 Thank you so much that did set us up really well Beautifully Thank you all for coming. It's great to see you all some of you I know some of you I am looking forward to getting to know better My name is Jane Wenger and I'm a freelance drama Turk It's sort of like going to an AA meeting I'd like to welcome howl around here and welcome everyone out there I know some of you and the rest of you I'll end up getting to know you too through the rest of my freelance career Okay, can you hear me now? I'm always afraid of being a little too loud I live in San Francisco and I work Anywhere they'll have me. I have quite a few jobs here and there that run concurrently and we'll talk about those later I'm gonna do our introductions with my esteemed entrepreneurs I want to sing you a little song. I'm just kidding My name is Nekisa Edamard. I'm a drama Turk producer and director and translator based in San Francisco I specialize in new plays and musicals and I delight in all kinds of collaborations I'm the former drama Turk and literary manager of San Diego Repertory Theater San Jose Repertory Theater and the Wilma Theater in Philadelphia And now I am the your executive VP of freelance and the regional VP of Metro Bay Area for LMDA So thanks for coming to our panel Hello, my name is Amy Handelsman. I'm a freelance drama Turk. I Know Beth actually from when I worked at the Mark Taper Forum Which is now called Center Theater Group with the other two theaters. I freelance now I was in Los Angeles for 21 years. I started in theater in New York. I went to work in film and television in Los Angeles. I Created a department at the Taper CTG under the auspices of showtime to work with playwrights who wanted to get into cable television and film and Let's see what else do I do? I'm in the artistic council of the O'Neill I've consulted for a lot of theater development places I have carved a little bit of a of a specialty in Playwrights moving into other areas or adapting from other media. Hi I'm Sean Renee Graham I'm originally from San Jose, California and made my way east to pursue studies in dramaturgy I started my career as the literary associate at Hartford Stage Company where I ran some play development programs Mostly the voices reading series, which was a free series on Monday night and sort of got my feet wet with Producing sort of by by doing that Then I came to New York solely as a freelancer and started my own Consulting from all creative rights, which is providing artistic services to individual artists Helping them raise money helping them market themselves that kind of thing and also script development work with with new writers I work at the field as the artist services manager in which I spend my days Helping all artists from all disciplines lead Create develop sustainable lives for themselves I'm the literary director at the classical theater Harlem and I'm the resident drama target something called the American Slavery Project Which is? commissioning African-American writers to respond to slavery in America Don Coogler. I'm in Canada. I Came very late to dramaturgy and had no formal training in it I was working on my MA in English literature and to finish the coursework for the PhD In English literature in Saskatoon. I got a Canada Council grant to finish my thesis I bought a van and went to the east coast of Canada because all my friends are going to Vancouver. I Didn't really work on my thesis end up working to fish plant went to live with another couple on an island and work with them for nine years Building a house and eventually through this whole process working on a newspaper and fishing Got interested in community theater and went from community theater to do my MFA and directing at York and coming out of that started to freelance as both a production Gopher eventually a production manager and a dramaturge within the theater and then have continued that cycle Currently, I've landed in Vancouver where I am Instructor in the school for contemporary arts assignment Fraser University and I freelance as a dramaturge primarily in the development of dance and New plays but also do production dramaturgy as well Thank you. I didn't mention that my work is Specializing in new work only I've specialized in new work working with directly with the playwrights or a group of collaborators as it's being developed Since the pretty much the beginning of my career. I came up in my early years in New York, I was the artistic director of a group here called women's ensemble and In San Francisco, I was the artistic director of an organization called the Bay Area playwrights Foundation I have a wide range of work that is appealing to me. I work a lot with solo performers I directed an opera and dramaturged an opera in January that I absolutely love doing I also really like working with dance theater a lot and spoken word theater So those are some of the longer. I'm in the business the more exciting Things seem to fall my way But I don't think it's by luck. I think it's by making our own luck and creating our own situations by What is appealing to us? What we want to get better at Who we want to spend our time with? and so it's really about Also just being able to stay It's find a way. We're gonna talk today about finding a way to make this business Something that can also pay our rent Be able to let us pay off our college loans and how we can stay in the business That's rewarding as an art to us, but also how do we make that happen? So we'll we'll see what kind of answers we have for you and what kind of answers you might be able to add on to this so I'm interested in how my fellow panel members got into this field and You sort of answered that a little bit About saying That that wasn't what your intention was from the beginning So I'm gonna pass my mic to Nekisa and say how did you how did you get into this business? Was it your original intention and how did you know that you wanted to be a dramaturg? And did you know what that meant? Does this work too? So I had spent a year of study abroad my junior year in college at UC San Diego in Paris studying really crazy subjects in French like semiology semiology psychoanalysis film theory Some theater classes and at the University of Paris to a that's the sort new new Bell Sorbonne But anyway, I came back to school and I thought oh people in Paris live lives of art and it's okay So I came back and auditioned for an acting class that was too full and the Teacher did five-minute interviews with us and he asked me what I had been doing and I told him about the classes He said do you know what a dramaturg is? I said no He said you'd be a very good one come work for me And he was the associate artistic director at San Diego Repertory Theatre Todd Salovey who's still there And so he became my mentor I was his literary intern and then I became his dramaturg for the first show he ever directed there this was back in 1922 I think and So I started my career as a freelance dramaturg while finishing my undergrad degree Then applied to the MFA program and did an MFA in dramaturgy at UC San Diego And when I graduated they eventually created a position for me and I was the resident dramaturg and artistic associate so being at different regional theaters enabled me when I moved to London for a Short time that I could start a freelance career. I had made enough connections. And so that's how I'm Doing the work now So that's how I started How did I start um I went to a school that I thought had a drama department and didn't which was Harvard and Maybe they do now. I don't know so everything that I did was outside of academia and I Wanted to work in the entertainment business. That was as specific as I knew I didn't go to graduate school Somebody gave me good advice and set it a good way to learn about what aspect is to work at a large-scale talent and literary agency my first job was on a desk at ICM and I learned a lot there. I