 Hi, so did you all know that there's a type of therapy that uses technology to train the brain to function more efficiently? I was so amazed by this, especially learning that there's evidence behind using this sort of therapy, neurofeedback for things like PTSD and other psychiatric and neurological conditions. And that's our topic for today's Ask an Expert series. The Ask an Expert series is a video series podcast where we talk about mental health topics with experts. So think of people who have lived expertise or people who have clinical experiences just doing really amazing things. I'm your host, Monica, and I'm a medical student and neuroscience graduate who is really passionate about all things like psychiatry and neurology. And so to this end, I'm really, really excited to be able to chat with you today and introduce you all to Dr. Hill. Before I do so, I'd like to invite you to leave your thoughts and comments in the chat box or in the comment section down below about what you'd like to see. And if you'd like to be involved, whether as an interviewee or as someone who helps with these interview series, then please leave me a message in the comment box below or send me an email. So to begin, I would just like to introduce you all to Dr. Hill. Hello. Hi, Monica. How are you today? I'm so excited to be able to get a chat with you. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Of course. I'd like to just start by asking you to introduce yourself and telling the audience a bit more about what you do and some of your background work. Sure. So my name is Andrew Hill. I'm a PhD scientist with a degree in cognitive neuroscience, which is the sort of mind-brain overlap. And unlike most people that get PhDs in neuroscience, I went into an applied area. So I basically teach people how to use advanced neuroscience tools to do things with themselves. So it's a little bit of an applied or functional neuroscience space in some way. And the tool that I primarily use is something called neurofeedback or brain training. And alongside that, we use something called brain mapping or quantitative EEG to understand the brain. But this is sort of where I'm at now. I've gone through an arc of working with children with developmental issues all the way through elders. I taught gerontology at UCLA for about 12 years. So peak brain age in the neuroscience of aging. And I have this life course perspective on how we may want to take control of our brains, things that happened when we were young, middle age, older, and then there's both suffering and performance stuff that can be gone after essentially when you do this level of work and gradually the biggest differentiator for both me as a neuroscientist and also my company, which is peak brain, is that we really operate like personal trainers for your brain instead of therapists or doctors. So this is a therapeutic intervention used by psychologists, as you were mentioning in the intro for trauma, quite a lot actually, is a deep, rich history of tools in neurofeedback for trauma work. But you can work on all kinds of things with all kinds of perspectives. And if you know how your brain works, it can start to reframe the relationship of your suffering from something that is happening to you and something you're a little frustrated about because it's like some phenomena in your body. So I basically operate like a scientist and coach and trainer for people's brains and teach you how to understand your brain and then move into a coaching role as we teach people how to change their brain activity to shape resources they're interested in taking control over. That sounds amazing. I just heard you like to do a couple of terms out there, EEG, neurofeedback, for those who are completely new to this, what would you kind of tell them? Like what is this? Like what is EEG? What is neurofeedback? Just starting from the basics. Sure. Yeah. So EEG is electricity your brain is making basically. The brain's full of neurons, just like the heart is full of neurons and rhythmic patterns create information. So the heart has this coherent pattern you've all seen on like Gray's Anatomy, the EKG. It's a very characteristic single almost shape as different circuits come together to create a heartbeat that cycles around. The brain uses very similar neurons, but instead of coordinating in coherent ways, they actually have this chaotic individual little module thing going on where they send information out to other modules. So you've got billions of little, they're called mini columns or micro columns in the brain and they're little clusters, little columns of about 30,000 neurons and about 100,000 glial cells, the support structures and informational secondary cells. And this little computational unit is basically a CPU in the brain. And you've got millions and millions and millions of these things. And some of them will operate in a part of the brain with specific jobs. And some of them will operate in part of the brain where they'll integrate to other areas of the brain. And some will operate where they assemble a network and make some friends briefly and then let go and do other things the next minute. And so all of these little modules, all these little activation