 Great to have you back here on the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Religion and the state have always been historically intertwined even though many liberal-minded people advocate for a separation of the two. Here in Nigeria clerics have always spoken out about the state of the nation. Sheikh Ahmad Gumi has been attempting, if you of course have been following the news, has been attempting to mediate between the government and bandits. More importantly, we are seeing a barrage of criticism of President Mohammad Ubu Ari from clerics like Bishop Hassan Kuka, Reverend Father Eji Kembaka, and Justice Weekend Pastor Itwai Godalo. Take a look. The problem of insecurity in Nigeria lies on the table of Mohammad Ubu Ari. If Mohammad Ubu Ari is ready today to stop all this insecurity, he has the power, he has the ability, and he knows what to do. You can read my lips, he knows what to do. The reason why he's not doing it, I don't really understand. Reason why he's not showing enough energy and effort and direction and interest and concern in this, I really don't understand. For a person who was a general in the Nigerian Army, he looks a little bit too complacent, a little bit too lackadessical, concerning this issue of insecurity. How can you capture 257 girls and we don't know where they are? It's not possible in this day and age with technology and everything. Do you know the amount of effort it takes to move 250 people across a certain place and nobody saw them? Welcome back to The Breakfast and now we're joined this morning by the senior pastor Trinity House Church, Pastor Itua Igudalu. Thank you so much. Good morning and thanks for joining us this morning. Good morning. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you. God bless you. Happy workers' day. Time to you. We're going to be having a conversation this morning on religion and, of course, nation building and how we somehow, somehow we can merge both. If they can continue to work into twine or they should be separated. But I want to start the conversation from your, the last few weeks, the last few months, basically, of Pastor Itua Igudalu. You've been very, very vocal. You've spoken a lot about the ills of our country. And then if you also, what the track we just played, you said the president knows what to do, why he's not doing it, you're not sure, why he has an attitude that seems like he's not concerned, you're also not sure. So tell us about what has picked your interest in the last few weeks or in the last few months and why you completely believe that President Mahmoud Bawari, you know, for one reason or the other, is chosen not to act. Well, I've always been interested in Nigeria. It's not a new thing. Since 1978 or 79, since I've been a teenager, I've been interested in Nigeria. In my early youth, I wrote articles regularly for Guardian, for Vanguard, for Pond, and so on and so forth. It was when I became a pastor that I slowed down a little bit on social commendation so that I could focus on my at least their scout duties. But I've always been interested in their affairs of Nigeria. A lot of the people in government today were all in the trenches agitating for democracy, agitating for a new government. We campaigned vigorously against the government of President Jonathan, when we thought that it wasn't a good government. I was part of this president's campaign, one or two of his campaign committees, because we believed that we needed a fresh change, a new way, a new direction. We had meetings all over the place, and so on and so forth. And as I said, I was part of the people who campaigned in 2014 vigorously for President Bawari, because we thought at the time that we were going to see a fresh change. So it's not, I've always been there. My main concern is to see Nigeria liberated. Africa, as a matter of fact, liberated. The emancipation of the black man, the proper use of our resource, peace and progress in our nation, the ability for every single person to develop according to their capacity, the unleashing of our resources, equity and justice. I've always been an advocate for that, and I will not change. Nothing is personal. I have nothing against anybody. But frankly, I'm totally de-travelized. My father is Aibo. My mother is Yoruba. I went to school with some of the most wonderful houses and full anis that you can find. A lot of them are my best friends, even till today. Worry people hang out with me. I hang out with my Igbo brothers. I'm an accountant. I just want the best person to do the best for Nigeria. It's as simple as that. I need to ask this question, you know, to set the pace before we go into the details. There's a lot of conversation about the church and the state. So from your perspective, do you think the church and politics should be intertwined? Do you think politics and political conversations belong in the four walls of a church? Do you think, you know, clergy, you know, should be politically active? I want your stance on this matter before we go on, please. You know, it's unfortunate that they have given politics a bad connotation. You know, let's call it leadership. Let's not call it politics. You know, it's unfortunate that it looks as if politics seems a bit corrupt, seems to be dirty, blah, blah, blah. You know, politics is just a collection of people expressing their opinion. Why would a clergyman not express his opinion about where he lives, about who governs him, about who decides on his taxes, who decides on the roads that he applies on. Politics and or leadership and religion have always been intertwined. It's just a few of us that tend to misinterpret it. And also because we have this connotation that the political process is corrupt and vicious, it doesn't have to be so. It's simply called leadership. Okay. And who best to direct the path of leadership than one who claims he has from God, you see? And what it used to be like in the Bible was that the religious leader or the spiritual leader was also the political leader. That was what Moses was. That was what Abraham was. That was what Joshua was. That was what Samuel was. It was at the time of Samuel that they divided the kingship from the religious leadership. But the kingship always subjugated itself in many matters to the religious leadership because it was thought that the religious leaders heard from God and they advised the king. And if the king was in behaving well, they had the authority to instigate the removal of that king because they anointed the king in the first place. Till today, the queen of England or the king of England goes to Westminster to be aware of it, to be anointed by the bishop, the bishop of Canterbury or wherever, the leader of the Anglican Church, is the one that anoints the king and then