freelanced as a story analyst So I was working for a paramount and Warner Brothers and and UA and some smaller companies Reading books and going to theater and and doing coverage meaning writing about their dramatic possibilities for film or television I had a terrible breakup with a guy and went to Los Angeles And to see if I could work there because all of the story development jobs were there I paid a lot of dues in Los Angeles I worked there for 20 years not realizing that as a story executive or a creative executive or producer I basically was a dramaturg for those For film and television and then I got the perfect job working at a theater But involved with film and television the taper job, which doesn't I have never existed before I'm trying to create it to see if it can exist again. I liked what Jamie said about the entrepreneurial spirit I mean ambition I grew up You know women were still not supposed to be ambitious, you know on that old but The thing is when working in Hollywood, I mean what what I basically did was work with writers developing material, which is what New play dramaturgs do, but I also really really had to learn how to be entrepreneurial within the studio system Because you know all those jobs maybe every job involves selling So you have to be able to to pitch you have to be able sometimes to figure out how to raise funds You know how to market it to an audience all that sort of things So I ended up being not a reluctant dramaturg, but I ended up sort of backing my way into it from other forms I didn't think I could make a living in theater I do now I do now, but I also think it's easier when you have sort of hybrid skills And it's appealing to me not just to have my own business But to actually call it a business as opposed to you know Just being put myself up for hire somewhere as an independent contractor to say this is a business I think we'll get into it later about you know treating yourself as a business But I think you have to be scrappy still you know And I agree I've given you know, I think a lot of freelancers have a hard time You know making a contract for doing a certain amount of work. You love the writer You love the project you end up putting in a lot more time and you know you end up having financial problems Thank you very much before Sean Renee get started Could someone go around and pick up those questions off the table for us, please And thank you Amy, and I really like the idea of Continuing to talk about it as a business that really segued with what Jamie said and we will get back and talk about that some more I started out wanting to be an actor director type and as an undergrad I was at Cal Lafonya State University Los Angeles and at the end of my time there I ended up taking a criticism class with someone by the name of Susan Mason who Was very involved with dramaturgy and doing projects in that capacity and I started doing the writing assignments and she said You should be a dramaturge because the way you're talking about this work that you're seeing is so thorough and you know thoughtful that That's the direction. I think you should go in and then she at the time. She was also the Editor of theater journal and she said I want you to start seeing stuff around town And start writing about it because eventually I want to publish something of yours and I had just never really thought about it Honestly and so I ended up writing an article about the actors gang And their production of voidsack and she published that this summer that I graduated from Cal State LA And so then I took an internship at the Mark taper forum. The world is so small with Oliver mayor and Frank his last name Dwyer. Yeah, and I spent about a year there just reading scripts Working on some of the play festivals there and Oscar Eustis was there at the time a lot of different people were going through there Tony Kushner was writing angels in America It was just an amazing time to be At that theater But I also knew that I wanted to since I was getting so much experience with new play development that I wanted to Get more classical training, which I didn't really have I got the job at Hartford stage company Which I had mentioned before But what I found While there is that a lot of the Work that I was doing Reading and and responding to plays it wasn't really going any higher than right there in that that literary office It was just you know, that's what you do You would be a part of an artistic Meeting and and they would say well what plays do you have on your plate? You'd be really excited about it and they go that's great And then you would just sit there which for me led to a lot of frustration eventually of course it would for anybody and That that's kind of when I decided when I left there That's when I decided that freelance work was gonna be the way for me to go because I could control wood projects I was working on and and that how much time I put into it and Also really contribute to to an artistic process in a meaningful way, you know people really wanted you there That's what you did. But what I also found is that's it's hard to make make a living that way And so what I started doing was Using My other skills writing skills What I knew about producing and those kinds of things to help other artists get their their Stuff seen and done Because what I found was that led me to eventually becoming the dramaturg anyway Because I could be in all those roles I could be the best champion for the work alongside side the artist and so yeah, I'll stop there Okay While I was doing my MFA in directing I proposed to direct as my thesis project of my fellow playwright in the the thesis program MFA program and Our the director's advisor Was Richard Rose from the Nessie angel company and it's the company I've been scouting out all the theaters in Toronto and and that was the theater that most interested me And he just happened to be our that advises for the directors and he advised me strongly against doing the directing the play of the playwright in the MFA program and I said well, I don't know I think it's not where it needs to be But I think it can get there like I think it it can go and he said no you should really do Play because this is what you want to do I said no I'm gonna stick with this and then he came to see it and he said was that the same play And I said yeah, it was and he said oh You might be good at this And shortly after that I was working as a production dramaturg at Toronto free theater and freelancing as a Dramaturg at Nessie angel so working with him and reading scripts And it's a very good collaborative relationship because there was a huge pile of scripts there That which had never been read and been submitted to the company So I worked my way through all those writing up reports and having discussions with him trying to clarify the mission of the company with him and The the plays that I really brought forward to him that I thought were Were terrific we could have discussions about and then he and I would go meet those people But sometimes he would not be interested and then I say well Is it okay if I go and meet with those people and so I go off and meet with those and so I was creating a whole a Range of a connection with writers with whom I wanted to work Even if the company didn't work want to work with them and so that slowly evolved over time that relationship with that company And so that's that's kind of that. I guess the next step is like within a few years like three years in 1989 I Went to my first dramaturgy conference in San Francisco And When I came back I said to him I think that's what I am Thank you I had a early love affair with playwrights and From college and I don't have my MFA either. I don't have graduate degree and I moved to New York I'm from Michigan originally and I moved to New York and Did that New York thing came alone came up on the subway? I'll never forget