 Hello. Hello everyone. I have a big audience out all over the US and this group of four of us here today. We are in different places along the eastern seaboard. New York, Boston. So welcome. We do have one in the west. And so welcome everyone east and west. I hope everyone is dealing with the weather. All right. And has decent weather where you are. My name is Chris Robinson. And I work at the University of Boston. BU. Oh, BU. I think there's some BU people in the house. My role today is to connect people from different places, other universities, and we're going to talk about communication access and barriers and how we can break down some of those barriers and the focus today is on the arts. My role today, people from different places. We're going to introduce our other presenters and our panelists. We're going to have a great discussion. So first, I want to talk with the two people on the lower panel here in our, in our panel. It's Annie Wiggend and Kala. I'm going to describe who they are and discuss what their role is here today. Hello, I'm Annie. And I have a lot of different hats in the theater world. But my primary role is I'm a professional lighting designer. And I'm a freelance design. I've been working in the field for over 10 years up and living here in New York. And another hat that I wear. I'm assistant. Professor Gallaudet. Professor Gallaudet. I started a full time there. I started a full time there last spring. And I also, I'm currently, I'm currently doing commuting for that role. And let's see, which, which role I'm discussing next. Another hat that I'm managing the theater of the deaf, your deaf theater. We're teaching artists as well. Roundabout. And I've been a professional designer for places around the country as well. So thank you. Wonderful. Thank you. And now Kala. Hi, everybody. I'm Kala Granger. I've been a theater artist and have had a lot of different roles over the years. I've been a stage manager and actor. I've been worked in administration. I work with access a lot in different theater companies. Right now I'm at Gallaudet. University. I'm an administrative assistant for the multicultural affairs office. And I've worked with a lot of theaters in that area. I'm really happy to be here. I'm a DC based. Right now. But I'm from, I'm originally from Maine. Wonderful. Thank you. Lot of new England folks. All right. And Joey. My introducing yourself and your sign name and all that. Hi, everyone. My name is Joey Cavali. This is my sign name. My pronoun is he and him. And his. Currently I'm in the DC area. And I wear a lot of hats as well. I'm primarily an actor. I'm also a director. And a dazzle. Which stands for director of artistic sign language. I teach workshops. I'm teaching art. And I also work as a carpenter for various theater companies in the region. Very handy man. Master of all trades. Great. Wonderful. So to set up how this discussion will proceed. I want to. First. Give our hearing audience a little bit of a taste. Of what this. Communication will look like how this discussion will go. We have different interpreters. We'll be. Well speaking. Well, the deaf. Panelists and myself will be signing. Each person who is signing on screen here. Joey. Annie. Calla. We'll identify themselves before they. Go and sign. So that when we're having our discussion, the interpreters will be able to. Announce who's talking. So the hearing people who don't rely on their eyes so much can kind of make that mental connection as to who's talking and what they're talking about. When they see the hands moving, then they finally kind of catch up to what's going on, but it's helpful to have the introduction of yourselves when you're talking. As we go, we'll get a little more community. I used to how this flow works. It's important to preserve the communication, make sure our points are clear. Maybe we have to physically move. Maybe we, there's something that's not clear. If there's some kind of issue. Or a visual distraction. You all have permission to kind of remind me that we have a problem and we can resolve that. This is what we're valuing here in this group. We want to make sure communication is clear. We want to make sure communication is clear. We want to make sure communication is clear. This is what we're valuing here in this group. We want to make sure communication is clear. We'll start this discussion now. I'm going to start with a short story to kind of give a framing for this discussion, talking about affirming instead of being negative about changing behaviors. So talking about what's beneficial, how we can improve and instead of how we can, we need to avoid things. Let's look at what we should be doing. So I'm going to introduce my friend here. Who is a PES dispenser. Namely a classic 50, 60s Riddler PES dispenser. For many years, people would see children and adults walking around with these little PES dispensers became popular. And the concept behind it was from many, many years ago, the food and drug administration, the FDA was looking for a way to help people to break their addiction with cigarettes. Because, you know, people are often stigmatized. They wanted to get away from stigmatizing the person who smoked and look for the behavior that causes them to feel addicted and perpetuated the addiction. And those habits that they'd have related to their smoking. So they, you know, if you think of like a lighter when you're smoking, that's a very common behavior that's associated with smoking. So they tried to do something to replace this negative behavior of using a lighter all the time. Instead, when you open it, you get candy out of it. It used to be called peppermints. And it became, I use the word, the German word for peppermints. And it became abbreviated to PES. But, and that's what's happened to replace this smoking habit. So it was brought into the picture to help reduce smoking. That same concept of using something positive to replace something negative instead of trying to avoid a negative behavior applies to today. And what we're talking about, instead of focusing on those negative behaviors and trying to avoid them and being afraid of them, we often cause that problem to, to worsen. Instead, we should be looking on how, how we can focus on how we can improve our behaviors and do new things and better things. So today is an opportunity to get a nice candy. We're looking at how to affirm and, and move in the right direction. So Annie, Carla, Joey, I think we're ready to get moving on this. Let's go. All right. So those of you have seen these discussions for the production and stage managers. The PSM. I want to thank the PSM for helping set this up. Before we get started. And I want to thank for the audience. I want to thank how around who's hosted. They've done a great job setting this up and, and creating a great space for our audience to see it. I want to say thank you to the VRS company, Sorenson. I thank them for supporting this. And I want to also thank my favorite place of business. My favorite place to work, Boston University. I also want to thank the interpreters who you can't see, but you can hear them doing all the work behind the scenes. So the first thing I want to put out for a discussion is in theaters. There are primarily staffed by hearing people. That concept of audience. The sound based audience. Think about an audience being odd being focused on the sound. How does that, that theater companies that are focused on the hearing audiences and have primarily staffed hearing people. How can they better support deaf artists, deaf designers. What is the first thing you can think of that should be improved. To make it more friendly for deaf and hard of hearing folks. So I think Annie looks like she has something ready. So I'll let her take the wheel. So he's asking what's the first thing that should be done. He says yes. Having technical difficulties with the audio. Isaiah can help out with the audio for this. I can interpret this question if it's helpful. So he's going to start a question over again while we get the audio cleaned up. It's a great example of a communication challenge we're talking about here today. Sometimes you have to be patient. That's one thing that's helpful is being patient and go with the flow. But my initial statement was that theater companies, the best thing they can do is be open minded. The big focus on diversity right now. It's a great thing. And there's so many different pieces of this intersection. We're talking about people of color and other different groups that were, we have to consider. And I think being open minded is the greatest way to make sure we're not overlooking those groups. So I think that's one of the things that we need to do. I think that's one of the things that we need to do. I think that's one of the things that we need to do. Call it a just something to add. Yep. This is Kala speaking. I also think everybody is different. And not all people who identify as deaf. Have the same. Needs. So it's really important that the theater company ask. That specific that person. What are their needs. Great. Joey. This is Joey. I'll try to keep this under two minutes and not go on and on. The first thing is that a theater company needs to recognize what the deaf community looks like in their immediate region. Deaf communities in different cities look differently. Some cities don't have a very robust deaf community. But you have to look in. Into what your audience needs. And also what they want. If you have a robust deaf population in your area. Then it's probably a good idea to look around for deaf actors, technicians, designers. A theater company should understand that the deaf community has historically been faced with. Over 200 years of. Neglect oppression. Systematically. And systemically. The ability to gain access to higher education has allowed us to enter into the field of the arts. But I'd like to say that the number of deaf artists has increased significantly in the last year. For example, on Broadway, you'll notice now more deaf actors are on the main stages. With more frequency. Compared to 20 years ago. We're almost unheard of. Yes. Beautiful. And so recognition alone is powerful enough. So we already have. You know, the fact that deaf people are here. We are have we already have deaf people working in the field. We can't ignore them. We can't push them aside. We can't believe they're not here because they are in our space. They share a space with us in the theater. So what we asked was, you know, what was. In that production process, looking back. One thing I want to ask is. Theater production companies, what do they need to do. The first thing we talked about. Related to production process. So let's talk about that what. Rehearsals. That rehearsal process will get to that. Other aspects of the hiring and all that, so let's talk about specifically this, this. Production process. What's