 Welcome to the After Hours podcast, hosted by Harry Haas and James Friedlender, presented by My Investing Club. What's going on guys? We're back with another episode of the After Hours podcast. Today, we have Chris, who is a long-time MIC member. So Chris, thank you for coming on, man. This has been a long time coming, I feel like. Yeah, I appreciate it. It's been quite a while over a year since I joined. Yeah. Been away. COVID makes my timetables all like screwed up. Like I feel like all the members here, like I've known them for like three, five years or something like that, but it's really only been like a year plus. Bizarre. Should I spend so much time here? Yeah, time has stood still. I know, it's not getting any better, but so we'll start off like traditional fashion. So how did you get into trading? How did you find MIC? Kind of give us a little insight into your journey. OK, well, long story, I'll try to cut it down significantly, but was in college, I guess I'm around about age. So yeah, was in college late 90s. And, you know, I worked on a couple. I worked on a yacht and a friend of mine was a broker. That one that owned the boat was a broker. And he just talked about, you know, the money and all that stuff. And that's what perks your ears up. And then I was in college in Charleston, South Carolina. And I had a friend whose father was a commentator on CBS News about the markets and, you know, talked about it. And then fast forward, I had a degree in accounting and was like, all right, I want to go for the big money. So applied to a number of jobs, a number of firms. And it was funny, I actually got a job at that guy's firm. And then got laid off in the tech crash in 2000, I believe. And then got a job as a clerk on the American Stock Exchange in 2001, April of 2001. And if you watch Wall Street Warriors, the first couple of episodes, that guy that works on the Amix, you could see my former booth over his shoulder. Oh, that's cool. That's really cool. So I was, I was, I say trading options, but I was just executing options. You know, we would find, have a buyer, try to find a seller, et cetera. Yeah. And that was 2001. And that American Stock Exchange is three blocks from the World Trade Center. And I would, every day I would leave, we had a queue in the triple queue pit. We had a booth and I would just leave from the door, from the back door of the Amix, which is on Greenwich Street every day. And normally I would turn right to go to the Trade Center to go home. But on that morning, I called my parents and I'm like, all right, I'm going to leave. They closed the exchange. And that was at 10 o'clock. And I turned left instead of right. And that's when the building started to come down. So had a run from my life. And I hid in number two, Rector Street. If you look on a Google map, you'll see Rector Street and ran in that building because a guy was behind me screaming at the top of his lungs to get in a building, get in a building and that's what I did. But I don't want to get into that because I don't want to end up crying, full-body crying on the floor. Jesus, dude, that is a story and a half. Yeah. It was obviously 2001, so we're talking 20 years ago. That's crazy. Yeah, basically, yeah. It seems like yesterday, but seems 20 years ago seems so long, far away. Yeah. Now did you, when all that happened, I don't want to dwell on it, but all that happened to you. Did you kind of think like, I need to do something else in my life? Like I know obviously it had nothing to do with like markets and stuff, but were you just kind of like all freaked out? Like I got to fucking do anything else and like be away from this? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. It's a total reevaluation of your life. We were off for three weeks because the building had structural damage. You know, all the telephone lines are screwed up. I went back October one and there was a fine sheen of dust all over everything. So weird. I had sinus headaches every day for months just cause, yeah, just all the dust and the smell was horrible. The layers of dust or concrete in the windowsills was probably a foot high. That's great. So they closed the market for more than a, it was one day, they closed it, right? I think it was two or three because that was the first time the market was closed four days in a row. Oh wow. With weekends, but I think they closed it Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or something like that, but. Yeah, geez. So reevaluated and every day you had to show your ID just to get down the sidewalk to get, cause we were in ground zero and that was just stressful every day. Am I going to blow up in a subway tunnel or whatever, you know, that's the failure. So I quit and then I became a high school guidance counselor and you know, you don't make a whole lot of money. I wasn't looking to maybe be a millionaire but you just want to help people and I guess that's the educator at heart. Yeah, my mom does well right now. Yeah, it's, so I was a typical buy and hold investor and you know, just didn't trade, didn't scalp, didn't do anything. So I worked for four years in the United States as a counselor and then I got a great opportunity to be a counselor in Japan at an international school. And that's what I did for, I did three years in Japan and then three years in Shanghai and loved it, achieved so many dreams and then did things I never dreamed I'd ever do but still kind of was paying off debt mostly cause you get into education and it costs money. So it sucked to be able to have to do that. But it was great. Did you still have the itch? Did you still have like the desire to like be involved in the markets or was that kind of like on the back burner? No, I still had a little desire. I remember, you know, you hear about Bao's Fannie Mae trade but I had a Fannie Mae trade of my own. I bought it, I remember when I was interning I told the kid to short Fannie Mae at 70 bucks in 2004. Oh geez. And I was like, they were playing that stock market game in the class and I was the guest speaker most days and I just was like, why the hell didn't I put that trade on on my own? But you know, whatever. And then I put it stock crashed to 35 cents or something like that. And I bought it at 35 cents and then sold off at, I don't know, a couple bucks. So yeah, but that's kind of like, I wasn't in it at all. So fast forward to 2015 and I got burnt in Asia, you know, being a counselor and, you know the parents are hardcore. So I got, I got burned out. They go a hundred miles an hour in China and I always had a desire to work on boats. So went back to school for a graduate degree and a Coast Guard license to work on boats. But while I was doing that, I just was like, all right, I'll just trade options. I did it before and I'll do it again just to make extra money. And that was a bad, you know, move. So, you know, I got chopped up and timed to Cade and you know, I made great money in the COVID crash. Cause I was, you know, buying puts on the market. I was, this market's gonna crash eventually and I've thought so since 2016, but until that happens, you're gonna be wrong on your options plays. But, so yeah, I got chopped up but then I made great money in the COVID crash. But, you know, overall, I probably lost money trading those options. And 2019, I was working in Florida and I came across, you know, in my Seon Instagram, I guess. And I'm like, I'm very, you know, education, I'm an educator at heart and I love helping people, but I also, my dad was a detective. So I have that kind of scammy detector and you know, you follow it and you're like, all right, we'll see what this guy says. And okay, you're lured in by obviously the PNLs and that's great. And you just wanna be sure that you're not gonna get, oh, here's a $4,000 course that you're gonna buy and it's gonna be basically, you know, here's how to buy a stock and here's how to sell a stock. So, you know, but you watch it and you see it. And then I tested the waters and I joined monthly in what, in June, 2020. But then I was under PDT in that account because, you know, you have separate accounts and I'm, yeah, in my investing. And I went to Vietnam during COVID, I was like, I'm not getting on a boat, that's crazy. Because they're holding people on boats for months and months at a time and I'm like, no way. Yeah. So I had a friend say, hey, this school in Vietnam is looking for a counselor emergency, you know, posting. I was like, all right, I'll take it. I don't care. I've done dumber things in the past. So it was great. I was up at 9.30 at night playing the markets or just watching at least at night. But I was still under PDT. So I was really restricted and that just killed me. And so now I came home from Vietnam, I wasn't going to go back because cases spiked astronomically over the summer. You know, the government had the military blocking bridges, shut down all restaurants and deliveries. And I was like, I am not going back there. If I need to get home, I will not be able to get home. So, came back and got on a boat and that's what I do now. I work on a dry bulk cargo ship in the Great Lakes. So we move, you know, coal, iron ore, gravel, sand, concrete, rocks, things like that. And it pays well. And so that's getting me over PDT, but now I have two and a half months off because of ice and winter. And I work a month on month off schedule. So when I'm working off, so here we are. So where's your trading at now? Like, so I guess now that you've been in MIC for like around a year, you said, and what are you, what are you doing now? What are kind of strategies? Are you looking at your selling options? Are you shorting by anything like that? Kind of give us that rundown. In the trade zero account, I am not doing options at all. I'm doing small options plays in my other account, like I'm shorting arc with puts and that's working out nicely because tech is going to lead this crash. But yeah, I'm a short bias trader. So James, I love your videos because they're nice and short and sweet. And I think I'm just, you know, how they give that iceberg analogy where they only see 10% of the iceberg above the waterline and then the 90%. I think I'm right near the waterline because I'm just like yesterday, NXTD and Bau mentioned it. And I'm like, oh, I should short it pre-market at, was it 712 and I didn't take it because I'm trying to follow the rules of starting small. And, you know, it's really just, you know, I'm just like anybody else of starting this scalping and you, you know, not everything's is going to go to zero that you're short. So I learned that. Yeah. So it's more along the lines of like, I got to follow what you guys tell me. And, you know, there's this notion that like just because I'm older doesn't mean I shouldn't follow the younger guys' rules and that have done this much longer to scalping game much longer than I have. So that's the ego talking. So I got to put that aside. And I think the biggest thing for me is stock selection. I'm trying to hit everything and just build that account to get over PDT-1 and then build it even more. So I was selling credit spreads in Vietnam and I was trying to long some things and, you know, I only had three trades a week. So I was just like, I screwed, I'll just take a small. So I was taking small paper cuts. So that's my problem these days. It's like, what's the best plays? And I got to stick to the watch list and... Yeah, I'm helping, like I mentioned, I'm helping this guy build his account now. And like he's not an MIC, he just watches for YouTube videos and he's eventually going to join. I think it'll be a cool, he'll be someone I really want to get me and Harry to interview. But something that I've been working on with him is when it comes to like short, cause you're talking about shorting small caps and stuff. And for him, I'm really just like hammering this notion you basically have to find the weakest stock of the day. And like I tell him, like he starts in a little bit pre-market sometimes. I just tell him, man, like you are looking as a new trader trying to build their account, in my honest opinion, like you really never want to be looking at stocks that are like moving like crazy. Cause those are the ones that to be, I don't