it. There was a strike for Nathan's and they were all standing around saying don't eat at Nathan's till they hire back the workers and It was just indelible in my mind I had done summer stock theater I came up and stayed with friends who were playwrights the summer stock theater in Michigan had a Program where they had young writers writing young being college-aged people writing and so from the minute I was in this group with these writers. I Just loved being part of this new Development process. I did my internship at the roundabout I was at the roundabout for a long time and from there I Started this circle and it actually had been started women's ensemble, but it was sort of on its way out and in terms of ambition what that gave me was a circle of women writers who were creating new work and We worked out of what's called the Ellington room at Manhattan Plaza Which was a live work building for artists so they could sustain Themselves at the level that they earned So that was also really eye-opening to me to see that Liza Manelli had the penthouse but people that were On my level at the time of income. We're living in these great studio apartments I have friends that still live in those same studio apartments then and We met which I look at it now I don't know how we did it, but we met once a week and everyone read their work and By default I became a dramaturk and it was just amazing and I also had this opportunity from that to learn about the different aspects of Producing and putting on a show and I also learned the same thing from the roundabout at that time when I was hired there We were building I learned to read blueprints there I'm a firm believer that it's really important to learn Every aspect of theater that you possibly can my ability to read blueprints Change my life in terms of working with the set designer as a collaborator early in the dramaturgical process of developing work of starting pre-rehearsal work and so I think there's so much if you're curious and if you're ambitious that can Can help you build these careers and these people that you meet you just really never know When you're gonna run into them again, so I just think that The people that you meet are so important and What kind of plays you like and what kind of plays you're drawn to Will then also bring you to what kind of work you love to do I Have recently done we're gonna Talk about our dream projects a little bit But when you start working in a certain field and you fall in love with it Then projects in that area come to you I've been working with a lot of what would be probably called activist work or social activism But I didn't start out like that but the last six or seven years have been that's been my focus And that's also kept me always learning something different now. I know more about the Esselen Indians than I ever thought I would know but the great thing about dramaturgy, right? It's like we never stop going to school So I'm gonna take a couple of these questions Just pass some of these down and Nekisa if you would Read the first one No, just if sure Okay What is your dramaturgical superpower there there you go you have to answer now Now see if Nekisa can't answer this And this is why we're doing this dramaturgs we all have to think fast I'm not sure What her superpower is but I know she's a great listener I fly in my dreams and I have a lot of adventure dreams ever since I was little so I do think I'm a superhero by night but so I think it's Helping people soar soar to new heights and finding their true potential and bringing it to the surface and fighting for it We let your voice be heard playwrights and dramaturgs and theater artists My superpower is finding the money because and I say that because like I feel like we can wax poetic about all of what we like to do and and What kind of work we're drawn to and and all of that which is great It is that is a skill you should have which leads me to my Question here is you know, how do you determine the value of your work and compensation and all of that? I'll tell you a little story Recently my work with the classical theater of Harlem is largely about consulting. It's not It's not like I have a literary office there or whatever it's like Ty Jones came to me and said Would you take over these reading programs? Would you occasionally dramaturg or production? Blah blah blah, you know, so I said sure, you know You know what let's that that's always the first thing I say because I have to live I say What are you offering? Right, and I got to see a letter of agreement and I could tell you all of what I can do and everything But what are you expecting and what are you expecting to pay for that and there's always a negotiation? There always is and so what I I treat that kind of work like is is going on A retainer a monthly retainer at a certain amount of money that covers a certain amount of my expenses Depending on what they are. So if you're talking about running a reading series of monthly Facilitating something like that for someone right now my rate to do that is six hundred dollars a month Right A number a number right I have other income that I'm getting so in order to just Pick a play talk with that play right Call and get the space Be there for the reading in the rehearsal on that day That's what that cost because I got to read a few other plays to make my decision about that, right? As far as doing one-on-one script coverage with people say it like in my in my shop If people want me to read their play and give them feedback on it I have three different levels of doing that if you just want me to read the play and give you one page a general note It's a hundred fifty dollars if you want me to read the play and give you a more extensive report on it It's two hundred fifty dollars if you want to then talk about it Then there's add-ons for the consultation you want to talk on the phone as another fifty dollars You want to have lunch with me as another fifty dollars Menu And I get it and I get it. Yeah. Yeah, I do But I just want to say one more thing here and the person asked about increases per year on my retainer work Yes, I go up twenty five dollars a year On the month for the month This question is about that. Both of these are questions So that was the original story actually Someone wanted me to draw the chart a whole production a whole classical production rehearsals cutting the script Providing information to the actors and all of that and then proceeded to tell me We have about five hundred dollars in the budget for that At which point I said I get what the designers get for that kind of work Right, and I got it So I'm also saying it to say like really think about the scope of all of the work And no one to say no Because to do that kind of the work that I was being asked to do for five hundred dollars is ridiculous Two thousand Can I just can I just piggyback on that one thing in terms of rate? Because I you have to not be afraid to negotiate exactly. I'm developing a website It's in beta now I was told not to put my rates on on the other hand at least a straightforward you put your rates on so that's a question I want to talk to you about but the thing is that also you have to think not just in terms of the time but laying out of the timeline because I negotiated for a project recently I Negotiated an extra meeting. It was supposed to be three meetings The husband who is her manager said can we please have four but the way that she worked what I didn't realize was not You know, I'll read a script. I read a script for flow then I read a script and take notes But I don't take notes the first reading I read it for flow Okay, so there's that and I'm a fast reader but between the times when I was meeting with her I had to refresh myself of the original draft the subsequent drafts So it ended up being a lot more time-consuming which I'm gonna factor in now, you know I don't think people