your depth perspective on that? What, what things are we overlooking in the hearing space? Joey. Yeah, this is Joey. I'll throw in my two cents. I'll use this moment to speak from the perspective of a director. And yourself or director. Yes, I am a director. So let's talk about the pre production. Period. Before rehearsals begin. I want to ask the theater company to keep an open mind. There may be some accessibility requests that a theater company might be hesitant or apprehensive to providing, for example. The number of interpreters needed. Or the number of deaf actors that are going to be involved in a production. It might seem daunting. They might feel intimidated. But I think it's important that I have faced numerous times in the past. Where theater company is sort of collectively is like, oh, no, we have to work with deaf actors. And they want to avoid some of the challenges as much as they can. There is a, for lack of a better word, a natural. Ignorance. That works itself out. So I know how this process goes. It takes time to grow comfortable. Accessibility is a requirement. There are needs that need to be met. And they do end up working themselves out. I'd like to clarify with you, Joey. It seems like all of you have mentioned. Keeping this open mind. What does that look like to you? I think I don't think a lot of people would say, oh, I'm, you know, I'm scared of. You know, people in the arts are really friendly. I don't think they'd be like really actually afraid of deaf people. So what behaviors are we actually seeing with this hesitation with this? What kind of open mindedness is missing? Because maybe they have, you know, concerns about budgets. Maybe it's related to. Availability of space. Hotel accommodations. What other things. Haven't you mentioned, or haven't mentioned what is this fear? How does it manifest? This is Joey. I'll speak briefly on that. So I worked on a show. Romeo and Juliet, a production of Romeo and Juliet at a community college near Baltimore. I was involved with that production. And initially the people who were higher up at the school, they thought, oh, they could have deaf and hearing actors on stage together. However, many of the people that thought of this grand idea had no idea about deaf culture. It was perhaps the first time that they had encountered a deaf person. So there was some fear of the unknown. And that was apparent from the first day of rehearsal. Oh, what happened? Rehearsal and or pre-production meetings. Basically the first few times that I sat down at the table with them. And they were, I was sharing my interpretation of this version of Romeo and Juliet. Okay. It's a normal feeling to have. Apprehensiveness about the unknown. And at the same time being really excited and enlivened by this new idea. These people in the administration had never worked with deaf artists before. And it's normal for this fear to arise. If they were aware of deaf culture, if they had already met a deaf person before, then that fear would not persist. And it would just turn into a level of comfort. Thank you. I'll get back to you, Joey, about the rest of what you wanted to say. If the folks in New York had something to talk about the frustrations in this production process. I think this is any speaking. I think it's important to remember that deaf actors or artists, you know, we're all cool. And to the hearing, the hearing. Artists and we have the just different experiences, but we, you know, I mean, we might have even higher level of motivation because of our experiences, but we have to have theater companies remember that, but everything will work out and we're equals in this equation. And what Kala said, you know, the question of talking about fear, you know, we're here to help answer questions and to help resolve issues that do arise. And I've learned a lot over the years about compromise and working together in this process. And really collaborating. And I want to keep, you know, lighting shows, of course, so I have to be able to collaborate with people and go through these and explain what I need and different ideas I have and to work through issues. Yeah, you know, you have to collaborate in theater. It is a collaborative process. So it's just another aspect of it, working with deaf artists. Oh, I agree. Colle, do you have something to add? Yeah, this is Kala. I'll add briefly that it's really important to consider including deaf people at all levels of the production process from like the scenic plan, oh, I'm sorry, the season plan and the casting, casting decisions. And don't be afraid to have interpreters for the casting process because you'll, you'll get in this point where you cast a deaf person and then, oh my God, what do I do after I cast a deaf person? So it's important to involve all those things earlier in the process because it's really hard to predict what that deaf person is going to need and think ahead, basically. So if you have a show say that you want to incorporate deaf and hearing actors on stage or deaf designers, it's really important that that whole team have an open mind and be able to adapt from the beginnings of the process and not add the access on later. Beautiful. So let's talk about, Colle, you had mentioned about all these levels, including deaf people on every level. And you mentioned about a play you've been involved in or directed. And the Romeo and Juliet, Joey, you mentioned that. And it felt like, you know, talking about that first scene and getting introduced and right at the beginning of Romeo and Juliet, there's a fight that happens, but so what should hearing stage managers and producers think about? And what do you designers think about really in relation to staging? I mean, that process, it doesn't happen to open night. There's so much that happens ahead of time and how you stage a play. So you had your own interpretation of it. So what did that look like? This is Joey. Okay, staging. Of course, every director has a different way to approach the process. Some prefer to sit back in the house and yell out when they're on stage. Some directors have a more intimate approach. They might go on the stage themselves, talk to the actors, deaf artists, deaf actors. Obviously they can't hear. So if you want to stop them in the middle of some scene work, let's say, it might be beneficial to go up onto the stage and get their attention that way or flash lights. Other hearing actors can hear when hold is called. Everyone calls hold. Yes, the sign hold and it says. From my experiences in deaf productions, the communication needs are higher. And there's a natural level of clarification in the team work. I think it's important to make sure that, maybe a stage manager might call holds in a hearing production, but in a deaf production, when a stage manager calls hold, everyone on stage repeats that sign. Hold, hold, hold, hold, hold until everyone is actually at a hold. And then they continue on with their work. Okay. So it seems like, you know, beforehand you have a discussion and agree about, you know, what communication. What we typically would do. So there's some sticky issues. For example, for directors, you know, hopping up on stage with the actors. Some people feel a little bit off put by that, you know, the directors kind of overstepping their bounds, literally, but. So there's, you know, different approaches to that, but so there's a different approach with F directors where it's more common to be on stage with the actors. Would you say that's a fair assessment? Well, I certainly cannot speak for other deaf directors. I will speak for myself. That it feels more natural to actually go onto the stage with the actors to gain their attention. Okay. Other deaf directors might prefer to. Take a backseat. And give directions from afar. Beautiful. I'll talk to Annie about what she thinks of that, but I was thinking about envisioning that the production managers, how they think. If the director is deaf or hearing. What do we think about? Like physically for the stage in the audience. We have steps up to the stage so that they can access the stage more easily. Because some stages really don't think of it and don't have that setup. So, you know, it's not a lot of money. It's not a lot of connections for the directors. If they wanted to get up on stage or sit back. And lay back and throw information out. Or actually head up to the stage and there should be, you know, easy accessibility. So it would be something that we helpful to plan for. Because otherwise you have this communication delay. You waste a lot of time. It's a simple fix, right? If we have stairs, we have easier access to get up on the stage quickly. It's not a lot of money. It's a little bit of a waste of time. So we have to go back to the stage stairs quickly. So. And you was. I didn't think about that. Think about that. Romeo and Julia fight on stage. Let's see, you're involved as a lighting designer. What do you have to think about? Differently. Different techniques and strategies for communication. Hang that up. Are you talking about like during the fight call? Sure. There's many different situations. And I was using that as a hypothetical, but it's just a use as a framing tool. Standing speaking. Yeah. Well, it is a, it challenged technical process. And getting really into the tech of it and the processing of it. I could talk about this. On end, but without it. Movement needs and communication with deaf actors and artists on stage or deaf technicians, you know, or just general deaf involved in the process. In the theater world. Yeah. The visual that you, the sign for hold teaching everybody that, that's important. And the hearing actors, when you see hold the other, you know, actors do it. So everybody hearing and deaf is all doing it. It becomes, you know, kind of a community effort. I think it's really effective that way. And also it's possible to use lights like I mentioned. To have that kind of flashing lights, but that can be a bit of a challenge. And, you know, the one thing that's important for the stage manager. Or the person that's already kind of focusing on another job has to also think about how to, you know, click to get people's attention with the lights. There might be a delay. So I really think that the best way to do that is to separate the system to have a, you know, the light board. And then also someone else is doing the flashing lights. Like, I think that a separate system and not have it be one person in one. It's a sort of a different direction. Two areas of suggestion. I mean, is it complicated to set up something like that? And then he said, no, it's simple. And this is Carlos. Speaking that it really does also depend on the space that we're talking about a big, preceding theater or a smaller place. You can use things like. Flashlights really, if. If. The room will accommodate that. So you can figure out different problem solving