 Okay, welcome. We'll go ahead and call the September 1st meeting of the Longmont Historic Preservation Commission to order Can we have the roll please? Commissioner Sibley here Commissioner Hardee's Commissioner Lane here Commissioner Jacobi Council member Rodriguez here. Thank you Thank you. We do have a quorum We will move to well, I would move to meet approval of the August 22 minutes, but I don't believe we have a Quorum of members present for that meeting. We only have three so I think we'll We'll defer approval of these August 4th minutes until next session Okay, then report from the chair. I'll be brief just Make a note that the HBC did have a joint session with City Council on August 16th to review some Thoughts and considerations for Code changes Relative to historic preservation and that is an ongoing discussion. So That is something that we are working through and and we appreciate the staff and and City Council's willingness to To sit down with us and hear our perspectives That's all I have communications from HPC staff liaison all right So we as let's see the Monday following our August meeting. I believe it was we had a We met with the Parks and Recreation Advisory Board to as part of their Tour of their open spaces so that they could take a look at the Dickens barn Property on the as late and drive prop at visit was late and drive property They will be discussing that as part of their board meeting on September 12th so and potentially taking action on Whether they would like to acquire that property as that development project moves forward We are still in the review process for that particular project So the applicant is working through some of the economics right now just because costs keep going up Otherwise That is my primary report I will note we do have a number of members of the community here this evening who will be speaking about a project for which we have a neighborhood meeting for a possible development project in the bond farm area and there is a There's a historic farmhouse on that property that the neighbors are interested in talking to the Commission about so Just wanted to give everyone a heads up as far as why we have some of these folks in the audience with us today So that said I will turn it over to Glenn to see if he has any additional comments No, I don't other than It can't be a discussion on the project, but certainly you can hear their comments Okay, thank you Commissioners any questions for staff at this point? No, okay All right Thanks, Steph. We will move ahead to the public invited to be heard So I will I've got a list here in front of me. I will call on members of the audience that have signed up When you come up to the podium, please state your name and your address and Well, you'll have three minutes for your comments The first speaker is Catherine Hyatt. I have a handout may I pass that out first? Sure So I can get started while that is being passed out. My name is Catherine Hendricks. I live at 133 Grant Street Which is just behind the bond farm property. I Write a history of Colorado State Historical Fund grants for a historical building in North Boulder and As one of the members of the neighborhood of the bond farm. I am very invested in Trying to save this property So I'm speaking on behalf of a group of our neighbors We're very concerned that this historical building is likely going to be torn down on the last page of that handout You can see that there's a proposed plan from the developer I've put stars on the map to show approximately where that house and the barn are There's a lot of information on that fact sheet I've based it loosely on the historical designation application because it seems to be the relevant information But I'd like to just highlight a couple of things for you The property was originally the DC Donovan brickyard The DC Donovan house on Pratt Street has already been designated as a local landmark in the city The house itself was built it appears in 1900 by the DC Donovan family and then moved to the bond farm property The so the DC Donovan family is pretty significant to Longmont's history and On that farm Bob and Irene Bond spent there pretty much their entire life there over 65 years of marriage It was a poultry farm and a dairy farm at various points and I think history so often overlooks the contributions of women, but Irene Bond was really significant to the community She went back to get her LPN degree after her children graduated from college and then dedicated her life to Serving fellow mastectomy patients So she would visit them provide the physical care that they weren't necessarily getting because there weren't follow appointments for physical therapy From the doctors at that time She was honored for the service by several organizations including the American Cancer Society So I think Irene Bond was actually a really significant figure in Longmont's history as well So we're asking you if you can review this fact sheet and hopefully get involved to help us save the save these Beautiful historical buildings. We have some other members of our group have some more specific requests In this time We're hoping with your involvement. We can at least prevent the demolition from happening soon so that more research can be done So we can see if this is a building that we can landmark with or without the developer's consent. Ideally, we would do it with their consent Ideally we will save the buildings all together We know our neighborhood is designated as an area of change. So we're not trying to prevent change or growth We are well aware that that's gonna happen and we embrace that But we're hoping that it can happen in a way that is going to respect the history of the neighborhood And preserve the the neighborhood's namesake the bond farm house and barn Thank you. Okay Next speaker would be Chris Conklin My name is Chris Conklin. I live at 234 Francis Street, and I'm in the bond farm neighborhood And I would like to direct the committee if you would to take action tonight to inform the City planner to educate the developer of the of the bond farm about the tax advantages of preserving of a landmark designation for the bond farm It's a win-win situation for everybody really I mean we as a neighborhood would get the Historic designation and the developer could get the tax credits So that would be yeah, that's probably it Thank you very much Thank you Okay, next up in public invited. We heard would be Jerry Walther. No worries. You don't have to Okay, next then would be Bob McLaughlin My name is Bob McLaughlin. I live at 620 Emory Street, and I'm speaking tonight on behalf of the historic east side neighborhood I watched the tape of the August 16th study session between HPC and Council Hennis our neighborhood supports the lateral move of HPC code into the land development code title 15 We support strengthening the demolition order ordinance including a section on demolition by Nicolette and We support neighbor ad use in our neighborhood that are designed to echo the themes of our pre 1940 architecture Hennis concerned about several issues that came up in that meeting one is creating historic preservation Overlay Preservation overlays that are one lot in size. We believe this