know many guys that can't nail the hot check without taking a few paper cuts. It's like very rare, right? Like you look at guys like Bear, Tom and all of us, we all take like little paper cuts in the way up usually when Harry's squeezing our S's out. So it's like, it's part of it. So you're basically looking for those like weak stocks and how I've kind of helped him grow his accounts like kind of quickly cause he's getting pretty fast with it, which is awesome. It's just like he really does kind of go into it with a consistent risk. And he gets bigger and bigger as the stock is breaking down. He's a scalper at heart. Like he is just trading line to line. He's not trying to fade the stock all day. He's not trying to hold on for hours. It really is just, he gets in as it's breaking down. He's adding, but he's always keeping his risk like very, very similar. Because that's where people fuck up when they're building their account is like, they like have like a $500, $500, like $500 days, a couple hundred dollar days, and then they lose like a thousand on a day. So it really is just keeping that like mindset of like, all right, I need to find the right stock with the right range. And that kind of gives me the ability to add while respecting like a very small, like respectable risk level. And I think that's tough. And Harry, I guess you never really have to do it because you're in Canada, right? So and you're shorting you. I've never had to deal. The only good thing about Canada is that I've never had to deal with any type of PDT restriction or anything like that because we just don't have it here. But I guess, as far as like my question for Chris, I'd say like, where do you find your biggest losses have been coming from? Like if you looked at like your last year trading and you didn't look at the options or like the, you know, credit swaps or like whatever you were doing and you just focused on your small cap trading and you said to yourself like, where are your biggest losses coming from? Like, where do you think that your biggest losses have came from? It's very similar to what I would try with options back, you know, back in 2016 or 17. I'm like, I think it's gonna do this. So I put on an options position and it doesn't work out. It's the same thing with the scalping. It's like, oh, I think the stock, it's at a line. So I think I'm gonna go long or short or whatever it is and it doesn't work out. So it's not going according to a watch list which I should just really do. And then I have that borrow and I'm like, I gotta use it, gotta use it or I have three trades. I gotta use them. It's like, no, you know. You think it's harder coming from that type of like New York Stock Exchange background because like you have this like image of your mind of like the person you're supposed to be, like where you're like, oh, well, I worked at a stock exchange. So I should be a lot better than I am. Like, do you ever kind of get that feeling in your head? Yeah, yeah. And that was, I think that has to do with ego and hubris. It's like, oh, I worked on the exchange and I seen the chaos of 2001 markets crashing and I'm working on a stock exchange. You know, it's like the closest thing to war I've ever been because it was absolutely crazy. Yeah. It's like, oh, I was working four orders and each of those orders was like a $17 million order. It's like, I can do this. And it's like, mm, it's different when you. Yeah, exactly. And I think that like also like for someone like you because I know that I would feel the same way where I'm like, oh, I fucking, I've executed millions of dollars worth of trades. Like I can just kind of step into this. Like I got this, like, you know, and you kind of have that. And it's just, I think normal human nature where, you know, like most people would approach trading and be like, like for like a lot of people like get into trading and are like, oh, this is easy. But when you have kind of had that type of background that you have, you know, it's, for me anyway, I think that it would be a lot harder for me to be wrong because like, because you're wrong and you're like, I should be right. I should be right. I should be right. Because, you know, you have this all kind of experience. But I think with a lot of kind of like brokers and stuff like that, because my uncle used to be a stock broker and my uncle told me like, oh, you'll never be as good as me. You'll never be as good as me. You'll never be this. You'll never be that. And there was kind of that friction between me and my uncle, you know, he's like, oh, trading stupid. Like he'd be telling me that trading stupid and you can't make money. And then he'd be telling me, oh, well, you'll never be as good as me. You'll never be as good as me or this or that. But when I got older and I found out what he did, I was like, well, you're only executing trades on behalf of clients. You're not actually making the trades yourself, right? Whereas, you know, as an individual retail trader, you have to kind of like come up with those ideas and those decisions yourself. But when you're kind of like a broker, if a client has a decision and he's saying execute my fucking trade, you know, you've got to execute his trade or you're out of the job, right? And so I think that was where me and my uncle got wrong because or didn't get along because as I started making money and getting better and getting better, I think there was a lot of jealousy between my uncle and this day, Bill does not fucking, he'll never understand it. Maybe three years ago, he's my mom's brother and this weird dynamic where, you know, the guy just had a really hard time seeing me become successful. And like still, like if he asked me to learn, like I would help him, like even just because I'm a nice guy, but like he never would ask to learn or he'd never asked for help because, you know, he's a successful broker wherever, you know? And I think that that is also kind of, you know, just your ego can get in the way of a lot of things and really kind of harm your growth, you know? Yeah. I think ego and like market-wise too, sorry, I just want to say as well as