 Hello and welcome to MIP TV. And with me as always is the wonderful Bob Cook, the man of letters and in this case books. And we're going to be looking at a really interesting book and one I think that needs a little bit of care. That's the sense I get because, you know, what's talked about in the book. You know, there's a lot of fables and fantasies and misinformation. Share with us the title of the book, Bob. The title of the book is interpersonal diagnosis and treatment of personality disorders. Yeah. Now, diagnosis is a particular element of transactional analysis. It's not something we would have in person center therapy. But in TA, there is a module of training, isn't it? So just tell us a little bit about that just to put the book in context, Bob. Yeah, sure. I will. And just before that, you know, tell me if I'm right. And I'm not sure whether, you know, well, I am right, I think, but I'd like your take on this. In this country, in the UK, there's no governmental legislation and licensing to be cast on psychopurpose. And since about, you know, the mid 90s to 2017, you've had the two major regulating bodies, UKCP and BACP striving to get licensing. Now, in the, I think it was 2002, might have been a bit earlier, the BACP and UKCP were talking together to get a definition of what's the difference between counseling and psychotherapy. Yes. And they only came up with one, what difference could you believe? Yes. And the difference was this, that in counseling training, it was in the training. And that was the in counseling training. There was no teaching of how to work with psychosis and personality disorders. And in the psychotherapy trainings, of course there is. Yes. And is that correct? That is correct. Yeah. It's certainly in person centered therapy or even integrative therapy. Well, he talked like CBT and person centered. There is no diagnostic element in the counseling world. Yeah. So this book really, though very interesting for counselors, of course, you know, interesting what you're just talking about. It is aimed really at the psychotherapy training market. So for us, not just transactionalists, I was thinking of the disciplines, especially in the more psychoanalytical disciplines. We, you know, the trainees have to know it's very useful for people post qualification, have to know how to work with people with personality disorders. Now, it's true, I think, that you wouldn't take on somebody who's got personality, you know, diagnosis or disorder, I mean, for some time, even after qualification. I'd agree with that. Yeah. So that's another story. But this book goes through really well. Well, if we look at the DSM five that psychiatrists received in this country, which is the diagnostic statistical manual five just came out last year, you've got you've got certain classifications of personality disorders. Yes. We know borderline, historotic, schizoid, paranoid, obsessive compulsive, narcissistic, you know, we've got certain classifications. And in the psychotherapy training, specifically in transaction analysis, you're correct. But I was thinking about the discipline as well. They look at these different classifications and talk about a treatment plan of how it would work. Let's take, say, the borderline personality disorder, for example. But I've just said this list, of course, more different more. It says, right, if you, if the client falls into certain clusters, then we will diagnose them or say borderline, for example. And then they may suggest a certain treatment forward of working for borderlines in the DSM five, for example. Now, in the psychotherapy training, our Institute has often quite a detailed treatment planning, specifically from TA anyway. How you might work would say the borderline or the historotic personality. And of course, the pitfalls and the areas to keep away from as a therapist. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, when we hear about personality disorders, I think it's quite a harsh phrase, certainly for someone who is struggling with their mental well-being. I think a better phrase would be a outlook of the world, you know, where people's outlook of the world. And certainly borderline, it's my understanding that it's the clue literally is in the name. It's the borderline between someone being kind of like the worried well where they've got everyday issues, but crossing over into psychosis, where they may be disconnected or disassociated from reality. Yeah, that's a good way. So what this book does, it goes through at least six classifications. For the sake of this book, we'll call them personality disorders. Though I really like your other word about the world. I really like that. Yeah. Or the emotional confusion could be another one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But the sake of the book, it goes through these different classifications and talks about what clusters you would look out for. You know, so say, for example, if you talk about paranoid, whether in this case, personality disorder, you'd be looking from things like suspiciousness and jealousy and mistrust, and they would be themes you would look out for. Now the major difference if we're going to look at, say, the worried well to personality disorders, is probably to look at in terms of a continuum of health. So in the neurosis or worried well, they've got more, if you like, they've got more, well, connectedness, I like that. I like that term of yours. Transaction analysis, it would be, they have more of a robust adult or they're more in the here and now. But with personality disorders, they're more disconnected. They're not in touch with the here and now. And they, there's more of a break in reality. And they're more fixed in the way they see things. And their psychological mental processes aren't so flexible as would be with the neurotic well. So you have a sort of continuum of health from one sphere to the other. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, when you start, we started off by talking that, you know, one of the major differences, as I think between psychotherapy training and counselling training is that, you know, I think, I think even I will be as bold as say counselling training, sometimes riles against diagnosis. And there's an element, I think, of colleagues in the counselling world who kind of rally against that. And, you know, think that this is more of a medial model, less of a social model. And, you know, they are entitled to their opinion. And more labelling. Yeah, more labelling. And I think, you know, that's a whole different debate we could have, Bob. But yeah, so the book itself helps people diagnose. It's, it's a, is it DSM is a very plinital, very in-depth book. Is this more of an introduction, would you say? Yeah. Yeah, you are. DSM 5 is really for psychiatrists, as you say. And it's, it's very sort of, yeah, medical model, if you like. This is more of a, more on a general sweep, more introductory. Yeah. But it also is looking at themes and patterns that you would look for with each particular in verdicts or commas, if you like here, personality disorders, people who have to touch with reality more and who have more fixed patterns and themes. And once those have been identified, how you might work in terms of treatment planning and going forward with that type of person, even if it's only as basic on how to help teach a person how to ground themselves. Yes. And they find themselves disconnected. Yeah. Or how to help a therapist do grounding techniques. Yeah. This has got a, having a psychosis in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's something that, you know, happens a lot. I sometimes teach the three finger technique, getting someone how to count, count three fingers and bring that brings that kind of cognitive level up and manages the kind of limbic system. But I think one plea for this, and I know it's your book review, Bob, but I'm going to make a bit of a plea here. Yeah. Is that, you know, clinical assessment is a real discipline and it's a taught discipline. You teach it and you teach it really well, Bob. My worry would be that people would rush out and buy this book and all of a sudden, you know, in the same vein as someone might say, how to be a heart surgeon. Ah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I understand where you're coming from. I hear that, please. But it really isn't, I really wouldn't want people to do that. No. Because then they would be doing a set of techniques or doing psychotherapy by the book and they would find themselves in real problems. Yeah, absolutely. Unless you focus on the relationship first anyway, regardless of whether this is treating personality disorder or not, you've got great problems. So I really respect that plea. Yeah. I think it's about supervision. And also I think it's, you know, I think, you know, I know TA supervisors would understand treatment planning, would understand that. Counseling supervisors may or may not. And, you know, coming from the counseling world as they do, I know a lot of people listening to this are really eager to be the best for the clients and really want to work hard and, you know, really want to be the best they can be. But, you know, some things I think need training and support. And, you know, generally speaking, speaking generally here, the counseling world, as we said earlier in this, doesn't do that kind of an assessment. So, you know, I think it's useful for your students in training. Tons of assessment and formulation. Definitely. If you're being supervised using it and if you're being taught how to do it. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I like the point of view in treatment planning. But I'll also give a plea for formulation. Now, formulation is much more around doing assessment through narrative. In other words, the story. Yeah. Person. So, I like formulation as well. But this is a good book. Yeah. I particularly teach students and post-qualifying therapists themes and patterns. Yeah. The words from different classifications. Yeah. So, yeah. So, maybe just in terms of just being aware of, of, you might have clients who's, you know, you're working with and all of a sudden, you know, you realize they may have a personality disorder. That could be for someone who's not trained in treatment planning a referral opportunity. Absolutely. Yeah. So, two of these are narcissism and schizoid. Yeah. Yeah. This is a two classification. Yeah. Most people have heard perhaps the word narcissism, you know, a sense of entitlement. A person who will be the center of our own universe and tends to be a, this is unhealthy narcissism. A person who perhaps lacks empathy. We might be thinking of an American president here or not. I don't know. I've no idea who you're talking about, Bob. And then we think of, say, schizoid. Now, schizoid are people who are withdrawn. They're very internalized. Yeah. They're people who are very disconnected. They're people also very adapted to the therapist. And how would you, how you would work with those two classifications would be very different? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting in itself. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. And I think, I think, you know, no knowledge is wasted. You know, as I say, I think it's, I think it's, it's, for my understanding, I mean, talk counseling, I've never talked to you at practice level. But I would say that, you know, it does need a guiding hand and certainly the wise hand on the tiller of supervision. Oh, a lot of supervision. For these characters, you will have a lot of supervision you have to. Otherwise, you know, otherwise you'll be in deep, deep, deep problems. Yeah. No, you definitely need a lot of supervision. If you're going to take anybody who's got a personality disorder on, you need a lot of supervision, and it's in depth therapy of quite a long length. Yeah. And I'm aware that we might have people watching this book review who have personality disorders. I think what I'm gaining from this is just, just how much care and effort and training goes in to helping a client who may be, because it is a struggle. It is a struggle. It is undoubtedly a struggle. Oh, very much so. And, you know, the way the National Health Services today is not geared up for long term in depth for psychotherapy. It's not. So Bob, as usual, Bob doesn't get paid for doing book reviews or indeed sharing his wit and wisdom. But it's a personal diagnosis and treatments of personality disorders by Lorna Smith Benton. I think it is. Is it? It's Lorna Smith Benjamin. Benjamin. I can't read me on writing. It sounds like it must have for anybody who's doing clinical competences. It's an interesting book. So as always, we'll put a link in the comments below. And I'll put a picture at the end so people can have a look. And as always, Bob Cook, thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed.