 Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon for Kubernetes conferences. The second year, it's really getting large, community's awesome. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE, and Stu Miniman, we keep on analyst with SiliconANGLE, and next guest is Hen Goldberg, engineering director at Google. On stage today, Kino, welcome to theCUBE. Thank you, thank you very much for inviting me. We'd love to have Google on. Google is the new guard in cloud. You guys are doing a lot of amazing technology. It's fun to watch. It's also fun to watch how Google's handled the Kubernetes evolution. I know it was a hard decision internally from the conferences we had with Craig back in the day and Brendan, but really what a good decision that was is to bring it out into the open. CNCF gets ahold of it, really created a community here. So congratulations. Thank you. I think there is more to that than just bring it to the open and creating community. It's also about the culture and values. I've touched it in my keynote talking about empowerment, but this is really one of the core values of the engineering culture in Google that anyone can come up with a great idea. So having that thought into the design of Kubernetes with modularity and accessibility is really key. And you guys are no stranger to large scale technology. We've been talking on theCUBE here and certainly for the past year about the democratization with containers and microservices really showing a clear path to value. You start to have this accelerated kind of goodness happening in developer community. You got software engineering happening at levels of the stack. And then you got really focused application development happening infrastructure as code. Kind of for the first time, we're starting to see some real cohesiveness there on both sides. We are getting there. I wouldn't say we are there already, but definitely that's the goal. What are you most excited about with Kubernetes here at the show? What are some of the things that you see that's standing out for you in Kubernetes? I would say two things. The first one is, if you've noticed in all the keynotes, there was a very consistent message coming from all the speakers regardless of what company they are on. So in my mind it just shows that the leadership of the Kubernetes community is aligned. We have the same vision in mind. We all talk about, we all know it's just the beginning. We all know there's more work to do. We all talk about the core extensibility. And I'm happy to see that. And we all talk about the same values by the way, which is also very important. Because I've been an engineering manager for many years. And in my mind, the key of building a strong team is with the alignment of the leadership. Once you have that, you can do whatever you want. Google has a long history of just building amazing technology. One of the knocks sometimes in the industry is like, well Google builds really amazing stuff that only Google people can understand how to use. We talked to the founders of Kubernetes and they said, well, we wanted to help bring some of that operating model to the world. It sure feels like at this show, feels a little bit more Google-y if I can use the term. What have you been seeing out there? What do you hear when you're talking with the community, with customers? I think that one thing that helped my team work well with Kubernetes community is being Google-y and being humble and listening and being pragmatic. You know, there was us today at SIG Architecture, and my team said that he had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that, they know how to do it, but realistically, most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity, for example? Yeah, scale is one of those things that we all bat around as to what scale really means. There's only a handful of customers that have Google-type of scale. So what does it mean when you're building these cyber technologies? What does scale mean to the community and the customers? Scale, so. From the perspective of the community, what it means? Like when they're, you know, Kubernetes, all these projects, you know, you said limit to 100 nodes. You know, I've heard, there were some people that said, okay, 5,000 nodes. But there have been some alternatives to Kubernetes that said Kubernetes didn't scale big enough. I know. And I've yet to find customers that didn't say that. I think, again, going to be problematic is what do you do first? And how do you show value when building a product? So when we started, the 100 nodes was sufficient. Today we support 5,000 nodes. Do you want to grow more than that? I think there are better ways to scale than just improve with nodes, for example. We are supporting, again, part of the vision of Kubernetes is the multi workloads. Okay, can you take the same cluster and run different type of workloads and then utilize the resources in a more efficient way? Because there's also, of course, a total of managing different nodes. Scale is on many aspects. You need to think about how you scale your team. This is something that, again, that I think Google is bringing a lot to the community. We had, for example, our SRE team did a talk here in KubeCon of how we are managing our clusters and how we bring our own experience. Much of the automation of a Kubernetes cluster is built on top of our experience. Saying that, this is also where we differentiate. I mean, our goal is to bring everything we know from Google into the Kubernetes community. The tooling, the developer experience, this is what we bring as add-ons into the Kubernetes. Operational excellence, we do that for you. Yes. You've done that. You've had great container mindset from day one. Not so much VMs either. So you had that kind of microservices vision. When you guys look at building the cloud for customers, we are seeing that customers aren't yet there yet. Some are nice, they want microservices, but they're still in their old VM worlds of dealing with virtual machines and some bare metal. How is Kubernetes a opportunity for customers? Because they're looking at this announcement saying, I like cloud native. I like Kubernetes. This is good for me. I got to get more developers. I have to port my applications. They're going to need some cloud to go with that. What are your thoughts? I have many thoughts on that. Definitely we cannot cover that in the time we have. And I do believe in colonization and Kubernetes. I do expect that majority of the workloads, at least in cloud, will be containerized. Saying that I'm confident that not all of them will be containerized, which is important to acknowledge. Definitely it's building such a platform. I think the first value that Kubernetes brings to those customers is that they can have it on-prem. And it's easy to manage. And with the new set of technologies, like Istio, for example, and our FOD and a service vocal to be across broader