we're on this topic is like, I have a few friends who trade in like hedge funds and like they trade like obviously like crazy high beta names and like they just manage like one of them works for a huge huge hedge fund and him himself in his basket has like 500 million or something like that, whatever. And when I talk about small caps and stuff, he's like, he's like, dude, no one makes money in that shit. And I'm like, yeah, they do. I'm like, you don't understand, like yes they do. It's like, and he's like, no, cause like he says like he's tried it and like he can't do it. And he's, I think it's like an ego thing there. He's just like, he couldn't do it. So it's not possible. Whereas like, you know, like for me, like I see what he does, but like, I think it is all ego because I'm the opposite. When I see someone making money and everything other aspect of the market, except for Forex, I, cause I think Forex is a fucking scam and a joke and whatever. But every, when I see people making money and other things, I'm interested to learn how they're doing it. And like, I'm very curious, but like, if you have that ego that it's not possible, and I find the people who have the ego, usually the people that failed at it, cause they just can't figure it out. And it's like, this is fucking hard, dude. Like you talked about it, like you find yourself like straying away from like the simplicity stuff, like to watch this, like playing the right stocks. And it's like, I think 99% of people could probably be more successful at this. If they could just focus on the right things and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Everybody's always trying to fucking trade like better stocks and like what we can find. And it's like, dude, it's like, once you realize that when you think, if you're like on Twitter or something, you realize everybody's trading the same stock. Everybody's trading the same shit. You're not going to find this like secret little like fading stock that's going to go all day. And it's just, it's funny. If ego is like the biggest killer, I think, and I think that's why most people can't do this. But like with, with Harry's story, it's like the student became the teacher and then it's like somebody can't do that. And I mean, that's why I think I'm a, I'm a, I love it one because I'm a, I'm an educator at heart and I love helping people, but as an educator, you're also willing to learn. And look at me, I went back to school at basically 40 years old for a graduate degree, but I'm taking orders from a 22 year old kid on the bridge of a ship sometimes. And he knows more than me. And I don't think of that as a bad thing. I'm learning. I'm trying to learn from anybody I can. Yeah. So I really think that that's the right mindset like that you have because there are so many guys who are like, like who sometimes won't take calls with James or me just because they're like, oh, well, you know, like I'm, I'm this age. So, you know, I've already got life experience or I've already got this much experience. And which is true, you probably do have more life experience than me because you are 20 years older. But as far as market experience from some guys, like, you know, that's where you're lacking. And you really, you want to gain some knowledge from other people with market experience, right? Rather than have that kind of outlook of, you know, oh, well, I've lived more years than you on this earth. So that means I have to know more about the stocks than you, right? But that's not always necessarily true, you know? I wouldn't go up to a doctor and be like, well, I'm older than you. So I know how to do open heart surgery or something like that, you know? It's just, it's wild. Market doesn't give a shit. It doesn't care about your age. It doesn't care about your race. It doesn't care about anything. Oh, yeah. It really is just like experience-based. Like, again, like you get guys like, like Bao who's been in this now like 22 years, get Alex who's almost been in there, you know, eight years or whatever. And it's like, I mean, Alex when he started was 19. So I'd rather listen to him over like learning to trade than fucking Joe Schmo who's been doing this for two years, but he's 50. Now he doesn't make, it doesn't make a difference, you know? And it's just, it's funny. I think, I think unfortunately, like the market doesn't really account for your age because it just, it just all comes down to experience in trading. Actually being in the market, seeing things you're seeing. The only advantage I could see to being older sometimes is that you might have a different stance on money. You might understand how far it really goes. But then on the flip side, when you're younger, you can be a little bit more aggressive. So it's like, there is that inner balance of like finding what really, how it works for you and like where you're at. Yeah, I mean, it's just, like you said, man, it's just controlling that ego stance of like, I need to be the biggest and best thing. And because I'm older, because I'm younger, I need to do this, that and the other thing. Well, that was the thing with ego. I, you know, told that kid in 2004 to put on that Fannie Mae trade, but the market, and I knew the market was gonna crash. And that's me just saying, I knew that it was gonna crash as the ego right there, but it eventually did. I just had an educated guess, I think, but and that was what hurt me back in 2016. I was right about that. I will be right about the market crashing, but will it crash in that timeframe that I think it will crash? It could, it could not. And that's what will chop me up. And, but people take that as like, you know, you're wrong. Yeah, I'm wrong, you know, in that time. And I have to admit that to myself. You were wrong and you lost money. Yeah. And I think that like, as far as like the, like when you, when you look at it, like everyone looks at all these small cap stocks and they're like, they eventually have to go to zero, which is completely true. But then it becomes the timing. And so if you can master that kind of timing in your trading to say, I know that this is going to