is completely unworkable and leads to a hodgepodge in the neighborhood design guidelines that apply only to HPOs are unacceptable and We do not believe that ad use should be exempt from design guidelines. They can be accommodated just like every other structure What do we want in the historic east side a mechanism that establishes a conservation overlay district that applies to the entire Residential neighborhood all homes would be treated equally it protects the continuity of the view from the street front Elevations remain additions and ad use are located in the rear It provides flexibility to reconfigure housing to meet a family's changing needs new construction should echo the architectural patterns from our early development and it should foster cooperation among neighbors Rather than creating animosity due to different rules for different plots Hps the Hennep proposal that has been handed out to you tonight was submitted to the city a year ago This proposal is not targeted a historic preservation Instead it far fosters neighborhood conservation through land use guidelines It would apply to all properties owned RSF within historic east side neighborhood It does not conflict conflict with long months of order historic preservation code or create additional work for HPC Except for historically designated properties reviews will be done by staff This proposal does not create new or more restrictive measures from the mid 80s until 2018 The RLE zone covered the same land area and required that new development reflect the established patterns in the neighborhood It has only been since 2018 that our neighborhood has had no architectural guidelines This proposal builds on the RLE concept by identifying specific criteria that foster a sense of place It allows great flexibility and accommodates the existing patterns I know of no properties within the existing east side built prior to the 1940 where the architecture does not fall within these guidelines the proposal set Expectations I believe that this document has been given to ADU applicants during pre application conferences If I might just finish you can finish As a result the last two ADU projects in the neighborhood have been follow have followed these guidelines And have had strong support from Hanna these guidelines have proven to be an effective approach. Thank you very much. Thank you Okay Next is Miss Sharon O'Leary Good evening HPC Sharon O'Leary 534 Emory Street co-chair of the historic east side neighborhood I'm here tonight to oh gosh trying to cut me off already You know Did I overstay my welcome? One can only hope Somebody run a timer behind me. I just don't trust them Okay, well at least I got the beginning out of the way start I'm here tonight to address three things first the proposed ADU that you will review tonight Although cars and garages were not built when this historically designated home was the homeowners Outstanding plan integrates all historical aspects needed to blend the presently awkward garage into a timely sensitive structure Supporting an ADU into an historically designated home. This is exactly what the historic east side neighborhood is striving for We appreciate the thoughtful time consideration and expense that that homeowner put into their plan We strongly support designs that are sensitive to long months oldest neighborhoods integrity We hope that you would support a project like this Next I am greatly concerned about Hanna still not having a conservation overlay zone as promised The reason the historic east side neighborhoods is the largest intact neighborhood in the city of longmont is because of our 30 year prior zoning During that time the west side had different zoning hence um a different look and not an intact neighborhood If the commission city planners and city council try to come up with a one size fits all for both neighborhoods It will not work It's like trying to design a glove that fits both the right hand and the left hand. It will not work So please move forward with the original Overlay plans that were submitted to the city from the historic east side neighborhood as just a starting block You don't have to recreate the wheel Finally, I'm just checking in on the progress regarding demolition code and discussions on demolition by neglect If needed, I would request that you meet a little longer Or maybe have a hpc retreat to create the groundwork for quicker and thoughtful process I honestly appreciate everything you do It just seems like maybe there's not enough time and carving out a retreat might help Move some things forward, but I appreciate what you do and welcome councilman rodriguez Thank you Thank you That's all I had on my list. Is there anyone else in the audience that would like to come up, uh, please Just come up and state your name and address Hello, uh, my name is john lachlan. I live at 220 Sherman street and uh, as the commission is working to uh preserve the historic nature of the buildings and community I would like to ask that they consider also the uh temporary vinyl banners and structures at the west side tavern so some of those structures which have which are deemed temporary have been up for a couple years and Are say contributing to some of the traffic issues But also that I would say that they Detract from the historical nature of the buildings and neighborhoods, so I'd ask you to take them into consideration. Thank you Thank you Anyone else Seeing none, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. Thank you all for your comments and for for coming down here this evening Okay, uh, I probably should have done this at the very beginning, but um, we have two items on Our agenda for public hearings Um, I'd like to propose that we switch the order of the agenda as I understand it our second one is going to be a smaller um, so I would propose by motion that we switch the order and make The our cullson farm our second item and 329 5th av are first Okay All right moved and seconded moved by commissioner jacobi seconded by commissioner hardy's all in favor I'm all right Passes unanimously so we'll move ahead to 329 5th av Um certificate of appropriateness from what I now understand to just be limited to porch alterations Yes, so just as an update originally this certificate of appropriateness addressed porch alterations as well as construction of a new accessory dwelling unit and garage The garage is still in the works There are some potential design changes That are under consideration as we Resolve some possible conflicts between historic preservation code as well as the accessory dwelling unit codes So zoning and historic preservation staff. We're all cut We're going to have a meeting of the mines next week and figure out how we can move this forward But we didn't feel comfortable bringing the garage to the commission With changes that had not been seen yet. So tonight we're going to ask that you only um address the porch alteration At 329 5th avenue. I'm going to go through the Go through, you know, what they're looking to do as well as our staff recommendation I will ask the applicant to come up and speak about What they're proposing as well So this property is located at the southeast inner corner of emerson and 5th avenue