says, God saved the king. The same way when you become a president of Nigeria, you go to the Bible or to the Koran and you put your hand on that thing and say you swear to do what God wants you to do in Nigeria. All right, Pastor Pastore Goodalo, now that we've established based on your perspective that the church and the states is intertwined, is there a boundary, is there a limit? For example, others would say the church or political leaders or other religious leaders should not go as far as endorsing a political candidate. Like we saw with Ruram Fadambaka, he endorsed the president and now he's going on to say that, you know, his change is mine and now he's condemning the president. And you know, people say God is not an author of confusion. God did not tell you to support this man and then tell you not to support him later on. So when it comes to the intersection of faith and politics, should there be a limit for religious leaders? You know, there's a difference between God, the religious leader and the citizen of Nigeria. Fadambaka is a citizen of Nigeria, okay? If he says that God says, that's between him and God, okay? But if he honestly believes that this is what God told him and he makes that opinion known, what's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with it. Every man is entitled to his opinion as they heard from God. Again, back to the Bible. David, the king, slept with another man's wife and killed the man. It was the prophet, Nathan, that had the auction, the boldness, the moral justification to go to David and says you did something wrong. This thing you did is not good and God is not happy. So the leader of any area of Nigeria, church or whatever, has a right to express his or her opinion. My only plea to them is that if they are not sure it's from God, then they should say this is my opinion. If they are sure it is from God, then they can't say this for me is from God. It's an opinion and they have every right to express it. Okay, like you mentioned, it's important that religious leaders, like the narrative that you shared, would always be able to speak up and of course share their views on leadership, like you've said. And of course, if necessary, change leadership. Does it make it difficult when there is different opinions all hearing from the same God? Does it make it difficult when there is also tribal lenience even in the midst of a religious leadership? Because there are certain people who I believe also want the best for Nigeria, but don't agree with the same narratives that you also have shared. They don't agree with your narrative that President Muammar Dabari is being nonchalant or being like a desigal about his run in the country. So does it make it difficult when you have some religious leaders speaking in this direction and then another set of religious leaders speaking in a totally different direction? How does that make it play out? Everybody cannot have this same opinion. You have 200 million people. Definitely people see people from different angles. Some people have had certain experiences with President Dabari. Some people have had other experiences with him. Three, four blind men see an elephant. One holds the trunk, one holds the tail, one holds the body, one holds the teeth. And they all have different expressions of what that elephant is. So you can blame people for the opinion that they have. The job of a leader is to listen to every opinion, good or bad. That's the sign of leadership. A leader must be ready to be spoken to, to be criticized, to be vilified, to be condemned, to be praised, to be accoladed, and to be encouraged. And that's what I'm here to do when the Muammar Dabari does very well. I will praise him. I will encourage him. I will tell him that what he did in this regard is fantastic. If he doesn't do well in this regard, as far as I'm concerned, I will mention it. There's no big deal about that. And it's in zone interest to listen to what I have said, and not take it personally. Because at the very least, it's an opinion. Then you can weigh it. You know, I'm a leader also. I lead a church. I lead an accounting practice. People express their opinions. It's not every one of the opinions that I like, but it's every one of the opinions that I listen to. Because you never know where wisdom will come from. And you weigh it, and you look at it, and then you take your own decision. That's the job of a leader. Listen to what I'm saying. Doesn't it affect the level of trust that the people have in these religious leaders if they're all speaking with a different voice entirely? And I'm talking of both the Muslim and Christian religious leaders now. If they're all speaking with a totally different voice, supposedly all hearing from God, how does that affect the trust that people have in these men of God? Well, you know, God speaks to people in diverse ways and tells them different things. Again, some people really hear from God. Some people don't. It would be naive for everybody to say what every person says in the name of God is correct and true. Even the Bible tells us that a lot of people will be saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Lord, Lord, Lord. And you say, depart from me. You walk off iniquity. I don't know you. Okay. So the citizen has a right to be aware, by a beware. Okay. You must know whether this man is a true man of God or it's not a true man of God. You know, everywhere they are false and true prophets. Everybody who says I am from God is not necessarily from God in the Christian faith and in other faiths. So we just have to be careful. You know, you don't, you can be naive. You can be callable. You can be so spoken to that somebody just stands up one day and says God has said and they say, oh, he's a man of God. It could even be any priest from any denomination. It doesn't mean anything. We're first of all men before we are men of God. So people need to understand that. And men of God will have different opinions because they are still men. They see things from different perspectives. So let's not just be so naive and simplistic and say because he puts on a saco, cast on a hijab or whatever, he's a man of God and therefore whatever he says is sacrosanct. No. Okay. So Pastor Igodalo, now that we, you know, what we understand, you know, your stance regarding politics and religion, going now in depth into what's happening in the country, we saw, you know, you, we even played that track a while ago. You were expressing your views on the state of the nation and condemning the present administration and you said that President Mohammed Buhari knows what to do about the security situation in Nigeria but is like a desical about it. How do you mean? Well, to me, you know, you know, when Britain was going