efforts, far away, the audience at the stage, et cetera. And he said, yeah, I agree. Beautiful. I just want to add something. When the hearing audience, you know, they often don't think of that kind of stuff, having those options, having a little light, having just a light switch next to the keyboard. I mean, it would be that simple. Correction managers. It's important to kind of share that information with hearing group. Deaf people are used to lights, right? But the hearing folks have been in so many different rehearsals, so many different processes, and they've never seen that before. And it might think it's an emergency. It might be confused about suddenly a strobe light going off during a rehearsal. So kind of setting up a new ground rule for how to communicate and make sure, I think it's the responsibility of who's producing the show to make sure everyone's on the stage. And everyone kind of feels like they're all part of the same group. They're all in on it. And they can continue to use that approach, use that technology to improve benefit for everyone, even if there's not deaf involved in the show. So if there's nothing else, we'll get on to the next question. Joey, did you have a comment? Yes, this is Joey, if I may. Speaking from a deaf actor perspective. Let's say I am backstage. And I need to know my cue for an entrance. I might have a cue light. That way I don't have to depend on what is being spoken, allowed on stage, but rather I can have a cue light and that will signal my entrance. That's what I usually have set up as a deaf actor. And it's a fairly normal thing. So, so far in discussion, we've talked about making comments and mentioning all the ideas of different approaches, different techniques, related to things that we already have, we already have access to these things. It's not new technology we're adding to a theater, we're not creating, we're not reinventing the wheel here, we're just using what we have and adapting it. So I've not seen anything to be afraid of so far in terms of, you know, logistics or budget or anything like that. So, so you can talk about Romeo and Juliet, Romeo and Juliet again, talking about the fight scene or other scenes in the play where it's very dark, when in a cave, or in the tomb, where it's very dark, those kinds of scenes are. Paula, Annie, do you have any thoughts about how to run a production, that process of hitting those light cues when the light is a little bit too dark for easy communication? Is there a story that's happened to you or a lesson that we can learn from your experiences dealing with low light situations? This is Annie speaking. Honestly, it's good that sometimes you have interpreters on stage or in the wings. And so if you need to hold, or there's a change with because of the dark, whatever you have to interpreter, go to communicate with the person, to let them know. It's kind of, also though with like movement and lights with the flow and everything, you can have the interpreter help explain what's happening in that way. But it can be a little bit sticky with lighting because you have to try to light the show for the audience at the same time, of course. Right, right. So, if you need to do that, you can not bring up all the lights. You don't have to keep consistency in the, in the production and make sure everything looks good. So another solution could be, yeah, bringing up the lights and then doing the clarifications you need and then darken the lights again. But yeah, using the interpreters or doing some lighting. You mentioned interpreters. Being in the wings. I mean, I'm just looking at like a availability of interpreters working with hearing people. Maybe some of this, the cast or state, stage workers, maybe pick up some sign, maybe could agree to develop some sort of process to facilitate communication even without the interpreter available. Is that a dangerous thing or should we always just say, you know what, we need an interpreter here, no matter what. I don't want to, you know, break the law. I have to make sure I have an interpreter if I need to, there to work with the stage cast and crew. Paula. Sure, this is Kala speaking really it depends on the group and the production. If you're talking about like tech rehearsal. That yeah I've had experiences before and shows where we had deaf and hearing actors. And in the space backstage. It was really dark and you couldn't see anything we did have to do. We had to open the doors. On stage for people's entrances. And it sometimes. Two deaf people would open the door and sometimes. A team of one hearing a deaf person would open the door. But it's important to be consistent with how you assign those backstage tasks. So you are you. Know what cues you are responsible for and what cues you are assigned to. I just want to clarify. Thank you. And I'll get to you any in a second. So you're talking about in your experience. You can possibly assign a cue to another actor. To communicate with a deaf actor. Is that right, Carla? Correct. Yes. Okay, great. Annie, go ahead. Yeah. I want to go back to what Paula said. And you can ask to what the deaf actors are willing to do. Maybe the deaf actors are comfortable working with a peer, another hearing actor to help during the tech element, or maybe they have an interpreter that they prefer to work with. Every deaf person has their own preference. So you just have to ask them really. It's not simple. Okay, let's move on to another question. If you give a few examples of common mistakes. A well intention hearing folks make. Related to communication. Annie, you had mentioned you'd worked on a lighting board. During a tech rehearsal, the communication strategies. You know, what, what things have gone wrong and, and how have you been able to resolve this? So the tech process, you mean speaking about that part of it? Sure. Let's focus on that. I'll try to keep it concise here. That's all right. You can, you know, let it all out. Go for it. I've been in this business. Yeah. A long time. I'm still figuring things out, you know, but you know, trying to find the right solution for, for issues, you know, with, in terms of lighting design and the production process. It's very focused on sound, but of course it's hearing based. There are, you know, headsets people use and. Sure. Lighting designers, you know, of course use headsets for communication. And then they have the programmer, you know, there and then the stage manager that like the headsets are used to communicate with all these people back, you know, behind the scenes kind of. There's so many different, so much different communication all happening through headsets. So it's a big challenge for me, obviously. That aspect. So the best solution so far that I've come up with has been, you know, having to speak for myself with the headset. And then I have an interpreter on headset too. And the interpreter will be there with me. And kind of. In my sight line. So that I can, that we can communicate together. The interpreters listening in the headset and telling you what, what's, what's happening. And I'm speaking for myself at the same time as I'm. And then I have the other, you know, the people, the team all, all involved. And that's then the most effective. I've tried testing, you know, voice recognition software and different kinds of solutions, tech solutions. Voice recognition software is a little bit difficult because the microphone still picks up a lot of other sounds in the room. So it's not like a hundred percent reliable. So I mean, I'm, I'm open to, you know, the world of, you know, other people have different ideas, but really the more difficult become designers, the more difficult that you can involve in this field and different kinds of field within the theater world. Maybe, you know, it'll change. But the, right now it's, it's really focused on the. Auditory aspect. Yeah. I would just like to add that as a stage manager, I'd face the same issues with headsets. Of course. Obviously. So what kind of frustrations and solutions have you been able to come up with as a stage manager? Well, again, it really, well, again, it really depends on the space. Sometimes I will sit with an interpreter at the tech table or in the booth. And I can use them for visual cues. We'll tap on each other's shoulders, that kind of thing. We've, we've, we've. We've been able to use like, um, iPad communication with like face time or whatever, but that tends to have technical delays that also might depend on the wifi that's, that's in the space where we face those kinds of technical challenges. Um, I've also worked as, as backstage crew. When I could hear better and I could understand, I could understand what they were saying on the headset, but I could hear that they were saying something. And that was a challenge as well. That's good to know, Annie. I want to add one thing as a lighting designer and in the tech side in the DC area, I worked with a lot of electricians and different, um, spot operators, spot operators. And, uh, it was a challenge with the headsets, but they could hear something was happening, right? So it was like, you know, it was kind of cute to do, um, what they're, what they next had to do. So it was like, I, oh, I, the deaf artists be like, Oh, I've heard something. So I'll go, you know. Um, so that, that, that worked, um, for them, that, that person I worked with there, but it was still a, still challenged that, you know, uh, community face. Joey. Yes, this is Joey. I'll add, um, I'm very good friends with the, the follow spot operator of whom you speak about. Um, she's a very assertive professional person and is always willing to be proactive about, uh, problem solving. So for example, if, uh, she hears something happening, she might look to another follow spot operator to clarify what's going on. Uh, I know that she also usually has a, uh, a problem that's happening while she is running follow spot. One thing that ought to be understood is that deaf people are excellent expert hackers. If any problem, any issue comes up, we know how to solve it. We have a better approach and a better solution to whatever is in front of us. So hearing people may not know how to solve the solution for communication with, uh, deaf professional coworkers, but if you ask them, they will have a solution for you. Just as Kala mentioned and Annie mentioned, it's very simple. You just ask. Great. So. I think we should ask sometimes hearing people, um, become very creative. Um, we focus on our creativity and get this technology. We set it all up and we hook everything up and get all the wiring going. And we're really excited about that. And we feel like we've done a great job. And we want to give you a surprise, you know, here's some technology to help you. Um, is that good or dangerous to, you know, what's your experience with, uh, hearing production and stage managers kind of taking the initiative, not