It is a single family house. There is currently an existing Single car single story garage at the rear of the property emory does say emerson. I'm sorry It's been a long week. Sorry So the request is to replace this. So this is the hs web home. It was built in 1907 It was designated a local landmark in 2019 They are requesting to replace non-historic deteriorating porch columns and railings That were installed probably some time in the 50s or 60s They're the kind of curly queue cast iron variety With wood columns in a knee wall consistent with the original original historic style The original columns were round and slightly tapered They are proposing square columns that are consistent with the overall vernacular style of the home Staff does recommend approving the porch alterations as proposed Um at this point, I'm going to let the applicant Mr. Stone, would you like to speak about your um about the the railings and The condition and the style that they currently are in and so I have a few of your slides if you want to Good evening. My name is tim stone and I do live at 329 5th avenue Been there just shy of four years and our goal when we bought the home was to honor the heritage of the house and try to preserve it Pretty much as it as the original architecture and one of the things that stood out to us immediately was the rod iron railing in the front I'm in preparation for um our application. I did a little bit of work on the front porch and mostly because we recognize that the the one of the posts was Penetrating the the support system on the roof as you can see there on the slide on the right And it's beginning to fail and just below That at the base you can see that the railing is is rusted deteriorated significantly and the cause of that is that the previous homeowner had Overlaid a new decking over the original decking And it was these posts are encapsulated now And so when moisture Collects around it. It has no way to dry and so rust begins to develop and As best I can tell most of them are starting the rust. This is the worst one right at the very front of the house at the top of the stairs Whatever the decision is here in terms of Meeting the Historical appropriateness This railing system has to be Replaced in one fashion or another the roof is sagging The front porch does have some sag to it and so Our goal at this point since we know some work has to be done is to try to preserve As much as possible the original architecture of this house Which has been our goal from day one And in fact the house was recently painted. It's now white, which was its original color as we know it Probably seven colors later I am a licensed general contractor of the city of longmont and I do intend to do the work myself The integrity of the knee wall and new columns will be significantly greater than The existing one now intend to put in six inch douglas fur posts And reinforced underneath if needed. We won't do any demolition until Our request has been approved Happy to answer any questions you have there's another slide there It's just a kind of a crude rendering of of what this would look like The knee wall would be 24 inches high And a new handrail would be built as well The siding would be would match the house that cedar lap siding that you're looking at Okay, thank you. Any commissioner questions for the applicant? Go there we go Red means go So I'm glad you're you're preserving the historic integrity of the home and being a contractor you would know better than I I was just curious that looks like this photo the original porch had Round columns and you're thinking of putting in square ones. Is there a big cost difference or why why the change? There is a cost difference if we were to do round ones we'd likely Try to source them as as original solid wood, which is expensive and very difficult to find I would not want to put in Replicas and fiberglass or something of that nature Um, it's not uncommon to see the square posts. Um, they're prevalent throughout the the east side So While it doesn't take it back to its original design It gets it very close and consistent with what we see in the neighborhood. Thank you. I did show some other homes Or not Okay, that's fine Yeah, there are a couple of homes on call here just around the corner from us that I had presented and taken pictures of that show The type of square posts that we'd like to use other questions from the commission I'm I'm okay with the square posts and I my only opinion might be it looks like there's um Like you've got black and white And this is that is that what you're thinking on that or is that just like the drawing on the side there? well, the house does since it's been repainted the trim on the on the windows and The eaves and so forth we did accent in black and so we just want to continue with that theme But the predominant color of the knee wall is white And the current railing is black completely black the wrought iron All right. Thank you. It's also very difficult to paint Well, I will say and this is really just a like a style opinion But if it was me I would probably just do those columns one color or either black or white Oh, I'm sorry. I let me let me uh, let me address that the columns would be white completely The only rates. Yeah, you see lines there only because They would blend in with the rest of the house. So yes To answer your question the columns will be 100 white. Okay. Sounds good. Thanks. Any other questions? I just have one You are not you're only seeking a certificate of appropriateness. You're not asking for any tax credit Dollars or anything like that is for the application. It's not necessary for this project. Okay If you were that would probably push you into You know more of a more of a push towards the original round columns and more of a restoration Yeah, but if you're not then there's a little less restriction Certainly associated. Okay Um, great. If there are no other questions for the applicant, I would open up the public hearing portion Thank you. Yep. Thank you Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak to this project? Yes, ma'am Please again state your name and address when you begin Sarah Levison 634 emory. I'm a neighbor about a block and a half away And I have four columns for him that are round No, we um, we were in a similar situation Where the original porch on our house was the front porch was torn off Because it had rotted and they had only left the side porch. So when we did an exterior Painting and we didn't do a certificate appropriateness or anything We had new columns fabricated Um out of washington state that were the same Or nearly the same as the others But I have four columns and storage in my garage that I'd be willing to sell you And they even have, you know Actually you could um after we ordered um our new ones that were almost the same shape and size we found out that the um hardwood store On just off the south main near the railroad tracks. They would fabricate them for um about the same amount of money So um, you got probably four and you need what two more, right? Three more. So yeah, you got more than half, but we'll talk after the meeting But I would advocate, you know going to the round columns. They're not hard