 Good morning, my name is Mark Shklov. I am the host of Law Across the Sea program here at Think Tech. Today we have an interesting program. We talk about domestic law and international law and how they interact. The title of the show is Leaving on a Jet Plane. And it deals with the globalization of law and how it affects family law, which most of us think of as something that is very private and very restricted to where we live. But now that people are traveling all over the world, it changes. Law changes just like humans do. And also some things remain the same. And I'm going to talk to my guest, Blake Okimono. Good morning, Blake. Good morning, Mark. Good to see you. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me here. My pleasure. And you just came from court where you were serving as a per diem judge. Yes. I was presiding in the criminal traffic arrangements calendar. Okay. But most of the time you're a family law lawyer. Is that right? I have been. For about four decades. For 40 years. And I know that because you and I went to school together, law school together. Yes. And we even studied together for the bar exam. And after passing the bar, you went one way, I went another. I mostly do business law, but you ended up in family law. How did that happen? What's your background and how did you get involved in family law? I think I just had an affinity of meeting people and discussing their problems. And it just so happened that my career gravitated towards a family concentration. And I am actively practicing, even though it's been four decades. And you grew up here in Hawaii? I grew up here in Hawaii, went to school in Los Angeles at Claremont McKenna. For college? For college. And we went, Mark and I attended the University of Puget Sound, now known as Seattle University. Law school. Law school. Okay. Now, just give us a little background about what, you know, before we get into the international aspects, what is family law? Family law is anything and everything that you can imagine that concerns the family unit. The obvious one is divorce, child custody, child support, visitation, property division, allocation of debt. The less obvious ones are paternity or the determination of parenthood and the meeting out of financial obligations that come with it. Custody as well. But there are adoptions. There are guardianships. There are orders of protection and therefore safety of members of the family. Or people in a quasi-family situation. There are juvenile cases. The family court has jurisdiction over juveniles. And there are cases involving abuse and neglect of children. Wow. So it's much broader than I, of course, I've never practiced too much, although you and I have done some cases together where you would come in as my expert. And in the family law, there's a special court here in the United States, at least here in Hawaii. Is it the same throughout the United States? Do we have a special court for family law? In Hawaii, yes, we do. And it has the same jurisdiction as civil courts. However, it is focusing on family issues. And here in Honolulu, we have our court out in the Kapolei area. The family law court. And why did they feel that there's a special need for a family law court? Why can't it just be handled in the regular courts, the civil courts? Well, it's a specialty. And it deals with confidential matters. A lot of the information that is passed through these courts are very personal matters. And therefore, family courts, by and large, are confidential courts. Now, it is not true throughout the United States. And it depends on a state-by-state basis. Some courts have a separate family court and some courts have courts that deal with everything. And it just depends on the state. Okay. And so here in Hawaii, and that's what we're going to talk about here in Hawaii, there is a special family law court. And you mentioned that you got into it and you sort of had an affinity for helping people. Well, you know, that area of law is not a... I mean, it doesn't sound like a happy area of law. But how do you help folks in that area? Well, Mark, on the outset, when you think of issues such as their high stress issues, divorce is one of the highest stress issues that an individual can experience in life. And that being said, it may be very difficult for people to even come to an attorney's office to discuss their personal matters relating to their family. And the concept is that it is a difficult area. It is not a happy area, but to the contrary. Because what you achieve for these people is you obtain for them a significant change in their lives. Their lives, on an individual basis, they may have been stuck in a rut for a long period of time, knowing not what to do and being prodded by friends and relatives as to what they should do and being concerned about the difficulties in making decisions. So I congratulate a client for coming to my office and meeting me, because that is no easy thing to do. So that's a tough step. That's a tough step. And at the end, it is really kind of an achievement to celebrate. Yeah. They get out of a bad situation and can go on with life is what I hear you saying. Yes. Okay, now I want to transition from that background to more of an international flavor. Although I understand most cases involve Hawaii citizens, but a lot of my clients are international clients. In other words, they come from various countries all over the world. They may come to Hawaii to do some business, usually of some sort, and they come with their families. They may leave their country of origin, whatever it is, but they may bring some of these family stresses along with them. And what do you know about generally speaking the foreign countries and do they have family courts like we have here in the United States or Hawaii? Some do and some do not. And it just kind of depends. Here in Hawaii, we see a lot of people. We are experiencing the, if I may say, the globalization of our world. And as a result, yes, we are seeing families