want to pay by the hour my hourly rate would be much more I don't know how you figure out, you know the poor starving artist from, you know, the lesser starving artist from You know the institution from the bigger institution, you know And my fellow colleagues about that but you know their factors in placing your rate That come into play that are always new for me and you can always I just want to say about that You could always do a sliding scale depending on where the artists are as long as you're honest about them about what they're gonna Get for that amount of money, right learning from the experience of reading and then I don't take notes on the first read either I do What I call a close read then I take notes. I explain this to my clients writers and I just think what you're saying about setting fees and being clear and being clear from the beginning and then sometimes you just Don't have a certain person who works with you Although I do recommend to people some other folks that I know who I know will work for less and That's not because they're like not as good. They might be younger You might have a different rate when you start I have a different rate now Than I had before and I do also have a sliding scale too, but I never It sounds kind of bitchy, but I don't read plays for free No, because I don't have that kind of time and So if you're a playwright who I'm just in love with and I ask you if I can read your script Then I'm reading it for free But in terms of you know what so many people ask you to read a play And for free and you you simply have to have the courage to explain to them Should you choose to do it that way that it's not for free? They wouldn't ask you To do whatever their job is for free either. So I think that's great Yeah, just I'll probably have some contrary opinions on this one thing I do Is I asked to see the budget Like what's the budget like what are other people what are other people getting like I just want to see where Where does this fall in the budget? You maybe maybe you don't have any money if you don't have any money and Everybody's committed the project and I'm committed the project. Okay. Well, let's go ahead. Let's do it, right? I'm keen on it. You're I'm as keen as you and I'm willing to put in as much sweat equity as you But if some people are getting paid a lot and other people are getting paid a little then let's let's talk about where we fall in that scale There's another variable for me, which is sometimes Actually quite often and probably more often in dance than in theater people ask me to work with them as a dramaturg and I say What do you think that means? And they describe something and I say well, yeah, I could probably do that. It's not I'm not very interested in that But why don't I come to your rehearsal and watch a performance and then I'll come and I'll talk to you afterwards and If my talking with you seems useful, then let's continue a discussion and Sometimes I say let's let's set the rate at the end of the project because I don't know yet how much I'm going to be involved in this project and If you're willing to wait, I'm willing to wait Because I can't predict now Where this project is going to go and I do read scripts for free not everything But I like I like to know what's out there. So I read a lot of scripts just because I'm curious I want to know what's out there and I say good for you And what's really great is to have a variety of different models of working because all we're doing is sharing what we do with you and I don't think there's a right way My stomach's quenched when you said you did the work and then negotiated the fee I mean, I actually have have have now Said to somebody before I'm going over and talking to them before we start talking This is the next payment that you owe me, you know, and it's been extremely hard for me to do that But I have done that, you know, I've certainly done things for love you know, I read scripts at these more established institutions for love one because I Have a better quality of playwrights sometimes because I want to be associated with them You have to know why you're doing stuff too I have a hard time now a lot of people in my life are grandfathered in a lot of writer friends You know, and I just I just can't bring myself to say, you know, you have to give me some money I just haven't been able to do it I mean, I have when I've actually worked really really in the nuts and bolts of developing the property But to read something that I can't do that. This question is all it's related I'm worried about two things insurance and financial stress can't read that word Any advice for a budding freelancer in the early career dramaturgs panel someone else Also said what other jobs can I do for money to sustain me while I go on and do this work Try to get my artistic job. So I came up with a few. I mean dramaturgs have so many varied Skills that we're really good at certain things. So I think we could be good museum or art gallery curators I think we'd be good copy editors or proof readers for magazines online publications any publications What else they come up with a salesman of any kind even retail sales if you love records selling records At least it's using your skills. So you may enjoy that kind of thing a librarian a Research librarian an information booth attendance of something I think we'd be really good at trivia and research that way We're very good at producing We're good event planners event coordinators Publications or marketing assistant Advertising So I don't know I'd also say to all of us. What skills are you good at? What are you the what do you do in your family life that they people go to you for that? Do you do all the taxes every year? Do you you know what and what skills do you enjoy doing? And maybe there's a job out there for you that you can do the nice thing with the 10 to 5 job 9 to 5 job or a part-time job is that if it's not something you adore You'll leave it at that closing time and then you'll have time for rehearsal or talking to your playwright Or doing your drama turkey. I just want to say that what's been a big part of my trajectory is With other artist projects is like I was saying doing things for them that will help the project along and at the same time Practice my dramaturgy and usually what that involves is you know people Again need to find the money so doing things like grant research and writing and and actually doing those grant applications You know for for the artist Writing marketing materials writing press releases Doing the social media part of it Along those lines what I also learned is a lot about individual giving and fundraising and Helping and counseling artists do that which led me to the job. I have now at the field In artist services, which is what I do all day long Artists call up with the various issues that they have They need their grant applications reviewed. They need their budgets looked at They need to run a crowdfunding campaign. How do you do that? How do you sustain that? and so I think that part of Getting to the point where you're practicing dramaturgy or at least the way it's happened for me all the time now Has been using those skills for people Because eventually they will come back to you and say oh and oh, yeah I'm rehearsals start on such and such a date so in terms of making a living I've been known to collect in various line items the budget in addition to the And I think if you figure out how to do that and figure out what works best for you whether that's just Say you're just going to do all the grant applications or say you're just going to do all the social media work Or whatever that you can't you you know You can Also, you know build a lasting relationship with that that artist that keeps bringing you back to to their projects over and over again I thought I found other jobs within the theater like I did a lot of production work and then