modes that these little engines can go into can be seen through looking at the sort of electrical firing rate. These 30,000 cells will all fire at once in a pattern. They'll dance together. And that dance can come from below once per second, all the way up to several hundred times per second. And that's the information and coding happening in that bit of tissue. And a group of those little columns will actually make lots of different brain waves to tune the activity of that little machine that's being created in that part of the brain, be it a permanent, if you will, machine or a temporary one. So we have real slow brain waves called things like Delta. Delta is the heartbeat of the brain. Keeps your heart and lungs moving. It's what slow wave sleep, you know, dreamless sleep is made out of. But you're also using it a lot when you're awake in the background, if you will, you shouldn't feel it. You kind of live in it. You don't think of it. And then you have Theta. So Delta is about once or twice per second, little slow waves. And then Theta is more like four times per second. And Theta is the lubrication in the brain. It releases the tissue to do its job. So if you don't have enough of it, the tissue gets stuck. You got too much of it in your squirrel, if it's a tension tissue, anyways, you can have for trauma stuff, for anxiety, there's circuits in the brain. His job it is to evaluate the environment, the side which you're thinking about, look for threat, pull up thoughts and memories and context, you know, almost all forms of anxiety, even ones that are extremely in the way like trauma response stuff and PTSD and developmental trauma. They're not really disease processes, the way we think about that in a medical context, they're much closer to like cramped up resources, natural things that are doing their job, but stuck in one mode of regulation. So I think about trauma a lot, you know, from looking at the brain maps, yes, mechanically, mechanistically, Alpha, Beta, Theta, Delta, these different brain waves, Beta, by the way, is an activated gas pedal brainwave and Alpha is the neutral brainwave for the rest of our discussion today. So, but I think about these modules a little bit, how they're tuned or how they're running for you. And you can sort of conceptualize different aspects of yourself, like you might look at other aspects of your body, because your bone density or your lipid panel, you can learn something, you know, triglycerides are high, better back off in the bed in Jerry's for a couple of months, and you do, and you have better triglycerides, and you take control of it, and you're not out of control of your, you know, cholesterol phenomena, whatever it is. And the same can be true of trauma stuff. There's a, there's a circuit on the back middle of the brain called the posterior cingulate. And its job is largely to do things like, watch the road, heads up. Okay, there we go. And orient you and alert you to the outside world. And we're doing it, we're using it all day long, all the time, to orient to the outside world. Generally, the back of the head is the outside world. The front of the head is the inside world. We have these things called cingulates that switch the attention around internally or externally from the front and back. And when the posterior cingulate cramps up, we start evaluating the environment for danger or for threat or for the possibility of things going wrong. And this is kind of like, you know, your lower back might cramp up and spasm in a car accident so you can walk away. Your posterior might spasm up and look for the danger so you don't miss it again, because it's an adaptation to the acuteness, if you will, of the strain. Your brain learns suddenly the world is not especially safe or predictable. And then it over activates that resource very much like having a strong muscle that's gotten spasmed because of how activated it got. So if I looked at your brain, I would see different brain wave patterns hanging out like fingerprints, sort of resource signatures. And you can see the posterior and anterior cingulate as big giant blobs of brain wave sometimes because they're really, they're called the rich club, rich hub tissues. We have several chunks of tissue in the brain that will integrate lots of other parts of the brain. One group of those circuits is called the default mode network, which is the sort of referential self musing awareness kind of stuff and a little racetrack of consciousness as it zips around and it zips through the cingulates. And you know, how these things are activating, if they're making lots of alpha, then you're not as activated in the cingulates. And if you're making lots and lots of beta, the one on the back, you're caught in your gut and you're ruminating. One in the front, you're caught in your head and you're perseverating. So often with trauma response, you see the obsessiveness in the front and the threat since tipping the back and the person's brain is sort of playing ping pong with stuff that bothers them. Did you hear? I heard you to worry. Did you worry to hear? And you can't sort of let that settle back down even though you cognitively know that you don't need to be activated the way you are. Your