 All right, well, welcome to the show, Karen. It's great to have you with us. Thank you so much. And we're excited today to talk about leadership. And I know it's something that Johnny and I hear a lot of questions around, especially with our clients who are now moving into leadership roles in their career. And it's one of those areas where there isn't training in school. Of course, a lot of times we get placed in these leadership roles without a clear understanding or even witnessed good leadership. So oftentimes we have bad bosses. We have mentors who maybe don't have strong leadership skills. And now we're in a role where we have to lead people. So we're going to unpack the science of great leadership today. And I'd love to just kick this off to hear a little bit of how you got involved in leadership training and what leadership really means to you. My story until leadership development is kind of an interesting one. So my doctorates in marriage and families I'm actually a registered therapist. I still practice one day a week. People actually often ask me if I still practice, but I do for a lot of reasons I still do. One of them is that I just love it. But I started my work 25 years ago. I was my early 20s and I was asked by a local doctor to set up a practice within his medical center. And because I was so young, I was 22 at the time. And I had all these teenagers as my clients. And I learned very quickly that a lot of therapists don't like working with teenagers. It's a niche market. They're very particular. And I love young people. I love their curiosity and their passion. And because also my focus was very solution-focused, I love to address what's the problem. Let's try to fix this head on. And so people saw results really quickly. And so the word got out. 200 doctors started sending me their patients and my practice literally exploded. And so in Canada, I became quite well known as being a teen expert or a millennial expert. And I started doing speaking tours across the country and companies would sponsor my work. And it was all super fun. And I did television. I was telling Johnny I had a music talk show. Worked with all the record labels. This is a psychology music talk show. And it was all around kind of teenagers and millennials. And so I did that for the first 10 years. And then it was really interesting when millennials hit the workforce, I started getting calls from companies. And it was the companies that were sponsoring my work. So the Pepsi's and the Microsoft's and the e-harmonies. And so these companies that I was working with, I started getting calls from those CEOs and the senior leaders saying, Karen, your doctorate in systems, family systems, could you apply what you know from family systems into the workplace? Because we're now hiring millennials and we don't understand them. We don't know how they need to be managed. Managers are having a major retention problem. So I thought, you know what, why not? I love people. So I'll just kind of transfer that knowledge. And I found it was actually pretty easy. I mean, people are people, right? So I started working with companies of all sizes, a lot of family businesses, Fortune 500 companies, on really helping their managers manage millennials. And as I dove into that work, it became crystal clear that there were certain managers that were crushing it and some managers that were doing a terrible job. And when I looked very deeply at it, it was basically emotional intelligence. So the managers that were doing a great job and had these engaged teams, they had high emotional intelligence. And those managers who didn't have it, they had, you know, people were quitting, you know, without warnings. Like, where's Johnny? I don't know where Johnny is. Johnny's like not showing up today. No offense to Johnny. That's a terrible name that now that I realize that Johnny's on this call. But, you know, if I've got, you know, there's kind of this whole sense around, this whole sense around, you know, if managers don't have leadership emotional intelligence, they're gonna have major problems. So that's where my nation focus really ended up. And I became excited about the topic because leadership, emotional intelligence are skills people can learn. It's not taught in business school. And yet it is one of the, it is literally the number one predictor of around engagement and retention is the leadership EQ score of a manager. And so that's where I landed. And so wrote a book called The Three Chairs, came out last year. The hit number two in the Wall Street Journal and then just did a Ted talk about it as well. And so, but I'm passionate about it because when people learn about a leadership emotional intelligence, it benefits every part of their life. It benefits their team. It benefits the company. It benefits the profit. And it also benefits their personal life and their, you know, their relationship marriage and kids as well. So it's been just an amazing journey and so much fun. I think in that story lies part of why emotional intelligence is so important and why some people had developed it and flourished in that role. And those who didn't kind of petered out and exhausted themselves, which is while rising through the ranks to get to a leadership position, you start to feel very confident in how you got there. So you have a fixed mindset of what allowed you to get there. And so this is how you're going to rule over your team and you're going to expect the same to them, but people are different and there's different motivations. And now the most important part is while dealing with millennials, you're dealing with a generation gap that technology divided further. And so those motivations are completely different. If you have the emotional intelligence to understand you're not leading a group of people like yourself, you are leading a group of people with different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different ideas, growing up in different environments. So that emotional intelligence is going to allow you to speak to each one individually to find out what it is that is going to motivate them rather than here's how I got here and this is and I expect the same from you guys and you're going to need to follow the lead. No, you're absolutely right. And that's kind of why we need the education. People often ask me around kind of the focus around education. We still need education. The education is still going to kind of get us in the door, but what we find is the best predictor really for around when people are getting promoted, it's no longer those technical skills, it's those EQ skills because you can know, like we do a lot of work with engineers, accountants, law firms, professional groups, people that are super bright. You can have very, very high IQ and very low EQ. It actually uses different parts of the brain. People think it's not correlated. So that's why it's fascinating. So you can have this incredible sense of skill in this one part of your life. You get into the workforce, you get into your job, you're doing really well at this, and all of a sudden you get promoted, but the second you're promoted and you are now managing people, people skills are a totally different set of skills than the technical skills. And so that's why you can do really well on the technical side and do really terrible at the managing side. And this is why we get hired. We work with companies in seven countries around the world, different industries to help managers learn how to successfully manage people because it's a totally different set of skills. Well, you talk about this in the book and I think it's such an important observation that many in their career look at the title as granting them leadership. So it's like, if I just get to this upper management level and I get the title, then people will listen to me, they'll give me respect and all of this is gonna fall into place. But actually it's the opposite. It's the real work begins when you become a leader because you have to work on your own self-awareness. And as Johnny said, yes, there are some leaders who know how they themselves are motivated and how they got there, but oftentimes they don't even realize it because to your point, a lot of these technical skills, these highly developed skill sets don't often involve interaction with other people, don't involve motivating teams. It's you siloed working with a computer, it's you siloed working with your