asking, but just going it for it and setting something up on your own. And, um, you know, I mean, I think it's great that, uh, I mean, again, it's, it's important to have a collaborative team. And if, if, uh, you know, hearing team wants to, uh, surprise us with something, we need to communicate, you know, beforehand, but. Right. We have an idea. They could say, you know, what do you think these are our ideas. Um, just don't, you know, have them offering like, here's a solution done. I mean, it's, it's important that the hearing, uh, team collaborates with us and collaborate. Right. Calla. Yep. I just wanted to add that. Yes. I definitely agree with that. Sometimes a lots of. Hearing people think they have the solution and they buy equipment that they think is the solution. And then we realize, oh, we just place it all that money. Cause it doesn't work. This is Joey, just to. You know, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to do that. You know, but I'll just have to tackle something else. No deaf person is the same. And perhaps you've worked with a deaf artist or a technician or designer before. And you are accustomed to working with them, but the solutions for that person may not, uh, accommodate the next deaf person that you run into. And they may have different needs or preferences. Great to know. So it seems, I mean, it's a good idea to be involved. And have people at different levels of, we have deaf people want to be involved. We want hearing people to be excited and assertive about communicating and accommodating. And I think it would be a wonderful theater company who could bring interpreters for everything. I mean, that would be and think that they've solved all the communication problems by, you know, is that right? Is that how they do it? Just fill the place with interpreters and call it a day? So related to the issue of interpreters, what have you learned with hiring interpreters, bringing interpreters into the theater for rehearsals or during the production process? Is that a fix? They just hire any interpreter, bring an interpreter in, call it a day? Annie, what do you have to say? Yeah, you probably saw my expressions when you talked about interpreters and maybe call it too. But it's a situation that we're still figuring out. There's no right or wrong answer to the question really. And I don't know where to start. Oh my gosh. We'll start with, okay, they bring an interpreter in. Okay. You know, it's a great benefit to have an interpreter, but what does that look like for your work? How does that, you know, if they haven't checked with you or does it, do they need to make sure they're checking with you? Obviously, we prefer to have an interpreter who has knowledge of the theater and experience in that world. And just to know at least, you know, basic theater terms like upstage and downstage, stage right, stage left, like even that kind of terminology, those kind of terms are really important for us. And so we need to have interpreters that are aware of them. And then also, when you think about working with an interpreter, you know, it can really delay the communication process even more so if they don't understand the terminology, it can be a lot of confusion. And in terms of light, lighting design, that's kind of twofold because there's specific, you know, there's vocabulary to the lighting design world that's very specific and technical and in depth. And, you know, you need to have a knowledge of that too. There's specific group of interpreters that I work with because they know my vocabulary, both theater terminology and in the lighting design terminology. Okay. So I do prefer interpreters that, you know, have that. So I do tell theater companies these interpreters I would prefer to work with. And it just helps the communication process be a little smoother. And I could talk a lot more about that, but I'll let someone else take a turn. Yeah, let me see if I can get a little more information about that. So can interpreter just, you know, Google theater terms and look them up and they'll be ready or they got it and they're good to go. And then you think they'll be ready to get out in the theater world and apply all those terms really easily or. What often happens, what are the mistakes that happens? What's the lingo? What are the linguistic challenges of working in theater? What lingo would they struggle with, you think? And it's ready to take over here. We'll have that joy. Okay, this is Joey. Okay, some interpreters can pick up on the lingo fairly quickly Google is a tool. But you have to understand that as a deaf artist, the deaf artist is already very adept at their work and in the process of working in the theater, and they know all of the vocabulary. So it's quite a strain to wait for an interpreter to catch up and pick up on what's being talked about if you have an interpreter that is ready to go knows what's happening. Then everyone can work in tandem, and specifically the interpreter and the deaf artist it makes the process so much easier. Okay. I know that many of us deaf artists are very understanding in the context of where we're working geographically regionally there are various ways to get interpreters through agencies or otherwise. I once worked on a show where the theater company had already signed a contract with an interpreter. There were rather two interpreters they provided two interpreters which was great. I arrived at the theater and I realized that both of the interpreters that were provided were not, were not great. It's not necessarily that they didn't have enough experience. Each of them had 30 years of interpreting experience. It just wasn't the best quality for the context. But some interpreters like that it's a fair it's not an uncommon problem, especially in the industry. But the biggest issue with the situation specifically is that the theater company had already signed this contract ahead of time. So when I went to file a formal grievance through my chain, I found out that they were bound to this contract. The theater company was stuck in a difficult situation. Okay. So let me ask about contracts and terms of the contracts and negotiating those contracts. We were talking about with interpreters just a moment ago, but the cultural culture of expectations, you know, usually want to swap out and make changes. But theaters and interpreters that field. You know, you think about the different core fields of interpreting, there's medical and legal and different other types of things ethically that we have to look for. But it can cause problems for you in the theater world is in the as a deaf artists dealing with interpreters. A good example would be Joe is talking about having that contract. Nothing against contracts, but it should have something included in the contract talking about that, you know, how well you can communicate and access have access through that interpreter. This is Joey transparency is important. You want to make sure that when you are arranging for accessibility and accommodations to work with your deaf artists make sure to check with the client first with the deaf artist in the room. Do that before you put anything on paper before you sign anything just from the beginning of the process. You can have all sorts of discussions and negotiations with an interpreting agency, for example, but always make sure to go back and check with a deaf artist and have a conversation about. Hey, we're providing two interpreters. Here are the interpreters names. Here is a little bit about their experience. Would you like to meet the interpreters ahead of time over a Skype call let's say. And if all of that is agreeable, then go ahead and have a contract with either direct hire interpreter or with an agency. Great. Beautiful. Oh, any. Thank you, Sammy speaking for me. My process is a little bit different. I mean, basically, I tell theater companies what I need I make suggestions, and give them a list, you know, for example, my next show will be a Milwaukee preparatory theater on that will be next March opening, opening March. Thank you. But they're cheesehead fun really excited and looking forward to that project. And then, you know, communicating with them and but every situation is different. And they're going to provide one of my preferred interpreters with a local interpreter so I'm able to have one that I prefer and then another one that's in the community and I have a, you know, they are willing to provide that access. At the same time, giving good quality and assurance that the quality will be will be good. And it'll be high because, you know, there's only a limited number it's like three interpreters that really know the lighting design terminology so but again there's a lot of different ways to do it and all different options. Yeah, I would just like to add the same thing. It's easy for me just to provide the list of interpreters that I know are good but if it's a place that I haven't worked before that might be a bit of a stickier problem. It's really important to network within the community to make the process more efficient. Make sure that the interpreter knows theater vocabulary or the vocabulary that's specific to the to the department within theater. You know you start with the first, the first area of basic theater term terminology and then specialized to each department. You know work, I think, responsibility falls on the, on the, the deaf folks who are working in this field. So what what can the production side the, what kind of things kind of stacks that that they can help kind of level the workload because you guys are taking on so much communication and doing all this stuff but what can they do. Any, this is any speaking yeah I can provide the like production side of it that perspective. You know the. I know I know from my perspective that budgeting is also a big issue for interpreting and honestly like hiring includes hiring a lot more people. Working with deaf artists you have to bring in, bring in extra people that's what that means. So, you know the first step is about time with your when you're, you know, working with deaf artists, you have to really work on the timeline in terms of starting way far in advance to start your planning and do it and do your research, you know, find solutions and talk with your, your contractors start write some grants, start doing budget planning and everything far in advance and don't be afraid to ask your deaf artists, you know, or ask donors and ask for funding and maybe include them, your deaf artists in the marketing as well, and say, Oh, we're really happy to spotlight our deaf talent and we want them to work with us but we want your help to allow them to be able to work with us, you know, and and really starts that process far in advance that's why I say it includes time, but Joey also mentioned locations, you know, like areas different communities and cities. There's