from the Orient. Sometimes we see families from Europe or Canada. And I have participated in divorce actions or divorce issues, not only in the Orient, in Canada, and also in Europe. So the same type of problems or internal matters arise everywhere? The same problems, but in different understandings, different cultures. So tell me a little bit about that. What have you noticed with dealing with people that come to you for help and family law from different countries, different cultures? Well, I think that the most obvious one, and I could give the example of Japan and Korea, because I've had experience in dealing with Japanese and as well as Korean clients, they have a concept that is contrary to our concept of divorce. Now here in the United States, we have no-fault divorce. In other words, if one party wants to obtain a divorce, they may do so by going and filing an action in our family courts. And it does not matter if there is an agreement. However, in Asian countries, there is, as a general rule, although there are some exceptions, the requirement that there be an agreement. An agreement as to- As to the divorce itself. So they have to reach an agreement about their divorce. Yes, that would be a nice way to put it. And that is because the fundamental cultures are so different. For instance, in Japan, in Korea, they have a family register system. In other words, families, when they get married, they start their own register of people. And in Japan, this is very odd, to divorce can be very, very easy because all that is necessary is to delete a name from the family register. But to do so, they both have to agree. However, there is, as I understand it, procedures where there is no agreement. And they actually are litigated in the family court. But before they are litigated, Japan and probably Korea requires a lot of mediation. In other words, they are urged to come to an agreement. And is this through the court, or through their council, or both? Both, I see. Yes. And so with respect to those foreigners who are now from outside the United States, and I am not trying to raise an election issue, but a lot of foreigners are coming into the United States doing business here. And what have you noticed? You mentioned the globalization of family law. What does that mean? The globalization may mean, for instance, if families come here, some member of the family may remain in their home country, or children may go to school here, and their parents may be in the foreign country and travel back and forth, which raises some kind of immigration issue. But the globalization meaning, even more so, because we have individuals, high net worth individuals, who go to many, many jurisdictions. They go to the United States. They have homes in Europe. They have homes in all over the United States. Have you noticed, with respect to the practice of law, any lawyers focusing on this type of area? When I started practicing law 40 years ago, there really wasn't that much of that type of thing happening. But it seems like it might be a niche for lawyers to get involved with international practice, or international divorce, or international custody. Have you noticed that happening? Yes. I know that if you look on the Internet, there are law firms that do specialize. International Family Court matters. Now, international family court matters entail, for instance, kidnapping and abduction, the division of property, the assessment of child support, alimony, and the payment of obligations, aside from the fundamental problem of getting divorce. I want to take a little break right now. When we come back, I want to talk about some real-life examples that have crossed your desk without going into details of the confidentiality matters, but just talk a little bit about that. We'll take a little break right now. Aloha, and welcome to the Savichick Show on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm the weekly host at 11 a.m. Honolulu time. For the next six weeks, we have the Aspire series, which is all about the coolest careers I could find, and interviewing and getting insights from these amazing people who want to share it with you and help you live your dreams. Look forward to seeing you on the show. Aloha. Please join us at Think Tech Hawaii. My program is Asia in Review. My next program is on November 17, Thursday 11 a.m. This is Johnson Choi, your host. Hi, I'm Chris Leitham with The Economy and You, and I'd like to invite you each week to come watch my show each Wednesday at 3 p.m. We are talking about international law and globalization of family law on law across the sea, and my guest is Blake Okimoto, your honor, because he's a per diem judge. Thank you for being here. I want to kind of talk. You've been practicing family law for 40 years, and the way you look at it is you're helping people, and I like that idea that attorneys can help people, and now we find that there's more foreigners coming in from outside the United States, outside of Hawaii, and they find themselves in the grips of family problems, family law problems, divorce and custody of children. We've seen a lot of folks from Japan come in, and I think that's become an area of practice where there's been a Japanese marriage, but they come to Hawaii and they get divorced, and now we may see some more from China coming in. What has been some of your experiences? Maybe start with Japan and move on from various countries and the backgrounds, and what's happened from an anecdotal standpoint? He and I, perhaps maybe 10, 15 years ago, had the privilege of representing the same client whose wife resided in Hawaii. The husband resided in Japan, and they had some connection with Greece. Kind of an interesting situation, and we were concerned about jurisdiction and forum shopping because what are the issues that would be considered in any person that is considering embarking upon the changing of their life in this way is which courts are going to give them the best deal. We needed to have all our bases