go down, but I don't want an average at the bottom of the range. Or, you know, if the majority, and I say this to most people, like if your average as a short seller is near the top of the range and you expect the stock to go to the bottom of the range again, then you know, probably eight times out of 10, you know, you're going to have a good shot at this, you know, because most small caps that I've seen don't really break out of that pre-market high range and keep going higher. And obviously if you break out of that range, then you want to stop out because you're wrong, but you know, the edge for a lot of short sellers that I've found has been just shorting near the top of that range and, you know, and then maybe adding when it confirms and then that's your trade and that can work out for a lot of people. And I think also that, you know, I've talked to a lot of people in, you know, MIC and, you know, just generally in the trading community. And the theme that I've found really around a lot of like winners is that if you look at people like Alex and Bao or like even like me and James, like the thing that like when we interview Alex and like I always go back on interviews and I always kind of like to re-watch them and like pick up like little things because like sometimes when you're interviewing someone like you don't always pick it up because, you know, you're on camera or whatever. So you want to re-watch how you've done and stuff like that. And the thing that I've really seen about Alex is that when you listen to Alex or Bao talk, you know, Alex is always going to say, well, I'm not the best trader. And, you know, you look at someone like Alex and you're like, well, you made like, you know, what the fuck are you talking about? He deeply believes that. He deeply feels that he's not the best trader in his heart, you know? He says every single day, well, I'm not the best trader. You know, you listen to Bao talk all the fucking time. Bao's like, I'm not the best trader. And the thing is, is that, you know, a normal person would say to themselves, well, I don't, you know, this guy's just fucking around. He's just, you know, looking for this. But I know that he actually believes that he's not the best trader. He's like, oh, these kids will do better than me, you know? Or this will do better than me. He believes in his heart that he's not the best. And I think as far as that goes, is that like winners will do, you know, a lot of work compared to the average trader or the average 90% grouping and say, well, that's not enough and actually believe that, you know, a normal person will look at them and say, well, that's more than enough. You know, you've worked all day. Like, what are you talking about? To them, it's not, it's never going to be enough, you know? And they're never going to be the best trader. And when they, you know, it's like, you know, my girlfriend is on the, you know, Geens List, whatever, and in college. And I said, well, how did you do? And she's like, well, I think I failed, you know? I didn't think I did well. And for an hour, you studied for, you know, a month, you know, we've worked on this for a month. I've helped you go over this stuff. I've written flashcards. You've gotten everything right. And she's like, no, I don't think I did well. And the test will come out and it's like 98. And she's actually surprised, you know? And I think that's a common trait with people who, you know, win in life is that they don't go out, you know, but they don't come in with like a big ego. And they really humble themselves and they really kind of take time to work and kind of learn and, you know, they're listening to the people who are 20 and they're working hard just like that. And I think that is a key ingredient to win whereas a lot of people come in and just say, oh, it's easy, like I'll be able to do this or I'll be able to do that or I'll be able to do this. And, you know, with a lot of ego and I think that is probably the biggest harm as far as trading, that's probably the biggest harm to people, you know? Yeah. I heard a good story the other day, you know, you talk about work and that's what I really take from the group, the MIC group. It's one, one, it's just educational and against, it's totally not scammy and people don't understand that when they, you know, they troll, you know, you or on whoever on Twitter or whatever and they create a fake Instagram account. You know, you've made it when people try to make a fake Instagram account about you or whatever. But it's just so educational and you're, and you just preach, put in the work. And I heard a good story the other day on a podcast. You know, Betty Crocker, they came up with the instant cake or whatever, instant something and their sales, their sales were nothing and they're like, why? It's so easy, you know? But then they went to a psychologist or something and the guy was like, you've made it too easy. People wanna feel like they've accomplished something when they make a meal. So take out one ingredient. They took out an egg, like you have to go to the store and buy the egg to add to that cake mix and then sales increased. And it was just like, yeah, like, I'm gonna feel, when I do this trading thing and I get better and I get above the waterline, I'm gonna feel so much better because I put in the work and that has to do with anything in life and that's, you've seen it as, you know, things become, have become easier in time in history, you know, but you're still gonna have to put in the work and I'm gonna feel better because I did that Coast Guard test and I passed that and I'm only 20% of the people that passed the first time. I feel great about that. But people don't understand that. And then like on another topic, like back to the hubris part of it, I have a contrarian nature and I just, you know, I just think that like Kosh and I go back and forth on Instagram. I don't know if he knows it's me, but we agree on Bitcoin, but we disagree on Tesla. And I just, you know, you have to stick with your contrarian viewpoint about certain things and that's me. And I just have to maybe say, all right, I