 Well, hello everybody, I'm Mel Hauser. I use she, they pronouns and I'm executive director of all brains belong. Welcome to Brain Club. Tonight we'll be talking about access needs in healthcare. We'll be hearing from a panel of community members discussing their experiences attempting to access healthcare and as you'll hear, it doesn't go well often. Brain Club, of course, for those who are joining us for the first time, this is our weekly community conversation about everyday brain life. It's, so we've been doing this for a little over a year and a half now for purposes of educating community about neurodiversity and related topics of inclusive community. This is not a support group. This is not for medical or mental health device. This is for education purposes only. All forms of participation are okay here at Brain Club. As many of you have figured out, you can have your video on or off and even if it's on, we don't expect anything of you. We certainly don't need you to look at the camera or sit still or anything. So feel free to walk, move, fidget, stim, eat, like whatever, whatever needs doing. And everyone is welcome here at Brain Club and all formats of communication are welcome. You can unmute and use mouth words. You can type in the chat. There'll be about a 24 minute video that we'll play shortly. So during that time, we'll have only chat box going, but then we'll have plenty of time for discussion to follow if you'd like. In addition to affirming all aspects of identity, it's really important to us to respect and protect the group's collective access needs and give everyone a chance to participate. However, they are most comfortable. Observation is a completely valid form of participation, but in order to give space for folks with a wide variety of communication access needs, wanna just give space for folks to join in if they want to. So if you've shared out loud, maybe wanna keep sharing in the chat to give space for others. All right, so closed captioning is enabled. You just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of Zoom, you might see the lab transcript closed captioning icon. And if not, try more dot, dot, dot, and choose show subtitles. You can do the same and choose hide subtitles if you'd like to turn them off. And that's my visual support to open the chat box. So I'll actually see it if anybody would like to use it. And by the way, direct messaging is enabled. So if you'd like to, if you're uncomfortable for any reason, you're welcome to send a private chat message. Okay, so as I said, we're continuing our conversation about access needs. So here we go. Before that though, I wanna recap why this matters. The status quo of neurodivergent health is not good. We know from the literature that there are extensive barriers to healthcare access darty at all in a study of autistic adults found that barriers to healthcare cluster in these three buckets. One is environment related, so related to interactions with the environment. The provider, so autistic adults perceive widely that medical providers have insufficient knowledge and skills and unhelpful attitudes that interfere with the provision of healthcare. And lastly, the system. There are so many defaults in the healthcare system that are a mismatch for patients needs. You must pick up the phone to make an appointment. You must fill out the 20-page packet to become a new patient. And remembering that anytime you have a default, anyone whose brain does something different is othered. And so those defaults contribute greatly to barriers to access. And the healthcare culture, which starts really early. There's a hidden curriculum for medical trainees and I know many of you have heard me share this before. Like in my medical training, it was very common that a supervisor, usually a burnt out resident, would make some comment like, up, there's a patient with a list. As though there were anything wrong with organizing your thoughts and writing. This is what goes on and patients feel it and it's real. Knowledge also relates to failure, to recognize autistic people and help people provide, like help people acquire a lens to understand their lives. And what we know from Zerbo et al in 2015, study out of Kaiser, less than 10% of primary care physicians would suspect their patient is autistic. If the patient volunteers information, shows interesting people, discusses emotions and can see the whole picture, despite the latter literally being one of the key strengths of autistic cognitive systems. Anyway, so this is reflective of the stereotypes that are part of medical education and are barriers to access. And as we talked about a few weeks ago at our all the things webinar, that there is often a widespread lack of knowledge about the physiology of autistic people. When you zoom way out and you think about how all of the, many of the medical problems that are commonly experienced by autistic and ADHD adults, this is a whole body neuroimmune constellation. Hey, Lizzie, are you around that you can pop the link to the all the things project in the chat? Checked. Thank you. So are everything's connected to everything project that Lizzie's gonna link in the chat. It takes a look at the patterns of medical conditions commonly experienced by autistic and ADHD adults and almost all of the autistic and ADHD adults in our medical practice, for example, that the standard medical management actually doesn't work for our community because all these medical conditions are intertwined. And when you fragment all the body parts and you fragment you treat these conditions as distinct and separate, as opposed to intertwined with the others that often results in patients not getting better. And lastly before we listen to our panelists experiences, last month, our theme was that of the double empathy problem. Double empathy problem is a term