to source Thank you Sharon o'leary 5 34 emory. Um, I'm right up the street and the house next door to me also 5 30 emory. We all have round columns On emory street any porch has round columns on emory street. So I would suggest um going for the tax credit if money's the problem but investigate further because It would it would replicate the authentic home and that sounds like what the owner is striving for But even more so it would fit in with the integrity of at least that block if not the whole neighborhood. Thank you Thank you Anyone else in the audience that would like to speak on this Agenda item No, we'll go ahead and close the public comment Uh, so I will Open it up for discussion among the commissioners Request the there we go. All right, the mic should be on Does that work? Okay I was I was just saying that after listening to the comments and looking at this more carefully that Unless it is a really big difference in cost, you know It clearly would be a better solution to to go with the round columns if if they can be obtained Hopefully it's not you know a huge huge difference in cost but For the sake of the home and and the neighborhood and your own property value. I I'd say that's a better choice Any other comments among commissioners I don't uh for myself Given where they're what they're asking for I don't necessarily think the square is inappropriate. I wouldn't I wouldn't um I wouldn't deny a certificate of appropriateness for a square column in this particular case I can understand the the round being a A better choice. Uh, and so I'm comfortable with an approval with a recommendation to use round if possible um For my sake I'm just looking at the picture of 437 Collier the This cute cottage that's up a couple of houses from mine and it's got square columns And uh, it's a beautiful porch and I'm questioning whether it was rebuilt My porch I'm on Collier as well. Uh has round columns, but it was rebuilt And I believe my original porch had square columns So I I'm with you Steve. I I don't see it as an overwhelming You know, it's not a game changer to put square columns on but Uh, I I agree with the rest of you and that Round columns are original round columns who are predominant on emery. I would prefer round columns And commissioners simply any comments or if not, we'll Yeah, I um, I know I've seen both I I mean when I look at it, I mean again, I'd probably prefer the round But I'm not opposed to the the the smaller square Um, especially when you look at 437, they're a little Less chunky. Um, then some of the more modern things that I'm seeing happening And so I'm thinking if they're in proportions similar to that They kind of lend themselves to the to that same look that the round had Okay, can I get a motion? I would move that we approve certificate of appropriateness for the design changes for the porch With a recommendation to consider circular columns I would second that Okay, so we have a motion on the floor by commissioner jacobi and seconded by commissioner sibley all Those in favor say aye All right, no any opposed none. So Motion passes unanimously for the certificate of appropriateness for the porch only and we'll look forward to seeing the The other part of this come back as you have a Well, what I might suggest is maybe you continue the portion of the garage to your next regular meeting So that you don't need so we don't need to advertise and notice and everything again. Okay okay All right, so I'll just go ahead and move that we That we do table the second half of this the accessory dwelling unit to the next hpc Okay, do I have a second? Okay, so that's moved by commissioner lane seconded by commissioner jacobi all those in favor I Opposed none. All right motion is unanimous. We will table the second half of that till our uh, october Hpc, thanks So from a process standpoint if you're continuing a public hearing it does not need to be Um, it will be an agenda item on this meeting, but we already did notice this public hearing So from a procedural standpoint, we would not need to notice it They have the conversation here. Yeah, sorry. Yeah Um, well happy. I'm happy to clarify after the hearing Okay, if you have questions So we'll move on to uh our other public hearing item their colson farm 1901 south main We have a staff report for that. I do great This is a um This relates to an item that a certificate of appropriateness that this commission approved back in april of 2021 This is a two-part application this would be an amendment to the landmark status to um Basically take the landmark status and apply it specifically to the historic structures rather than the property as a whole I'm going to we'll get into the rationale for that momentarily and then also a certificate of appropriateness for design guidelines for um New development on this property as was the condition of the certificate of appropriateness granted back in april of 2021 So in terms of vicinity map this property is just southwest of the intersection of south main street and pike road It is an approximately one-acre site. It's a little actually a little bit more than one acres um The time of the historic survey it consisted of six structures um a farmhouse a garage a barn a shed chicken coops and storage buildings. Um the farmhouse which was built in 1910 was um Designed the classic cottage style. It was designated a historic landmark in 1997 So as I mentioned in april 2021 there was a certificate of appropriateness taken up by this um commission It was a certificate of appropriateness to move the historic structures to the eastern portion of the property To facilitate development of the western portion of the property A condition of that particular certificate of appropriateness approval was that the Applicants submit a subsequent coa with more details about the proposed new structures As part of this application the applicant has submitted Proposed design guidelines for new residences for hpc approval. The applicant will be going through their These guidelines in more detail um, so in terms of some procedural items the applicant is pursuing a separate application For development to replat this property into six parcels the landmark status Applies to the property as a whole as opposed to the individual structures So in discussions with staff as far as how to keep You know the plat is clean as possible Um for future future title search You know for future title search and clean title options Um Felt it was appropriate to modify the landmark status so that it specifically applied to the historic structures As opposed to the full one-plus acre parcel So since I know we have some commissioners who were not here in in april of 2021 This was the approved location. This map is let me make this a little bigger. I just realized that Give me a second all right, so You can see on this particular map Shows the original locations and where they would be moved. So basically there would be A fairly large parcel known as lot six Adjacent to main street and that is where the historic properties the historic farm properties would be relocated The farmhouse would stay in its original setting As far as I can let's see yes, um, and then The applicant would replat the property here