brain has moved into the mode. It learned it better darn well do for safety reasons. But humans are, you know, creative and intelligent and we can catastrophize and think of what could go wrong. You know, so that's unfortunately that adaptation can then go other places and it's, you know, complex. So anyways, those are brain waves, things we can see through the head, you know, from the outside as activation signatures of different parts of the brain. And then we're able to just to add on like we're able to modulate it. And because sometimes as you were mentioning, it could be a bit over activated or under activated, probably contributing to some sort of distress that people might be feeling. And I suppose that neurofeedback would allow us to better modulate that and to tune it kind of like fine tune it. Is that my understanding? Correct? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Briefly tune it and get a subjective experience and validate what you think is going on. Because just to back up for a second, when we look at your brain waves, the way we sort of interpret what's going on is not, Oh my gosh, you're unusual. Something's wrong. Because guess what? People are weird. They are like, we're not expecting you to be average, but yet we have to look at your brain compared to something. So we use an age match sample and say, aha, here's a bunch of ways in which you're different than average. You got extra break beta waves over here and theta waves over there and alpha waves over here. And that's a true statement, but that doesn't have like construct or psychological validity has sort of just basic data validity. So I would have to say to somebody, Hey, you've got a lot of beta on the back midline. Are you a little threat sensitive? Do you ruminate? Are you activated that way? If they were like, Oh gosh, yes, I that's that's true. Okay, now we're in the realm of plausible for you. That's cool. So now we can decide is that important to work on? Oh, it is. All right, let's exercise down that extra beta, perhaps, bring up the alpha briefly and see how it feels. And for that particular resource, pretty reliable. So most of the time someone would go, Oh, yeah, I thought really good. Let's do more of that. But here's here's how it actually works. Here's how we change your brain. Here's how we mess with your head. In the case of the singlets, be it PTSD phenomena or OCD in the front or ticks or all singulate driven phenomena. So if you bite your nails or have Tourette's or have intrusive thoughts, they're often the singlets are heavily involved again, as these natural circuits that cramp up pretty easily. So you often would stick wires on one or both of those above the scalp just, you know, stuck on the head very briefly, and then an ear clip or two and measure in real time the amount of activity coming out of the singlets, maybe the amount of beta waves moment to moment that beta is going to fluctuate and change on its own. And you're also going to make some alpha some neutral resting brain wave that's between the activation tone moment to moment as well. So the computer watches your brain. And whenever you happen to make less beta and more alpha for half a second, the computer goes, Oh, good job. It makes a game on the screen start to move. So little puzzle pieces start to fill in or a pack may need some dots or your car drives faster. The brain says, Hey, stuff is happening. I kind of like stuff. What's that stuff? Nice. And then a couple seconds later, the beta comes back up and the alpha dips. The brain, the computer sees that and the car slows down or the or the puzzle pieces stall. The brain says, Hey, where's my stuff? I like I like stuff more than no stuff. I'm having no stuff. Huh. And a couple seconds later, it happens to move in the right direction again. And the game resumes. So the big trick here is we move the goalpost every 30 seconds or so. We adjust what we're asking for. So as a medical, as a doctor to be in a neuroscience student, you've already picked up on the fact that this is operant conditioning. Basically. So for folks that are psych students, there's, you know, or folks that aren't, we've all heard of Pavlov's dog drooling from a bell. That's not what this is. That's all learning is basically what's called a associative learning. We tie things together, but in Pavlovian conditioning, you take things that aren't normally associated and tied them together. This is Scinarian conditioning or operant conditioning where you take stuff that already exists and you shape it in a certain direction. You're already making brain waves. So if you put a little measurement sort of criteria in the computer right next to what you're doing and then watch it when it fluctuates on its own in a certain direction, applaud that the brain goes, well, that's interesting. Okay. And this is no different than basic learning. When you're a little baby flopping around and you managed to a little baby push up and you can see 15 feet and you're like, whoa, information. That's so cool. The next day, you're like, let me see some more and you just push yourself back up and you can see again, you weren't thinking, wait, left bicep, right, right bicep. You just learned the association, you