more accommodation and access than others depending on your region and the size of the city, things like that. And that can be a challenge to think about as well in terms of local interpreters if you where your theater is. It's mindful that when you're talking about local interpreting agencies and access, you know, maybe some communities really have no idea what the needs are for deaf artists, and then, you know, having to work with the community and try to, you know, work with the agency. Sometimes, you know, agencies want to charge an arm and a leg and the companies don't know, or theater companies don't realize what that system is like. It's in some other places are really cut and dry, but oftentimes there's negotiations that are going to be involved. But you can you can ask other other people their opinions you can ask, you know, ask around and ask in your town in your community to get other quotes and other ideas. Joey. Yeah, this is Joey. When you're talking about how a theater company might be able to take some of the burden off of a deaf artist. One of the best solutions for me is to have a deaf person in the administrative branch of the company for me as an actor. If I know that a theater company has already hired a director of artistic sign language DSL or dazzle. I know that we are already in good shape, because the dazzle is there to help work out those kinks in terms of how to set up the rehearsal room and the process and the accommodations that is their role. Calla knows from working at mosaic theater company. As the access coordinators at right. So she was responsible to make sure that there was accessibility provided for deaf audiences. Oh, Yes, just wanted to add on to that note that it would be great if we had a deaf person at that admin level but if you don't you can hire a consultant or as Joey said a dazzle. I worked for dog and pony theater in DC. That had both, and it would be good if they will be able, they could try to help the hearing staff be more aware of deaf accessibility issues of deaf culture. And that sort of spread spreads throughout the whole theater company so that in general people are more aware. Right, right. And we hear this audience this group here online. We want to hear from those people related to the howl round. And they have many, many names, a long list of names and pictures. Full webinars of these folks. There's a list of dazzles who, so there's a list of folks who do this kind of work. You might have to find you know which theater company already has experience working with deaf artists. And those theater companies. You know, I've already learned and changed and adapted. Their experiences as well. So from any Joey and Kala, I've noticed from your comments that you're not recommending. You know that they call an agency to provide interpreter to for counseling and advice about providing equal access. You're not. Often hearing theater companies think that an ASL interpreter is a certified person who can have a little experience with interpreting who knows will take care of my show my Romeo and Juliet show be perfect. They'll take care of A to Z that interpreter, they will cover everything is that a dangerous thought to think the interpreter is just going to cover everything. Because I think they're hearing they're hearing theater companies think, oh, well I have a hearing interpreter. Is that good enough. Is that a disappointment and frustration is that a problem. Please be honest where we want to get this clarified. This is Joey, I'll say something. It's a tricky situation. There is also an advocate for us as deaf artists. It's nice to have people who are supportive of the idea of including deaf artists in the process. There is a fine line between advocacy and taking away the agency of someone else of disempowering them. We're sort of replacing them as an advocate who speaks for the oppressed. So there's a fine line in the advocacy. I will say again, every deaf community is different. For example, in the DC region. The deaf community is very strong. There is Gallaudet University right here in the city. And there is a plethora of deaf people in leadership in various fields all over this region. There are some other states where the deaf community may be large but people are not in leadership. The advocacy is a little weaker and lacking. And so oftentimes you will run into those hearing advocates even more in those regions. I highly suggest that a theater company invites the deaf person to the table and allows them to speak for themselves. If you have a hearing advocate in the room and you notice that they're starting to speak for the deaf people, just be mindful that can be a tricky situation. And make sure that they are also creating power and space for the deaf artist. Okay, yeah, in related to power, we're talking about money. It's, I think, equal to power often. We've talked about having deaf artists, deaf designers and folks in the tech side of things. That whole group of people who kind of follow you, you have your interpreters and all these folks who are supporting the budget. We're talking about, you know, talking about ahead of time, you know, people hire deaf people, they're concerned about the budget issues. So what can you share about this, the money related to access? What's the financial, is it really terrible? Is it something that, is there a lot of sticker shock related to that? What would you say about that? I'll go back a little bit to that previous statement about, I said, what I talked about time, you know, and that is related to funds, but I want to be clear, you know, interpreting agencies have a specific way of working. Sure. So sometimes their, their actions and then the theater's funding doesn't always fit. I was surprised when I was right out of grad school, I was all excited, I'm a professional designer, I was ready to go. And I got general manager emailed me and said, I have to pay the interpreters more than you, but they were, they were shocked. And that was my first experience really hit me. And what the interpreters getting paid more than me, wow, okay. And that was like 1011 and 12 years ago or something. And to navigate through that experience, you know, going back to my preferred, you know, method, I will suggest, and put out suggestions with working with individuals, rather than agencies that's one thing I do recommend working directly with interpreters rather than going through. But every deaf person, of course, is different and I have my own solution that I would offer. Yeah. And Joey has his collar has theirs. So everybody, everybody is different. But appreciate that. Yeah. So I guess, go ahead. So Joey, did you want to give your take about that budgeting and interpreting and how to manage and juggle that. Interpreters are expensive. Full stop. It should be understood that the interpreting business model like any mentioned is very different from a theater's business model. If you are taking the salaries of designers and actors, etc. And you break it down to look at the rates of those theater professionals versus interpreters, the rates of interpreters trump those in the theater realm. Unfortunately, this is a well known and wide problem. Okay. To try and negotiate with an agency with a company can be very difficult to do. Because an agency has their model set. If you're going to ask to provide interpreters at a lesser rate, it's not going to happen. Sometimes it may be better for an theater company to have a negotiation with a direct hire interpreter. And if you're working with an individual professional, they may be willing to negotiate a discounted rate. But I will say the practice of getting interpreters on boarded and assigning them. If you have two interpreters that you've gotten for everyday use during a rehearsal or tech process, and one of them is sick or injured, then the theater company needs to find a substitute or replacement for the interpreter that can't make it to that day. And that substitute interpreter is going to charge a higher fee a premium for a last minute job. It's important to secure your interpreters at least two weeks in advance for all of the dates. The madness of finding interpreters and assigning them to different tasks is is is just that madness. The agencies that is what they do that is they have their own schedulers and take care of that madness. They wouldn't necessarily have to worry about it if you just wanted to keep paying them to take care of the scheduling. So, yes. But as I mentioned, deaf people are expert hackers. And he had a brilliant solution to her issues. She was able to navigate and be the captain of her own ship on the sea in terms of accommodation, the sea of accommodations. And she was on that ship, knowing where to go. Awesome. So, talk a little bit more about your experience working with other hearing members of the production group. If they're able to sign, how does that help your process. If they're capable of signing those hearing folks are kind of motivated to learn sign and communicate directly. And speaking of, we have, there are two assistant designers. They sign with me and they, they don't sign, you know, fluently, you know, they finger spell the both hearing hearing. They sign just a little bit, they're kind of beginning signers, but I have been in situations where theater companies, you know, they say, Oh, do you want to have an assistant like interpreter to and it's different. My job, I need to focus on my, my job and have an assistant that's helping me with my job, not like assistant who's, you know, interpreter, you know, I want those things to be separate and have to make that clear to station. Okay, not kind of doing a slash roll of two things at the same time you want your assistant to be assistant your interpreter to be the interpreter got it. I have, you know, two assistants because maybe if they're not incredibly fluid signers. They could, you know, information I may be missing or we can try to recognize what's what's happening in terms of our communication in the room and then also, maybe they could catch things that my interpreter miss because I have extra kind of assistant. They use their little, you know, but a sign to try to tell me communicate things with me privately. And so I have those two people with me, because we have a relationship now we've developed that. And I'm sure maybe color has had similar different situations as well but of like peers in the business that sign a little bit. And sometimes hearing assistants or letting designers systems for people in the productions. They'll find that hell I can sign or I can pick it up as you know, during the production they start to learn and by the end they're a little bit better but why not take the time to learn ahead of time. And so how can we represent ourselves better so often directors will overlook. You know we put in there that we have in the resume I have