 Okay, welcome everybody. Welcome to this today's webinar, which is called the power of silent learners in a group. And this is a question that I think awakes a lot of interest and something we'd like to share with you and some would like to get your ideas. This webinar is in a way a joint production, the Eden, the European distance and e-learning network together with the Nordic Network for Adult Education, the NVL, the Swedish Network for IT and Higher Education, ITHU and the Dutch webinar.nl. And today we're going to hopefully get lots of participation out of you. We want to discuss the question of those learners who maybe don't want to take part in group work, who find problems in the collaboration sometimes, who actually want to do it on their own and need space. They need time. They need to reflect. They work best like that. They're not against a bit of social contact. It's nothing to do with that. It's simply that when I'm studying, I want to concentrate and I need to concentrate and I need space. So we want to discuss that and about how we work in groups. With me today, some guests. First of all, Jan Willem. Hi Alastair. I shall introduce myself briefly. My name is Jan Willem, Jan Willem Kemper. I'm a tax consultant, but I'm also a teacher or a trainer. I give courses to my fellow tax advisors to keep them up to date with the new regulations and new developments. Okay, and you like to be out on the sea and I quite like the sea too since I've always lived beside the sea and especially sea birds are an interest of mine. There's a bit of my home in Scotland there. I'm an e-learning specialist at Linnaeus University and in terms of learning, I'm probably rather noisy though I can be quiet now and again to everyone's relief. So let's see how we go this time. Francisco. Thank you Alastair and I'm also a noisy learner. I'm also an entrepreneur at xwebinar.nl and I help organizations with online collaboration and I am very extrovert and I love a cafe style interaction always. But I like to have a leader who is an introvert because I discovered the power of introverts already since 15 years and that's why I'm here and I learned to collaborate with them and I needed a lot of patience but it was worth it. I learned it from Jan Willem. He's also Dutch. He lives in my town and he was one who could manage big problems in the sailing club by staying cool, making great analyzes of the situation and he was a prejudiced. So I learned these things also in the course called Human Dynamics, the same course as Jan Willem 15 years ago but I use this knowledge every day. Later on in the webinar I will tell you some experience in a PBL group. So what brings you here? What about you? We want you to, this is a very participatory webinar because we would like, we're going to continually ask you to contribute in the chat and in various poll questions. So we're going to be throwing questions backwards and forwards so please keep the fingers at your keyboards. The question is why are you here? What do you want to discover? What are you interested in finding out in terms of silent learners? Could you just type a little bit here and let's see what do you think in the chat below? Yes. It's easy to forget about the silent learners. It's not so much discussed. That's true. Therefore we have this webinar. Yes, Sinead you're saying about how to understand them, how best to support them without hassling them and this is something that we've seen that sometimes we're too anxious as teachers and we keep sending messages. Are you okay? Is everything good? We want to see you. We demand that participation level and we get worried when they're not doing it and should we remind or should we leave them alone? How do we tackle this? Yeah, Jenny, why are we talking about silent learners as if they are a problem? I hope that's not the impression we're trying to give here. I think we need to recognize there is a power there and they need to be empowered. They need to be brought in but in the right way. Sometimes the problem is us, the noisy ones. Sometimes we need to be quieter. We can learn a lot. Yes, everyone needs to be encouraged. They need to be able to grow in their own way. That's great. Shall we? Okay, thank you. Lots of ideas there. So any thoughts on Francisco? Just go on. Just go on in the chat. We go on with the next slide. Keep on coming. Your input is appreciated, of course. We will try to put all this together later and all your comments will be sort of going through and trying to make some sense in summarizing it. So a little bit of context before we continue. You're welcome to keep chatting and if Francisco sees anything in the chat, you're welcome to comment while I'm talking away. One bit of background towards this is a project. It's a Nordic Nordplus project which myself and some people in this room at the moment, Torhild and Taru is there as well. I'm not sure if Robiartor has come but we're from all the Nordic countries and self-governing territories. So we have one member from each of them including Oland and the Faroe Islands and Greenland. We have a website called Silent Learners where we try to share what we've been doing and