hands, getting very proficient at that one distinct skill set. But then all of a sudden you're asked, well, you have to lead a team with that skill set. How does that translate over and how do we actually learn those soft skills? Because Johnny and I completely agree and it's why we started The Art of Charm, but I know there are still people who listen to this show who are like, some people just have it, some people have IQ, they're born with it. How do we actually really develop it if we've now recognized that this is a gap and I know that my company or management is not gonna give me the training necessary, I'm on my own to develop these skills? Honestly, this is why I am so passionate about this topic because once I really did digging in terms of what exactly is emotional intelligence and realize these are skills we can learn. This is not like IQ that tends to be more fixed. EQR is simply a set of skills and here's a fun question. So in a typical business conference, if I'm speaking and I start talking about leadership EQ and I'll say, okay, put your hand up if you know what emotional intelligence is, almost everybody's hand goes up. If I say, hey, tell me what is emotional intelligence? I am lucky if I get one to two people's hand to go up, even in an audience of like 500 people. And then if I say, tell me how you change it, nobody's hand goes up and that's where there's a gap. So there's a ton of research on what EQ is and Johnny's like bursting laughing. Having over indexes on their emotional intelligence and we laugh and we're like, we're doing the show. We see the research and we see how people interact with that and also we understand those blind spots and patterns as we've been doing this for 15 years. So that's where the, so there's been tons of research that emotional intelligence is a proven science that it is correlated with engagement and retention, period. And we're seeing this even more so than the internet. I mean, EQ has always been important, but where we really kind of saw a massive shift is when the internet hit because all of a sudden, you know, you can take somebody who has got drive, who's got goals that has self-discipline can get themselves a mentor and all of a sudden they're crushing it in the workplace. That all of that is they've just used their EQ, right? So before it was more traditionally, you had to get the education to kind of quote unquote be successful. What we're seeing now is that education is still important, but it's not as important. It will certainly as the same part, if not EQ is actually even a little bit more important. So to your point, AJ, the first thing is for people to understand what it is, to understand with what it is and then to actually measure it and then you kind of figure out what are the tools that I need to kind of help expand it. So I like taking a lot of research, finding the patterns and simplifying in a way that's really easy for people to understand. So for everybody listening, the next time you hear a speaker talk about emotional intelligence, they say, do you know what it is? They put your hand up and you say, what is it? You can actually very comfortably put your hand up. So yes, I know what it is. So what EQ is are five skills. It spells the acronym cards. It's our own little acronym. It helps people remember it. I like acronyms because it helps us kind of chunk that information. So here are the five skills everybody. And I want you to just think to yourself, how would you rate yourself according to these five skills? All right. So the first C stands for your communication skill, your ability to give and receive feedback. It's your ability to build trust with your teams. A stands for your attitude, your attitude of yourself. Are you arrogant, confident or insecure? Humility is a huge piece around confidence. Are you willing to receive feedback? Okay. That's all part of the A. It's also goal setting is also part. So it's attitude and goal setting. So somebody who has very high EQ, they know what they want in their life. They've got goals, they've got direction. They know with where they're heading. R stands for your relationship skills. Exactly what Johnny was talking about. Your ability to see life from a different lens. Realizing that how you see the world is how different than how other people see the world. That's where cultural differences, personality differences, gender differences, all kind of come into play. It's understanding that the way that I see it is going to be different than how AJ sees it, is going to be different than how Johnny sees it. And being able to lean into that and listen. D stands for your decision-making and your self-discipline and your performance skills. So that's an interesting one. People don't realize that when you're managing your time, you're using your emotional intelligence. So somebody with a really high EQ, they're able to say, this is the goal I want, and they're able to be self-discipline and step on the gas and take initiative. Even though it doesn't feel right, or they don't feel motivated, they do it anyway. So that's kind of a really critical piece around EQ. And a lot of people don't know that. And the last one, which is huge, especially with the whole mental health movement, is your stress and your energy emotion management skills. Somebody who has really high EQ, they understand with what emotions are. They can differentiate between a thought and a feeling. They know what they need to do to kind of lower their stress. They have certain rituals and habits and boundaries in place to manage their stress so that they can actually operate at a very high level. So high performers, a lot of we work with a lot of high performers and they really focus on how do you perform at a very high level with actually lowered stress. So those are the five core skills. They're all important. And for anybody who wants to kind of do a little scorecard, we have a free scorecard you can go to our website, DKleadership.org. And in Canada, .org is not a nonprofit. I get asked this all the time for my American friends. They're like, .org. Isn't that like, no, in Canada, it's for everybody. So DK stands for Dr. Karen, leadership.org. And you can go and you can download, it's a scorecard, it's free. And you can do it with yourself, you can do it with your family, you can do it with your team. And it's a really great one pager to help you quickly identify where are you as a self-assessment tool according to those five skills. It helps you understand, okay, wow, I'm doing really well in these three, but these two I've really got to, I've got to lean into. And so that's a really good first step in terms of helping to build your EQ. One that you mentioned there was the decision-making aspect. And this is a pattern that we have recognized in a lot of our clients. And when noticing it, I tend to see it going to how millennials have learned to use the computer to answer questions that lead them to take action. And where that breaks down, because of course, if you can find all the information you need to make a educated decision, great, so be it. You would want to do that. But where the breakdown happens is when it's too much information and now they're overloaded with information. And because of that, there is no clear-cut answer that lights up that they can choose. And then there is a breakdown of wanting to put that aside or come back to it later or come back to it when maybe that answer will light up. But that answer will never light up. And it's something that I say all the time that sometimes there's no right or wrong answers, only answers that you make right or right or wrong decisions, but decisions that you make right, which you're gonna have to make a leap of faith in what your goals are and the values that you want to engage in to reach those goals, because in there lies the right answer. And that is reflection that you yourself have to figure out. Right. And you know, it's something that is really interesting and it comes up in management all the time, is around, and you talked about it earlier, around the values, okay? So you have, so this is where everything kind of starts intersecting like a big puzzle piece, right? So you've got emotional intelligence, these five core skills, then now let's kind of add on the generations. And so all of a sudden you've got different, and that's kind of part of the R, the right, the relationship categories in terms of understanding how