experience working with deaf actors. Often they don't recognize that or don't notice that so a theater company is looking for an interpreter said oh that person. It's a stage manager who has a signing background well we'll just bring them in that's, is that a, you know, they can pay them. You know, they can have a signing interpreter so they can, you know, save money by keeping it in in the theater and so it's kind of a two boxes at once. You know, I hired one deaf artist. When I hired two or three or four or five. They're less reliant on that third interpreter to run around so if everyone is is you're creating a science space everyone can sign like the stage manager is deaf then we have deaf artists working with a manager is deaf and you don't need interpreter for that interaction. So you know if theaters in the Boston area are becoming very creative in how to offer value. You get the most other interpreters. So sometimes not getting the full worth out of it. You know interpreters traveling back and forth through rehearsal. You know, the way of parking fees for them might be helpful. Sometimes interpreters. You know any call the interpreter from a different area to come. You know, the theater company making, you know, a bed available so that they can stay instead of having to commute and it will save some money. Maybe including food in the budget, you know, you know, instead of having food for 10 people can have food for 12 people. So kind of offer a deal for the interpreter so reduce some of those extra cost interpreters have to come out to cover and and you can negotiate something to make it more affordable to have interpreters. So I want to thank Joey and Annie and call us for kind of opening our minds about what what options we have to be able to do that. Time is flying. We're really rich content here so this is great. And go back to that fear and turning that into a positive affirming and healthier experience so I know I'm really thinking about that fight call for Romeo and Juliet I keep coming back to that but hearing people think about that liability issue insurance. During a fight call, you know if a deaf person is on stage when you have sharp objects being flung around. How do we address hearing folks concerned about, you know what strategies can we do or say about how we address the concerns that hearing people have about liability of having deaf people on set. You know, feel like I don't want to deal with a concern about liability, and maybe they don't want to hire deaf people for that reason, how do you address that. Joey. This is Joey. I think that fight choreography with deaf people is doable. Absolutely. You can do it. Fight choreographer who says oh well we need to have auditory cues and that's the only way to do it they're lying. I believe that most production managers are aware and fight choreography as well that it's a slower process, because the number one priority is safety. Fight choreographers. Right. They already know they have their steps in their queuing system of 1234. Okay, let's go back and do that again. 1234. Deaf artists. Deaf artists already have an innate ability of visual acuity as well as muscle memory and they will be able to pick up on that and develop their own communication with a choreographer who's communicating like that. And in some cases, the deaf actors are better at the hearing actors and picking up on those visual and physical cues. Sure. Yeah. I can predict that stuff that's coming so. Annie. Yes, on the setting, speaking related to safety. Joey was talking about. There were hackers, you know, deaf people were hackers. And we're very aware of our surroundings as deaf individuals. So, when I'm working with focus and whatever is happening, you know, if it's in the dark, for example, and we have to develop a system with my interactions in terms of, we don't really need to communicate when we're fixing the lights, necessarily. It's less of a need for an interpreter because you're, you know, it's less, less bodies on stage and it makes it more safe. Sure. So, so we all, you know, figure it out in terms of solutions to match our needs really. Great. We can talk about the rehearsal process now, for example, read throughs. Table reads. What techniques or ideas do you use during table reads or table work or reading throughs. And some of your rehearsal experience other productions you've been in any thoughts you have. Table reads or even production meetings, design meetings, those kind of things. Joey. Do you mind repeating the question? Talking about like, how do you, how do you manage that space in table reads, rehearsals, the early stuff where you're really just doing design meetings. Joey, go ahead. Okay. And the rehearsals, not so much. There's two things that seem to be common. Having a cue light of some kind. As well as a video screen or a monitor so you can see what's happening on stage. Sure. I think in maybe one or two cases in my personal memory. There was actually a TV monitor on stage. If I can explain. That was in the house above the audience. So for example, I as a deaf actor, if I'm downstage, I can look at the monitor to see what's happening behind me upstage. Oh, wow. And I have some personal experience working with some of you and sometimes we'll have, you know, the play rate right there in the room. Sometimes we'll be changing lines while you're doing the read through and going over it. So make sure the deaf artists are aware of the line replacements and the changes that are being made while we're doing these table reads. Any thoughts about that? Have you ever experiences with that? Joey, go ahead. Yes, I know what you're talking about. Sometimes in some cases a playwright or let's say we're all sitting around doing table work and we might have a read through. A playwright wants to change or we're going through notes and a playwright wants to change one word and one particular sentence on page. It's whatever. It's difficult for a deaf artist to take those notes as well as mark them in their script because visually they're looking up at the person giving the notes and back down at their script. And it can get confusing very quickly. So we developed a really simple solution, which was that we projected a version of the script in the room. So if there was a line change, they say, okay, everyone look at the projection to see the line change. We look at that, we write it down in our script, problem solved. That's super easy. Just have a laptop and a projector. That's it. This is Annie speaking for me with the design process and the creative team when we get together to discuss ideas way before the rehearsal start. It can be a challenge sometimes, because you know, maybe we have designers or directors or different people, you know, working together and the creative team and trying to communicate all together in different places. It can be overwhelming and emails, you know, hard to read through all of the different thoughts and emails can be, yeah, sometimes this can be a challenge as part of the process. And then sometimes there's not funding to help resolve the issues we need resolved. And sometimes we'll have to use a relay service, VRS, you know, for interpreting for during the like phone calls. And actually, you know, the video relay service is actually a. You say that one more time is free from the government that it's no cost it's automatically provided. Can you explain the RS one more time because I think all the hearing people just jumped out of the chairs you said something was free. It's video relay service, the RS abbreviation, and it's a service that's provided where they're interpreters that have headsets and they, you know, interpret and between hearing and deaf folks. And, you know, they have a calling centers. And it can be whatever you know if you're calling someone's like principal or you're calling social security or whatever it's just everyday life, you know, whatever phone call you make when I have to call my mother. So, and you talked about like this being sponsored by Sorenson that's one of the people that are supporting this. That's a VRS company. And so if I need to have a design conversation. You know, to give the interpreter kind of a heads up if I'm using VRS I'll say hey we're going to be talking about. You know, there'll be different three or four different people calling in if I'm talking about a creative team meeting I'll give them a heads up interpreter and say hey we're talking about this play on the lighting designer. You might hear this word. You know, it's going to be okay if you don't know this terminology like, you know, kind of having that conversation with the VRS interpreter ahead of time. And then also warning my, you know, creative team as well and say hey just so you know, this is going to be happening through an interpreter this call, and let them know what it'll be like. It was, it does, it does work though. Beautiful. And then another, a couple other, you know, free solutions would be video, like using zoom this system or Skype. Yeah, or FaceTime, you know, to do, to do a video call. There's also messaging apps, different programs and apps where you can do different chats. Like, there's also this sort of Slack, if you're familiar with it where you can message group messaging, but it does require some, well, openness and willingness from the other members of the creative team to make it happen. Sure. As much as, you know, you want to be involved in the process I love when people really want to collaborate and work together and coordinate together. But it's tough to have people working on a scene from all over geographically said to be kind of creative with your solutions. Because of course, face to face is always best but of course, I was just checking my time. Hi, this is Kala. I just wanted to add to what Annie said, one good way to reduce the amount of emails. If you're working on like a script together, do it in a Google doc where everybody can share one document instead of trying to send 60,000 emails. And in terms of production meetings, there's a thing that can happen where everybody's talking over each other. And then with interpreters, you have to identify who's talking. So it's good to have that kind of structure in a production meeting so that people are talking at the same time. I mean, that they're talking at separate times and that they identify themselves before they communicate. Right, right. As an interpreter myself, I thank you for that comment. And I love you for that because often, well first, really simple answer is, we listen to this presentation. We can see this right we see how this model works we're all taking turns. It allows actually a much simpler, smoother, clearer communication and conversation. Instead of this kind of popcorn, where everything is happening over one another over one another and later you can kind of figure out that we had a mistake or misunderstanding