was wrong and get out of that position that, cause my thesis didn't play out. I'll tell you something like, I think, like what you said about the easiness, I think it was very true and I think people see MIC and they want there to be something more to it. I've like, I've traded with Alex on the phone during my first red days and stuff. And like, dude, like, I mean, literally if you look at his chart, it's like, there's VWAP and that's it, right? It's just like his, everything is so simple and it's so easy. The problem is it's the human, it's the operator is just they can't admit defeat. And I think it took me like, I think I'm honestly like, even though I've done well for a while, but like, I think I'm really just realizing this a lot more now is just like, especially when you try to size up like sizing itself isn't necessarily difficult. If you can just accept when you're wrong because you can technically have huge size on a trade like tons and tons of size, as long as you can accept when it's time to get out, but it's for some reason, I've just over the years and this isn't everything in life. This is like trading, this is like business, everything. It's really hard for people to just hear, you're wrong, it's time to get out. But how many trades do you like not get out of stubbornness to get stopped out at the top or, you know, cover at the bottom or sell at the bottom, just to realize that if you just took that small, small loss, you would have made all that money back plus a shit ton more if you just then waited for the right entry. And I don't know what it is, man, but it's like that's something that's kept in my head a lot recently. It's just that they would just accept you're wrong. It's okay. Like you take a, you're using 5,000 shares and you take a $500 loss, which is small compared to that. And then you finally hit the trade and you make $2,000, who the hell cares about the $500 loss? You just made money back. Like it's just for whatever reason, it's like people, they lose and they shut down and then they can't just get their mind out of it. And that's what blows my mind. It's like, I mean, Alex was down, what was that? There was that one day he was down like 60K but he said he was all in composure and he's just like, he's like, I know the opportunity is still coming. You know, it was like a big, big day set up and everything. And then he ended up making like under an 82K like on that next trade, right? And it's like, it's just a weird mind thing. And I think all, a lot of guys I talk to like on calls and DMs just like, they short a VWAP rejection and they don't stop out and they get pissed. They're like, wait, it didn't work but I stopped out at high of day. I'm like, why didn't you stop out when the VWAP rejection didn't work? When your line failed to work and confirm why didn't you stop out? And I, again, I fell victim to that for years where I just would like kind of like, I got billed out a lot, especially in like the last market cycle like I'd short a line and like, it would kind of go against me but I had size left and I'm like, all right, well, I'm just gonna add when it curves. But in the reality is like, and I made money, but the reality is it was not allowing my P&L to grow because I was, you know, kind of fighting the stock anyways, whereas now I'm just like, fuck it, I'll take the small loss because I don't care. And I just had to humble myself, you know? I think like the biggest thing that, the biggest thing that kind of opened my eyes was that, okay, let's say your idea is you think that it's gonna be a high day clear out, which some of them clear out, some of them don't, right? You know, that's just what happens. The stock goes above high day. Sometimes they stop out all the shorts and it just tanks and it's like, okay. So let's say you have that type of idea or you could do vice versa. Let's say you think it's going to be a low day clear out and you're a long trader, right? If you just add like, let's say 10 or 20% of your size because as my nature, I am always fucking early. I'm always early. I'm just like Chris where I have an idea but I'm always fucking early. So I was like, okay, well, how am I gonna combat that? Right? And if you're under PDT, like, I don't know if this can work, but let's say you add like, you know, 10 to 20% of your size saying, okay, I think this idea is going to work. I think it's going to happen, but until I'm right, I can't add all the size that I wanna add. Yeah, yeah. We go into high a day and I put that 10 to 20% of my size that I wanna use on and you're saying to yourself, okay, well, we'll see what happens next. I don't keep adding to 100%. I'm gonna say I'm gonna wait for this to confirm. Let's say we go up to high a day. You know, the thing fucking comes up, starts fucking crashing, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, it's going down lower. Then I add my size because I'm proven right. And then as we go lower and lower and lower, you can either add more or just keep the original size that you add on. And number one, if you're wrong in that situation, you can be fucking blown out and you have to stop out quick, but because it's only 10 to 20%, it doesn't hurt you in the long run. And when the stock does confirm, you're still right. And also that allows you to confirm to your winner because you're like, oh my God, like I'm right now. And adding my size when I'm right, not when I'm wrong or what I think is going to happen. And so if you wanna take a 10% or 5% short on Tesla on the way up and say to yourself, well, I'm gonna add when this stock crashes and when people are going fucking nuts, that is the appropriate way to do so on something like that. And if we keep going up, you can just stop out and you're like, oh, well, it's only this much money. It's not really that much. It doesn't fucking matter. But the point is that you don't keep adding when you're wrong. You say, I have this idea, I think this is going to happen. This is going to be my plan. And then you kind of take that trade and just see if it works out. And I think that is the most eye-opening thing because if you're a long