people kind of see things different. But, you know, one of the generational differences, and this is again, when I do a lot of training on, is managers, so Gen X managers, they tend to manage according to how they want to be managed. So if AJ is on my team and I'm a Gen X, I'm like, hey AJ, here's the assignment, let me know when it's done. And if you're a Gen X, that will work well. If you're a millennial, that will probably not work well because AJ might feel, start feeling alienated and he might not feel supported because they are used to a much more collaborative approach. So all of a sudden that one misunderstanding causes massive conflict in companies. I mean, literally people quit over it. Like I, and I talk about this in the book example, right? Like in terms of how people literally will quit because they feel not supported and they need to kind of have that career path, but so that's why managers desperately need to get this kind of training so that they can understand, oh, okay, this is with what they value, this is with who they are, this is with what they need. And the coolest thing is like a lot of the things that millennials want and need are things that are free. Like they're not even things that actually cost money for companies. It just takes intentionality and time, right? So it's really interesting. Once we kind of dial it back, it's all very solvable, but we do have to kind of lean in and have the growth mindset compared to the fixed mindset. What strikes me in all of those different parts, the five pieces is a level of self-awareness it takes to really understand your EQ. We sort of talked about this, like everyone sort of overestimates their EQ, but the problem is oftentimes if you're lacking in communication, you don't have the right attitude, your relationship skills aren't that great. There isn't much of a feedback loop there. Like you're not getting graded on this in school, you're not getting feedback from management, typically it's not part of your performance review. Typically, oh, you communicate poorly, but people just move away from you. We try to avoid people with low EQ because interacting with them takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of energy, and then you fall behind in your career and you may not even realize it. As like, I feel like I'm performing, I feel like I'm completing the tasks on time, I'm showing up, I'm going to the meetings, I'm doing everything, but this EQ really is that roadblock to your career success in moving up the ladder. And unfortunately, relying on self-awareness, right? Your friends and family might be like, you're a great communicator. Oh, you have a wonderful attitude, but they don't see you under stress at work when you have that poor, defeatist attitude, you're in the victim mentality, you're not giving the communication its need inside of the group setting in the collaboration that's expected. I love that you have the self-assessment. What are some signs that maybe our listeners might need to pay attention to or some warning signs around, hey, you might need to work on some of these areas to really move into that leadership role. Well, I think it's a great question. So, step one is do the self-awareness tool, okay? It's a great way. You can kind of come back to it every three months, six months. If you wanted to get really bold, really bold, okay? We're going for gutsy moves here. Take the same assessment tool and give it to your team and say, I would love you to score me on this. And then put those numbers together and see, oh, look at Johnny's eyes, just like lit up. Yes, that's what happened. So you see, because we can see ourself in one way and then the question is, does our team see us? So we might, let's say I give myself a nine on my communication skill and then I give it to my team. They're like, I actually care, you might give yourself a seven, right? Obviously you're like, ooh, okay, there's a gap. Let's lean into it. So that's a really easy kind of fun way of actually kind of, again, this is all gonna be for people that are like really gutsy with it. But getting feedback to your point is exactly the next step. Feedback is critical. And this is why, in my TED talk, I talk about in the book, I talk about it, like it's hard because if somebody is struggling with their EQ, if somebody is struggling with security, the very thing that they don't want is feedback. Like they're what I call feedback fragile, right? So you kind of like, you try to give feedback and they just kind of crumble because they take it personal. So I think it's really important for everybody listening is if you really want to develop your EQ, be feedback hungry. Lean into it. Don't wait for somebody to give you feedback, lean into it. And I usually like to encourage people to ask, somebody ask when a couple of people at work because you're right AJ, people will give you different feedback in different environments. But if you're really gutsy, ask your spouse and ask your children because you need to have that full 360. We have another free tool on our website. We created it for parents of kids and teenagers. So if you really want to be gutsy and test your emotional intelligence in the communication side, you can download it again. It's free. It's a report card for parents and parents have loved this. So basically, so it's a parent saying to their kid, you know, I wanna be a great parent. What I'd love to know, what am I doing? Well, what am I not doing? I'll let the kids actually give that feedback because for a lot of kids, they don't know how to give the feedback like to your point, right? So getting feedback and asking for feedback is what I call the accelerator to this process. It doesn't have to take five years. It can take, you know, a few weeks if we kind of really lean into it. And I know it sounds intimidating, but if you approach your manager outside of the performance review cycle, seeking this feedback, you actually showcase that you are a top performer, that you are willing to go that next step. So I know it may be fearful to say, well, I'm gonna burden my manager. I'm gonna ask him something outside of the performance review cycle that we have. And it will feel awkward, but in actuality, it's a signal to management that you actually have high EQ, even if you might not have it yet that you're willing to pursue this feedback. And if you don't have a great relationship with your manager or you just started, then go back to your previous roles manager and say, can I just borrow five minutes of your time? I'm looking for feedback in these areas. Please be as honest with me as possible. And we've had coaching clients go and do this with their past managers, and that allowed them to see gaps that they didn't even realize. And oftentimes when you start a new role, you're trying your best to assimilate. There's a lot of new things that you need to learn to understand those gaps going into that new role. That really sets you up for success instead of waiting for the six month, one year performance review where oftentimes that feedback is going to be too late to act on to really change their perception. And it's actually, you've said so many things I 100% agree with. One of them is from a management's perspective and this for all managers listening, it's not that I'm against performance reviews, but for the love, please just use it as like a formality. The real feedback and performance review has to be ongoing. It has to be an ongoing conversation. It is not fair to tell somebody once a year what they've done wrong. Like it's just not fair. All of a sudden they need to know on the spot what are they doing well and what actually needs work. It will save you time, it will save you energy. It gives a person a chance to course correct it. So it's one of the biggest things. Again, I know a lot of companies use performance reviews, but use it as a formality. The real feedback has to be in relationship ongoing as a conversation. So I think that's a really important piece. The feedback, if we can just start getting a little bit more comfortable with asking for feedback. I think that's a really, because people will, people are often hesitant to give it, right? So I mean, this is kind of with what both of you are saying. So if you can kind of have the courage to ask whether it's the current manager or previous manager, I think is great. And for anybody in the business arena, if there is one thing, we do