some ideas and you'll find quite a lot of resources there. We had a tweet chat, an Eden tweet chat last week about Silent Learners and if you click on the link, the lower link there, you'll go to the Storify version where you can see the entire tweet chat. And there were a lot of interesting ideas came up there. So today it's about group collaboration with adults and we're focusing here because there are many types of Silent Learners. As you can see here, there are many varieties. What we are focusing on today are those who are silent by nature, as in Susan Cain's video, the introverts. We all can be silent sometimes and we can have problems, we can have all sorts of social issues but we're focusing on by choice. And what is the problem or is there a problem at all? Group work. When we are working in real life, as they say, when we're working face to face, the silent people are there. But we can see them and we know their thinking and maybe it's a little bit easier in a face to face situation. But online, if their camera isn't on, if they're not in the meeting, if they're not actively participating, are they there? Are they interested? Is it boring? Are they lost? Is this too simple for them? We don't know. And that makes us uneasy. So how to recognize Silent Learners, the natural ones? And what are the needs and how do we empower them in a group process? How do we get them involved? Because that's what we want to discuss today, that we want to get some ideas from you and share some of our ideas. One thing we just, a little caveat here, none of us are experts. None of us three are super researchers who have got lots and lots of evidence and studies and so on. We're just interested. We're involved in education and teaching. We're curious. We want to raise this issue so that we're not going to be sure. So we're sharing experience and ideas just as you are. So no big science here at the moment, but there are some good articles out there which we refer to from the website. So how do we recognize a Silent Learner? Over to Francesca. Okay. Thank you, Alistair. Yes, I will take over. My English is not so good, but I hope you understand. Otherwise, she can always ask me in the chat. Thank you. We're going to do an interview with Jan Willem, our special Silent Learner of today. But first, I want to tell you something about an experience I had with two Silent Learners in my PBL group. I was joining the Open Network Learning project. It's an educational project and I was co-facilitating a PBL group. And I want you to tell about this problem with the group concerning a Silent Learner and how we solved it. We met twice a week during three months and after one month, problems occurred in the group. Three group members were very engaged and working on a group presentation. Another group member, we call her Gina, that's not her real name of course. She was inactive. She was not participating. And one time, Gina was not there and the group started to express their feelings about Gina's attitude and that was not positive. At that moment, my experience in human dynamics was very relevant. I never was a teacher. 50 years ago, I joined that course on this topic and I learned how to deal with diversity. There was a judgment in the PBL group over group members who were not participating. So I stopped the group and I asked them to pay attention to the group process. I suggested that they maybe were too fast with judging and maybe they could ask Gina why she did not contribute it. The next time in the online meeting, Gina gave a total analysis of the group process and everyone was astonished by her observations. And from that moment everything changed. Gina was asked what she needed to collaborate and the group made 10 steps forward. When we reflected on this moment, Gina said, it was hard for me to follow the discussion. Participants were excited and talked a lot due to lacking English skills together with a lack of knowledge about the topic which we discussed. It sometimes made me passive and I did not take responsibility for the task because I couldn't. So that was my experience. Now I want to ask Jan Willem. You are a silent learner by nature. We know each other for a long time and I want to ask you at what age did you discover that you were a silent learner? Well, it was in my early 40s that I discovered that I am a silent learner. Before that I realized that I am a silent person or perhaps better said an introvert person. But 15 years ago I attended the same course as you did about human dynamics. And there I learned that an introvert can be a silent learner but also a very effective learner. And that was very important to me at that time. Yes, great. Thank you. And how did you feel when you discovered it? Well, as a matter of fact I was relieved because I always thought that I wasn't, well, should I say normal. But now I realized that it is quite normal to be a silent learner. Silent learners are a minority I think. I think that about 20 to 25% of the population are silent learners. But I was relieved that it wasn't unusual to be quiet in groups yet participating. Yes, okay. And now I would like to ask the participants how