because folks were talking, you know, we've missed something on the budget or something got messed up back when we're all talking over one another. So the communication for hearing people it's actually something that they do often and creates a lot of mistakes so it's quite a benefit to have us turn taking any mentioned using VRS as a benefit. You can have an interpreter in person or online through this VRS process, but they might not be skill with the theater vernacular so it's not that they're not professional but it's a very intimate thing to have. And as we hearing and deaf both make kind of have our own slang or own code or own words that we use in our production. ROJY. What's ROJ we don't know what that means while we're talking about Romeo and Juliet and you know Romeo and Juliet we have to say Ro and J. Like I don't know what you're talking about but if we had the context you know the actors would know the actors in the show know Romeo. Often because say the show is Ro and J a row and people get so confused if you bring an interpreter from the outside through video relay or other things so it's important to include that like a Google Doc or something so that when we're using these kind of code words or abbreviations or acronyms or highly contextualized vocabulary. And make it sound a little more like English so that so that folks from the outside can understand it and it'll be beneficial for your interpreters. So if you, if you go talk about what your best working experience is with hearing director. What has been the best experience that you had you remember a great collaboration that you've had in the past. Honestly, 80% of my work has been with hearing theater companies. And those shows weren't really related. But going back to, you know, wanting to tell a story that's the point where we're telling a story on the stage that's my that's, I think I'm passionate about I care about I'll make sure the story is told. And one of my favorite memories was doing this show called into the breaches. It was Alabama Shakespeare Festival is last year. And it was a wonderful production just an amazing company all around. And we were in the process and tech and something happened. There was a moment we were kind of stuck on in the show. We were having an issue with an actor was supposed to exit in anger, you know, the door was supposed to slam, and it was supposed to be like audible sound we heard the doors slam and the sound designer had to queue for the door, you know, but it didn't sound right they were they were struggling with it and they were like, Oh, it doesn't feel right. It is just a lot of deliberation about this. And it was like 1015, I don't know 20 minutes we were sitting here really going into this discussion. And I asked what about a fully door. A fully, you know, it has a sound to sound thing, you know, specific kind of door. Yeah, one of those little ones the handle on it. All of them looked at me and they said, Oh my gosh, what a great idea. The deaf person because of the best idea for a sound cue. Exactly. And then we had had a fully door. They had, you know, they saved that they brought in and they tested it and it worked perfectly when they did the slam and everybody was all excited and it just I love that happened in a deaf, you know, artist in the room I offered a suggestion for a sound issue. Beautiful. I love that because some hearing people, you know, kind of in that process, I don't have experience working with that people. I think there's a lot of assumptions that get made they was I don't want to offend the deaf person I don't want to involve them in this discussion because it's about sound so you know to sound technical means I just want to invite the deaf person. I think, yeah, it's probably better to ask, Hey, are you interested in coming to this meeting about sound cues, and then left the deaf people decide if they're interested or not. And I personally love work. Oh, yeah, I personally love working with sound designers. I really like that collaboration process so you know sometimes the two of us, we kind of geek out together, you know, figure out how the sound and lights will really go together really well and how the, the cues are going to, you know, work. The exact amount of seconds we have and how we're going to follow I mean we go into like really depth discussions about it during that process so it's a lot of fun. That's awesome. That's beautiful. Annie and Joey are one thing company here in Boston, the speakeasy stage company. I think every state have a speakeasy but the one in Boston anyway. They love working with you guys. And I've called you again and again but they developed a really interesting process. I'm Google form with different blank fields for interpreters. So what you do is you, you know, put your name, the date of the rehearsal, the date of the show. And everything all the details are in there and then theater can put that out to offer. And send that out to interpreters and you get responses so quickly and they fill up those. You know, the deaf people benefit and the interpreters love it too because they reply to what they can do instead of, you know, you get like a list of requests. Instead of that you get one request with all the dates and times in it. I would make a short video too on YouTube, I believe, with Annie describing who you are and that was put in there so the interpreters get the email to see what kind of consumer they're working with. Okay, it's a deaf person there. They can kind of make that connection ahead of time so they know that they can, you know, they feel comfortable. They know what to negotiate. They know that they have experienced deaf artists and the interpretation work well informed to a good benefit so that's a nice thing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We love that. It's really, it's worked to smooth things out it's been lovely so. Starting with deaf professional technicians, you know, like if you're the only deaf person in the room, for example, but if you're working with other deaf people. What are the different roles that you have experienced in theater so enjoy yourself your director in a hearing theater company. But what other roles is it important to have there for deaf people in that production. This is Joey. In every production that has a deaf actor. It's greatly beneficial to have a director of artistic sign language, or a dazzle. What do they do. Can you explain that a little bit. Well other states or regions might call them an ASL consultant. But I'll speak to what a dazzle is a dazzle helps with the translation of the lines from English going into American sign language. So they oversee and help with the translation of those lines they work directly with the actor if the actor is hearing and has to sign they will also work with that hearing actor if it's a deaf actor. That also has to sign again the dazzle work with that deaf actor on their signing translation. And that will help with the integrity of the artistic process and for the performance as well. If the show is set in a specific period let's say it's a period piece or let's say it's a very specific regional piece. Then the dazzle another role or responsibility of theirs is to make sure that the translation matches the period or the geography appropriately in terms of the of the product of the translation. The dazzle will also help to oversee interpreted performances working with the interpreting team. If an actor is struggling with their lines specifically the lines that are signed in ASL then the dazzle will may also work one on one with that actor. Okay. To work on their lines instead of having that go to someone else that's right. I'll critique their work. The biggest benefit is that a dazzle can help fill in the need for serving a hearing audience. Oh excuse me. I mean a deaf audience. For example, the dazzle can be the deaf eyes in the room. Even if they're sitting in the house somewhere they might physically be the pilot audience and say hey in this one moment in this one scene the signing is not clear and they'll have a conversation. With whomever they need to discuss that with so that fixes are made. The dazzle in some sense is is almost serving as a dramaturg and in other cases almost like a choreographer. Okay, beautiful. That's great. So related to this group this audience here of production directors. It's kind of build time into the rehearsal process for the one on one time. Fight choreography kind of building time in for that for the schedule to make sure that we're clear. Kind of not to expect to just get up and sign everything to be super perfect and everything immediately successful there's there's some things that need to be done right. And I think it's also important for the staff to knows to use their eye their eye gaze more hearing stage managers actors, often we kind of sound we're not looking. So kind of mentally check out we're not looking what's going on. During your time working with deaf artists, try to be aware of eye gaze. People, you know, get worn out quickly, certainly. So it's important to use that time to be aware of that and give people kind of deaf, deaf people a time mental rest to because hearing people can check out will hear, you know, they can talk and kind of check out but deaf people have to watch everything that's happening they have to be on the interpreter the whole time. And they're, you know, they get exhausted. It's something to be mindful of and sensitive to to give deaf folks break as you're going through these long rehearsals. And I mean I see I've seen it and you've seen it to where, you know, that folks kind of have to put up with kind of going along with it and trying their best to hold on with interpreters just going going and going and I think that leads to burnout and exhaustion more quickly. So if we are in the home stretch here, or nearing the finish line so I want to thank you for putting the time in and coming here and being with us. What is your feeling about representation. The issues that are obvious here that seems that representation. You know, one African American in this field, having this discussion, you know your identities, I'm not sure of all the identities that you maintain but deaf persons of color in this field. Do you have any thoughts about that who you've worked with. Who's inspired you, who's influenced you, who's learned from, give me names of folks or stories or things that you have about, you know, other folks. Joey. This is Joey. One of my longtime mentors since college is Monique Holt or Momo Short. She is a person who's Asian. She's a director and an actor. She's been in this business a very, very long time. She is a pioneer in many different ways. In the deaf community, there is a social hierarchy. And the deaf community also has sexism and racism and other isms on various levels. And then into the arts industry. Let's say deaf