The proposed this is the proposed plat. We're still working through some of the details of it But so the draft plat you can see the larger lot six and that is where The historic structures would be moved as approved in the certificate of appropriateness from april 2021 Um, and then the parcel property would be replatted to include five additional lots So staff is recommending approval of the design guidelines proposed by the applicant Consistent with condition number one of the certificate of appropriateness that was approved on april 8th 2021 this packet the COA package from This particular meeting in 2021 was included with the overall package for your background information We also recommend approval of the request to amend the landmark designation to clarify that the designation applies to the historic structures That would then be moved to lot six of the proposed plat Again, this would this is essentially a clarification and a cleanup amendment for the for the landmark status With that, let me get to the applicant Get mr. Bestall's information pulled up here Full screen. There we go Jack i'm gonna turn this over to you Good evening. Good to see some of you again. Good to see the new people as well Jack best all ever sent the owner of this and i'm also the planner on the project um I have a little bit of overlap with jennifer's presentation but we I think that some of this is background Um, that maybe is useful just to create some context This was a slide that we looked at and discussed in 2021 um, we were looking for a way to preserve and sustain the buildings and to create kind of a base for that with New new development if you will and an HOA that would Be able to support that so we talked about intermingling or clustering And that was accepted with a yes and You know just in terms of our informal discussion that evening The relocation is that an option that was a yes And then is increasing to six from two residential units acceptable That was kind of except it was also a yes Obviously conditioned on how it was done um, and then what about contemporary forms? I some of you may remember I was bold enough to bring forward a robert venturi home that he had designed for his mother And there was some frowning there was some smiling, but there was some frowning as well But kind of the you know, how far can you go? Especially when this is kind of the trick the transition parcels between the Carlson farm house and prospect, you know where I have a lot of respect for the design review committee there and so forth But it's a little bit of it anything goes and there's bright colors right next to this parcel on the on the west side So, you know, we've been kind of grinding on this to figure out what to do Um, and we knew we needed to come back to you discuss this and we we do request that you approve The two the two issues we have this evening before you So, you know new buildings should not compete or contrast dramatically and be of compatible scale So our purpose is to reconfigure the historic area. I think of it as the area of lot six but but the Tagging the historic buildings. I think is the key because this the The historic designation shouldn't apply to the new structures And there's a series of things that could occur that would really be difficult legally etc And I so I appreciate your consideration of that the design guidelines really create a framework And we're trying to establish We have not yet had a builder step up and take this on it would be nice to walk in here and show you contemporary farm house Or, you know, something that really Fits and there are some really good designs out there, you know a contemporary so-called contemporary farmhouse type structures, for example But we don't have that and and what we want to do is establish this with this plat process We are now going through so the design guideline approach is what we're presenting to you this evening So, you know, they shouldn't compete or contrast as we as we discussed The reconfiguration, of course, was to was to move these buildings over to the Carlson house The diagram that Jennifer showed Was the one with the arrows that I had originally and that was they said no to that And that's okay. No, but they said no No, these need to be kind of in context to each other when they do slide over and so This is the historic survey and how where things are located and the only So we are moving these In the plan They're moving directly to the east and there's there's a slight The only one that's not being moved is the shed and it would not remain To be as they say totally transparent. I can show you why this PD that we had an amendment of the final development plan that was It was approved and we worked through so that we Do have the ability to have six residential units there one of those being the Carlson house And you can see the the the historic buildings here in dashed lines That's that it's actually a part of that graphic This is a a diagram that Shows the existing condition that you just saw in the survey And you know, there's a driveway for example that goes out here now that Will not be allowed because of its distance to Main Street. Here's the Carlson house The shed is right here And the what we're proposing in the plant Is this So this shows the buildings moved over in this with the same orientation with the exception of that small shed And then this shows the the five lots that make up the for the sixth total these would front towards Pike Just like the Carlson house fronts towards main And then we're we're servicing these with access from the alley And we're working with the fourth filing To have access from satisfaction circle We also There are some things to work out as Jennifer mentioned But that's really the the concept for the plan And and how this fits together Mentioning it earlier. Here's the bar now. Here's what's going on over at Prospect and the the bright building is now just behind this over at Prospect So the transition is important I really like this speaking of round columns. I like This particular black and white photo that's taken from the survey before this porch was enclosed You know, it's interesting that the survey says that it's classic cottage And then that's crossed out and there's a pencil penciled in classic revival So I prefer to go with revival, but I think both are appropriate This is an example of a probably what I used what we looked at earlier Or in our previous meeting. It's really an exemplar of classic revival, which You know is close But this certainly is a little more pristine. It's had a lot of work done on it. I'm sure Um, so in putting that together that's the the background for being able to Isolate the historic designation to lot six to the historic buildings And then we put together a set of design guidelines Um, and and you know, you have this we don't have to read it word for word, but essentially What we're trying to do is derive from the buildings that are there predominantly the the farmhouse itself And look at a design that provides scale and features compatible with historic buildings And we had a really I thought useful discussion at our last meeting where you know, we're not trying to replicate But we're also not trying to go