 Thank you so much for staying with us. This is OY25 for TV Time for Politics. We're looking at Kenya's creeping economy and some of the measures that have been reverted to ensure that our economy becomes stable. That is the VATs and the 1% to some sectors will be looking into that while the government is proposing come in January even for the tax payment. I'm speaking to Kristin Kendi, political analyst and Lito Asairas, political analyst as well. My name is Adreva Hilavi. Welcome to the broadcast. Send in your comments to all of us on Shemidi platforms, Y2F channel, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning. Karibunisana, you know, it has been, I think, a week where people have been worried. Those who have been being supported by the government, now it's a time they're feeling like, wow. It's going back. Tumechelewa Sanan Kiare is proposing or through the government, the Kiare has come up with some measures. But even so, in matters economy, so far the market volatility according to some research, volatility is packed fears of COVID-19 industrialization to glean insight into the paths ahead. Business leaders need to take careful look at market signals across asset classes, but also look beyond the markets to recession and recovery patterns. At the same time, cross-section sectors of economy are worried how bad a COVID-19 recession would be, what the scenarios are for growth and recovery and whether there will be any lasting structural impact from the unfolding crisis. And last week we saw the president launching the recovery plan. So the biggest question now is, what would the COVID-19 industrialization look like because things have been going down in terms of market. I want to begin with you, Cyrus. Thank you for having me this morning. And I believe the government actually cannot come up with measures. One, the tax rate of 80-60% was there previously just because of the corona thing. It was, we were given a, let me say, a break. You see, the normal taxation rate is going to come back. We were not told that it's going to be permanent. No. You see, at the end of the day the economy of a country needs to grow. And this country depends on that economy for its growth. And if we don't remit our revenue, our taxes, then how are we going to grow? The only challenge that we have is when there's massive looting and massive corruption within the care itself. And then when we get tax, there are some fallacious tax exemptions that are placed on people. And you see, somebody maybe has a business that gives him almost millions of shillings. But this person will pay very little to the government through tax evasions methods. And now we need to sit down and ask ourselves what have we lost through such a tax evasion. Through such a fallacious tax evasion. Tax evasions are there. I'm not seeing them around there. But underline the word fallacious whereby in other words we call them tax cheats. I cheat that I didn't do business so that I evade paying taxes. I cheat that I didn't do business so that I evade paying VAT. So if 10 or 100 people do that who have generated an income of let me say billions of shillings then as a country, where are you? Then we have also the tax target that CARE has each and every here. Believe me or not, it has never achieved it. So these are some of the things that we need to sit down and strategize on how we are going to achieve our tax target so that we boost our economy, so that we are able to pay the debts, so that we adhere to the clarion call of sending 35% to the counties after BBI has passed because when we talk of sending 35% to the county governments. Now the question when I sit down and I do my arithmetic in one way or the other if we don't attain our tax target and we collect 16 billion from our revenue collection in the country. Now 900 billion pays, let me say the debts. This other one around 500 billion pays what? Let me say the current expenditure. So from this 16 trillion, how are we going to ensure that we attain at least a realistic amount that will be able to improve our economy at the county level. We have health, we have agriculture, we have infrastructure and so many things at the county level. So when we talk of achieving it is it the only thing on paper or is it going to be realistic and to make it realistic and I insist is when we come out and ensure our tax target is achieved. We cut the things of tax cheats and then we work on corruption. We cannot fight corruption to the latter but we can manage corruption so that at least we get something that will enable our country to grow. I appreciate you have mentioned corruption because that is one of the things we will be looking into at the tail end of this discussion. Let me bring in Christine. We have been on a tax break for the last 7 or 8 months since COVID-19 came and here we are, we are reverting to the same trend. What is the likely recovery path? I will hate to be a leader this time because a country like U.K. projects that it will recover from COVID-19 in a round being optimistic that is around 2024. Kenya depends on these countries. For example in U.K. they have lost 10% of the population have lost their jobs. These are people who come to Kenya. They are the tourists who come to Kenya. So when such a country suffers it is going to get a terrible cold. It is going to be very bad on us. Again in this country we have a country where the middle class, the people earning between 40,000 to 100,000 carry the burden of the country. These are the civil servants and the employed people. These are the only people. Actually whenever we have a new tax it is introduced to these people because for a business person it is easy not to pay tax. But