theater specifically. We do face similar situations where the opportunities for people of color are not enough. And also not enough people of color are getting work. This reflects in representation as well. It's a very similar situation to education. The educational opportunities are not enough. So it's a very similar situation in the deaf community and outside of it. Yeah. Great. Thanks to add Kala. Yeah, this is Kala speaking. Yeah, I do think that overall similar problems exist. So I think that's kind of the focus of the conversation. I think that's very much the focus that's been emphasized backstage and in the admin and design. Fields that there do seem to be more white folks there than there are people of color. That's true. I'm not saying it's completely, you know, that way. I mean, of course I have worked with people of color in all of those areas, but I do seem to think that that area doesn't have much of a. Other people, there's, there's Michelle. Thanks. Thanks. That's a person of color, a deaf individual. Raising the son at Gallaudet University. And wow, she, her list of accomplishments and accolades is incredible. Her experience is just exceptional. Very rich history. I just wanted to give her a shout out. Oh, yes, she's wonderful. I appreciate that. I think we have a great discussion. Is there any thoughts you things you think we really should get out there. We haven't really talked about stuff we haven't touched on yet. Waiting for your. A few seconds here to think about that. And if you have something you want to touch on. Annie. Maybe I, you know, I mentioned it a few times during this conversation, but I did want to recognize the need for patients. They wanted to highlight. You know, with the communication. It, you know, requires patients. And for me specifically the tech process, you know, I've been in a situation where there's a lot of pressure on me because I'm trying to work fast and I am working fast. But the communication part is sometimes, you know, a slow down. For example, you know, I have to explain like my interpreter is there and I have to maybe talk about it. Maybe like, let's say like a new idea, a new look, and I'm trying to explain it and interpreter is following me and is voicing for me. And then, you know, I also have to think and maybe look at the setup and, and continue to think while I'm looking around visually. And then maybe I have to discuss with my assistant and then have to communicate with my programmer. Like there's all these different parts of it before decisions and changes are made. And then I'll maybe ask, you know, that's, that's all part of the process that all those steps of communication and it's does require additional time. Then a hearing light, like a designer. So, you know, it's, it's a natural, a natural part of it that just requires some, some patience. And really all through all deaf artists, I think, right? Carla agrees. I think that had Joey, your face. I thought you had something to say. I'm sorry. In terms of Andy's remarks or to your question. I just, your last thought, I thought you had something you wanted to get in closing something we were waiting for that we hadn't touched. Is there something you wanted to say else? Sure, this is Joey. Gosh, I'm trying to keep it short. We can go on a little more. Looking at the state of theater companies currently all over the United States, we're having lots of conversations about diversity and inclusion. Oftentimes disability is left out of those conversations. That's disappointing. We have a lot of resources. We have a lot of friends who need work. People who are ambitious, willing to roll up their sleeves and get the job done. All that it takes is a point of outreach. That's the first step is to reach out. And if you do the work of reaching out to people and even just asking for ideas and opinions, hey, what do you think about if we do it this way? The work can be mentally and emotionally exhausting and taxing to do that. And it's the same when a deaf artist is tasked with trying to reach out and offer solutions without ever being asked to do so. Even those that are working backstage, we might start to feel that we are the burden in the room. And when I am tasked with creating a story on the stage, I don't also personally want to be thought of as being the burden in the room while I'm trying to do my job. Considering season planning, let's say, you don't have to always find a play that has a character written to be deaf. When you are doing season planning, as you're looking over different options, ask yourself, is it possible to make this character work if we were to hire a deaf actor to do it? And you might be surprised to find that much more depth is being brought to this character. One of my dreams, let's say, if I'm the only deaf person working on a project or I have a friend who is the only one in an entire collaborative process who is deaf, that might be a common experience, but it's always a beautiful thing when more than one of us is in the room as part of the process. If you've got an actor and also a technician. Why does that add value? What makes that better? It certainly adds value. It's valuable because if you only have one deaf person in the room, they are apt to feel like a token. It's a classic tokenism. If you've got two people in the room, maybe you're meeting a quota. When you start to have three people, four people in the room, there is a shift in the dynamics. I was once involved in a production where, well, it was not a full production, it was more like a workshop. I believe there were seven different artists involved in the collaborative, creative collaborative process. And that's out of 15 or 16. So just about half of the people in the room were deaf. And it felt like a family. There was no more being mentally and emotionally tasked with the process. I don't know why I make myself fit in with this structure, but rather everyone felt just naturally on a level playing surface. And it was a wonderful feeling. When I'm the only one in the room, I feel weighted with being representative to an entire community and culture. Yeah, that makes me think about this production team. They often plan. Organize and get everything settled. They tell all the resources for the actors, resources for the tech people, the folks backstage, all these different resources. And that deaf person, designer, director, or actor, the resources often each other, they look at each other. So find that if you can include that in the imitation, saying, you know, the hotel room and the bed. So all those things being available. It's a great thing. It's a hospitality thing, I think. Annie, what you had said about, you know, scheduling for the production process, often people forget that the rehearsal is always a post-show meeting, right? A post-production meeting, a post-rehearsal meeting. And that kind of adds a little time. Adds an hour or two hours. And tech week, you know, it's, I have to remember that scheduling doesn't always follow this schedule. There's always something at the end, right? You have more add on that? Adding more time for those post-production meetings. This is Annie. Yeah. Imagine you're working like a, you worked a 12 hour day. And at the end you have a post-production meeting. And if you have an interpreter, great, but, you know, but your eyes are already exhausted, maybe. And your brain is, is tired and wants to stop working. And now you have to try to, if you don't have an interpreter, for example, you have to like lip read everybody in the room. And try to figure out what's all going on. And so it's, it's important to be aware of all of the needs in the process. And to recognize that it should not just be on the responsibility of the production manager, but the company as a whole to take on the responsibility. In terms of, you know, working with different kinds of artists, not just staff, but everyone's differences. And we, you know, the poor production manager, everything could feel like completely overburdened, but it's really, it should be the whole company working together. Sure. You know, we can talk about the phone raising, the PR folks. In terms of fundraising, often we say often, when we fundraising for the show, the season, you know, fundraising for the theater company to provide access to, we could say that. I think a lot of the artists would be willing to come and, you know, let people come and watch their process and do, you know, a photo shoot and add a little, you know, pure thing to help market and get better money. You can get grants for things like that. So the theater world will know that some of your cities have bigger, small death populations or bigger, small cities. They, many of the cities have municipal funds for the arts, the Mutual Arts Council. So they have money saved and ready for accessibility. So, so the word access really is a broad term. Often that money is not used. And it just sits there and gathers dust in an account somewhere. And if we're not accessing, that's a great opportunity to leverage that and adds value to production process. Like people like Joey, Carla and Annie and many others. You know, the sound designer can't figure out how to make this damn door sound happen. You know, that we have amazing artists available. So, you know, using that budget for that. So there's a deaf gain to be had there. So I wanted to thank you all for your time. Thank you so much. Howl round. Thank you. Thank you for all the volunteers. Thank you for the interpreters and other people I can't see on this video. And I want to close. I think we'll have more discussion about this and how round we'll have as many other videos and presentations that touches on these issues. If you go to howl round and you search deaf, that's it. Just put deaf in the howl round.com website. You'll see many other articles and videos in different theater companies you can contact and you can learn from them how they run their deaf productions. There's so many resources up there too. So those of you who are involved in listening to this presentation, keep asking. Thank you all so much. And Joey, do you want something to say? Yes, this is Joey. Anyone who is on the live stream, watching this live stream, if you have more questions, if you're curious, feel free to reach out to me directly or Kala or Annie or any deaf artists. Many of us deaf artists in the theater world. We know each other. We know others names. So if you're looking specifically to fill a role for a deaf actor, designer, technician, we know who to refer you to. It's all set. I just want to say thank you so much for providing this platform. This is one of my only opportunities to be able to talk about, you know, being a deaf lighting designer. So thank you so much. There's more to come. Thank you. And hopefully things keep warming up a little bit here if it can. Love you all. Thank you. Love to all of you.