through the Second World War, what tipped that war was a gentleman called Winston Churchill who went to the front lines and spoke to the soldiers. Okay. And encouraged the nation. It's a very famous speech we will fight in the mountains, we'll fight in the beaches, we'll fight in the sea, we'll fight on the land, we will never give up. You know, people draw energy and strength from their leadership. They draw it. This man who was Joint Chief of Staff, the First Blood Band in America, Colin Power, he says, I am with my men. I am afraid, but I cannot show fear. I am hungry. I cannot show hunger. I am tired, but I cannot show fatigue. I must lead my people and show them that this is the way. That is one of the signs of leadership. Okay. We need encouragement from our president. We need a clear direction as to how he thinks he's going to fix this problem of insecurity. Clear. From his own lips, from his own mouth. So Mr. Aygodalo, the press statements from his media aides are not enough? No. Nothing to this presidency, not into this world. We don't rule the world through media aides. We rule the world by standing in front of the people and telling them, I am the president. This is what I'm going to do. And then the people will say, we trust you. Why? Not media aides. They can advise him. They can write his speeches for him, but he must claim ownership of it and he must stand in front of his people and speak to them and tell them, categorically, that this is what I'm planning to do. He must inspire us. This is what we are asking for. Inspiration. It may not be his character. I don't know, but these are parts of the things that lead, that make people follow a person and say, you know what? I think this man knows what he's saying. Again, there's no president that doesn't have deep security reports about everything going on in this country. He gets a security brief every day as to what is going on. And Nigeria has the resource. And we have the network. We have the connection to try and tackle some of these things. The problems may not be solved overnight, but we can see progress one after the other. Progress, one after the other. Progress, one after the other. But right now, excuse me, we just see people throwing up their arms in the air. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. That's the feeling I get. We don't know what to do. What would you say are your biggest fears, if any, with the direction that Nigeria is currently headed? There's people who have mentioned things like a jihad, like Islamization. Those are all conspiracy theories so far. But what for you is your biggest fear that Nigeria might be headed in this direction and that doesn't look good for us? You know, for the first time, somebody who sent me a text, I hope you can hear me. Yes. Somebody sent me a WhatsApp today and about 19 Fulani people have been killed somewhere in the east. 19 killed somewhere in the east. These sorts of things never have been in Nigeria before. I mean, occasionally you find the armed robber that shoots a few people. The highway robber descendant. But innocent people in a gathering and some people right or wrong just go in there and kill them. You hear people in the middle bed being killed. People here being kidnapped all over the place. Where is our security architecture? Where is the fear of the rule of law? Okay. Once they were in America, one man enters a school with a gun, shoots everybody down. But we know him. We track him. We capture him and he's gone. And if we had been careful, we would have known that maybe this man would do something like that. But we capture him. We hold him. And then justice begins. But here, nothing happens. So, Mr. Pasareguralo, beyond speeches we saw you have last week and prayers, what can religious institutions in Nigeria as a whole, both Christians, Muslims, traditional believers, what can religious leaders do to move the country forward? You see, the issue of religious is that there are a bit influential over searching groups of people. Okay. A pastor sits in front of his congregation Sunday after Sunday. They believe him. They listen to him. And so on and so forth. Some of them have huge churches. Some of them have small churches. Some of them have big religious followings, big mosques. Some of them have small mosques. So their first job is to agree on what is right and what is wrong. Even that, there's a bit of dichotomy in agreeing. The second thing is to inform and orient the people. This is right. This is wrong. That is the first job of a leader of thought, opinion and direction. And then advise the people on what they think they can do to first of all be better people themselves. Better citizens. Better people who fear God. And then what they think they can do to contribute to the wellness and betterment of their neighbor. Love your neighbor as yourself. Okay. Their neighbor being the people they interact with. And then what they think they can do to make their environment or their nation a better place. That is what the so-called religious leader of different religions, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrian, Zoroastrianism need to do if those are the tenets of their belief. Of course if it is not, there's nothing we can do about that. Just before we go please in 20 seconds, quickly respond to those who criticized you and the people you invited for the Nigerian leadership series. There was online criticism over the some of the persons that were invited. Quickly respond to that before we go. Well it's because they don't understand what we're trying to do. What we're trying to do in the Nigerian leadership series and we're looking at Africa is to get diverse opinions from different kinds of people young, old, Islam, Christian, Buddhist, anybody as to what they think we can do to fix Nigeria. I am not looking for good or bad people. I am not painting anybody in any coloration. I'm just looking for the persons or persons to hear their opinion as to what is going on in Nigeria and what they think. When we gather these opinions together then we will decipher and go. And so we will need to bring them up for them to explain some of the things they themselves have done and that's all we're doing. Non-political, non-partisan, nothing. Anybody who wants to talk on my series you are welcome. All right, Pastor Igodalo. Thank you very much at the senior pastor, Trinity House Church. Thank you very much for joining us on the breakfast this morning to Turk religion and the state. Thank you. God bless you. All right. We'll go on a short break here and return with a trending and very sad issue. We're talking about how to make our community safe in the light of the unfortunate incident you know that occurred in Aqwaibom. Stay with us. We'll be right back.