do you recognize silent learners and how we are going further with characteristics and so. So please, will you give, will you type your answer in the chat? How do you recognize silent learners? It is difficult we know. But just try. Thank you for the links in the chat. And maybe they need to notice that we now have a separate chat on the left for this question. Yes. Thank you, Alistair. Yeah, it is very common that they don't talk so much like noisy learners. But there are some other characteristics. Lack of eye contact. They're observant. Yes, yes, that's it. Yeah, that's it. Okay, just finish your typing and then we will ask you and Willem. It can be difficult, yes. But while online collaboration is going on, we can recognize them, it's for sure. Willem, can you tell us something about characteristics of the silent learner? Yes, while doing some speed reading, I recognize a few things in the chat. What I would say is that many silent learners are thinkers rather than doers and they tend to be objective. They need structure in their course. They are not very keen on showing emotions, which does not mean that they have no emotions because they have. And they like to keep the total picture, the overview. That's what I would say. Okay, thank you. Can you tell us something about your learning process comparing two others? Well, I like to be left alone when learning. I learn better on my own. The emphasis is on reading for me rather than listening. Of course, the quality of the teacher is important. A very good teacher who can tell interesting stories I like to listen to. But for me, the relearning is in the reading process. That is much more important. Also, I like to start at the beginning, then move on to the end. I do not like to start in the middle of a process. For me, that is confusing. Another thing, when collaborating with other people, that should not be a problem. To me, it is no problem. But I like to be prepared. So, when collaborating without preparation, I tend to get into difficulties. Yes, you learn to work, how to collaborate, first preparing and then collaborating, like Susan Cain said in her video. Exactly. Yeah, that's clear. The next question, what gives you stress? Because that is also very important. A few things. When people are talking altogether, at the same time, that is disturbing for me. I need to contemplate. I need to think. When a group is noisy, I seem to forget myself and I can't think anymore. That is disturbing. So, a webinar is very great for you. When all the microphones are off, yes, it is. Yes, and therefore you had enough time to prepare yourself for this webinar. So, you feel very comfortable at this moment. Yes, at the moment I'm very comfortable, sure. So, no stress today? A little bit stress. Not too much. Just enough. And how do you behave when you are stressed? So, we can recognize the silent learner a little bit better, because in my PBL group, I recognize the behavior of pulling back. That's exactly what I do. I tend to leave the group, mentally of course, not physically, that would be rude, but I can become even more quieter than I am. So, I keep listening, but I don't participate. Okay, and is your thinking going on or not? Are you angry then, or is your thinking going on? Sometimes I can get irritated, but I keep thinking, I keep listening. Okay. But no one sees that I'm doing it. Great. So, what difficulties arise when silent learners collaborate in a group? First, tell us your experiences. Well, when I keep silent in a group, some people will think that I'm lazy, or not willing to participate, or even stupid, and that annoys me. So, one annoyance causes another, and that is not very good for the atmosphere in the group. So, to me, that's the main problem. Okay. Okay, thank you. And then I would like to ask participants, we're not reacting on all the chat comments, because there are so many, and there's so much information today. So, thank you, thank you very much. After the webinar, we will put all the reports on the website, and then we are going to analyze all the tips, and you can read them, and you can use them. Thank you, thank you. First, will you go to the chat on the left side, and maybe you can chat what difficulties arise with collaboration in your groups, so we can make a collection of these points from all you. Yes, Alistair, you want to join in? There's an awful lot of ideas going around. I mean, there is this... Of course, the classic is the idea very, very, very interesting from the chat. Somehow there's something suspicious about these people who are not actively involved, and that it's got a negative tone to it, which is unfortunate, because it's about a choice we should be able to learn in our own ways. Maybe Jan Willem can react on this, because do you know the word lurking, Jan Willem? I'm familiar with the word, yes, I am. What do you think about it? Well, I read somewhere Alistair writes, lurking is such a negative word. Perhaps it is, but it can also be very useful by not doing anything and just contemplating about what's being said and what's being read. That's what I should say about it. Yes. But can I react to the chat on the left