a lot of work with HR managers and they're like, what are those kind of clues that you look for about somebody who should be promoted? One of the first things I'd be looking for is any sign about growth mindset. What books are they listening to? What podcasts are they listening to? What TED talks are they watching? When's the last time they actually asked for feedback? Like how did that go? That's because there's a lot of things we can train. But if somebody is not wanting or desiring to develop their leadership EQ skill, you cannot force that. Like you cannot force it. One of the things we joke with our clients because we have an EQ training program and I tell our HR managers, I'm like, listen, a great way to kind of figure out whether or not you should promote somebody is just offer it complimentary and see who shows up. You will see very quickly. Who is really hungry saying, oh my goodness, what a gift? Thank you so much. I am gonna put my hand up versus who are the people going seriously? Do we have to? And talk about an amazing way to filter out people that are not really ready for the next level leadership. It's a great way of kind of like filtering through who is kind of ready for that next step. Well, it's something we've also talked about on the show before as well that if you do not have a growth mindset or you're not somebody who they feel they can give feedback to, you're gonna find yourself in a personal improvement program, which they call PIP. And that doesn't mean they're trying to help you out. That means they're shooing you out the door and that they're taking care of legalities. And it's often too late in that moment. The key in all of this though is just saying, hey, can you give me feedback? No specificity tied to it, which is why I love the self-assessment saying, hey, these are the five areas I'd like feedback in. That actually gives your manager, your former manager, an idea of what specifically you're looking for. Because feedback is so broad. It's completely broad. And because people don't feel comfortable giving it, oftentimes they'll give you something complimentary or something small just to like answer the question and get away from the stress of, is this person ready for feedback? Can this person handle the feedback? So having a specificity tied to seeking that feedback, you're gonna find not only does it increase your self-awareness, but it showcases your willingness to be that growth-minded person and your readiness for a leadership role. I agree. And I think it's such an amazing sign for everybody listening. Just think about that for a second. Just think about how would it be received if you were to give that one pager to your manager saying, I really wanna do a great job here. I really, that's my intent. My intent is to be a great employee at this company. And I would love your honest feedback around what am I doing well in these five skills and what actually needs work. And I just would really appreciate that honest feedback and to kind of give it to them. And the beautiful thing about it is that it's one page, it will take him probably like 10 minutes. So time is another really big one, right? So if these assessment tools are like so lengthy and they're like 15 pages, the first thing that we do is like, okay, I don't have time for that. But if it's only gonna take five to 10 minutes, I find the secret is 10. If it's more than 10 people, like I don't have time. But if it's like it'll take him five to 10 minutes and I would just so appreciate. And then you get those numbers, because I love numbers because you can measure EQ. It's not this airy-fairy thing. It's you can measure it. Then all of a sudden you're like, wow, okay. And if the number is low, because there will be some surprise, some you might get rated higher than others. But if the numbers are kind of a little bit low, my encouragement for everybody listening is lean in, lean into it, don't step back, lean in saying, first of all, thank you so much for the feedback. Train yourself to say thank you and you get the feedback. Thank you so much for the feedback. I'm curious, that's one of my favorite lines. I'm curious, this number here, I'm surprised that it was maybe rated a four. Could you help me understand maybe why you rated a four or what did I do that kind of gave you that impression? So you get curious, not defensive, because what that does is that creates the culture that you are really growth-minded. You're not, this isn't like a checkbox going like, oh, I really want the feedback, I don't really want the feedback. So you take the number and you lean into it. And if you kind of get that understanding, maybe it's something somebody said or they worded, like you can just get so much value back in that conversation. So the assessment tool really becomes just a piece to kind of start the conversation, a very meaningful conversation. What I found in that conversation in my own leadership role here at the company is oftentimes upon receiving feedback, that person will then ask for specific instances. And they're not often asking for specific instances because they want to learn from it, they get defensive and they want to push back and say that, well, actually you have the wrong perspective or didn't go that way. And they get into this like history, revisionist history cycle that takes them off course from really learning from what that feedback is. So if you do score low, don't worry about specific instances, clarify if it's not clear what that is and sit with it and go back and revisit it 24, 48 hours later because there is going to be a motion tied to it. Like there's no denying it, even the strongest among us. And we've had fascinating, wonderful, successful guests on the show who talk about their failures and mistakes and how emotionally charged that was. Understand that those emotions will pass in getting that, wow, I thought I'm a seven in communication, I'm really a two. And don't put your walls up and say, oh, I got a fight. I got to prove them wrong, revisit it and then set up a follow up three, four, six months later to say, hey, you know, I've really been leaning in in this area. Am I on the right track? Are you noticing improvements? That closing the loop is also key because feedback is only effective if it actually results in a change in behavior, if it actually results in improvement. It's one thing when you're receiving the feedback to sit with it, but also as somebody who's giving the feedback to know that they're gonna have an emotional reaction from what you're about to tell them. And AJ and I have set this up with clients and with people who've worked for us. We're like, listen, I'm going to tell you a few things and I don't need a conversation about it right now. What I'd like to do is just present you with a few things, give you an opportunity to think about this and then let's come back and have a conversation in a few days. Because whatever conversation is going to happen after that will be from a heightened emotional state. And the person that you're giving the feedback to they're certainly gonna be it, but if they have an opportunity to rebut that and go off, you're gonna go into a heightened emotional state. So it's best to say, I wanna present a few things. I want you to chew on it over the weekend. Hey, and let's talk about it Monday. I would love to hear your thoughts. People like feedback differently. So some like it over the phone, some like it face to face, some like it in an email so that they can actually read it and process it before they talk. So I think, you know, when we're talking about how to give like really effective feedback. And again, this is really, this is applicable for every relationship for managers, for teams, for families is really get to know the people that you're talking about. Get to know what is their preferred style? What is the method they really like? How do they, because the goal is to come to an understanding and so hopefully to produce some change of behavior, right? So we, you know, the goal isn't just to, you know, blame and accuse people. The goal here is to really try to, you know, move the needle and actually produce positive change. So you really want to figure out, and that's kind of like that whole relationship part of the EQ side is get to know the people. Like some people you need to give a lot more encouragement to other people are like, skip the encouragement, just give me the meat, give