eventually production management work but also University gigs just coming in and teaching a session of course something like that have been really Important along the line for me Often allowed me to think about plays often to even teach plays that I was interested in and it's just a relationship to Institution and a set of faculty and it moved me across the space the country a relationship with different Play development organizations while I was in Toronto. I had a relationship with the Saskatchewan play to play development center So I held a built relationships up there So eventually my community I tried as much as possible to get out of the the ghetto of Toronto So that my community I started to think of my community as all of Canada and tried to find working Relationships all across the country so that I could access those possibilities I wanted to piggyback on something that both of you said one I'm getting an MFA now actually not in dramaturgy but in writing because I also I also write and I have found with friends of mine that run departments and I would say look I could probably teach dramaturgy do I have to get an MFA and they said well Yeah, and I said why and they said because if you're teaching to MFA student, you're supposed to have that level of degree So you have a PhD other you don't anyway. I don't have a graduate degree at all So I can't even adjunct. I mean is that competitive an adjunct for $5,000 at best a semester I Took a job a day job as the executive director of a dance company Which I dearly love but being the executive director talk about staying up nights worrying about payroll You know, so I thought I can do this part-time. It'll balance my career as a dramaturg I think you also have to do a cost-benefit analysis of where your energy is what you know how much you're thinking about things when you're not actually at the job and Also, it's interesting Sean or now you were talking about because even though I'm a really good dramaturge on our productions We have a dramaturg who's fantastic But I am put in the business role now not in the creative role, which I find astonishing because I think of myself as a creative I actually feel I'm pretty balanced and can do both but I have found I couldn't switch hats in the same company I Wanted to respond to one question. Do you advertise yourself using dramaturg as a title? Or do you call yourself something else for the sake of easier marketing which I'm facing now with this website? I am calling myself a story consultant because I've worked and I'm marketing myself as working in film television and theater People do know what dramaturge is in theater and they respect it. Sometimes I use the E at the end. Sometimes I don't Sometimes I've thought it should be Creative consultant, but is that vague? Sometimes I thought it should be a producer, but I think that that raises the level of expectation Somebody wrote an article about me in dramatist magazine and called me a creative midwife Which I've used in the website somebody said to me you should use that as a title You should actually I don't know if you can trademark it could market or whatever You can get the domain name and I said some people think that's really wonderful because I'm helping give birth to Plays other people have said midwife. Oh, that's like Birkenstocks and you know hippie and Yeah, so but it's a good question. I think dramaturge in theater is fine and other fields. It's people don't know what it is In general, I call myself a creative consultant, but In my mind, I always call myself a dramaturge because I think there's something psychologically helpful about that in knowing that that's That's always what I want to pursue and that's actually the real service. I want to provide to people. Yeah, I Just wanted to share my personal business card You will never see this but it is the Pronunciation of the word dramaturge and it's spelled like a dictionary definition and it says it has the name The syllables the pronunciation then it says noun number one and no definition. So people have to ask me what it is But I you know I I always call for 20 years I've called myself the midwife in the birthing of a play and I have to I Ended up now on the back of my resume I have a page that's called what is a dramaturge and I first wrote it for my mother-in-law Because she's wanted to explain it to her friends what her daughter-in-law does she didn't know so it's trying to be basic It has synonyms for dramaturge and a basic definition and then a little list that's more detailed of all the different things I do dramaturges do and It's on the back of my bio my resume whenever I send it out or my bio and So I you know I want to someday live in a world where people know what it is People know how to say it that they don't spell it with an e at the end because that's dramaturge is a playwright in the French language with the e at the end but Yeah, that's I'm going on tangents. Go ahead I want to keep to your questions. We have about 20 minutes left And so we want to keep you engaged and I also want to mention that questions that you didn't get answered or Thoughts that you have for the rest of the conference Please come up to the people on this panel and engage them with those questions and and tell them what's on your mind to Raising money I do not teach at a college, but also I do have enough friends who teach at colleges that have me come in and run At San Francisco State, I do what's called the master class in dramaturgy At University of Illinois as well. And so a couple of times a year those things help and those things are also in the budget I think one thing you have to be prepared for and good act is juggling jobs and I don't really think too many people are very good at multitasking. I don't believe you can Read your email and think about it while you're crossing the street But you do have to negotiate several different jobs if you're going to take a job in my case with a theater That's an established theater and go in for one gig six-week job Five-week job then my other clients have to go by the wayside. Do I lose them? How do you work with that? So there's just I love it. I love it. I'm Feel so fortunate to be able to have the relationships with playwrights I feel fortunate to be able to travel. I like traveling a little bit less than I did before But I feel really fortunate, but definitely juggling. So Any questions here that you guys have that you want to answer great and then I I do want to ask the my fellow panel members to Before we wrap up about a dream job of theirs a dream dramaturgy job So I want to just keep us to finish with that One question that I have which has just come into my life now I was always single and now I'm engaged and the question is seeing as more of us can get married now What advice would you give to a married freelancer with regards to making a family and a travel-heavy career job? I don't have children. So that's a huge thing that I don't have I've had to negotiate with my partner about travel and even time away at night I think the people that I know that have children have great partners Sometimes they take institutional jobs so that you know, they can come home at night and and do less travel But I think it's it's a negotiation with the partner. I don't know anyone who's a single parent and is a dramaturge Maybe you guys have children and can answer this this work life balance when you have a profession where there's travel and a lot of night Work I think is is Negotiation by negotiation with the partner and having a really really strong bond I don't I know a lot of us without children and I don't know any single parents So when you're ready to your question Yeah, it was basically when do you know when to transition from work for experience to work for pay How do you know that you're gonna be worth it? How do you know you have enough value built in that you can ask for? The