side? Of course, go ahead. I think by Jan, and I think that's very important, he writes because they might be told to be by the extroverts in a group. Susan Kane said that our education system is designed for extrovert people, and I think she's very right. And I think it would be very useful for us to realize that this is the case. Yes. I wonder if this has changed, and we have a participation society and a very sort of a self-centred. We're projecting ourselves on this media. Look at me, look at me, look at us. I'm doing things. I think it's become, I have a feeling that it is getting more like that. And in education, we really focus on collaboration, cooperation, activity. And I know many teachers who wonder that we're so busy jumping around and, you know, there's a lot of good about jumping around about looking at different sources, about skin reading and so on. But how often do we really practice deep reading and reflection? And there's this question about how often do we let ourselves become actually bored, especially children? Let them be bored. There are some articles about that and it's quite a fascinating that we need time to get bored as well. Silent time. Yes. And there's also 21st century skills which we need to learn more to think clear. And I think that is also part of it. Yeah. I would also like to say that collaboration is very important also to silent learners. It's about the way how you collaborate. I'm not going to say and I don't think that collaboration should be abolished. On the contrary, it should be learned. Yes. And silent learners has to be respected maybe. A little bit more. Yes. Is group size a factor for you? And they ask if group size is a factor. Jan-Willem, will you answer this question? I would distinguish a group in which I am a participant and then a smaller group might be better. On the other hand, when I act as a teacher for me it's no problem if there are 10 participants or 300, that's no problem. It depends also on what kind of assignments the group is doing and how the teacher is. How the teacher helps them. And if he doesn't know that a silent learner needs a different approach, well then the silent learner gets lost. Yeah. That's what I experienced also in the PBL group. Someone was totally lost. And when we asked what do you need and she said in some sentences that she needed a structure to participate and it was so very clear. Stasia in particular you think of in general. You listen respectfully. Whereas in the West we tend to make a noise. Yes. Okay, it goes on. Thank you for all these contributions. It's amazing. I really should take a course speed reading. Okay, let's go on. Thank you. And we just let it open for some seconds. Jan-Willem, which role do you play the best in teams? Because that's another point. If you are collaborating, if you are in a team, which role do you play the best? How can we use your power as an introvert? I shall start by saying that I'm not the leader. But I can be the guard of the process that the group is going through to keep the group moving, to be a mediator when group members have conflicting opinions. That's my role and that's what I can do best. Okay, and that's what you like the best also? And that's also what I like the best, yeah. Yeah, okay. So that's the role. And then what do you need for learning in groups? When you are collaborating, can you tell us what do you need to play your role or do the best you can? Well, at first I need a clear assignment. Yeah. To begin with. And the other part is that when working in a group, it is important that it is acknowledged that the silent learner exists, that the silent learner has his or her, of course, place in the group. What I mean is don't judge but ask. Ask the silent learner questions, which gives the opportunity to say something, to think about what's happening. That helps. Yeah. And don't presume they are lazy and don't presume they are uninterested. But that is not very motivating to the silent learner. But it is sometimes a little bit difficult in a group because in my PBL group there were some very noisy learners and they were very engaged and very enthusiastic. And then there was someone who was not participating and there were emotions involved. So it was very difficult to say now stop and the emotions put them out of the group now and just look to the group process what is going on and what is needed now to let everyone join. So emotions is sometimes a problem. Yeah. You gave attention to the one who was excluded and this person was excluded because of the reasons we just discussed. Yes. Okay, thank you. I think it is clear. And then now the next round. We will ask you are you a silent learner by nature or a noisy learner? So this is to you, all the participants. And now we have this slide and I would like to ask you to change your chat color. So we know who is a silent learner and who is not. So what you have to do now is now action. It's go to the chat on the right side and then go to these little stripes. Go to my chat color and change it. If you are a silent learner, make it green. If you are a noisy learner like me, make it orange. And if you are something in between, make it blue. So just try it and then I will ask you a question. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, please tell us what sort of learner you are. So we know how much silent learners we have, how much noisy learners we have and how much something in between learners we have. There's a lot of green people, green silent learners. That's very nice. Yes, great. A lot of blue ones. Maybe you didn't identify yourself totally, I don't know. I think everyone is in between because if you are a developed silent learner, you are not so silent anymore. And if you are a noisy person, noisy learner and you are developed, you can shit your mouth sometimes. Yeah, there's a brown one. So there's also something in between, I think. Now, this will work. Yes. Okay, this is working. Then we go on with the needs of the silent learner. And how are we doing this? We are using some scenarios from interview from Taru Kekkonen with silent learners. Thank you, Taru. You are now on the bus and we would like to talk a little bit to you, but you are not able to. So we thank you very much for these interviews and they are also on the silent learners blog. And what we are going to do is that we have some scenarios. We have a big chat pod and I will make it a little bit smaller because then you can stay chatting. On the left pod, read this scenario and read the question beneath in pink and then answer this question. So then you are rehearsed. You are going to rehearse your role as a teacher when you're now knowing a little bit more about silent learners and then you can inspire each other. Thank you. Can you come back on the webcam so you can react later on on this? Yes, I will. Yes, okay, thank you. You are very busy at this moment. Jan-Willem, what do you think? Someone said, Lana said, make a group with only silent learners. What do you think about this? It might get very silent. Yes. I wouldn't do... I think I wouldn't like being a silent learner. I'm not opposed to noisy learners. I think that the conditions should be created to make all of them comfortable and for me it means that the teacher should give clear assignments. Perhaps that is the most important part and questions should be asked. I can see this from the chat from addressing a silent learner directly. It's not always the right way. It may disturb the silent learner, but when you create a group and you instruct the participants to ask questions to one another, I think it could help. Yes, and I have maybe a little bit personal question. When you knew you were a silent learner, so when you were in your early 40s, then you knew it was normal. From then on, was it easier to collaborate when you knew that you were normal but just different? Yes, it was easier because before, I sometimes even felt guilty by not saying so much. And then when I realized that it could be very normal not to say a lot of things, it made it easier for me. Okay, thank you. Then we go on to the next one. Dear participants, please react on this scenario. Someone is talking about the Oprah model and proposes that you just work in a pair in the beginning. That's a great idea. Okay, you can go on writing. William, what would you say to encourage this silent learner who said this? I'm not sure if you can do much about it. Myself, I am also one who does not have the need to be loudly in the group. Perhaps that's just the way people are. The only thing you can do is make them feel comfortable in this group. Make it safe to give answers that are incorrect. Give them room. And learn the others to listen because Susan Kane said in a video there to be a silent... there to be... not noisy, what did she say? I forgot it. There to be not so loud. Yes, some people in the group they are talking all the time and a teacher should be able to silence them a little to make space for the other ones. Yes, and get used to it that people want to finish their sentences. I think that is something very basic of collaboration. Listen to each other. And creating space. He has space and patience for the noisy learners, I think. Okay, it's going the right direction. The next topic, the next scenario. I hate spontaneous discussions because I don't know what appropriate is to say. What would you ask the group members of the silent learner? What would you say to them? So please, will you give your answer in the chat? And we make the reports of this, of course. And it's very interesting when you are using your colors. Indeed, there is no wrong answer. There are no wrong answers. I understand you. Yes. Take your time. Yes. Great. Jan-Willem, what do you think about this? What would you ask group members to say? Giving a wrong answer when learning can be a problem to a silent learner. And giving a wrong answer should not be a problem because it's part of learning. And you can help the silent learner by making him accept that you can say anything in the safe environment of a learning group and that giving a wrong answer is not a problem. We always say that you can learn from your mistakes and that's what you're doing when learning. So create safety to give wrong answers. Yes, and I think also stop the group when the culture is