me the stuff that I need to kind of work on. Some people like it in an email. I've really kind of found the value. Like that's why it's so much of an art and a science, right, to really understand who is that I want to give the feedback to and what it would be the best possible way for me to give that feedback so that they can be the most open to actually hear it. So when you're receiving that assessment to simply ask, how would you like me to give you feedback on these five areas, right? If you are a manager, and I'd love to talk about that other side of the coin because that's one of the most critical functions of a leader is to give effective feedback. And there's a lot of myths and misconceptions around how to appropriately do that. And of course there is an art to this. So for those who have now moved into new leadership situations, we know that avoiding giving feedback leads to dysfunction of a team and can really create a toxic culture. And you're gonna be called upon as you move into a leadership role to give feedback for someone who's underperforming, who missed the mark, who didn't achieve what you had set out to do. So what is a science show and how do we give effective feedback if we're in that leadership role? One of them is making sure like timing is really important. With feedback you wanna make sure certainly that you wanna make sure it's done privately. I literally cringe when I hear around feedback is given in like a team environment. I mean, if it's team based it's different but certainly for a personal performance you wanna make sure it's done privately. You wanna really pay attention to the time of the day, make sure that you actually have time to talk things out. So even if you just wanna make sure that if it's gonna open up more conversation that you're calm, they're calm. So even in the emotional state is actually really important. And then understand who you're giving the feedback to because different generations are gonna want a little different. Traditionals a lot of times like more of the performance review. Like they like to think a little bit more custom, more traditional. Millennials like more informal. They like it more like you're going out for lunch or you're kind of like going for a cup of coffee. Like it's much more informal. It's more a relationship, kind of a mentoring kind of feel. I'm a big advocate and I get mixed, I get mixed feedback on this. I'm a big advocate, let people know what they're doing well first. And this isn't coddling and this isn't babysitting and this isn't, this is just positive reinforcement. Like before you tell a person what they need to work on let them know with what they're doing well. And what you're doing is you're actually reinforcing like keep doing this. This part is awesome. I love this. This part we gotta work on. This part, you know, and so, and then being very specific on what it is that the person actually needs to do. So often like people are like so afraid to give it. They're super vague. And, but people need very specific direction. And especially millennials, you know, for everybody listening, you know, millennials get this terrible reputation that they're difficult to manage. I think I love millennials. They're not like one of my favorite age groups to work with because give them lots of praise, give them very directive specific guidance and they will be so loyal to you. They are fiercely loyal to really great managers, but you do need to be very directive and say specifically what they need to be doing well and really set them up kind of for success. And so, but it does depend on who your audience is because I've done lots of management training and I'll have boomers saying, I don't want any of the positive reinforcement crap. I don't need that. I feel like that's almost a setup. I just give me like more direct. So you do have to get to know, you have to know who is your audience and what is the best way that they're actually going to receive it. That's every boomer I know. Johnny included, like experience. Yeah, yeah. No, honestly, boomers are like, Karen, please do not tell me that positive reinforcement. I can't stand like, but that's your experience. Realize that other people are different. And if the end goal here is for us to really motivate and inspire change, positive change, you've got to understand your team members and what it is that they need it, what needs to happen so that they're best likely to actually listen to actually pay attention to it. I think a big part in our experience, especially with managing millennials is letting them know ahead of time, I would love to give you some feedback and not just scheduling a random meeting at a random time out of the blue and dumping on them. Because there is a mental preparation and some people are going to want it immediately. Some people are going to say, okay, can we do it in the afternoon? Can we do it tomorrow? When I get through this other thing, there is an emotional regulation piece to that feedback and we all receive it somewhat differently. And that's where the art form comes in. But just scheduling a meeting and out of the blue, jumping right into feedback with no context, the other person's not prepared for it, will often time lead to that emotional outburst that we're not really looking for as leaders is not impactful in terms of the behavior change, the goals that we're trying to reach. And the other piece in our feedback that I've noticed is understanding how this piece fits into the bigger whole. Oftentimes when we receive feedback, it can feel like you're on an island and you're being singled out and you're the only one doing something wrong. And as a leader, it's also on you. It's to say, hey, it was my responsibility. I understand that I didn't clarify this in the email that I sent you. I understand that I wasn't specific in the exact time that I needed this. So for future reference, this is what happens and when this happens, this is how the entire goal, group, whatever suffers gets off track. That level of context in you taking responsibility as a leader for the miscommunication, whatever the case may be that led to them maybe feeling like they didn't need to deliver it on time or maybe feeling like it was a little bit looser and more free instead of something they should prioritize, goes a long way to them trusting you as a leader upon receiving that feedback. Absolutely. And that kind of goes to that C part is the communication, which is taking ownership. So leaders that take responsibility and take ownership in their communication, and I love your wording on that. It's something that I actually say a lot with my team. I'll say, you know what, I realized I was not clear enough. I'll say that. I realized that I was not clear enough. Moving forward, I'm going to do ABC. So taking ownership and also clarifying what is the takeaway in any time that we're especially with conflict, if there's not a clear takeaway, we're likely to actually repeat this issue all over again. So that is a really important piece. And by setting that stage, all of a sudden, we have that sense of humility, my three-chair analogy of somebody who actually sits in the middle chair, somebody who actually, you know, the leader that has humility is acknowledging the areas that they could have actually worked on. You're creating now this amazing culture that allows other people to take responsibility as she is well. You know, it seems so simple, but if leaders do not take responsibility, what on earth makes us think that our teams would take responsibility? Like we have to model what we want our teams to do. And part of leadership is the humility piece around acknowledging when we've made things, when we've maybe not done such a great job, we haven't been so clear. And so that all really helps to kind of set the stage and kind of develop that culture. We can all remember as children those moments of do as I say, not as I do instances, which are painful to watch. Well, why did the adults get to do this? Why is it a different set of rules for me? And that happens in that leadership role where they see the leader never taking responsibility, never admitting fault, never understanding or expressing the mistakes that they made. And with that pointed, directed feedback towards team members, of course, they're not gonna wanna put their neck out on the line. They're not gonna wanna put in that extra effort. They're gonna feel that they need to