know, of information flow with the activation of those particular neurons. And with some trial and error, you learn to crawl or walk or whatever. And in this case, because we're dragging the criteria around gently, the brain will start to reach in this case, let's say for more alpha and somewhere around two or three or four sessions in to your first neurofeedback experience is when you feel something not usually right away. It can happen, but it's a little more rare. So usually a few sessions in after the session, the brain's like, oh, wait a minute, alpha is producing information. Okay, I want some more alpha. And it jacks the alpha up in the posterior cingulate for a couple hours. And you're like, Oh, I felt kind of chill. That was really, really strange. Huh. Nah, maybe I didn't feel it. Okay, try it again. And if we're in the ballpark of reality, you feel it again, and it's stronger. So you have this relationship with your brain becomes iterative and gentle. And you can test stuff, you see how anxiety stuff feels or executive function things, and you can get reliable changes on anxiety features, executive function features, sleep, speed of processing, brain fog. So the gross stuff that is that all human brains do, especially when that cramps up hard, like all humans have anxiety, but when those resources are cramped, now we have dysregulated, you know, diagnosed, if you will, levels of anxiety, but the resources are not atypical. They're just not regulated real law right now. So that's the stuff that we have the most visibility over in those population metrics, the QEG or brain mapping, and have the most reliable ability to change using neurofeedback. So we train the brain for half an hour, about three times a week, starting about a week and a half in, you're like, Oh, wait a minute, huh. And then we're having your report to us, what you're noticing. And we adjust your workouts. And we have people map their brain about every other month. And for things like features of anxiety or ADHD or stuff like that, we can get about a full standard deviation on the bell curve every other month. So when I work with acute PTSD, for instance, with veterans, six weeks in, they're like, Doc, I'm feeling awesome. Am I done? I'm like, well, you know, because these are often tough people, right? So they're ready to go on with the next step of their lives. But in six weeks, you can usually pull the teeth of classic intrusive, you know, PTSD, complex PTSD, developmental, slow moving relational stuff, attachment stuff, little slower. And there I would want to do like, regulatory resilient stuff on sleep stress and attention. And then you can dig down to the subcortical structures by tapping the ones that are cortical. For instance, a lot of developmental trauma might be driven by is a structure is kind of beneath or maybe in front of in the chain of information. The posterior cingulate called the peri aqueductal gray. And when I was first in school, all we were taught about the PAG is that it dumps painkillers into the central canal. When you do things like slam your thumb with a hammer, turns out the PAG is very sensitive to emotional pain too. So if you're exposed to high levels of stress when you're very young, the PAG develops this sensitization for the possibility of pain occurring in the future. So it's not the trauma response itself. It's sort of like the voice in your head that's been yelling at you for 30 years about the trauma you missed when you were younger into the sort of pre alert, almost not the alert. But the PAG is not cortical subcortical in some ways, you can't see it in an EEG, you wouldn't know it's having trouble. You'd see other stuff, sleep issues in general anxiety, you can see, you can see sensory integration issues, you can see social cueing and social overwhelm stuff sometimes, a big circuit behind the right ear called the tempo parietal junction. Cengulates, but these are all things that I would walk through with someone and say, Hey, is this you? Does this matter? Like I teach them to read brain maps and they teach me what's important in the maps while we go through data essentially. And after that, we have to work out a plan starting to form. Yeah, that's so interesting. I never thought of it sort of like operant conditioning, but on an electrical cellular level. So an involuntary behavior basically, your brain waves the most neurofeedback is involuntary. You're like, this can't be working. Yeah. And then three sessions and you're like, Oh, wait a minute. Huh. Okay. And then every session feels like something different as you change gears. So then it's kind of fun to push your brain. Okay. So essentially, it's like, yeah, it's brain training. So it's kind of operant conditioning to modify the different kind of electrical signals that we might be getting that might be associated with the resting tone, the tendencies of the circuits to activate or relax or, you know, for ADHD, the real common ones on the right hand side, there's a circuit involved with sleep maintenance and with knowing if you're paying attention and it uses a low frequency beta that we discovered neurofeedback around this frequency called SMR neurofeedback as practice clinically is was