covered, so you had me cover the base in case because the mother or the wife, it was a custody matter as well, had resided and had family in Hawaii, and also the husband had his business and lived in Japan. Ultimately what happened was the divorce occurred in Athens, Greece. I think we had to have sort of an international team of lawyers in Japan, Hawaii and Greece to work it out, and I think it eventually worked out, but it just shows you the breadth. Yes, one of my comments about international family law is that it is necessary to find somebody with experience in this area, somebody who has done it before, and it is also necessary to retain counsel in other jurisdictions who have also had this type of experience. For instance, in the case that we did, we had, I think it was Hashimoto-sensei in Osaka that we worked with, and we also had communications with the Greek attorney. Right. Yeah. Oftentimes people passed through Hawaii and particularly high net worth people may not even be in Hawaii for more than two months, but oftentimes they consider Hawaii as a jurisdiction for which they would consider the divorce because they got married in Hawaii. Can they do that? Is that something that's allowed under the law? Just because we've been here for a short time, can we choose Hawaii as a place to get divorced or do they have to go back to their home country? And by the way, what does Hawaii think about where they got married? Are there any problems with being married in Japan with respect to being divorced in Hawaii? Well, Hawaii recognizes a marriage anywhere it is valid, it is a legal marriage. One of the things that you need to prove is that there was a valid marriage. To get divorced, you have to prove you were married. You were married. Yeah. And that's not always true. And sometimes there is a semblance of marriage, although they've never married, or one party has failed to obtain a divorce from another party. And therefore it's not really a divorce, it becomes an annulment. And there's a huge difference because, although there would be children and child support, there is no division of property. Okay, so let me ask you about this. You have a client that is married in a foreign country, say Japan or Vietnam or China. They come to Hawaii, they have children, they have property, wealthy folks. And they have property in their home country. The children may be here going to school. How does that all sort out? With respect to, first of all, property, because when you get divorced there's a property settlement, or there's some division of property normally here in Hawaii. And then with respect to children, how are the children treated, and what are some of the problems that arise, and what are some of the solutions? That is a great question, Mark. Let me just break it up in some subparts. First of all, a Hawaii court needs to have jurisdiction. And that is the party, one party, whose filing needs to have resided in the state of Hawaii for more than six months prior to the filing of the complaint for divorce. And for more than three months in the city and county, or the county of which the divorce action is filed. If those requirements are met, then they can get a divorce in a... Well, one party can obtain a divorce. Now, there are stages of divorce. It could be if the other spouse has never been to Hawaii, then we have problems in dividing property. You can get a divorce, and you call it an exparte divorce. The divorce itself can be granted. However, the court may reserve, or probably will reserve, all other issues to a court of competent jurisdiction because the other side has no connection to the state of Hawaii. It's sort of like an international shoe type of situation. You have to have jurisdiction. You have to have... And so you may have to go back to the home country to deal with the property. And oftentimes we're dealing with real property in other jurisdictions. The question is, Hawaii courts can deal with the division of property if both parties have submitted to the personal jurisdiction of the state of Hawaii. However, in some occasions where a title is in dispute, not that there is no dispute that they own this property, but title is in dispute, then my experience has been is that the Hawaii courts will defer jurisdiction to a court in which the property is presented. So really, we have some jurisdiction here in Hawaii, and we may have to do more with respect to other issues in the home country. That may come up. And so it's kind of a piecemeal process is what I see. And there is a potential that you can get divorced here in Hawaii, maybe even deal with some of the other issues, such as property and if everybody agrees. If not, you may have to go back to the home country. Same thing with children. Children may be an issue that comes up, and it may depend where the children are. Is that right? It may depend where the children are and whether or not another court has taken jurisdiction over that issue. We have the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act here, and it requires that the child, as a general rule, be a resident of the state for at least six months unless there are absent extraordinary issues such as abuse. And I was involved as a consultant in a case involving a client in Maui in which this was that issue. However, a court in Germany had rendered a decision as to custody. So the issue was whether or not the German courts had followed the same rules and procedures, or similar rules and procedures as the Hawaii court. And we're going to have to end pretty soon on that. But before we do, this is not the first time that we've sat down together and talked and prepared. There's a photo there of us studying for the bar exam over 40 years ago. Oh, yes. Oh, thank you very much. We've changed a little bit. A little. Not much, but I just wanted to share that. We've talked story for at least 40 years. Oh, yes. And so it's good to have you back here talking story again. Thank you very much. Well, thank you for having me.