to be that the one who's in the servant leadership role is supposed to be looking out for those who have strong advocacy and those who have no advocacy. Those who have no advocacy. And yet oftentimes people in the life of the church, they don't assume that. They don't seem the best. There may be reasons in historical reasons and bad examples that have been set in the past where there hasn't been an appropriate amount of vigilance with respect to all people and all the individuals, including those who have no advocates. But it certainly shouldn't be the norm. And we ought to be able to kind of reset the presumption. Now, getting back to the civil political side, I think that most people want to know first and foremost how this fits into a Christian life. How does the whole geopolitical dynamic of our life here in this world play our factor into our own personal lives? And on the one hand, I think it's important to say, I think it's right to say that it's important. And I think the church speaks to that and models that. But on the other hand, it is not the ultimate importance that our religious faith is not being successfully lived only when we have certain geopolitical outcomes. That is not the case. In fact, we can look to these moments in the life of the church where you see extraordinary beautiful things happen, whether it's Saint Francis rising up in the life of the church or whether it's Ignatius Eliola or Saint Dominic. At the time, they were having no impact on political society. But the most amazing and beautiful things were occurring that would ultimately be such a power and force in the shaping of society. Right, right. But it wasn't born in the political realm. Even looking even more recently, of course, with Pope John Paul II and Saint John Paul, incredible amounts of influence that he wielded by virtue of the word and the faith that eventually assisted in, of course, in the toppling of communism in Poland. You know, I think that one of the ways in which Catholics could consider themselves parts of a whole, we have to remember that, that we don't mean that in terms of being used by the whole in some sort of totalitarian system. You know, a person is a substantial whole, but we want to be part of something. I mean, everyone wants to be part of something, but now it's the difficult thing to do because everyone's so hypersensitive to their individual good. And you see this play out when we actually go to vote. I mean, what are the issues upon which people typically vote? When you ask them, you know, are you thinking about the common good when you vote? Or are you thinking of the thing that best benefits you, you know, whether it's drug prescription prices or this, that or the other that aren't high level things that are important for your pocketbook and things of that nature. But what's the best outcome for not just me, but the guy who lives down the street? And that takes a fair amount of, as you say, laying aside some wishes you might have, because we're so concerned all the time with our private goods and making sure that I get, I have to get as much of those as I can. Like there's only so many jelly beans in the jar. And I'm going to vote in such a way that I get the most jelly beans. It's a stupid example. But that's treating everything as a private good. And everyone's scraping to get as much as they can as opposed to thinking about the movement of the body as a whole. And then as you said, kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. Our Lord was very clear about how these things would happen in the course of history. And one of the first instances of a major event that happened where you realized that, wait a minute, the kingdom of the world and the kingdom of the church do not ever really coincide in the same way at the same time. You have, sometimes you have a very happy marriage for a short period of time. But ultimately you have this, this synagogue dealing with this problem in the city of God, right? Because Rome was gone. And no one believed that could happen. It was such a seemed like such a perfect marriage. How could this not work? Now we have the ripe time after the Pax Romana and here comes, here comes salvation. And now we have a means of distributing it to the ends of the known world. And all of a sudden it falls. Yeah. Well I think it's a practical matter for people kind of sorting this stuff out and as they approach a November election or election in two years, an election four years from now and then six years from now and so on and so forth. I think I would say put it in perspective that our faith informs us, forms our mind, is in concert with sound reason and right thinking. And that the way which church sees it is that the clergy of the church form and shape the faithful with respect to matters of faith and morals. And it is really the purview of the lay faithful and the people who are living their Christian lives by assuming certain roles in society but also being active agents in society that they're meant to be the ones who sort through the real considerations of practical wisdom and and various functions to creatively put forward policy laws in accord with right thinking, sound reason but also instructed by the truths of our faith, certainly never contrary to them. And that in that realm they're supposed to do some hard work. I think oftentimes what happens is people want the priests and the clergy of the church, bishops, to connect all the dots for them or if they come up with a plan that they think works they want all of the clergy, the bishops to support those programs and endorse. And that's where we're kind of caught because we're not interested in the first and foremost and a certain political outcome. We do have a general interest with respect to the common good and we need to shape the minds and the souls of the faithful such that they can rise to assume that responsibility in a right way in accord with their Christian faith. And so oftentimes we can be accused of not going far enough but we all know that it does sound kind of strange. It hits our ears and our souls wrong when a priest goes too far. It's not what the pulpits for. You're supposed to allow for the faithful to be able to appropriate and assume their responsibility to the degree in the extent in which you have a very well-formed group of faithful and the parish, then they're going to do great things in society. They're going to be the light in the leaven and they're going to be amped up and they're going to fulfill their roles not just in the parish but in the larger geopolitical world and landscape and they'll do wonderful things. But you can't really shortcut it. You can't go from all right well the bishops and or the priests of the church sort it all out and give marching orders to the faithful and they go out and do it. It's not really meant to be that way. We're not really supposed to do it that way. It's not certainly not how the church sees it. I got to be honest. I also find it really disheartening to see our political climate and culture so toxic and what I mean by that is you know for years I noticed when I was first ordained that I would get a flurry of phone calls from people who want to talk about problems in their families and they typically followed Christmas and Easter. Right because you end up talking about politics. Yes well people are getting together that time of year but they normally don't and then when they do they're engaging in politics and religion tends to be another one and things get tense and dicey. Well you know my advice then a preemptive set of advice you probably saved before. This is the humble this is the post closing prayer speech after before Thanksgiving. It was Thanksgiving not Easter it wasn't Easter so much. We've always done that. It was pre Thanksgiving and pre Christmas those were the two. You're going to be with family so listen up. You haven't seen them in a while. They believe lots of different things in you politically and religiously at least have one day where you can enjoy each other set all those things aside. If something comes up naturally providentially of course but otherwise don't take the bait. You're going to have some crazy young colt try to you know bait you and troll you or you can have some you know young whippersnapper coming up from college with all these ideas and they're going to try to bait and troll you. Just don't take it to say please. No thank you but just pass the potatoes and move on right. Let's just move on don't take the bait. Have a fun day enjoy each other because there's a reason why you get together presumably you want to be together. Why would you you know inject things that are going to create tension and conflict. Take that time to enjoy right. So then I discovered in the past few years that there are actually political groups who send out talking points for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Are you kidding. No they are attempting to radicalize family members to go and to have these talking points ready for these. As if we don't have sufficient amounts of polarization. Exactly. These are the times in years you should actually set aside some of these differences come together and really just appreciate one another and to think about how healthy our political culture could be would become if we could do that on occasion. But we're at a point now where it's almost not allowed. You know where if you're on a different if you're on a different political side of something you are considered to be enemies. Right. And that is toxic. It is just toxic. Yeah I mean this is the problem with identity politics right. You're no longer you know. And this is part it's interesting and ironic right that we have a society that doesn't want to be considered a part of a whole. And yet we're desperately joining a party. A party. Right. We're desperately joining something about which we can be a part and identify such with it without even even necessarily knowing the policy that it has. And I think that one way to diffuse the situation. It whether it's Thanksgiving or any other event is to the back just back up back up back away from the party back away from the the argument as it as it rages in the political sphere and begin to talk about purposes like what what is it that you think is good for the human person. Yeah. What do you think is good for the human person. Why. How do you think we should organize this and why. I mean get people again to think about how we're going to organize ourselves for flourishing. I mean it does take some of the bite out of it and I find it it sort of releases the tension and the pressure but more than anything you're actually just for a second listen to someone else's story. Right. Which everyone loves right. Everyone's in some level to be listened to. And why do you hold what you hold. I know this only because as a priest I'm sure you experience this