so far away that we get out of scale And these are the buildings that we're talking about that were in the survey that we've discussed earlier So there's really two sets of traditional compatible types and derivative types and styles that I I drew on to That would be useful as establishing a framework for a future builder designer of a custom home in either case The national style a little less known It's uh, it reminds me of a two-story prairie as a matter of fact But it has the scale and the features and the massing. I think that would be appropriate the bungalow I don't think you know that one's probably at the heart of it um Another traditional style the colonial revival if done simplistically Would have the capability of of matching up well with the Cottage or revival style of the carlson craftsman, I think should also be Another example are in the in the design guidelines and then we looked at derivatives And the derivatives really are you know, you've seen these before the modern farmhouse the one on the on the lower Is very similar This also is in a good example modern craftsman has taken on different forms, but Can be a useful example This is the modern salt box much like the barn this happens to be in scandinavian example But there's many that are like this and then The salt box also can take on this where they've added the piece to the old barn. There's more windows in this form But it would be I think compatible so We believe these these the the design guidelines Really match up with the applicable standards of the commission and we ask for For your approval of the of the guidelines And the historic designation Being isolated to the buildings on lot six Uh through you know a certificate of appropriateness and be glad to answer questions or discuss Thank you, uh questions from commissioner for the applicant they Chairman they must feel really positive about that I do have a couple of questions, um And while others are ruminating One of my questions was uh clarifying exactly where the lot line Well, I guess I'll back up for a second. The original proposals showed four lots four new lots plus the What are we calling the conservation piece? Yes And this proposal does show five now there was discussion at that april 21 hearing about a possible hd ADUs are in at the barn that is now off the table Yes, or yes. Yeah Yes, uh, I think you're correct in all those comments What happened was we had really hoped to hang on to this driveway and um So by the removal of the driveway There was additional room for a lot And that we feel is supportive and really creates a nice series of porches towards pike and The fifth lot if you will of the new homes would be taking the place of Any idea of an ad you and the barn which I know the commission was opposed to well Not I don't know that it was in an outright apposal, but just a cautionary tale to as to what How that could go Um, so my follow-up is since you brought up the driveway. That was another question It's it's not clear because the the plat doesn't really show it but the In the presentation that we reviewed back in april that back line of the existing house lot was The eastern edge of the driveway. Is that still Where that is in other words the I'd like to know that the lot the original lot didn't get any smaller It did not it's very close You're speaking of the west property line. Correct. Yeah, it's very close to that It was these we held to a fairly narrow standard You know 51 feet 52 in order to make this as as whole as possible It does suffer a little bit from the setback You know, there's a fairly substantial setback from main street And right now in order to get water and sewer in here and a few other things There's some discussion of brought bringing the alley all the way through We know buildings can't be placed in this area, but we're We're pretty much opposed to the idea of an alley being a everyday occurrence on You know as a part of that so and we like to maintain that as part of the carlson Lot so but that's something that's more a part of the the civil engineering aspect of the plat It is I guess but I but I did want to bring that up because that was the other thing that that showed up this this 30 foot easement And I'm wondering how absolute That is because of course We can say it's not our intention or desire to have an alley through there and then all of a sudden there's an alley through there And that lot just got about a third Narrower than it was when we said we could push all these buildings onto it Even though we didn't really love the whole idea Now we're losing potentially another third of the lot. So that is a concern that I have Chairman lane we share that concern We did not submit it In that way we what we submitted was an easement along the back of the of the lots for utilities in a driveway And we submitted you can see the kind of the gray blue drive there We ran it right to the edge of that lot So the lot itself maintained its integrity I'm I've told jennifer I'm gonna we're going to go back and try to discuss this with public works And uh, we think it's the same difference But it has a whole lot more if we are able to restrict the the daily It makes a tremendous difference for the integrity of the calls of the calls on farmhouse lot and You know, if you wanted to approve the historic designation You know compactness with a condition like that it would certainly help the applicant's case Okay, fair enough. I probably have another question or two, but I won't hog the mic and um other commissioners mission simply so just to um, can you clarify so um, so We're not wanting the drive or the alley to go all the way through So if it doesn't go through then there's just that small section that is driveway Is that what I'm understanding or am I missing part of this? I'm sorry um um Commissioner sibling when you say that small part are you speaking up to this area here? Or this stub here Yes Right. I think there's a need to have a driveway You know a driveway for this lot And the way that the historic buildings You know, we're preferred to stay in in relation to each other This is I think this you know, this is the equipment shed Which is like a large long carport essentially So I think that accessing through this area By the owner of the Carlson farm slot six Certainly would happen, but there's also opportunities here for a lot and water and sewer will come in this way Water is looping down that from a utility perspective. It's looping So we've been able to really do a cooperative effort with the fourth filing and their current efforts. So um But but my my only thought is that this doesn't need to be an alley onto this It can be a driveway and this could be stubbed You know, this could be even an eva an emergency vehicle access And and this is not This distance is less than what Fire code would require they wouldn't allow something over 150 feet Well, we're you know, we're 112 feet or something from center here So that was our goal was to To get proper access but not but to try to maintain the integrity of the Carlson plot as much as possible Yeah And they're they're alternate. So this actually shows A bigger part of mr. Chair. I wasn't trying to jump in again This shows really what