once you have a pay slip anything that is introduced will come to you. So we have a very small in any part of our population carrying the entire country. If we could move away from taxing these people, the 40 to 100 because these are the people who have been sustaining us. There are still the people who are sustaining us and there are the people who don't enjoy these tax breaks. The tax breaks go to business people. For some reason the government thinks that a person who is employed does not need the tax break forgetting that by yamafutiki panda it hits this person. So if we could broaden our tax base like tax, these are the people outside for them to help these middle class carry the burden. It will be very good. The problem is catching those people is the easiest person to catch is obviously who has a pay slip and the people in Kenya who still do not have a pay slip. But once you have a pay slip, it will be very good. I want to say something on what she has just raised. On taxation. Everyone is being taxed. No, the one that everyone is being taxed. Even the civil servant is there. I want to explain based on some empirical examples. A business person is taxed. This business person does not have only one tax to pay to the government. This employed person has only... Can I interject? Allow me to interject. Because what happens is the business person by yamafutiki panda, they make sure that they don't carry the burden of by yamafutiki panda. By yamafutiki panda, yesterday night when you went home, you paid $50. Then the price of fuel goes up at 12 a.m. in the morning you are going to pay $100. Those people do not carry the tax burden. But this employed person, by yamafutiki panda, they will still pay the same amount. When you look at that, from your angle you are saying that when taxation is increased, the seller is not increased from one angle, as I understand. I was saying this before she interjected. When you look at taxation, an employed person is not highly taxed. And I want you to get me from this angle. You said highly taxed. He is not highly taxed. He is just moderately taxed. The normal taxation. Where is payee and the annual tax? These are only two kinds of taxation. Payee is... The employer is the one who remits it to take care of it. Out of your salary? Yes, out of your salary. Those are what we call statutory deductions that I need to be there. We don't know what you are. NHIF, payee, we have NSSF, and if you have medical cover, that's your own and other things. So these are statutory deductions. The seller is supposed to be deducted from an employee. A business person who does business, this person has VAT to pay. And that's VAT? When you're paying in a hotel, the VAT is included. Wait a minute. So they don't carry the burden of the VAT. Wait a minute. This person has VAT to pay. That is 16%. Paid by the consumer? Wait first. When I'm going to do calculations, Hillary investments, it will be best if you give an example. That's what I want. That's what I want to give. When I have Hillary investments, I register a company that has a pin. This person remits VAT in a month. But when I'm pricing my commodity, I will include the VAT. Let me just finish. So we don't carry the burden of the pin. Let me finish my example. Then we divide on it. Hillary investments, an institution or an investment that is established that has employees. Or let me say like 10 to 20 employees. Hillary has a salary and employees have salaries. So all of them, they are employees of that company, including you yourself. As much as you're an investor, you're also an employee of that company. So you pay pay, VAT, not VAT, you pay pay and NHF and NSF. These are the statutory deductions that you remit to the government. That's the first bit. That's the first bit. Now, when it comes now to Hillary investment, the company itself, the business, this business has VAT to pay. This business has done supplies of one or two tiers with the holding tax to pay. The holding tax comes in two ways. One, in a month or in the end of the year. Depends on the kind of business that you've transacted. We have also if you are a larger consumer, a larger business investment, then there is what you call LTO, large taxation. That it is burdened unto you. So at the end of the day, the investor pays a lot of taxes than the employed person in that institution. So you pay the institution pays the taxes and also it pays these other taxes to the government. There's only what you call shared costs when it comes to employer and employee. The shared costs whereby from my salary, there's a reduction. And also from what the investor pays the employee, there's a reduction. So there's what you call shared costs at the end of the day. Now, when you buy the price of the petroleum increases, it affects each and everyone. It does not affect only one person. It affects the business person. Remember maybe this person bought this petrol at a certain cost. So he tried to calculate, let me say by the end of this month, I'll ensure I get this. So this profit has been, the profit margin has been reduced in one or the other. So it has affected the income of this business as much as the income of the country. So because my understanding is the Bonof Contesunia is the VAT. It will be spread across. But it is spread across. VAT is always spread across. Is it abaden to the owner of the business? It is abaden to the owner of the business. But it is a benefit to the country because we want that revenue. I'm talking from an angle where I sit down, do calculations and remit taxes to the government on behalf of the companies in one or the other. So when we talk of taxation at the end of the day we are supposed to pay our taxes in order to sustain the revenue of our government. So as a business person are you spreading the same VAT that you have paid for to several consumers or to a single? Yes. It is a consumer who pays the VAT. The business person does not pay the VAT. No, the abaden of taxation is carried by the consumer because when I have a business I have bought milk for 100 shillings. 