coined by Dr. Damian Milton, an autistic social scientist in the UK that Dr. Milton shown in this has been reproduced many, many times that it is the mismatch of communication styles, world views that results in miscommunication. It's not that there's one set of normal communication skills and then there's autistic people over there. It's that it's both sides. It's non-autistic people having a very difficult time perspective taking and misunderstanding autistic people. And as we covered last month in our double empathy and healthcare brain club about the double empathy problem between healthcare providers and patients is also a huge barrier. All right. And so with that, let's hear from our panel. You have to let me share a screen, I think. Brian, see if it works. Oh, okay. Now what do I do? Oh, okay. So I pulled it up. Thank you so much. You pulled it up. And then if you see the share screen arrow thing when you click it, there should be a little checkbox at the bottom that says share sound. It makes you select it and then you can. Oh, I see that. I just do like, I share my entire screen because I get confused, but you can, you're welcome to choose whatever you'd like to share. But how do I get the, how do I, so I shared sound. How do I get the- The video? Yeah. Do you see the direct message with the link in the chat? I clicked that. Yep. Cool. So if you just start playing YouTube. Oh, did I give you like a wrong link? Does that not photo or video? It goes to a video trying to access help. But when I, sorry, everyone, I hit share screen. I see the, do I hit desktop one? Yeah, yeah. Try that. You're doing great, Amy. You're doing amazing. Yeah. The motor planning of share screen is absolutely the worst thing I do all day. Does anyone see it? Not yet. Do you have two monitors? Can I just tell you, I'll just gonna tell you what's happening on my end. So I have shared screen. A screen comes up and it says basic advanced file apps. And then it's like desktop whiteboard. There's no- How about the upper left corner? Does it just say screen? Is that a choice? Under basic? Under basic. No, it just says desktop one and there's an exclamation point. How curious. Mel, does the video have that background sound or is it like, can you mute and have it on? I think you can mute and have it on. I'm happy to try it too, while Amy's trying it too. I tend to have to use that. Thank you. I have the video pulled up like on my Chrome web browser. But when I hit share screen, it just, it doesn't, there's just like all these boxes. And none of them say screen or video details or Google Chrome. One says Google Chrome, it says unknown. I wonder. Mel, I would just need the link. I don't know if you're sharing your Sierra or Sarah. Thank you. There you go. Sorry. No, thank you so much. And so in the culture of interdependence, we've got it done. Oh, I guess you can't hit mute. I think it's not letting you mute yourself and still, oh, you might just have to hit the share sound button when you hit, when you, yeah, if you unshare. Okay. And then click the little button in the corner. I always forget about that one. Oh yeah. I don't think I've ever had to do that. It's tricky. You should be able to mute. That was not, I forgot about that part. Yeah, our house is chaos. What comes to mind? It's very hard to access health care. I think it's hard in general. I think our system is broken for pretty much everyone. But the amount of additional layers that come when you have, you know, in a way, any type of disability, just, it makes it truly a monumental problem. When you think about your experience trying to access health care, what comes to mind? This is going to be kind of a bummer of a conversation. So here's a content warning because I don't have a whole lot of really great health care experiences. I have medical PTSD. So when I think of the health care experiences that I've had, a lot of them have been very challenging, particularly from, I don't know, have been very challenging, particularly from communications perspectives, trying to make myself understood to the doctor and being understood. What comes to mind is a doctor or physician, or the nurse, you know, willing to understand that this individual is different than all the others. And how can he or she adapt to that individual needs? But with me, it's more about, you know, will this doctor, nurse position accept me for who I am, not what I am? Obviously been autistic my whole life, but I didn't know I was autistic. So I didn't ever knew what the challenge was. And I think about myself even as like a little child and someone had to put attention on me or had to touch me in any way. I think I had a real fear response that I'm just starting to really start recognizing. And I didn't always felt like I was asked permission. And that I realized in retrospect is huge. So I kind of didn't access healthcare or access that very, very minimally. Even in emergency rooms, like not being able to tolerate the environment and being, you know, potentially written down as an uncooperative patient because I had to leave before they were done with their stuff because I just couldn't tolerate it. What are some challenges that you faced in accessing healthcare? The challenges that are faced accessing healthcare is the accessibility formats, documentations that they give you new patients or existing patients, you know, forms that you had to fill out per meeting or pre-form meetings when you get there for your doctor appointment that day, which, as you know, is not accessible. It was very anxiety producing for me. The thing I think is like what I've recognized even in like a basic wellness exam, there wasn't a connection, I didn't have a connection to my body and I didn't have a connection to understanding why the question was being asked. So if I went to a wellness exam and they're like, tell