too. I do have some members in my family that will want me to police every other member in my family and make sure that they're on board with everything. And and and I feel that when I walk into the room like they're waiting for me to do it because that's my job to make sure that everyone's on the same on the same page. And I typically don't take that route on the country which I'm a I'm a collar I don't mind taking that route but don't find it effective at all. No it's not. And in fact you have it easy because my father is usually lining up a list wherever we travel say it's on a cruise ship of all the people that he thinks I need to talk to. You know I know I cannot possibly I mean there were one time we were sat with all these various people you know because where the dining worked and we were on a cruise and you know he was certainly lining up all the conversations that needed to happen and you know it was full oh oh boy no I get it. So actually you notice thinking about it's kind of ironic that our American society has it has come to have a great distaste for proselytizing for religious proselytizing. However it has wholeheartedly embraced political proselytizing. It's a religion. It's but it's the same thing. It's just a different arena but political proselytizing is somehow not only considered permissible but actively engaged and embraced. Oh and when you don't hold the creeds you're supposed to hold. Yeah I mean ultimately you are there is an inquisition that takes place. Yeah it's a different type of proselytizing and so you know I'd like to think that we don't proselytize rather we evangelize and we do so according to the manner in which our Lord instructs us through the gospel is in the ways in which we ought and inspired by the Holy Spirit and the idea of proselytizing of getting in people's face I think we kind of be able to that's been set aside and rightfully so but the political sphere they saw that tool and ran with it and that's one which you know again we're talking about our American context you know that's that's happening you know that's true well before we go I have to say that I am wildly interested in making proper focaccio as of yesterday. You have to explain to people what that is. Yeah so focaccio is one of those words. Yeah it's just it's an Italian thing the Italians also have a thing called cecina which I love which is basically just pizza dough with olive oil flaky salt and rosemary cooked on a stone cooked on a stone right same thing you can make in as a focaccio it's slightly different dough but there's we were just talking earlier and what made me think about this is that we think that our Lord chose bread for his little sublime thing that we have on this earth of course his own body and blood because a carb is really the most sublime thing it really is that is edible it's I love car behind me they were my favorite thing and I was thinking about that relative to focaccio because a proper focaccio is so chewy and wonderful and good so I found a recipe the sisters found a recipe that you don't have to have a starter and it's probably not quite as good but man it's easy and it's fantastic so that's kind of what I'm thinking about right now that's what I was sorry so you brought up the food thing so all right my latest food thing is homemade lemonade really so yeah so you know you can buy bags of lemons pretty cheaply my years ago my brother Rich he got me one of those squeezers yeah the first time squeezer so it's really easy a juicer that's it it's amazing how few lemons are needed to make a pitcher of lemonade that that's pretty that's pretty strong just let me straight up lemon juice but then you know you add you don't add sugar if you add sugar if you want but I you know I like to add equally or you know somewhat one of these sugar substitutes and it's delicious I mean it really is it's just nice a good summer time yeah you're not getting lots of chemicals from mixing you know from pretty fab stuff you're buying the store and it's it's it's fresh it's delicious did you ever let have lemonade stand as a kid you know I don't think I did really I probably thought in my head that I should but I don't think I ever executed we never really had a like a neighborhood where you'd have people passerbys I did right we just didn't have that like sort of the sidewalk I was big on the lemonade stand did it work yeah not to my not to my satisfaction though which is the reason to this day that if ever I see a lemonade stand which is fairly rare but if I do I always stop and get some from kids and I always give them way too much money it's probably horrible for them I'm ruining their sense of what actual labor and and economic justice is you're encouraging panhandling I really do the very reason why people stand at the corners of these red lights because you started it I did it's my fault evokes sympathy and hold out a can well hopefully when you had your lemonade stands you declared your income and pay taxes on it great to see you all I talk to you have a great week and we'll talk to you guys soon all right job less thanks for listening to this episode of from the rooftop for updates about new episodes special guests and exclusive deals for from the rooftop listeners sign up at rooftop podcast dot com and remember for more great ways to deepen your faith check out all the spiritual resources available at 10 books dot com and we'll see you again next time from the rooftop