money that you need. I mean if you're feeling that way, you're probably ready Right, you've got that impulse That means you've learned stuff and now you want to do stuff, right? That's part of that impulse you're feeling I Would say when you're starting to build up a resentment. I would say always ask for something From the beginning. That's what I'll say. I don't think you I think We often as artists get in the habit of doing stuff for free Because we want experience or we feel like people won't value what it is we have to offer or whatever I think it goes back to Also, like He was saying looking at the budget and saying what do you have? I'm a big advocate for the for the work that you're doing to always place a value on it yourself first and then saying what What have you budgeted for this? I need to get something and then start increasing it from there because if you start out that way Chances are you're going to end up that way or more often than you want to and let's just be honest the rent has to be paid and you have to eat and The accepting nothing is what makes us crazy, right? It makes us crazy and then we can actually Contribute to the work that it that we need to in order to make it better. And so yeah, don't go hungry Just say you know for this amount of work This is this is what I can afford to do for you is what you want to say. I always advise the students Never say no for them Never say no for them. In other words ask make them say no Sometimes it's very hard for people to say no to you, especially if you're in the room looking face-to-face And make them say no and even them saying no may start a conversation It may lead to something else may lead to something fruitful But if you say they probably will say no, so I won't ask then you've gone nowhere I also like to say as you transition and start asking for money be realistic with your level of expertise And experience and you can start you can be a little bit of a bargain initially And as you get more work or repeat the clients, then you can start raising your fee And once you prove your value to someone they'll start to say, okay, you deserve a little raise you know, and then you start to get a reputation and It it'll soon become a career Thank you for those great questions. I'm so glad that we got to a lot of them I want to say that at the general meeting. I think that Scott Horstein and Brian Quirt are gonna talk about Contracts, I know that there was contracts as an issue. I sent a lot of blank Documents to them over the last six months that I just whiteed out my fees and who it was for but a lot of different samples Samples with just one-on-one Also, we want to protect the playwright I don't I don't ask for the right of first refusal for my clients if their show is going to go Into production and I know it and I must be associated with it then we have to have that discussion But I want to protect them as much as me That's a whole range of discussion to be aware of are you only doing it because you want to go do it? You know X or Y Z theater. Are you prepared to do it? It's a short-term job. Just what are your Expectations? What do you expect from that? So I think keep that in mind, too So we have just a few minutes about Well, we have longer than that, so we'll just tell longer anecdotes Oh, yeah, I'd rather answer your questions than anything Tips for a business plan. So I've read recently that they're becoming passe I don't know if they're becoming passe or not for me I've written them and I have found for me and helped other people I just find it's just an exercise even if you don't use it to clarify thinking a lot So I mean the thing that I like to cover of course is how much is this going to cost for me to launch and what's my overhead? You know you have to think obviously about pricing which we talked about a little bit But really how are you defining yourself in the market and how are you different than somebody who's who's out there because? You know you could say well, I'm better, but they don't know that, you know, so I think some of it is just a Marketing question of how you're presenting yourself to the world Who else is out there? Some of it's just information gathering when I was doing my website I looked at a lot of other people's websites which helped clarify to me what I liked what I didn't like A question though, that's I guess somewhat related no I don't have a business plan except for in my head, but I do know how much money I have to make every year and every month and I have to Work on things I I will say it seems like a luxury, but don't take jobs. You don't like Because if you don't like the writing it's gonna Don't even put yourself in that play right through it. It's not going to work. It's just not gonna work It's gonna be a bad situation. I wanted to ask you about cutting your losses I think that Amy you had mentioned that a little bit and we're so much my question to Amy is when when do you know? That perhaps this is a job you shouldn't take or how do you get out of it or Amy mentioned it to me earlier, so Well, I just had one experience with it recently where it the job didn't even be I didn't have to leave the job The job was presented, but we had meeting after meeting after meeting and I realized there was no job So at a certain point I basically said I'm not sure that we should meet again You know I would love to work with you and I did and I meant it It wasn't you know in order to manipulate I said I'd love to work with you on this project But you know this is actually a dance theater piece where she had an obligation to New York live arts to put on something in the season and She just was over committed She wanted to do a film project that was sort of moving from dance to film and she knew that I had that area of expertise We had four or five meetings Which was maybe two or three too many and I realized there was no job But I haven't had the experience of actually having to either fire somebody or you know have a big blow-up or you know some Catastrophe, I think sometimes they just go away You know this is true in the university system too. I have a relationship with a university That's doing a project with their students I won't say the university, but the project is very interesting. It's about Edward Snowden I do a lot of Skype work by the way or in Google Hangout work That's another thing for you to be aware of I'm sure that you are but the money is the same if I'm in front of you Or on the other side of the country So I use that quite a bit. It also works great for collaborative discussions with the dramaturg So if you do do that, please always test it first nothing annoys me more that Skyping into a meeting that hasn't been tested first and then talk about our time our time is wasted 15 and 20 minutes when it doesn't start but The university was doing a devised long-term project about Edward Snowden and I had four really long Skype meetings with them and it was clear to me that this project was maybe going to be in 2017 and so I just talked to the head of the drama department and excused myself and told them that please get back to me when they were a little bit farther along I Wanted to do it and I could feel that I was going to keep logging back on to the Skype meetings or Circle jerks, so sometimes you really just have to Yes Hi, my name is Martine for those of you who have not met me yet So I'm gonna take something that's been happening on Twitter and bring it out to you guys about the conversation we've been having so One of the things that came up online was What do you do in the instance when for example a theater you say? Something like I don't I'm not gonna work on this because you're not meeting the the money that I need and then they decide Okay, well, then we just won't have drama turks done and Then and then they and then they kind of then become weird about the relationship with drama turks to the point where