discovered in the mid sixties on cats. And the frequency that was being manipulated kind of by mistake in some ways that we discovered is a frequency cats make tons of if you've seen a cat lying on a windowsill that still body and laser like focus humans use that too to sit still, to not be reactive, to stay asleep, to not have seizures. So literally the com cat in the windowsill is the opposite of ADHD, like, like literally, it's the same brain wave state higher versus low. And SMR or this low beta wave relative to the theta, the lubrication in the brain is involved with dis inhibition. If you have too much theta and not enough of this low power beta, things are dis inhibited. And that can happen on the motor strip left to right and produce executive function, sleep, other kind of broad stuff. When it happens front to back on the singlets, the high theta, you don't get like in like a classic anxiety, you know, very hot kind of experience internally, you get a disinhibited experience internally. So you can get people with diagnoses, if you will, or complaints that are PTSD like, you look at their brain, they have a giant blob of theta on the front midline the interior singulate. And that's somebody who has songs playing in their head all day long, or they bite their nails aggressively. Or they have, you can sometimes see the interior singulate and then the spot behind the right ear, which is the tempo parietal junction for drinking the world and when those are both hot, people will have environmentally or people focused anxiety triggers, things like misophonia, where people sound chewing will drive you nuts or agoraphobia or claustrophobia can be can be very similar circuits. So when somebody walks in kind of the point of this tour through different anxiety flavors in the brain, is when someone walks in the diagnostic label, I care much less about the diagnostic label than I do about which resources are operating which ways for you. Can you understand them? Does it make sense? Is there some set of resources that you would like to change? And often, I mean often when I look at someone's brain has a particular diagnostic label, the picture of what they're experiencing is much more nuanced. Someone comes in with tons of anxiety complaints and diagnostic goals and they have a bunch of brain fog and sleep issues showing up that are related. Or someone comes in with an ADHD response, a diagnosis and goals run executive function and you look at their brain and they're like traumatized like dramatically and not sleeping. And that's why they're not doing their homework or paying attention in schools because they're burnt out during the day falling asleep and having sleep anxiety at night or something. But a psychologist sat there in the school classroom and went, are you having trouble paying attention? And the kid went, huh? Because they were half out of it. Oh, yeah, checkmark ADHD. So the point here is not to reinforce any diagnoses. You may be having trauma responses or anxiety phenomena, but anxiety is a natural phenomena when it's appropriate and then you want to be able to put it down again. You know, the front midline when it's super hot can be OCD or it can be a CEO who's hyper focused. The back midline can be a threat sensitivity and your mind's looking for the danger all the time. Or you're an effective lifeguard or a mom with like too much chaos going on is catching stuff and keeping little, you know, frantic kids safe. We have resources that tend to get overused, overactivated, but they're not unnatural resources. In fact, if you're having a trauma response, having like a strong visceral threat, anxiety response, it's a powerful part of your brain. It's doing its job kind of too well. It's kind of a big, big strong muscle. If I show it to you on your brain, on your brain mapping, it changes your relationship with it. Suddenly you're like, Oh, wait a minute. Oh, yeah, I am ruminating. I am threat sensitive. Okay. Oh, my brain. That's so annoying. But you suddenly stop being like guilty or ashamed or feeling overwhelmed or as overwhelmed when you can make it mechanical or operational a little bit, just like your lipid panel, you know, 50 years ago and no one did lipid panels. And what we didn't have tons of sugar in this country anyways, but we didn't have the agency. There's no gym on the corner to go like burn off the body fat risks and things. But this is just that next evolution where you should have, I feel you should have some agency. And a lot of what we consider psych stuff, I feel we are, but we should be our own experts. We can be our own experts. We shouldn't rely necessarily on yet another treatment provider to be right for us, to give us the right label, to give us the right intervention. That's wonderful if they're right, but the brain's imperfect and people aren't their labels and are their diagnoses and aren't don't fit in the buckets. So a lot of people get imperfect treatment for things that are pretty acute because of the narrowness of that label. And those tools, those labels were developed for insurance companies, not for individuals and not for doctors. So they don't often fit the person's experience super well. And showing you what your brain's actually