me about your teeth and I would just be like, I don't know, I don't know how. And I, because I'd be so anxious, I don't think I had access like to my fully functioning like speaking. I just wouldn't know what to say. Nobody believes you. And then there are different levels of that in, you know, well, you look at it wrong or you couldn't possibly know yourself because you're this subgroup or that subgroup. And then there are the ones where, well, everybody looks fine, so it has to be fine. And I found out a lot as a parent that I would know something was wrong, but my kids didn't look disabled. They looked cute and perfect and just the right amount of chubby. But no, no, I'm just one of those moms. Yes, the difficulty healthcare system for me was the physicians of trying to understand my complexity of my learning knowledge and how I learn and how can they adapt to my learning? For me, it's more about, you know, not only speaking to them on that same level, which is very, very tricky, but also complexity of the healthcare system in itself because they're running on the medical terminology of the healthcare college insight. And when they use those or explain those to patients, sometimes patients like myself with disabilities cannot get it because it's, you know, it's like you're teaching a seminar at a university, but you're doing it with a patient. Well, she has staring spells. Well, she can walk a straight line and touch her nose so there couldn't possibly be any neurological difficulties. And, you know, it's coming from otherwise knowledgeable people. You start to wonder, where is the problem? I have spent a lot of time not getting a lot of things and part of it was, well, maybe this is just something I'm not, maybe I am wrong. You know, maybe there's this big cosmic thing that 95% of the populace gets and I don't get because I'm me and I don't get it and I didn't know why I didn't get it then, but I just knew I didn't get it. But no, it wasn't me this time. A lot of different symptoms show up in the different symptoms of the body that were fundamentally neurologically related. On COVID, you know, and other, you know, medical issues like asthma, it's, you know, it's very common, but it also seems that shouldn't ever be ignored in a medical profession field because those could complicate, you know, the lifespan of an autistic adult or a child. Even though I talked with them about the other symptoms of the autism, my symptoms were brushed off as PTSD. And I can just feel when I walk in, I don't know if it's a safe space for me. And I don't know that it's like a safe space for me, like being neurodivergent, but I also don't know if it's a safe space because of the way that I'm gonna be treated and disregarded in terms of like, just go lose weight. I'm terrified to go. I think there's a lot of assumptions being a fat person. And so like if I go get my blood pressure checked or something like that, there's this like quality of, oh, I can't believe that you have normal blood pressure. Like just like the things that people are saying to me, you know, I just recently had a routine mammogram and like what was said to me during that appointment was incredibly inappropriate. When I came to Vermont and, you know, I moved here so you had to get a new medical home, this old country doctor, nice man otherwise, took a look at me, weighed me and signed me up for like the entire list of every health test you could possibly have. And I'm like, I don't really want to pay for all these, but okay. And then I was like, no, we don't need to do the cholesterol. At least I know that one is fine because I'd had it done recently and I inherited low cholesterol from my dad. And he wouldn't believe me. So we ran the test. And my cholesterol actually had gone up. And I said, well, should we worry because it's gone up six points in a year that's the most it's ever gone up. And he told me to be quiet. And I was like, okay. I couldn't really voice anything back for me because we're trained not to do that. How was your menstrual cycle? And I was like, fine, great. Well, when was your last cycle or whatever? And it was like, I have no idea. And I immediately like was yelled at. And what they said to me was it's my, I think of, and I started crying. And they said to me that it's my job. Like I always think it's a good sign when people are crying because it's my job to make sure. And if I have to yell at people to make sure that they're taking care of their health. Going through that time period was super frustrating. Trying to like get attention and going to like all these different specialists and not getting a whole lot of answers. So many of these experiences are me advocating for what I need. It took me five years to get a diagnosis for my autism. My healthcare provider said, well, we can't say you're autistic. Or like, you know, like my chiropractic care was like, no, there's just no way. Like just like not asking me, not curious at all. Like not saying what makes you think that you're autistic or how could we find you an autistic specialist to figure out or- To give you some idea how powerful it was. Number one, learning that I was autistic was like a kaleidoscope coming into focus for my entire life that made everything make sense. And I was also diabetic at the time. My blood sugars literally dropped 20 points overnight and stayed down with a self diagnosis of autism. I find that hypocrisy bothers me a great deal in general. And, you know, we're supposedly, you know, a society where we're supposed to take care of ourselves and be informed and make decisions and be self actualized and everything. And even if you're all those things and in many ways, if you are those things, healthcare isn't designed to work for you. You know, it's sort of designed for you show up and they send you places and put you in little cubbies and folders. And if you actually are like, no, that doesn't actually affect me. This over here affects me. Nobody quite knows what to do with you. Doctors I don't think are really taught how to work with patients who don't fit the expectations of, you know, what the profile is. They're trained to make decisions in a very specific way. They need to in order to be really good with their time. Because nobody else lives in your body, but you. Right. Right. So you think after a certain amount of time you would become an expert in it. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of how I look at mine. Yeah. Thanks. Knowing that just because somebody shows up in front of you and may appear normalish enough, but there needs to be given some amount of space or grace to allow for the fact that maybe this person has other things going on that you don't know about. I try very hard to communicate, but then when I get frustrated I become very blunt. And the new doctor I have at least can deal with that. But a lot of people in healthcare are still sort of trained in that, you know, I am in charge and you are here at my whim sort of thing. And, you know, we must be respectful. There's so many different layers of those nuances that I'm like, no, I had to wait 45 minutes for you. I could never go back. So in that one moment, and I went to therapy and we're starting to get all these strategies of how do I go back? And that's when I found ABB. Really, basically I was going through another round of low mood and fatigue and sort of growing hopelessness about the possibility of having a future. And I had pretty much exhausted mainstream healthcare options or at least the mainstream healthcare options I was willing to try. And I heard this, I was sitting with this friend with Overcoffee who was the director of the Vermont Disability Council and she was raving about this new doctor in Montpelier who was out as autistic and starting a medical practice. What do you wish healthcare providers knew about neurodiversity and neurodivergence? It's really like, I want them to know about ABB. I want them to know what Mel has figured out. I want them to know this connection between all of the things that I wasn't waking up in the middle of the night with panic attacks. I was waking up because I wasn't breathing because I needed a sleep study. I was waking up because I have dysautonomia because my autonomic nervous system doesn't work correctly. Everyone was putting this on me that like my thoughts were causing these panic attacks. Like I don't know who has panic attack. I wasn't having a thought in the middle of the night. And the way in which Mel has reframed that it's my fault that I'm not doing something correctly that I'm broken, which is, I feel like what the healthcare would say like you're not doing enough. And what I hear Mel saying is no, the medical system isn't doing enough for you. And so that's what I would love to say is that if the medical care system didn't blame people who have difference that instead was curious about that. And we have made some, not enough, but some progress over the last 40 years. Learning to accept people a little bit, to give people a little bit more grace, a little bit more space to be themselves when we can tell they need it. But if you look like you should fit and then you don't, people get cranky. And if the cranky people are the people that we're relying on to give us the referral, to actually listen, to think about what we're saying and try and put the pieces together in the areas that we aren't knowledge about because nobody can know all of this stuff. And if they're just grumpy because we don't fit what they think, no. For me, I see that process of the healthcare industry is starting to come around and understand neurodivergent individuals and neurodiversity. Having curiosity around my experience, like asking me, do I understand where the question is coming from? Providing a space that I can feel comfortable in and safe in helping me make connections back to myself, not making presumptions about my body but asking me if that makes sense. Finding ABB, he's just like, I've said this to Mal, I've said this to a lot of other people, but it's like, I just know I'm gonna live longer. I can't imagine being yelled at. I can't imagine not being cared for. I think the whole first wellness visit that I had with Sierra, I think I bawled the entire. Like, I just remember my sure being all wet because I just couldn't believe the care that I was getting and I couldn't believe the access and I didn't even know what I needed. I had zero idea and that there was all these different options and so it's just so radically different for me. The idea that we can just say this is my access need and if we can take that step to say, okay, we're gonna actually look at this problem. What is the actual problem with access? What is the actual problem with communication? What is the actual problem with coverage? Oh, then maybe we can fix some of this shit. So I think that's what we need. What I want providers to do across remote state life is to understand the individual needs. If we can understand your needs, we need to be respected in the same way. And for me, it's more about having that work individual participant relationship. Basically, you want the doctor to get to know you better vice versa, the patient should get to know the doctor better. What helps move things along quicker and make the process more easy for both parties? The doctor, the nurse and the physician at large. Plus the individual patient would get to know you better would feel at ease coming back to those services. So I did the intake, which invited me and then that invited me to share like among other things, what I care about and also offer to have a provider spend time discussing things I cared about which really impressed me