than just Kubernetes, we are allowing them to have a hybrid setting even within their own prem. So I can manage with Kubernetes, but also have some other workloads in the same manner. And you can see that much of the obstruction that we're trying to build in the Kubernetes community, we are trying to make sure that they will be relevant outside of the Kubernetes scope, because we acknowledge that. Could you expand on, you're talking about, Kubernetes can be both on-premises in the public cloud. Obviously Google Cloud has to be a major focus what you're doing. How do you look at that experience between really the data center and the public cloud? No, it's a pretty broad question, but... So some things are similar. For example, from tooling perspective and experience, I think that we and also customers on-prem can achieve a consistent experience, whatever they run, like for example, we have some retail customers that are running Kubernetes on the warehouse and in the data centers and they are happy with that. You can probably not get to zero to one and you cannot just start a new node. So your auto-scaling is different from management perspective. Upgrade, of course other aspects, but the way we are working with some obstructions, we are allowing the vendors in particular to make sure that there is a good foundation to run Kubernetes on-prem. Ken, I want to get your thoughts on the question. So pretend that we're in a, I bring you into a talk and in the audience is all these IT architects and CIOs and CDOs and CSOs and I raise my hand and I say, Ken, why should I go Kubernetes? I like the vision, but what does it mean to me? I have all this stuff. Consistency. How do you, what talk do you give to those folks and saying, here's what Kubernetes is, here's what the impact is for you and here's some of the outcomes you might see if you go down that path. I talk about consistency and freedom of choice. I've been working for a long time with IT teams and also including myself, building software. And where we spend most of our money and time is not about even building more hardware. It's about educating teams and mobility of engineers and then there is a new technology or something that takes a lot of effort to bake into whatever we already have existing and I think that's the promise for enterprises. Imagine that everything run on Kubernetes and it's the same Kubernetes everywhere. So how upgrade of an application running on Kubernetes will look like? I know how hard it is to do upgrades today. I was in IT department, living in IT department and that's all what we did. Our annual planning was how we upgrade the middleware, the infrastructure. Q1, we're doing that, Q2 and why? Because it's all very different and we are trying to get to a place where it's not. I know it's a vision, I know it's a dream. Service mesh points to this. This is what service mesh can bring. This notion of not having this architecture where you can have multiple code bases. But it's relying on Kubernetes. It has to have that consistent infrastructure so that would be one, it would be the consistency between environment and really the freedom of choice I think is very important from what I hear from customers. They want to move to cloud in their own pace. They want to move to maybe more than one cloud. So that gives them that ability without being locked in. So we get one piece of the stack that's consistent with Kubernetes but one of the things we've heard is some people say it's too complicated but that's also the opportunity because every customer can kind of build what they need. Build Kubernetes the hard way and have the adjustment so it's not one solution, a simple kind of homogeneous stack. There's a lot of layers there. So before you asked me what are the two things that I was most happy here seeing here at the conference. The first one was the alignment of the leadership. The other one was the amount of innovation. Like if you look around us, the amount of companies that innovate on top of Kubernetes, I'm super happy about it. Like that's a dream come true. Two years only, three years maybe. It's nothing. The gestation period is very short. Yes, and in my mind, so first of all Kubernetes is not hard today. Okay, spinning off a cluster is not hard. We did it, we already helped fixing that but there are still other problems. Talking about developer experience, tying it to other environments. Observe a bit, we have more things to solve but it's not just on us. We're building this ecosystem around us that can help you do that. One of the things I'm most impressed with this event is first of all, it's super exciting. Great community of smart people, really contributing. We had Lyft on earlier. I mean, just amazing end user, building out scale, donating it, participating. Kind of a new generation of open source is coming, real hardcore practitioners. We had to build some hard stuff at scale. And you guys, as Google's been doing it for many, many years. But now contributing, these gifts, the gifts of open source are like, it's amazing. How does someone make, I mean, it's a dream for developers. How do developers make sense of it? If you were a young developer, again, just getting into the business, what would you do? How would you attack this? How would you get creative? What would you sink your teeth into? So I think, two things. So first of all, I think it will change a bit the industry and the way we innovate. And because I am a believer that the open source space is faster, okay? That's one thing that we already see, that we have to keep up with everything that is going up in the community. Another thing that I think sometimes we as infrastructure engineers, we forget, this should be boring. Okay, nobody, there are bigger problems to solve. There are other ways to make the world better. And I would love as an engineer, as a software engineer to try and solve those problems. How can we make other processes to have more machine learning, more, you see my eyes, you see I'm excited about, there's so many more interesting things to solve. That's what you guys are enabling. With Kubernetes, that creates that abstraction layer. So I guess the theme going forward is more abstractions and more primitives, declarative primitives, right? Yes. Exciting. We're getting excited here on theCUBE. Ken, you're an inspiration. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and really appreciate it. Tina, it was fantastic. Thank you very much. You get a great shirt on with all the names of all the pioneers and women in tech. Certainly awesome to see the great engineering work you guys are doing, congratulations. Of course, we're doing our part just trying to share that data here, open sourcing the content here on theCUBE at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is theCUBE, I'm John and with Stu, we'll be right back with more live coverage from Austin, Texas after this short break. Awesome.