trader and you go long saying, I think the stock is going to run and you go a little bit of size and then the stock runs and you're like, wow, the stock's running now. When you add all your size and we start moving up and moving up, that's the appropriate way I think to trade as a long trader as well as to trade as a short trader is that use that little bit of size to control your FOMO. And when you're right, fucking load the boat. And if you can do that every time, right? For early people like us, that is what can really, really help you. Just like James talking about that VWAP rejection, I'm going to fantasy order 10 to 20% of my size at VWAP because I believe that there's going to be a VWAP rejection, but I don't really have that confirmation. And so you take a little bit into that VWAP and then when VWAP confirms when we get that candle, you're like, fuck it, I can add anywhere I want in this candle. The top of the candle, the middle of the candle, the bottom of the candle, because I am right. I deserve the fucking chase now because I had the idea, I am right. And when that thing fucking fades down lower, you're like, boom, I fucking nailed that trade. And why did you nail that trade? Because you weren't fucking, let's say we cut right through VWAP. Oh, well, it's only 10 to 20%. I can wait for the next line, right? You're fully fucking committed and invested into the trade. And that can really help you a lot. But why can't people do it? Like, that blows my mind. It starts to actually frustrate me sometimes. It's like, why would you talk to people? And Chris, maybe you have a good answer. Like, what is it preventing people from like, I don't want to say humbling themselves, but just like stopping, especially if they're over PDT. Like if you're under PDT, that is a mental battle. And I, you know, I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole PDT, but like it's a mental battle of accepting you're wrong and sometimes not having another trade. But I don't understand. But they're conditioned that way. They're conditioned to think that I have to put on a full position right away. And it's like you're giving yourself less chance if you do that. Like they just, they haven't put in the work with MIC. But I think with me personally, I've been down 50% on an option as trade and it's come back and I've made, you know, 50%, 100%, 200%. So I think that was my problem. I'm like, oh, it could come back. And it's like, no, you're wrong. You got to stop out on a scalp or whatever. But also I think like, I use, I'm big on analogies, I'm an educator, but I would score the basketball games in, you know, I'd be the timekeeper or whatever and handle the clock and stuff. And I would catch myself. I'd be watching the game and say, oh, this kid just shot this when I have to be paying attention to the bigger picture of the ref blowing the whistle and that sort of thing and hitting the buttons. So I could get caught in that minutia, I guess. And I'm not paying attention to the bigger picture on the screen here. And that's a big thing. But also going back to what you said about, you know, Alex and just putting in the work, I was a couple of months ago, when I was in Vietnam, he did a morning watch list video and he said, no one's watching these videos. And he was kind of upset by that. And I texted, I emailed him or DMed him and I said, the people that aren't watching, are watching the videos care that you're doing this. And if they're not gonna watch the morning watch this video or put in the work, we don't want them. Like, let them be. Cause then they're not, they're gonna come into this group. They're gonna be going, hey, where's this line? Where's this stock? They're gonna be DMing all of you guys and filling your inboxes with crap minutia questions. And you don't want that. You want the guy that's gonna look for a video first and ask questions for harder things. Bro, we have 2,400 members, right? We have 2,400 members. And I would say, and I'm not calling people out, I'm just gonna make my broad statement. I bet 200 of that 2,400, maybe 400, maybe I'll even go that, actually put in like serious, serious work. And I think like put in such hard work cause this is what they want. I think the rest of them, like you have to be super honest with yourself. Like most of the time I feel like you say you're putting hard work, but the reality is you're just showing up and like wondering why you're losing. And you might like listen to a few videos and then be like, what the hell? You know, I'm still not getting it. But there's so much into this. And it's true. It's just like you, like you said, there are, there is a small finite group of people here that are putting in the work. Cause like, if you want to do this successfully, like there is a ton of work. And it's annoying because it's not like college where like you go to college and it says four years, you get your degree, you're done. This is like your tuition. It could be six months. It could be a year. It could be 10 years. It really is different for you. But I do find that like the more you put into it right away, like it's obviously, you're going to get all that market experience that much quicker. And it's like, it's obvious. Like you have been here a little bit. And I always hear from you, like you said, you're always active and like and all that shit. And it's going to show. And like you will be the person that, you know, you're above water and it'll come quicker than you think. But I think what you said 200 people out of 2400, that's statistically accurate. Cause yeah, and that's fine. Cause those people will fail and they'll be shaken out. And, you know, but I think being on a boat and sometimes we have internet, sometimes we don't. And I've been, you know, it's tough cause I can't download the videos from MIC onto my laptop or something. But I'm listening to any, like we have to do sanitary on the boat and, you know, clean them up or just to keep it whatever. So I'm always listening to podcasts, reading a book and that's just, it's something to keep me in the game even if I'm not technically in the game on a boat. But, you