doing, I find to be more useful than giving it a name, you know, giving it a certain scary word or two. There's my soapbox. No, that's amazing. I just have so many questions because like, I've never heard of this. Like it's my first time, I mean, I've gone through undergrad, I've gone through grad school. Surprisingly, I mean, neuro for feedback isn't like that new. And I, it's my first time really learning about it. Yeah. So I'm just really, yeah, really amazed. And I've just been wondering, because I mean, it's very, very true that I think people should take charge of their own wellness and look at a modality, many different modalities in terms of like what works for them. So for people who are coming in to get brain scans, to what extent do they also do other sort of things like CBT, or is it primarily just doing neurofeedback? What is the typical presentation of your clients? I would say about half and half people who are not doing other things and people who are. And in trauma and anxiety context, people often either have a therapy support system that they're working with, DBT, CBT, a lot of family systems theory work, which a lot of my trauma clients love, a lot of somatic experiencing. If there's attachment trauma, early life trauma, DBT becomes sort of like a high priority for folks, I would say. But I also get folks that have been dealing with their anxiety and trauma for 10, 15, 20 years, that are experts in it, that have gone through all kinds of interventions, that have tried all kinds of stuff, and they're kind of really savvy at managing the activation, managing the dysregulation when it happens. And they're done with meds or therapy and they've tried everything and nothing works. I get a lot of people like that actually. And so, you know, I'm here to be part of the team and I don't want to replace a therapist. And if people ask me about that combination, I sort of paint a picture of the neurofeedback coaches as the coach in the gym, the strength and conditioning coach helping you build the resource. And your therapist like the coach in the field helping you realize you've dropped your elbow when you're releasing or something. So it's a resource versus skill thing. And skills are voluntary and effortful and nuanced and you develop them. That's true of stress response stuff. But you can pull the teeth of being triggered by it with the resource manipulation with neurofeedback. So we don't do therapy directly, but I work with an awful lot of therapists as you might imagine. But we do mindfulness training as our piece of it is train the brain, train the mind. And many people do other interventions. And we're also sort of in that biohacker wellness space. So a lot of my clients do additional things, macronutrient, partitioning and cycling to create hermetic stressors and anti-aging effects, high level interventions like hyperbaric medicine or red light therapy, peptides, neutropics, all kinds of biohacking being done. And we sort of often operate like a best practices, you know, check a sounding board. Oh, yeah, that thing you asked about, that's totally bunk. Don't don't do that. Well, that thing, yeah, we like keto, but here's how we suggest to do it, not the way the gurus are saying, for instance. So we try to give people that sense of agency and teach them the neuro they need to know. And then we provide ongoing support. So not only the neurofeedback, which is one of our heavy lifters, if you will, but all of our offices, we have four offices in the US, they all provide whenever you do a brain map with us, you get a membership that's a year long, so maps are free for a year. And in the US, maps usually are grander more and ours are much, much less. In fact, all your listeners can get a discount if they want to our offices, it's normally 500 bucks a year for our membership, but it's 250 for your listeners or your viewers if those of you on YouTube right now are Facebook watching us. That gets you the ability to map your brain and learn about it and look at it and maybe gonna map your brain on caffeine or cannabis or Adderall or Xanax or whatever it is. You can learn how your brain works, these gross features of stress, sleep, attention. And since the mapping is free and the tools are there and the coaches are super excited to help you map your brain, it starts becoming this relationship with your brain that changes gradually and progressively over time. Even if you don't do neurofeedback, if you see how your meds are changing your brain or your new meditation practice or your new sleep hacking or whatever it is, or you can look at your brain and realize how bad your alcohol habit might be or how visible your trauma is. As I was saying earlier, it can be very freeing when you see it as a part of your brain instead of something that's just happening to you. Anyways, we would want to teach everyone their perspective, the perspective taking sort of exercise of looking at their brain. I'm not that surprised you haven't heard about it, even though you're a neuroscience student and you're now a med student, it's rarely taught in med school. And when I was applying to grad school in the early 2000s, I had to be careful using the word biofeedback or neurofeedback