and among other things like the possibility of sort of like how do you structure an appointment in a way that it's comfortable to you when you feel comfortable? And I thought, and things I had never thought about is even possibilities of sitting in a doctor's chair with a comfortable blanket or pillows or something like that. So that was like, oh, I could, and so that it was just nice that people thought about things like that. And then I was sitting, when I was sitting in the waiting room for my first appointment, there was this a short, a really short book written for kids and it basically told my life story of losing it. I remember reading it waiting for my first appointment. So sort of losing it and having these public meltdowns that I was so ashamed of and it explained those things in terms of the flight, the fight flight response which I was totally on board with already. So, and then there was also something on the wall in the office about polyvagal theory which I was also totally on board with already and thought that I was impressed that ABB knew about and was thinking about. So at that point I thought, wow, it looks like these people speak my language. And what I wanna see for it is, you know, that says a belonging within the healthcare field industry but also understand everybody's access needs is different. We're all different, we're not the same. And for me, it's more about trying to connect I had a universal connection between each industry or each systems and try to make it a collaborative system where it's cost effective and more efficient because everybody wins that way and it's more collective than having these barriers or what you call silos that are preventing us from providing those services in the first place. And then this is like a sincere attempt, a really sincere attempt. The most serious attempt I've ever seen in a medical practice to meet people where they are at to serve everybody well and to leave nobody behind. It's an incredible effort to make groups and meetings and medical care accessible and interpersonally, practically, financially. And I love that the practice is really developed in consultation with patients and like we're in these advisory groups and invited to join them and that what happens in the practice after that is informed, how the practice develops is informed and driven by what we say in those meanings and basically informed and driven by patient needs. I just didn't know that I would make it. And so when I say like, I know I'll live a longer life. It's not only do I live a longer life because I have the healthcare but now I have community and making friends. I feel understood. I feel like all of the things that seemed so isolated in the issues with my health are now understood with very simple medications. You know, it's like, it's just changed my relationship to being able to get up in the morning, like limited my limbic response so that I actually can be here right now speaking to you. All of these things that ABB are providing for me and then it's like the other patients are just, I've learned so much. This is just like so amazing to me. There are these amazing group medical visits where Mel and Sierra offer this cutting edge information but they also allow lots of time for questions and in-depth discussion around the areas that concern us. And beyond that, and there's more because there's also an opportunity to meet others in the community who are going through the same or similar things which then gives us the opportunity to learn from each other's experiences and to really value and feel valued by each other and feel a lot less alone and a lot more hopeful. So I mean, the first thing I just wanna say is to thank our panelists, Sarah, Matthew, Amy, Linda, Zeph. As Sarah said in the chat, we are so grateful that you are willing to make yourselves vulnerable and share your experiences so authentically. And I think like the power of your stories and like there's like a million me too is in the chat. It's like all the people who think they're the only ones. So when we think about access needs, there's so much here. So first off, if folks are not, I mean, like most of us didn't grow up thinking through a lens of access needs. I'm like, what are my access needs in a given situation? You just show up and you're powered over and you're dysregulated, you don't have a little access to your cortex. And even if you did, you don't know what you're allowed to ask for. And that's one of the reasons that in our medical practice, we focus on universal design principles where we're trying to offer things in multiple different ways and giving people freedom and choice to pick what works for them. Because I think Amy actually said this in their remarks that like you don't know what to ask for. Hi. One thing I've been thinking about with access needs and expressing my access needs. Well, first off, I don't know what they are. I don't know what I need. That really resonated when Sarah said that. I really don't know what I need. And then I'm thinking in situations where my access needs are not being met, my nervous system amps up, the stress response. My response is flight. I run away. And that response triggers, it turns off the Broca Center in the brain which is the language center. So when I'm overwhelmed, I actually physiologically cannot speak. And I think others probably experience this as well. So to express my access needs in the moment is near and impossible. I've made a couple of cue cards. I've laminated a couple of cue cards that I share with people. I practice with people who are safe, who I feel comfortable and safe with that I can say I don't need a whole lot of context when I say no to them or when I express my access needs. So even if my access needs are being fully met and acknowledged in a situation, I still express them with those people