know, it's rewarding when you put in the work and it's paying off. And it's not paying off yet, but I know it will. Yeah, of course, man. Of course. And I guess we, I didn't even realize we're coming up on almost an hour, like 40 minutes. So I know I didn't even realize, but before we wrap up, what is something that you would recommend to all new traders, aspiring traders or people who are stubborn really found their way? If it's a new trader, I think what I've been focusing on is that one play, that one, that's what I keep hearing in the podcasts, chat with traders podcast or whatever, or this podcast is that focus on that one play and what suits your personality. But also like being an educator, you get the kid that always goes to the bathroom is always on their phone. And they're the ones that are asking, what is VWAP? Or what is it? It's like, don't go to the bathroom, stay here and pay attention. That's annoying to me. Lester, the kid going to the bathroom to trade stocks, like they fuck out of a position, bro. Yeah, exactly. But they got to watch the videos and to take three months to watch, just watch videos and sit in front of your computer and watch the market. Cause that's what I did in Vietnam. I was like sitting there not being able to trade, but they're mostly every night watching the markets and they're not doing that. I just want to add one more thing before we go. I forget which book I picked this up out of, but a lot of people, as far as like watching videos and stuff like that, it's really just getting started, right? And so if you, let's say you love to hang out in your living room and your living room is your number one spot in the house. If you stick a laptop in the living room or if you stick a book out in the living room and you just put it on your coffee table, when you're watching TV, you're going to be looking at the TV, looking down at that book, looking at the TV, looking down at that book. And then eventually you're going to have to pick that book up because you're looking at the book, you're looking at the TV, and you're like, fuck, I can't watch TV anymore. I have to read this book. And if you stick education in spots where you're not doing education, it's really kind of helped me as well. Whereas like, I'll stick a laptop on the living room table. And then, as my girlfriends watching the bats or something like that, I got my laptop and fucking look there or, let's say you're in the bathroom, you got to take a ship before the open, but there's a book right beside it. Maybe you can like read a book there or something like that. And that is what kind of helped me a lot as far as just getting going. Not interested in the battle is just to get going every day, just to study every day. And so if you put a tablet or something like that, maybe you're cooking and you have a tablet on the counter or something like that, if you do stuff like that, little tricks like that, that can help you a lot as far as just getting going. I have a laptop to watch videos. I have a physical book. I have my phone with the Kindle app and podcasts on it. And then I have a Kindle. So I have all those all the time. But I think, I guess, you know, I know we got to go, but one more final point is that also, if you're not really loving this, then it'll shake those people out. And like the example, the analogy, I was a golf coach in Shanghai and I love golf, but I dreaded going to practice every day. It's just, I didn't like the practice. I like to play. But then when I coach softball and I was taking the stats for the kids and showing them their stats and looking forward to doing the stats, I love that sort of thing. And I looked forward to going to that practice every day and because I found something that I liked and that's, you know, this, I'm doing the little tiny things every day to get better because I love it. If you're not obsessed with this, if you're not obsessed with this, you'll become obsolete. It won't, you won't make it. You won't make it. I wish this was something that I could just like give it to my parents or my friends and be like, dude, this is how you do it. Like go enjoy it. But like you can tell like the ones that ask for help and then you explain it to them and then they're just like, oh, like, you know, can you kind of tell me what to do? And I'm like, dude, I already can tell you, you're not gonna make it bro, you're fucked. Like this isn't gonna work. If you're not sitting there like, I remember, and this is the last thing I started to talk, it just got in my head now. Like I remember like when MIC first came to be and like where the after hours became a thing. So we were in there 24 seven, 24 seven. We were in there shooting the shit, talking about trading, making jokes, like talking about what we found, talking about how we trade all that shit. And it just, it truly shows in the people who are here now and the people who will be here for a long time. Versus the people that come in on a Monday, they're bitching, they didn't make money on a Tuesday. They're asking for a refund Wednesday. I mean, that's just goes in life and everything like that. But yeah, I'm so thankful for MIC. Like I was down a rabbit hole. Like I love the trading, but you're kind of, I was in a group trading options, which is great. It was a great group, you know, not scammy, but then there's a certain someone with, for a course that's expensive. And you're like, I was down a rabbit hole. Like, why can't I just find my, teach myself to fish? But I'm learning to do that. And I'm at the bottom of the ocean trying to do that. And it wasn't working until I found MIC. And I'm just like, thank God, like people that have great intentions. Yeah. Oh dude, I love it. I love it. And again, thank you for coming on, bro. I think, I think we're, we're coming up. We've had so many interviews and like it's been long enough. So we always want to keep having people back on, especially as they progress. So, so let's keep in touch and let's, we'll get you back on as soon as possible. Yeah, I appreciate it. I hope to be above that water line soon. Yeah, you will be, bro, you will be.