or admissions committees ruled their eyes, obviously. It's one of those fringy things 20 years ago now. But I went to grad school UCLA, arguably one of the better psych institutions in the world. And about halfway into my PhD program, I noticed this sea change and all the senior scientists and all the big names are like, hey, you're doing neurofeedback research. That's pretty cool. You want to use one of my tools when you're testing? And there was this like sudden interest in about a decade ago. And I think that the availability of this stuff, the tools come down in cost, the access is coming up. For us, the pandemic accelerated remote work. So we have everything we do available virtually as well. Although the really good membership is only available in the offices for that free ongoing access, we can't send data out unlimited or equipment out unlimited for free for you, unfortunately. But we would like to generally to solve that thing you just described, which is, whoa, I've never heard about this. I can't tell you, I've seen seven, 8,000 clients in the past decade or more. And I cannot tell you the number of times, the number of hundreds of times that somebody gets two or three weeks in four weeks in and has had some interesting experiences, changes in sleep, changes in stress response, changes in seizures or migraines or whatever. And then they say to me, why, why isn't everyone else doing this? Like, I hear that so often. Why, why didn't I know about this? And I thought that way. I trained my brain for the first time at age 28. And I was like, Oh, okay, I can go back to grad school now, because I now got control over my executive function stuff. But why was no one teaching me about this stuff 30 years ago, whatever it was. So it's a bit, it's a nice tool to have some control over your, over your brain, even if it's imperfect, even if it's sort of iterative and progressive instead of a simple solution. Yeah, for sure. Like, I'm a huge proponent to giving people choice to have resources to really take charge of their health, especially evidence based choices. So hopefully everyone here today learned a bit about neurofeedback. I certainly did. And yeah, just getting to invest in yourself really to, you know, learn about yourself from the introspective perspective from the electrical brain perspective, really anything, just being able to explore and see what works or what doesn't work. Because then either way, you know. So I think it's a really cool thing. And yeah, thank you very much. Oh, of course, my pleasure. Before we end this, I just really wanted to spend a few moments just really highly to everyone where people can find you. So you mentioned that you have different offices. Yes, we had different offices, physical offices in New York City, in Los Angeles, in St. Louis. So, you know, both coasts and kind of in the middle for you. The folks in Colorado are cursing my name right now because there's nothing in the mountain, sorry. But we also do our whole program. So neurofeedback is usually a few months long. We send out the gear out, we work with you and it's really involved. It's somewhat involved. So if you want to do a whole program with us, you don't need to be near an office. We do everything pretty much equivalent in and out of our offices. But if you want to map your brain and get access to sort of like the biohacker special and have this tool, then you'd have to come into LA, St. Louis, New York City, or Orange County, California. And we'll probably have a few overseas. We have some other partners we work with overseas too soon that'll become other peak brain offices. But that piece of it, normally our membership in the office is 500 bucks a year. Again, we'll give for the folks who are watching a half price membership. So that's 250 if you want to see what your brain looks like. And you can use the same discount if you wanted to do a neurofeedback program. Those are a few thousand dollars. But if you want to apply the same 250 off, you can do that for one of the laundry programs. And then just check us out in the socials. Most of our socials are peak brain LA because that was our first office. And I'm also at like Andrew Hill PhD, but that's mostly like cooking. So if you want to watch me cook, go for it. But peak brain LA is where all of our health and wellness, our biohacking advice, we have giveaways, we have a little campaign throughout the year that we do for health and wellness challenges. So yeah, join our join our socials and bug us and tell us what you're interested in for brain stuff. And we'll, you know, see what we can do. Thank you so much. Yeah, to anyone visiting there mentioned, I guess you want just like to go video and then you got to take advantage of the great discount. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Thank you so much for teaching me teaching everyone about neurofeedback, telling us about really how it works, what we can expect out of it and letting us know where to find you. And with that, thank you everyone for watching. If you have any other thoughts or comments or if you'd like to be involved again, get in contact at monica, it's like to go.net. And yeah, until then, see you in the next live stream. Bye. Thank you.