16% of that is VAT. When I am charging on that on the hotel result you will see my last VAT. So the consumer will pay for that VAT. Not me. My only work here is to remit the VAT paid by the consumer to carry. It's okay. And that's where you see the business at the end of the day. It just remits 16%. Because the consumer has already paid. Everyone contributes. It has been spread across. So everyone contributes to that. There are also other mamambogas in Mudurwa in other areas. Where she said that they don't have a pin. Yes, they don't have a pin. But KRE has done the best it can do to ensure each and everyone has a pin. We call TOT. Turnover tax. Turnover tax is meant for the small businesses. Okay? After three, it was previously before it was suspended then it was brought back because it was brought back. It came back in January? It came back in January. It's coming back in January. It came back already. Yes. TOT was already there. It came back a long time ago. It was suspended. Then it came back in January this year. Okay? It came back. So previously it was after three months. Okay? It was quarterly. You do your calculations of TOT then you submit it to KRE. But right now it is monthly. Okay? Because we want to first track the collection of revenue. We want to to hit a target of revenue collection. So each and every individual who has a small business has the ability to pay taxes. We should not turn away from the tax that we need to pay. Because one, at the end of the day we need development in this country. At the end of the day we need education. Who is going to find that education? Why is it? You see, there is a cry. There is a cry under my youth and I have always said and I will never share off from seeing the truth. There is a cry when they said every student is going to pay the university fee from they want to be help from coming next years. Also help has been reduced. We should ask ourselves this question. When students go on strike and rampage crying that they need help whereby others have defaulted paying the same help. It does not say it does not add up when you tell me I'm not employed by the government to pay the taxes. The government will never employ all of us. That's one thing we should always keep in mind. But at the end of the day I do one or two things to ensure that I am a living. When I have a loan it's my prerogative to pay that loan. To pay back that loan so that it may benefit the other person. So when we run on the streets saying that we are not given our help yet when help is given to us we don't pay. It's not a grant. It's not a grant. We need to sit down and the students union bodies should sit down should get economical devices from the same institutions and advise them the impact it has on the future generation when they default or when they default in paying the help loans. Because when you look at it the money is being remitted to help to help such individuals. This is the transition money that we are talking about because the government does not get grants from donors for help to the revenue that is being collected in this country. So when we default to pay we are affecting the future generation. So what do we need to do? We need to call upon each and every individual. No matter how much you get you get a 10,000 you get attention ensure you have one shilling that you set aside to pay your help loan so that somebody else will benefit. We need help. Christine and other things has raised a critical issue regarding the help and we know with the BBIs proposing some grace period to pay the same. What do you want to say in regards to the help and the taxation that we are mentioning? The help is signed and I really hope that the ministry of education does not raise the school fees but I actually had that argument with a friend and he asked me how much I paid for my son in baby class and it was I mean people pay 40,000 and above. So he asked me so how do you expect universities to run when you are paying around 17,000 to 18,000? Very true. To some extent the universities have bills to pay electricity and the money is little. They are justified to add the school fees but I'm still hoping that the government comes in. We need you see since the Kibaki since the Kibaki administration when he had free primary education we now have more people going to the universities. We cannot have people who have completed baka fomfo then these people are qualified to go to the university because they don't have school fees but again in regard to the BBI as you are saying we have counties receiving 35% in BBI and wards getting 5% of that 35%. So when if the university is raising the fee and if help is not enough this is where the CDF the county bursaries and the ward bursaries come in. No one in this country is supposed to go to school for lack of school fees. I mean when we are expanding representation with representation comes the resources so where are we giving this representative more resources if I am going to have my son not go to school because he cannot raise 35,000 for the university. The same question comes from where I sit where is the government going to get this money that is going to remit to the counties that will be sustainable even that bursaries for health for infrastructure for agriculture but it's the same money that the government and other things