self-sabotage just to preserve themselves in this toxic environment. And that's really the biggest difference between an arrogant leader and a confident leader. Like a lot of people often ask you, like what is really the difference, that differentiating factor? And there's lots, but the biggest one, and I talk about this in my book, The Three Chairs, is the arrogant leader, it's they think they know everything and they tend to blame things when things go down on other people. The middle chair leader, the confident leader, they know a lot, but they also know that they don't know everything. So they're more open for feedback. They're more open to learn and listen to other people and hear from their advisors. And they're more likely to apologize and take ownership because they have humility. Like humility is the difference between confidence and arrogance. And so for anybody who's thinking, I'm not really good at apologizing, I'm not really good at taking ownership, you gotta get over it. If you wanna, if you just, you gotta lean it, you gotta do it anyway. It feels uncomfortable, we gotta do it anyway. There's a lot of things that are really good for us that feel uncomfortable. So we have to learn to just kind of, I'm gonna make the choice to take ownership, even though it feels super uncomfortable and you gotta do it anyway. If you see somebody who's supposed to be this leader and they're refusing to take ownership over a mistake that was completely obvious that they have made, it will only be a matter of time before you become the scapegoat and they throw you under the bus. They may not be doing it now and you might notice that and you're like, well, at least it ain't me. It's gonna be you sooner or later. You need to make some decisions now before it is you. Because when it is you, it's too late. These are topics that Johnny and I are so passionate and excited about. And I realize now we've made some references to the three chairs, but I love if you could just set up this visualization because it is really in the title of the book and it's so key in breaking down all this emotional intelligence that we're talking about. So what are these three chairs and how should we visualize that great effective leader? Yeah, I created three chairs 25 years ago when I started really looking at all the different research around confidence and emotional intelligence with what it is. And I realized it was so powerful but it was sitting on these dusty shelves in university libraries and journals. And I thought, how can I make this come alive? How can I make this really just kind of jump out because it's just so powerful. So I came up with this concept of three chairs. Are either of you visual learners? Yes, big time. Yeah, yeah, you are. Okay, Johnny, are you a visual learner? I would say more auditory. More auditory, okay. So he didn't have his eyes closed while I'm doing this. AJ is gonna be looking at my little. Like my visual. So there you go. I'm off the charts visual too, which is probably why I created it. But basically there was in three chairs and I talked about in the TED Talk but everybody listening, I want you to think to yourself, where do you see yourself sitting in these different chairs? The person who sits in the left chair is what I call the blind attitude. That's the person that kind of really, they put themselves down. They're tough on themselves. They're like an inner critic. This is the person with imposter syndrome. They can look very confident, but their mindset is they're really critical towards themselves. Okay, so that's kind of the insecure leader. Then you've got the one on the right, which is what I call the arrogant leader. They're cocky, they're arrogant. They're very superior. If things are wrong, they're gonna blame it on everybody else. And then you've got the middle chair leader, the person in the middle chair, and that's a confident leader. And that's the person that they have confidence but not arrogance. They know who they are. They know that they're working on themselves. They've got the growth mindset. They have a really healthy attitude, but they also have humility. And so those are the three chairs. And I've taught this to kindergarten students. I've taught this to Fortune 500 CEOs. It's an amazing concept. It's so simple. It's like crazy simple, but the crazy thing about is the research that once you know kind of where you sit, the majority of the time, we're all moving around, but the question I would be asking everybody is where are you seeing yourself sitting the majority of the time and then how does it impact your decision-making? So when we talk about emotional intelligence, the whole book is about emotional intelligence. Somebody who has very high EQ, they're sitting in the middle chair, okay? So the whole book is actually developing the cards, acronym that I was talking about. But once you know kind of where you sit, you can make very well educated guesses on how people make decisions, everything from risk-taking, decision-making, conflict, who they choose as their partner even, like it's crazy to in terms of how they manage stress and boundaries. It's a great simple visual that to help people actually understand where they're seeing what kind of leader are they right now and what they need to do to help themselves move in the middle chair. There's one distinction between that arrogant and humble, confident leader that I wanna point out. And we've talked about this on a previous episode, the power of language and the words that we choose when describing ourselves and our team members. And that's the me versus we dynamic. And that arrogant leader will often take all of the credit and talk about themselves even when there's a team behind them. Johnny nodding his head because this thing is, it gets under my skin so badly. It's nails on a chalkboard. And we had a team member in the past who's no longer with us, who that was his entire MO was constantly me, me, me. Even in situations where he played zero part in the reaching that goal or making that achievement or that accomplishment was always me, me, me. So that is in my mind, one of those clear indicators. If you are sitting with a manager who's making everything about me, me, me and never uses the word we, never elevates the team behind them. And I had the same experience in graduate school with mentors who there's a team in the lab who's actually doing the experiments who's behind them supporting this research and they make it about themselves. So as you move into the leadership role, it's really important that you acknowledge all of the team members that are functioning behind you that have got you on that stage, that have got you promoted, that have allowed you to achieve that success. Really effective, confident leaders know how to acknowledge and share in all of that accomplishment with those team members. Yes. And the interesting thing is they talk about me unless there's a problem and then it changes to plural and it's all about you. You. You are the problem. So it's like the reason this doesn't work is because you plural or singular are actually the problem. And so, you know, it's one of the fastest ways around figuring out with where people sit is in conflict and how do people communicate and what language do they actually use when there's conflict because the person in that right chair, that arrogant chair, they tend to blame things and everybody else. I'm not the problem. You're the problem. We didn't get the goal because of you, right? And so there's a blaming versus the middle chair leader that says, you know, let's reevaluate what our plan was. Let's reevaluate why we did not achieve the goal and what we need to do differently. And so there's a ownership and responsibility and it's a great way of thinking about certainly the team who to hire, you know, once people actually understand the three chairs and then do interviews and you can ask interview questions to help understand with where people are at because as long as you've got something in that middle chair they're gonna be that growth mindset. They're gonna be open to learn. They're gonna be open to taking responsibility. They're gonna be open for that feedback. You're gonna save yourself so much time and energy in any kind of team if you can kind of help if you can be hiring kind of from that middle chair. Not saying that people can't move because you can people are moving from the different chairs all the