we we proposed And what has been suggested is no easement About the same distance but moving the road down towards this property line But having it come all the way through And so that's that's a discussion point that we we're going to take up with public works And planning other commissioner questions My other I don't get a couple others Back in april we had talked about this this eastern junk as a conservation area and When we're now talking about Moving the designation the landmark designation from the property to just the buildings I guess I my thinking was that we we might end up with a a conservation easement on lot six or some way to protect any further Like Any further? Yeah, well just any further Changes significant changes to that property, right? So we landmark these buildings Uh And we don't really address the property and we've art and we've allowed this to happen You know could somebody come in and say well, you know, it's landmark But I want would like to do xyz so I'm wondering if we if the if the applicant would be Open to a conservation easement on lot six once these buildings are moved there maybe Conservation easements have their own In this commission knows that more I'm but We are We were thinking that lots six would be designated as the historic landmark The local historic landmark designation. We weren't thinking of individual buildings staff has presented this as individual buildings So I would you saw I was kind of slurring it together So we definitely think lots six should be the the local designated historic property if you will I just hadn't gone as far as a conservation easement and the implications it might have for a future owner But I mean it's it's not that we would be opposed to that I you know, I think we would consider it Well, I appreciate that I'd like you to just As a as time moves on and you know, it's sort of one of these death by a thousand cuts sort of scenarios over over time This is a big move Any rate And especially because of that easement Oh, and so then Would there be any further? So we've already issued a preliminary coa. We've this would be another coa Do we get a coa to do we get a plan a site plan coming back here that shows us the actual final proposed locations of these moves because that's not part of this right now And that could be a certainly be a condition of of this particular process right and In the april hearing we had talked about Asking for architectural drawings. So what you're basically really doing here is proposing the guidelines as a substitution to In other words as long as if we approve the guidelines here then When a lot gets developed and a home gets designed that review happens strictly with the new HOA and would not come back in front of this commission That's correct And into the in terms of having are you suggesting an exhibit like this on the first year first point? Yeah, at some point. I mean there's going to be a site plan that would be The proposed site plan for this right lot six and I think it would be appropriate At minimum that that come to this commission and chairman lane We think this is it. I mean, you know, we can there's some Refinements to do with in terms of the access on the south side, but this we believe is Very close to that site plan and we certainly could paper Your your you know the coa with With an exhibit that indicates this I mean, that's what we'd actually did before when jade was still here There was a decision made and then And then we we papered it, you know documented that I think she may have discussed that with you So we could do the same thing here Okay, this could be the exhibit Yeah, I mean, I would like this. I think for myself. I would like to see something Formal right. I mean the there will be a final document not not a sketch. That's that's right Even if it's even if it's a condition that staff Must take a look at this and sign off for you know, the historic preservation Liaison for staff Reviews it and says, okay, there are no substantial differences Therefore we're fine, but there's some level of check in that process This is actually the site plan of the preliminary plat that we've we've submitted I And I just created the sketch to so you could read it a little bit better But that's actually a CAD drawing that's going through the process Okay, great. Well, it just it wasn't that wasn't in our packet. So that's one of the reasons why I was interested Okay, okay If there are no other questions for the applicant, I'll go ahead and open up the public hearing. Thank you Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak to this particular agenda item? Seeing none, I'll go ahead and close the public hearing And open it up for discussion among the commission. I I had a lot to say there. I'm curious what you're all Your your thoughts are I don't know You know since we're we're talking about you know squishing these historic buildings into one property um, and then having the stretch of of the five home sites, um And I I will say you know if this moves forward I like the idea of you know The the the architecturals that he had shown you know the different examples I'm and I like the idea of it linking and blending between the historic property and The neighborhood next to it. Um If if we were to approve this, um, I guess I'm a little worried about it Just kind of it feels like it might be jammed up against where that first house would be our last house the lot five um, so I don't know I mean To your question see when you are talking about you know, would we have any input or anything about What those setbacks might be to the property lines or how big those houses are? up against that, you know those barns and things like that I I don't I don't know if that how much that goes to us or maybe that's more for city planning and zoning But I guess that would be a question right what would the setbacks be on those new lots I would have to go back and do a little bit of research, but they would have to meet the city. Um our city standards Right And as a 5000 square foot lot, you're probably not going to have a particularly beefy setback on the sides. Otherwise you wouldn't have a building left Um, so it's likely that that lot five. I mean Which is really the one that matters I suppose is going to have a fairly small setback on that eastern edge Um Which is a little different because we did have originally, you know in the initial application it was a An alley, right? So there was space So what we are being asked to Act on If I understand things correctly is is in it is an approval of the design guidelines proposed a an amendment of the landmark designation from the entire property to Something else I would be more inclined to say lot six as a whole rather than specifically buildings um, and then add Whatever other thoughts We might deem appropriate So, uh, let's just take it one at a time. Is there any comments from commissioners on the design guidelines? I mean, are there any issues or Concerns in the guidelines? There you go. Uh, no, I don't have any specific Specific concerns about the guidelines as presented. I was just going to make a motion to Change the landmark designation from the original full lot to just lot six rather than to buildings