they don't have them Anymore at all and then and the reason why this conversation was coming up is because in the area for example that I live in There are very few theaters that employ drama turks to begin with so then when that happens Maybe not saying that it happened. Maybe saying that it did but in that case Then now there's yet another theater that won't hire us So what advice would you have? I'm gonna pass the mic. I don't have any experience in that area because I work less with theaters and more with individuals I've worked haven't worked With an institution in many many years, which is the reason why I created my own business in the first place I Just found a new community It's I don't know it's the same goes when one door closes another one opens and it's you know, that's cliche, but That's what I ended up doing Actually have another comment, which is that I know some place there's a tension in some places with drama turks There's a tension with some directors with drama turks and institutionally and I know a very very well-known drama turk who's at a very very well as well established Place and some of the writers he's in a festival and some of the writers that he works with just don't want him in the room You know, he's maintained the relationship with the institution that respects his work and I think that there are different levels of participation when you're dealing institutionally as opposed to just one-on-one And I think sometimes you have to be willing to say you know what I really want my voice to be heard I'm an advocate for the play you can firmly believe that and if they're not respectful as long as you know You're still involved and you make a piece with it. You can maintain that or not work there Breaking breaking me a little bit. So you're saying that I'm like what? So you're saying that the theater now doesn't want to work with drama turks and they're putting a stop to hiring them What do we do or what advice I go knock on the door and set up a meeting Whatever kind of bribery that takes have a coffee bring it bring coffee with me something or other That that kills me a little bit like That's because you haven't worked with the right drama turk maybe or it wasn't the right personality combination or The project wasn't quite ready for one or something like that like that makes me want to educate and try again knock on the door in a more subtle way and You know say hey, well, what don't you like about it? What what's scaring you? Like have a call have a frank conversation about it So for every role the theater wasn't paying well Or just for drama turks, so I'd go to oh do you have assistant directors? Do you have administrative assistants like the things they pay for that's less than the high-paying jobs? And try to say well, this is what we do. It's pretty equivalent to that job. You're paying for Maybe that's another way and there's a there's a conversation It's educational, but you can have a conversation you just bring in the guidelines and have a conversation around the guidelines And say here is a kind of range of roles and here's a kind of range of activities and here's a range of Prices I Don't know I'm More black belt about it, you know, I mean if they really are the disposition that that has no value I Would say you know what they're you know, it's like when you're dating next, you know I mean, I don't know I don't know if they're living in a place where there is enough work for that person You know should they move to Chicago should they move to? New York, I mean when New York is crazy, but you know, I don't know that I could be so persuasive if that attitude It's seemingly so narrow This is the first time in my career that this year that I Took my name off of a play or a project and had a Unsuccessful collaboration. I was wondering if you had any thoughts No, I mean I think that I think that we've probably all Experienced dramaturgs have had unsuccessful maybe collaborations in the past. So your Your suits your question is or your comment is that you had a You took your name off the program as a dramaturg And how did that make you feel I? See So I'm sorry that happened to you. I've never taken my name off a project before and I I'm going to make an assumption that what you learned from that terrible experience that it's never going to happen to you again Right Yeah, anything else trending on Twitter that we That we can answer Hi Simon from the spiderweb show and I'm into the Twitter sphere over here And I have a question from Coriana Moffitt who wanted to know if you guys have any thoughts about health care for freelancers Health care for freelancers. So are there health care options for freelance? There's Cobra when you quit a job I don't know are there independent? I Thank, you know our president. I mean, it's it's different. It's different now, but for me Stupidly I've gone without I've tried freelancers Union. I've tried, you know, I also writes. I've tried media bistro I've tried other organizations that have health care. I don't think there's ever been a time where It's been more realistic to be able to get affordable care since the affordable care act I mean when I've been at institutions, it's come with the job But I've been plenty of places where I haven't had that offer. Yeah, that's what I was going to say finding membership organizations that partner with insurance companies, but yeah, the health exchange is now and the subsidies Could be pretty helpful if you just look into that And then there, you know, there are different I don't know, you know whereabouts in the country the person is but you know There are low-cost services that here like the Ryan Health Center or the NYU has a program that I know a lot of actors use It's it's not well, it's probably no more or less convenient than your average doctor's appointment There's a weight and you know, but eventually you will see someone For a sliding skill cost. So I would just look for programs like that in whatever area you're in. Yeah, it is better for us now I I pay for my own That's that's part of the rub And then if anybody's interested Canada has universal health care We've got an answer to that question and then we'll get to this question Oh, I just want to say quickly about the affordable care act It's really important to to talk to your fellow colleagues and to find out which plans are working well in which plans Alright, so start a community start talking about which doctors are taking which care for women to like, you know, which you know like Planned Parenthood is amazing and not and does full-on health services So like but really talk to your community and use them and find the forums to see which health programs are working Thank you I think it's such an important part of the aspect of being a freelance career person and you had an answer over here and then we're going to move to Asking our panel to just tell us one short dream job of theirs That's how I'd like to wrap up with hearing about just something that was a career highlight This is just so under this duress I found out if you sign up at a university for one course and pay the tuition and the health insurance given that if it's a large insurer insured pool as It was in this case it came out to half the cost of comparable health insurance and they could choose any doctor Thank you This has been a great exchange. Thank you for being so engaged. We're not wrapping up But I just want to say thank you very much for your attention and being this engaged Long-term ongoing projects is something that I personally love not only long-term relationships with playwrights that are dear to me, but I have a couple of projects one in specific I Have worked with a fellow called deek weaver for a long long time and he has a project called an Unreliable bestiary and he's going to do it for the rest of his life, which means I Get to be part of that project as his dramaturg For a