time but it just, you know, people can change. You just have to really want to change. We can all get in our middle chair but we just have to really want it. Now there's another acronym from the book that I would love for you to unpack and share with our audience and this comes up quite a bit on our show in personal relationships, romantic relationships, family relationships and that's how to effectively draw boundaries. And as a leader, you are going to be drawing boundaries. It is essential to you effectively doing your job in the day to day. So what is this acronym that you have and how can our listeners become more effective at drawing boundaries in their life? So boundaries are part of the, it's part of the tactic around, you know, we think about the cards and that S category that stress and emotion management. So leaders who sit in the middle chair and that can always kind of be your focus and our goal. So leaders that sit in the middle chair, they know how to set boundaries really well and boundaries are easy for some people and super difficult for others. If you're in the left chair, a lot of times they actually have the hardest time with boundaries. Of all three chairs, there's the ones that actually have the hardest time because if they're in the left chair, they want to please people so badly. So they have a very difficult time saying no, they really want to win the approval of other people. So setting a boundary is completely opposite to that. So they tend to say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and then they burn out. And people in the right chair, what they often do is their boundaries, well, sometimes they actually say yes too much but a lot of times they're not considerate of other people's boundaries. That's where I really see it with team. It's like the manager that says, well, of course you're going to stay past five o'clock because I did it for 50 years and now I expect you to do it for 50 years, right? So, and that, okay, talk about generational difference. That is one of the big topics that come up a lot with generations and teams is the boomer that says, if you're not willing to stay past five o'clock, you're not committed. You don't want this badly enough. And the millennial is if you expect me to stay past five o'clock, you're not respecting my boundaries and therefore I don't know if I really want to work here. And so boundaries literally can be the topic that cause whether people stay or they leave. It's really fun. Like once, you know, I work with lots of, I mean, you work with lots of companies. I mean, it's really interesting with the patterns that you actually start seeing. So boundaries are really important for that middle chair because for any high-performing individual and a high-performing team, if you don't take care of those boundaries, you're going to burn out. So it is not a suggestion. It's a requirement for high performance. So how do you do it? There's lots of different ways. But as a team, if I was a manager of a high-performing team, well, I am. So here, one of the things that we will do is we'll talk around, I want to help my team set boundaries. We will set boundaries on what times emails go out. We will set boundaries around when we're supposed to be responding to emails. We will set boundaries around, you know, how much time we're actually taking care, take, you know, time off. There's even a boundary around who's responsible for it. There are emotional boundaries as well as time boundaries, right? So there's, I mean, boundaries is like a huge topic. But if you can kind of think about boundaries is critical for high performance. And so it's learning, what am I going to say yes to with what am I going to say no to? And at the time, some people are going to get upset. That's okay. That's kind of part of life. But we're going to kind of focus on really with what's the most important. And it's hard, but it gets easier the more people actually do it. It's interesting. It creates more freedom for the team to function at their best. And as I was waiting for my mouse to come online, I was flicking through TikTok and I learned a new phrase called quiet quitting. I don't know if you've heard of this. No, I haven't. And it's millennial in Gen Z, this idea that they're not going to quit their job, like outright quit it, but they're going to stop putting in any effort above and beyond what they're asked to do. So no more staying late, no more leaning in, no more hustle grind, all this other stuff. And a good manager with high EQ will recognize this shift. The poor managers aren't going to notice that they're losing an entire generation of the workforce to this concept of just, I'm just going to take my paycheck and I'm going to escape by until someone realizes I'm not performing and I'll deal with the consequences later. That to me signifies that boundaries haven't been drawn in an effective way in a lot of these company cultures. We're asking so much more, this work-life balance is off. And now we're hearing more and more about burnout. We're working with more and more clients who are experiencing it. And I know it's a big part of that recognizing and managing the stress component. So in a high EQ environment and especially a high EQ leader, if you start to recognize team members burning out. So I think a lot of times it's really easy to recognize when we're burning out because the signs and signals are very obvious to us. And sometimes it takes a spouse or friend or family member to recognize it, but often it's difficult to see when team members are burning out or quiet quitting. What have you learned over the years for those leaders who want to keep their team members from burning out or what to do when they recognize team members are starting to burn out? You know, it's a great question. And so there's a few different signs. The first thing is to, you're gonna start seeing a flat energy. So the energy is just not, they're not as engaged. They're there, but they're not really there. They're not coming up with a lot of great ideas. They're kind of like, they're just flat. I call it flat energy. So you're gonna start seeing that. The other big thing is that they might start making mistakes. This is a big piece to actually burn out is that it'll start making just really simple but bad mistakes because they're decision making. They're just not sharp, right? They're kind of like not sharp. They'll probably in terms of like start being absent, they'll start kind of having some more sick days. They might start talking negatively around kind of like just, you know, different things that are actually happening in the office. And so it kind of comes out in different ways for different people, or maybe they just withdraw. Some people just kind of really like what you're saying. They kind of withdraw. You're not seeing it, but the social function is kind of anymore. And I think, you know, for everybody listening, if you were kind of have like one takeaway from our call today, it would be like great managers who sit in that middle chair, they care deeply about their team. They really care for their team. This is not just like a job. This is like, it's like they're almost like a shepherd to their sheep. They are, they take care of their team and they want their team to be balanced and they want their team to thrive and they want their team to be successful. And so when they see their team not setting boundaries and working too late and they see the price tag where they're exhausted or emotional or they're not handling feedback well or they're making mistakes, that's the time as a manager, you will get so much loyalty, especially from the younger generation. If you lean and say, you know, I'm just, I'm concerned. I'm actually concerned with what's happening. What's happening? Like in the last, there could be personal things. We had an employee years ago, we've had an amazing success around managing, hiring millennials and retaining millennials. And one of our employees years ago, she had a hard time setting boundaries. And I remember sitting her down and I said, you know, she's a caring, it's so hard. And I said, I know it's hard for you, but I am deeply concerned. I'm concerned for you. I don't want you to be emailing back at like past five. Like I want to help you set the boundaries to care for yourself and your family, you know? Because that's the thing about boundaries. When we say, if we say yes to everything, we