I'm not objective they say but I'm looking at it and I talk of tax cheat and I raise this concern sometimes back when I look at the BBI the BBI on the on the youth perspective and I remember even said I was part of the team that sat down to come up with the memoranda the memorandum that is submitted to the BBI on the taxation and I raise this question on the same board room that you are sitting if we give youths seven years period for them to come and pay the taxes and the youth has made billions of shilling does it mean this person is exempted from paying the taxes how much have the country lost from this this is another thing that we should look at then remember our country is full of cartels you can never run away from that and you can never shy from speaking that truth when a person in the ministry even yesterday was with one of my uncles who work in the ministry he said the biggest problem we have in this country they are the civil servants they cheat when everyone cheats when you come you are a civil servant you discover let me say there is that freedom for the youth or people with disability or other now you go register an institution after you sign an institution then you take a proxy who is the youth to come just because of the face of the youth so how many companies are we going to have no there is a limit to the turnover I am not objecting no, no, no there are 7 near tax limits there is a limit for startup businesses I am not objecting not just every business so there is a limit for the time I am not objecting but you see what at the end of the day I am not objecting the limits but you have a thousand people and each and everyone has a limit of 100 to be exempted then these 1000 people have made that 100 how much has the country lost in taxation it was 4 years and you have been given 4 years to pay your loans but it is 7 years you can say comfortably after 4 years I will pay so 10,000 of you outside the same person we won't pay that loan we are citing the reasons that I am not employed by the government but you have never been with youth outside here I am telling the truth I am a youth I sit with youth I discuss youth matters with the youth and I know how you speak to some extent but you see that is how the youth enterprise fund died because youth were taking money they take money how many people are willing to pay that no Hillary Hillary had this discussion youth fund has failed we take loans we don't pay loans we default I had that discussion with the youth enterprise fund and with it comes the women enterprise with the women fund and the person was telling me he prefers giving loans to women than youths because he will give to women he will give to women they will have an actual project with profits and everything and every month they make sure that they pay for the youth on the other hand to tender to chupwe our 20,000 left kumbe when I pay the loan I will pay it because when they merge they had their own working and again the loan is conditional the loan is conditional you cannot be given as an individual you have to come together as a group so we come together as a group given the 50,000 everyone says nipatiangu niata no niata elfiangu tanu nini nita jisot na yo when I go without 5000 shillings there's nothing I'm going to do there's nothing I'm going to do then when it comes to paying we shall not pay that loan and then we shall come back to say the youth are unemployed the government needs to create jobs for the youth the government does not create jobs for the youth the government does not create jobs for anybody the government just creates opportunities for you to create jobs for yourself so when they have given you the youth enterprise fund they do not owe you a job that is where the jobs are supposed to come from but we have collapsed it we are about to collapse help and anything else that involves the youth alright I want us to analyze the road to recovery by KER the enhancing domestic revenue mobilization and what COVID-19 has done to this you just mentioned of how much was lost when we were on a tax break and according to KER the head it has been able to mobilize 1.1 billion shillings against the target of 1.3 billion shillings reflecting a revenue shortfall of 186.3 billion shillings so it makes sense if we go back and this is what the government has been able to do we can see the PPEs we can see the material relief assistance to support vulnerable families but we have to go back here seeing the difference between these few months and over the years as a country economically speaking have we been okay? no country is okay I will tell you hotels are still on their knees they haven't recovered tourism is our main source of income we can remove even the taxations but as long as the hotels are not operating we are not about even to move but what the government is trying to do is actually because when you don't spend money money will not circulate so what the government is trying to do right now is spend money so that money circulates and then encourage people to spend money like I will encourage you to open a business whichever kind of business it is so that money starts flowing and encourage other people I mean make the environment friendly for people to spend money it doesn't have to be in the millions those people were not maybe they were not earning a lot but it made a whole difference to the economy ask the small businesses that 450 used to go to mamamboga used to go to the buchari person used to go to mamafua and then there is another woman who was taken a babysitter so it used to support a whole economy on itself therefore 50 was not supposed to make us billionaires it was supposed to make sure that money