because it helps me to tone my nervous system. It helps me to practice so that when I'm in situations where I'm overwhelmed, my brain goes, oh, wait a minute. I've been here before. I remember I did this. Let's give it a try again. And so I'm slowly, I feel in this whole autistic experience of mine, I feel like a fern. I feel like I'm unfurling. I feel like I've been clenched really tightly for about 57 years. And I'm just starting to unfurl. And I'm really kind of, well, I'm terrified, but I'm also really very excited and hopeful to see what blossoms, what this next phase of my life could be now that I have this new knowledge and understanding of who I am. Thanks, that was a lot. That was amazing. And a fern, many people think the fern is a symbol of endurance and to extend that metaphor. So anyway, thank you for sharing that. And I think you're modeling, practicing this lens and this framework around safe people when you have access to your cortex, including the ability to communicate intentionally. Yeah, thank you for sharing. There's lots of support in the chat for you, Moonie. I don't wanna take up too much space because I was already on the video so much tonight, but I just wanted to say that watching that, because I haven't seen that in so long, it's like that almost feels like in such a distance pass for me, that my whole relationship and my connection with Sierra and Mel and other patients and it almost felt like, oh, it's like such a different person now. And I went through a really hard time this summer that almost felt like past experience I would have had if I didn't have ABB. And what maybe like would have taken four years to figure out in the past was like six weeks. I mean, it was just like, and it was just like, I felt like so many people in the community rallied around me and so I just, the thing that was ringing in my ear was just like congratulations, you're autistic. Like that's what I received eventually. Like that's what I got was congratulations, you're autistic, which is everything I needed to hear because I'm really proud to be who I am in this community. So thanks for listening and all your comments and everything. Amazing. I just wanted to share something really quickly. Also, hi everyone, I'm Nora. This is my first call. Just at the beginning when we were having some technical difficulties, seeing how well everyone like cooperated and just like lifted each other up. I don't think I've ever been on a call where there's been technical difficulties and it wasn't like, it didn't feel like there was some kind of vibe of somebody getting blamed for it. That was just so wonderful to see and to be with. It's amazing. And thank you for sharing that, Nora. And I think that like one of the other things that really stands out to me, anytime someone notices something that seems so basic, it's humbling, right? Like it's humbling that that stands out. Why does that stand out? Why is it that like most people in many other environments see something else when really it's not that hard? And I think like part of what I think is happening here is that we are bringing people together who, I'm like losing the ability to speak. It's like that our people coming together who like can reimagine something else, can reimagine a world where the Zoom doesn't work and the team comes together and people jump in and chime in and support one another and figure out how to support and compliment one another's access needs. Like that's how it can be. All, that's how it can be. And so it's my hope that the more times we see it and we experience it, then we know what's possible. And then what follows is we come to expect it and demand it everywhere. Laura. I feel like Mel, you've introduced so many of us to that term, the culture of interdependence. And I feel like this community has helped me feel motivated to use that in other areas of my life and to try and normalize that we all have different needs and that we can support each other instead of blaming each other or feeling bad for what our needs are. And I feel like that's trickled into my family life and my work life in different ways. And I'm just really appreciative for this community for always role modeling to me how to be a community. Amazing, thank you. Getting in the chat, Michelle says, I think you all have deliberately made the ABB and Brain Club a socially connected community and each of you is part of the community, right? This is more than a nonprofit organization offering services. It's the culture of interdependence. Everything is connected. Well, I want to slip that sink in. Yes, right, it's we're living and breathing it. As Amy says, being provided some braces and access need, it seems to be easier to find around ABB. Thank you, Amy. Erin. Hi, this is my first call. I just, I don't know, I'm kind of blown away by you guys. I just never experienced such safety in a group, especially on Zoom. It's just, I don't know, I'm quite touched. So I just wanted to share that it's just really beautiful, the way you guys communicate. And it's so, it should be so normal. And it should be so, I shouldn't feel so blown away, if that makes sense, and simultaneously I really am. So I'm just glad I came across you all. And yeah, cool. So amazing, I'm so glad you're here. Yeah, I think that, I mean, what we did and we're, you know, we're a new organization, we'll be two years old in November, but I think what we just started doing was showing up. We should have showing up authentically and being like, hey, you want to show up authentically? And then people are like, I don't know how to do that, but okay, I'll try. And that's, yeah. As we wrap up tonight, I think that I again, more really want to thank our panelists for sharing their experiences. And I really appreciate all of you for being part of this discussion. Thanks everyone, see you next week.