getting to the wrong direction and stop the group and talk about the group process if people judge about each other on what they say. When learning, people shouldn't judge each other. They should talk about the answers and not the person. When being silent, people tend to talk about the person and not about what he is saying or not saying. Yes, but sometimes when emotions are involved and there are difficulties between different kinds of learners it could be a little bit difficult, we remarked. Yes, and when this happens when too much emotions become involved it's the role of the teacher to act as a moderator to pull things down to bring it back into perspective. Yes, great. Okay, people are thinking, people are writing. Not all learning is intellectual. That is true. Go on and put your thoughts in the chat. We will wait a little bit because it is very interesting and this is the kind of a crowdsourcing webinar. We don't know everything about all of your ideas and put it together. And some people find the chat very stressful because that's happening a lot and it is stressful. But it's also very valuable and I think for silent learners it's not easy to think. It's like the tweet chat. But yes, we appreciate your contribution. And it's for everyone later on. I think how do we help everyone to think deeper with less spontaneous? I think that's a very interesting question. Is it a skill? Is it a habit? Is it behavior? How do we help everyone to think deeper with less spontaneous, with being less spontaneous? Jan-Willem, what do you think about this? Being less spontaneous. I'm not sure what you mean now. Lotta said how do we help everyone in the group I think to think deeper? I might say just people who think first and then speak. And there are people who first speak and think then or don't think at all. It's also possible. When these two people get together you get problems. Because one is too spontaneous and the other perhaps not enough spontaneous. It's the task of the leader of the teacher or the chairperson to guard this process and ensure that everyone can say what is useful. What is useful is not the right word but what could contribute to a good discussion. Yes, so you talked in the beginning about a clear assignment, clear assignment, some space listening to each other and then I think we will come to the next No, not the next chapter. We will talk to it later on what is needed for empowering the silent learner. So I think we now going further to the next scenario. Maybe you could think about this. It is easier to join an online discussion because the structure is more clear. I said one silent learner and now I would like to ask you how do you think about this? Marcus wanted a more structured chat. Yes. There are group support systems. You can work with more than 100 people and then you have a structured chat, Marcus. It's possible technically. Okay, Jan-Willem. What do you think about online discussions? For me, a structured discussion is always better and online it is easier to structure the discussion. That's right, but in real life and especially nowadays for me discussion in real life is not a problem any longer. Why? Because I now know what kind of learner I am and how I can do my best contribution to the discussion. Sometimes this is being silent and listening carefully to what is being said. Then think of what I am going to say and then say it. In the past, the last part didn't come. Now it does. I am not afraid any longer of saying what I need to say. Yes, you are a developed silent learner, I think. Great. Now we come to the chapter how to empower the silent learner in group context because we all want to understand the silent learner by nature and we all want the group to... That's been fantastic. The chat, I must admit, I think we all find a chat that's going at the speed that this is going with. There are about 80 people involved here so when there are so many people making contributions like this it does get pretty confusing in there but you can go back in the recording and read it slowly so you can do that. That's the advantage of an online situation. As we've said we've talked about creating awareness of diversity. I think we need to recognize that you don't have to be participating loudly to be learning and we need to recognize different roles here. I think we need to think more about those who want to be a little quieter. There are advantages of lots of group work and discussion and brainstorming but it shouldn't be all the time and we need to get that balance as come out on the chat that we need to create space for slightly more reflective activities. Finding ways of letting the silent learner maybe take an important role. As you found Francisco with your group when you were talking about that problem that you allowed the silent learner to use their strengths that was the silent learner produced an analysis of the group process and the group was amazed because this person had actually understood what was going on and they presented the thing to them. Maybe we should find tasks where the more silent people can maybe do some analysis work. Fact finding, doing the desktop research that