are indirectly say no to other things. We're saying no to our health, right? We're saying no to our family, our spouse, our performance. And you know, for senior leadership teams when I'm coaching them, you know, if they're like, I don't know, but there's like burnout, high performance. All you have to do is look at the science. And if you want a high performing team, you have to set boundaries because people are humans, they're not robots. So they need to protect that emotional energy in order for them to kind of perform. And so the great managers will really kind of lean in and help their team members really learn how to do it and model it. And you know, it's hard, you know, everyone listening, like it's really hard to set boundaries, especially if we're maybe not good at it or we didn't see it modeled growing up. And then we have a manager that's not good at it. So all of a sudden we have this cultural, that basically this unspoken culture is like, they talk about boundaries, but they don't really mean about boundaries. So to really set this up properly, managers, you have to show them how to do it, how to do it. And one of my favorite ways to do this, my favorite way is when I work with senior leadership teams and I explained to the CEO and the senior, this is the science on high performance. If you want to perform at this high level, you have to set boundaries and here's how you do it. And when it comes from the top down and all of a sudden becomes this cultural shift within an organization, those are my favorite kind of clients. Because you can see it, all of a sudden spouses start getting the attention, kids start thinking like, wow, Dad, you're not so stressed out as before, right? They're starting to go to like the soccer game. And they actually, and then because they feel so filled up, then they kind of have more burst of energy at the beginning. And so it has this massive domino effect, but culturally it's so hard for so many of us. So it does, the more that can be injected within cultures and companies, the better. There's no intentionality to a lot of the tasks and decision-making that they're doing. And I think that also contributes to that burnout. If you had a why there that was important to, if you were making decisions based on your values, well, then you know you're doing something and there's a benefit to that, to why you're doing it. It enhances life, you're engaging in something that's important to you. You know you're gonna feel better afterwards. That makes setting up boundaries to do those things that much easier. But if you don't know why, and you're like, well, then it becomes, well, why not? And if it's why not, then you've opened yourself up to doing a bunch of things that you don't need to be doing that is taking time, effort and energy away from you. And the why is so, I mean, I love Simon Sinek's work and I just love the focus on the why and the purpose. Again, that's another big value-based for the millennials. They have to understand what their purpose is, what their meaning is. But for anybody who is hesitant around boundaries, it feels awkward, it feels uncomfortable, it feels like you're not being a good employee. The why is look at the science and the research and the book I talk about a lot of the data around high performers that boundaries, period. That's how they do it. And you can set the boundaries different. It doesn't have to be the boundaries have to be like nine to five. Depending on the organization, the type of culture, we're with companies, we work with companies around the world and so you've got different time zones. So sometimes boundaries look like working from eight to 12 and again from like seven at night to like 10 o'clock, right? Depending on the time zones. And also, different people will have different kind of boundaries. Sometimes they're like, okay, you know what? I'm good to kind of put in longer hours in the weekday but weekends I'm out, I'm done, right? So I think, again, thinking about a great manager and developing a high performing team, talk to your team around, let's talk about boundaries. Let's talk about what's the benefit? What's the benefit when we actually start setting boundaries? And how can we kind of help each other so that we're all protecting our boundaries and the why to Johnny's point, the why is because we're gonna perform higher and we're gonna have lower stress. That's why with the boundaries. So higher performance, lower stress, everybody wants to do this, the sequence boundaries and then means you're gonna produce this higher produce better work as well as you're gonna have a healthier life outside of work in terms of your relationship and with your kids if you've got them. It benefits right across the board but it was really interesting. I'm working with a company in Alabama right now and when I got the entire team to kind of work on their boundaries, a lot of them said, Karen, it sounded so good until I started practicing it and man, was it hard? It was hard because it's so ingrained in us but then once we got a few days in and then we started receiving the benefits and then kids started saying, wow, mom, you're like a new person. Why are you so calm? You're not so stressed out. And I was able to go to my first kids baseball game. Also when we start receiving the benefits of the boundaries, then we get hooked. And I often tell people it takes usually about two to three weeks. Two to three weeks of really sticking to it. Then you can see the boundaries and then people get hooked on it. We love asking every guest what their X factor is. What do you think makes you unique and extraordinary, Karen? I think my X factor, I've been told this by lots of people. My X factor is my expertise is wide and it's deep. Like, look how we talked today, right? We talked about emotional intelligence and leadership development, but we're also talking about families and kids and parenting. So I've been doing this for 25 years. And so the fact that I can talk about family systems and organization systems and how they're all interconnect and then we can go deep, you know? And I mean, we could have talked for like another 10 hours, right? I mean, like there's just so much intent that we can keep going with. So I think that it's, I don't, I haven't met anybody else who does what I do that I'm a leadership and relationship expert. And so, and it's fun for me because when I work with business leaders, you know, we'll talk, you know, for half an hour about business and managing millennials. And by the way, can we talk about my wife? And cause I'm not understanding my 14 year old daughter. I'm like, sure. And so, and so, you know, because it's all, it's all part of the same toolkit. It's just in a different, in a different way. And so for me, I just, I think that's what's made me unique. And it's just something that I absolutely, and I love people and I love helping people really make positive changes. So I think that'd be my answer. Thank you for joining us. And we'll link everything up in the show notes, but where can our audience find out more about your free quiz and assessment and all the other great stuff you're doing? Awesome, thanks so much. So the best would be go to our website, which is www.dkeleadership.org, the case stands for Dr. Karen. And then on the site, you're gonna see all the freebies. You're gonna see the leadership EQ scorecard. Like I said, print it, give it to your team. You'll see the free parent report card, which is a really fun resource. You'll see kind of a link to my TED Talk that I did about the three chairs. We just hit half a million in the last three months. We just actually just got word yesterday, we are thing number 18 globally right now in the top TED TED Talk since this year, which has been really exciting. So that's a great free resource. You can actually also teams can actually watch the TED Talk and then we have free discussion questions. Again, what we wanna do is inspire into meaningful conversations, right? So people can watch the TED and you can actually watch it with your family and we've got the discussion questions on our website. And then there's also a link to my book. You can go to Amazon as well to get the three chairs. Hopefully people listening are feeling inspired and a lot more equipped and educated to take this to another level. And that's what I'm really passionate about. Us as well. Thank you again for joining us. Thank you. Thank you so much.