 So, for application, we got to the point at XO where everyone was bought into this 2x2 frame market user science and understood it, but then they were kind of like, ah, there are so many things we can do and we're not sure when and everyone had all these tools but didn't really know how to apply them. And in practice, it's not as simple as three little circles that are connected. But if, when I'm forced to add some kind of framework to how research really powers the product development process, this is how I think about it. If you're going to start at the top and you're to think about, okay, we're building something completely new, it's really, you're or we're doing some innovative iteration of something that currently exists, it's time to discover new things. And often the best way to do that is really just to talk to people. So have some type of interview session, but really the interview session, it's a conversation. It's talking to the people that you've identified as your target audience, so you could really understand at a deep level what their problems are so that then you can make an informed decision about how to solve them.