But to lot six with the move buildings on the site Okay, um, if are you making a formal motion here? Yes, okay, so Just as a note that that's one of two things, right? um I could the other we want to handle this as separate line item. I don't know why this is doing that separate line items Is that okay? That's that's how staff would recommend that we do address these as separate line items. Okay Okay, so there's a motion on the table to To amend the landmark designation to lot six With the buildings moved as Planned as presented right with the buildings moved per the requirement of the Of the original coa approval That's correct Okay, so I have a motion from commissioner jacoby seconded by commissioner sibley Any further discussion? I would like at some point to get a recommendation for a conservation easement In one of these And I would also like a well if the board is so inclined. I'd like a formal statement That we would not support an alley Access running through that proposed easement And it feels like this is the right portion to address that so So I'm not as sharp on the robits rules of order We have a motion and and a And a second, so I think we have to act on that formally I Go ahead. I was just going to say I think you can ask for a friendly amendment. Okay from all right, okay Yeah, you can amend the motion. Okay. I appreciate that. It's been a while since Okay, so I would request a friendly amendment Of that motion to add both those Components a that that we recommend the applicant consider strongly consider a conservation easement on lot six And that we note as a commission that we do not support the creation of an alley Through the access easement as proposed on the south side of lot six or with Are you accepted? Yeah Okay, I would accept that amendment You want to re seconds? Yes. That's four instead of two. It's two seconds. All right. Never Um Okay, so we have an amended motion on the floor. I think we Really do you have that pretty well? I don't need to say it all over again. Thank you because that would take another 10 minutes Um Okay with a motion on the floor. I'll call for a vote. All those in favor Say aye. Aye. Any opposed? None. That motion carries unanimously So we still need to act on the design guidelines So we need a second motion if there are no if there's no further question or discussion about it I'll try to do this without having to amend anything, right? um So I'm just a little concerned is that when you put five lots on there, they're smaller and I I like the design guidelines. I'm not sure how you're going to make a house fit On a smaller lot that would fully meet that but that's the permanence of architects and planners I'm just here to say Whether I like that idea and I so I do like that and so I would move that we support the guidelines as presented Okay, so I have a motion to approve the design guidelines by commissioner ducobi and second seconded by commissioner hardy's All those in favor Aye Any opposed none that motion also carries unanimously Thank you for your time and for bringing this application in front of us We'll move on to new business, uh, which we don't have any of Beyond what we've already taken care of tonight Prior business we have three items on that list The first being the dickens barns latin property update Yes, I mentioned that briefly in my staff report and again, we continue to work with the applicant We are going to be meeting with the parks recreation advisory board on the 12th of september So stay tuned. We are still working on trying to figure out how we can save that barn Okay, so the the park and rec board that has not met since that field trip They have not no that what that field trip was in lieu of their their regular meeting Okay Any commissioners have any questions for staff on that? topic No, okay An update on the status of a historic preservation plan and survey grants At this point its status quo unless brian has any updates Okay We are we are still that is still something that we are seeking to To work on um, we definitely have had some staffing challenges and workload issues. So we're doing what we can Okay, um I hear that last meeting we did ask if that if uh if the non-competitive grant application might be filled out by this hearing So We were we have had aspirations of getting that done. Um, but we are um working on seeing how we can get that done Okay Commissioner questions comments Okay Be great to get some uh momentum on the surveys Thank you. And then hbc code amendments. Um, we may have another joint session Yeah, um, I was just going to add to what jennifer mentioned at the beginning of the meeting That was the direction from the mayor that we um look at The calendar and try and set that so I believe that's happening now But I haven't heard of a proposed date now Council's kind of in the middle of our budget through this month. Um, yeah, it's this month So I don't think it's going to be in september, but Um, we'll let you know as soon as we arrive at a date okay, um I do feel like that first discussion was back in august was very helpful to get Council and city attorney's office on more of the same page At the moment that leaves us essentially waiting for another proposal from city council from really from city attorney's office That we can then truly sink our teeth into Okay, any questions about the code amendments process, no, okay All right, um, then we'll move to uh comments from hbc commissioners. Do any of the commissioners was to offer a comment Okay, uh comments from city council rep All right, thank you All right, uh with that I will motion to or accept the motion to adjourn all right, so All right adjournment motion by commissioner sibley seconded by commissioner jacobi all in favor Hi, all right. We are adjourned. Thank you very much The public hearing that's why I asked that question and then you said I could bring it up at the end So I'm So the owner just came up to me and said that he was looking at putting a breezeway from the house to the accessory dwelling and so my concern would be that If those plans don't go out to the public again there's It's it's not transparent. I mean something very awkward could go in I mean the integrity of the man looks very good But not everyone's integrity is going to be good. So There there needs to be some notification process at least to neighborhoods or people who came to the meeting That now that it's been extended Here's the new plan that they're bringing because it's not on the original stuff that we were given And obviously he's going to bring something new that includes a breezeway Well, whatever whatever whatever whatever that's all i'm saying is that this meeting was in the packet And what the public was given But you know, it's going to be at our next meeting, right? So you've you've got notice And it will be on that agenda Oh, I get that part of it. I totally get that so I'm just saying anybody who was at the meeting tonight If they could get the same thing in the packet when you get it I mean it email It's kind of the way that things always worked previously and all of a sudden now they're not working that way anymore It's concerning But we didn't even get a notification about the adu as a neighborhood