career, you know a career project like that and that is a really exciting thing for me is to develop long-term Relationships so DD. Do you want to start and just give us a career highlight? Well, there's lots of highlights, but I guess so I Moving from Theater proper and dance. I've started to work with the people writing pros So working with jeff parole on towards a dramaturgical sensibility working with him on that project over Probably three years and that moved into his he's in the middle of writing a novel and I'm working with him on As a dramaturg on that novel so all day Sunday We've devoted to my notes on that and then later we'll be going to Liz Engelman's hangout Later in the month and working for a week on the novel there So that's a that's a really long-term very engaging dramaturgical relationship Wonderful. Thank you. I don't really have any long-term things on the horizon I kind of feel like I'm living my best life right now with every with a combination of things That I'm doing and getting to do and in terms of working with people between my work at the field and My work at the classical theater of Harlem and the American slavery project I just feel like every day is a a new variety of something to get into but what I am really enjoying the most Right now is that my work Helping other artists sustain their creative lives is really important to me and The exchange with that is is great I mean just giving and getting back and people call you later and it leads to something else is is what you want like So I don't really I don't know if that answers the question. No, I think it's about a career highlight It sounds like you're in your career I want to speak to short-term gigs because I got hired by somebody recently She was an established writer. I find it easier to work with more established people I think they're more realistic and respectful And she's a playwright, but she was moving into into film and she had a studio pitch And she had to do over the phone because a lot of times I don't want to spend money now to fly you out for a meeting and She just wanted to rehearse what she was gonna say on the phone and give me money You know which I do for free with friends all the time. So I love that, you know, I sat with her She picked pitch the project it ended up being dramaturgical because I said, you know what? I'm getting lost here or you know, you've repeated here or how is that the through line? It ended up being dramaturgical, but it wasn't set up that way The other thing I just wanted to say in terms of like career highlights When I had the job at the taper under showtime One of the things that I liked about it was that they expected that we would work with artists artists from different Disciplines and at different points in their life and bring in novel directors bring in novel actors. I Worked what I'm not saying this to boast at all because it was before he Actually, you know, he became so hot But I worked with Don Cheadle on a project where He had written a play in this developmental lab called blacksmiths Which was for African-American theater artists and he wanted to make it into a film because of who he was I didn't have a problem setting it up at showtime. I had a small discretionary fund, which I realized is a complete luxury But I gave him notes on how to do a rewrite. It was very clear as brilliant a man as he is He is an actor and now an actor director. He was not going to sit by himself in a room and rewrite it So he'd written a play for four of his friends in a hotel room right before one of them gets married And so what I did was I said, okay, we're going up, you know, we're gonna work with your original actor friends We're going to the hotel room. You're gonna have a camera You're gonna shoot them as they do stuff and you're gonna figure out how to do the rewrite that way and and it worked So, you know, some of it is sort of figuring out how it is if you're working with an untraditional artist How to how to figure out how to present the notes or bring the best work out of them And I think of that as a highlight again not because he's a superstar But because I felt like my creative contribution was figuring out how to get his best work out of him Thank you I've been very fortunate and I have a lot of highlights that I'd love to tell you about in some funny stories. So I Think one I'm gonna say two the two highlights. So an old one is doing a Doors musical at San Diego rep called Celebration of the Lizard with Ray Manzarek as one of our co-producers and In a workshop we did we had Billy Zane playing our stranger and it was a post apocalyptic LA story and Using the lyrics of Jim Morrison's songs as the text and finally we said well We got to add a little more in between because it's a little bit of a drug trip epic poem play so and Grace Jones was our queen our lizard queen and That was the most fantastic workshop probably I've ever done with grace coming in with her cape on and she had She always had shrimp for lunch in this silver bowl And she had a bottle of champagne and a driver and we're in this little weird rehearsal hall and what was then a part of San Diego that wasn't very wealthy and it was quite hilarious, but in my Career I adore working with my playwright Marcus Gardley. We've done about ten collaborations And I actually will talk about a recent Highlight was one of the first times I was called a co-collaborator in the writing of the play it was a Margo Halls and Marcus Shelby's bebop baby a musical memoir in at z-space this past year and They and I was it was written by Margo Hall in collaboration with Nekisa Edamard and also Dramaturgy by Nekisa Edamard so it was very wonderful to be a Co-creator and not just a dramaturg and I was helping She's a famous actress in the Bay Area and helping her learn how to write her own story and To have top billing that way too and be on the poster with them And having the two names my husband actually bought the huge bus side Because he was excited. My name was on there. You're getting credit. Yay dramaturgs He had it framed and it's in my living room So that that was a really wonderful recent highlight. Thank you Nekisa, and I'm glad you got that credit as co-creator to it's important I Have a couple career highlights too, but I'm only going to give you one brief one which was from a conference that I'm a frequent guest artist at in Valdez, Alaska. It's called the last frontier theater conference. I met this is quite a few years ago about seven years ago I met the state's writer Laureate and her name is Anne Hanley and she was in the very very beginning stages of writing a piece about the Athabascan Indians and it was spurred from The fact that in Alaska there is so much teen suicide in the male teen boys Community it's an epidemic and it's really an epidemic. So the play was such in such an early stage it we developed it and It was an amazing it's where one of those things where I think journey that word I really don't like applied and it's touring currently into The bush and I have had the opportunity to fly into tiny towns of 150 people where absolutely everybody has a brother and uncle a son who has taken their own life and in the course of trying to find out how to Shape the piece because these families get a lot of talk about don't commit suicide It's a really bad thing to do and that doesn't really help them a lot And so the writer developed a character who was exactly their age We played music that was their age there was a video element developed because the kid was stuck on his video and I Believe that it has changed some at least one life that I know of so that was a career Highlight for me and it did show that theater can really change the world and we know that so Thank you all for being such a great audience. Thank you for coming and thank you to my really esteemed Okay, you have 15 minutes go to bathroom come back here from some critics