will help the group process but not insisting that they're involved in the chaotic brainstorming and activity that can go on in the group. So that everyone can contribute but in different ways and making sure that the noisy learners you were talking about actually are also they have to learn to be quiet. Heather was saying in the chat there that maybe we should have a webinar about noisy learners. I don't think it's not a binary problem it's not a noisy silent thing either I think it's very much about learning to adapt and learning to be quiet learning to be reflective learning to be attributive. We all have those strengths so really as we're beginning to round off here how can we encourage group members to use the strengths of the silent learner are there any further ideas coming up on that because that really is the key. How do we lift them? Using different media as Eva says here and we often have this there has been a bit of a tyranny in education on written language now it's spoken but we expect everyone to hand in written assignments but lots of educators are now saying well why don't you hand in a video assignment and that can require just as much research and depth and learning as a written assignment why not audio why not using art using representation there are different ways of presenting something I've seen these incredible artists that come to conferences who can actually draw spontaneously fantastic drawn diagrams that capture the essence of a keynote speech or the entire conference in one wonderful mural now that is high skilled work just as much as writing a report so really making don't judge ask questions as you said Jan-Billem have we changed again, Franziska how to implore I think the answers were coming in already actually but we clean the board and let's see what we can do okay, yeah yes yes, okay yeah, I go back sorry yes, because then we're all together here I think really the sort of session you've got to look at the recording to make sense so please write down everything you want to say or write here we just keep going because this is really important when you can stop it and read to yourself I think awareness is very important here to be aware that there are different kind of people the knowledge of diversity and write suggestions at the beginning I think it's focusing at the beginning on how we're going to work as a group how do we like to work as a group be to work on routines like that and the role of the teacher is so important here and we can see that the teacher's role is structuring this and enabling that happens I've tried yeah and sometimes being silent it is difficult in this role when you're visible like this even in a webinar because people, it's a little bit worrying if it's all silent everyone's reading or writing it's like the television it's never silent yeah we have to get used to it shall we go to the end Alistair and then we have time enough after the webinar to go on with this we collect everything and then if you want to talk it's possible we are coming to the end of our time it's four minutes till four o'clock here in Sweden anyway and then the Netherlands we thank you so much it's been a great experience I hope it has been for you it's not been too chaotic and as I said you'll all get the link and you can read it at your leisure we propose that you can hang around if you want and we'll chatter away we'll open the microphones if you want to speak but after we turn the recording off then we're off the record and if you want to stay you can otherwise enjoy the rest of the day and thank you for attending please on the bottom left ideas about the webinar was it valuable what was valuable about it or not and just give us some quick feedback there and on behalf of the well they're not really sponsors it's not a financial operation but from NVL and ITHU and Eden and X webinar and we thank everybody for this we will have future webinars in all these networks and they will all be advertised on their respective websites one thing I can say is that on the 19th of April I'll be back with new friends and we'll be discussing the question of using MOOCs for helping refugees get integrated into higher education and into the labour market and that's a very different topic and we'll be investigating that on the 19th of April more information on the various websites so thank you very much Francisca Jan-Willem, final words to sum up and this is the website yeah thank you for all the participants for all the contributions and we will have a look to it after the webinar of course and we will think it over and I think that is very valuable for us and of course I'm speaking before Jan-Willem so sorry Jan-Willem would you like to give a last comment on this? I certainly would like to say something I've read a lot of interesting contributions which can deepen my view on the subject and I was very happy to say something about this subject because it is too little discussed perhaps we've made a start on discussing it now it would help a lot of people silent learners but also others thank you for your great contribution Jan-Willem because when Alastair and I okay I will now close the webinar