circulates that mamamboga does not come out with hamburger and doesn't get people to buy them burger they come out with buchari it does not slaughter a goat and then they go trots there will be someone who will go and buy kanyama ka 50 bop that's a whole economy that has been revived right now now with the difference asairas and we can see most of the money went to the ministry of health we are reverting back to the system what we have missed other than the ministry of health other sectors that have been left out here you see when I look at these effects of tax measures I'm not looking at them at the previous one I'm looking at them as the future effects of tax measures COVID is here to stay with us we need to ensure we protect our doctors by getting the PPEs for them rather you have that doctor there we need to ensure this circulation of money as she has demonstrated as she has explained in our economy by coming up with those small enterprises those small opportunities for our people the government will always create opportunity for us it came with the youth fund women fund now the Kenya national chamber of commas has come up with the other one together with mastercard ensuring the support also the mambogas they give them a loan of 30,000 10,000 depending on your ability to pay the loans are being given to the people 3 months, 4 months loan to sustain their business the question is with the people who are being given the loans able to repay back the money so that we can be able to recover ourselves also to boost our economy the government has a great plan for the nation but the problem is the people within the country have no good heart for the government because if I am giving that 30,000 where can time do multiplication in that business so that I pay my taxes and I get good services from the government to be fair it's because obviously the trust between the citizens the government also has to do something about corruption I am not objecting people do not want to pay taxes all of us when you talk of the government we forget we are the government the government is not the leader the government is not a guru the government is I and you and at what rate or at what percentage do I contribute to corruption when that member of parliament when that mza comes to me asking for votes I don't vote for integrity because he has given me 500 shemiks this person has bribed me ask yourself where do this person get this money the 500 doesn't last and when he gets into power this person has to embezzle money because he needs to find something he also needs to find something so that he can buy you again so this is another culture that we need to run away from we need to sit down and look at the ideology of an individual to fight corruption is not the effort of the government alone the government might fight it even to 0.01% magnitude but the entire effort lies with me and you let's not forget that you know the most interesting thing after you have said that around 7 months 9 months before the election ESEC releases after the IBC has received the list of candidates ESEC releases people who have integrity issues a list of people who have integrity issues it is published in the newspapers but can you still go look we can't vote for MP we can't vote for MP so we cannot actually blame the government not for fighting corruption when we look at Nairobi where we are right now to add on that before you got that post COVID-19 recovery measures which you are going to discuss intensively when you talk of accountability which she has just brought in it is because we have discussed it when you talk of accountability there are institutions in this country that are sleeping the independent election donors commission she raised a very good concern when IBC finishes doing whatever then ESEC says this person is tainted but you end up voting the same person IBC is also taxed with ensuring election campaigns are well managed there is what you call election funding each and every candidate who goes to an election whether you won whether you lost starting from nomination you need to submit your audited accounts on how you spend your money because there is a limit but then you will be surprised people will submit those audited accounts and people will live and have a harambe in quotes for finding their campaigns just kutufunga machu but I can say very few submit majority don't submit no they submit it's a requirement they submit it's easy to get the documents it's easy to get the audited there is what you call post whereby after campaigning there is that evaluation you need to see them and submit it in fact I have that in my library I always go through it but none of us has always submitted it I myself because I contested but I never submitted it so there is no accountability no accountability to some extent and I am not ashamed to say that that is now from the agency from the agency it has to put measures in place to ensure that each and every person who runs for that seat whether you won, whether you lost submit that audited report let's look at this now post COVID recovery measures we have a statement of residence corporate tax reached to 30% from 25% I want us to look at the impact of this they were getting the 450 shillings they could buy some amount of or some items but now with the version of 16% from 14% what else can they get with the 450 the impact to the young people we have 30% pay as you earn you've been mentioning that but we have some people who still remain under 24000 they will not be taxed 16% what can you buy with 400 and I've said it this is what you used to have but this is what you've been paying it was 14% no no no for the 7 months it was a tax break underline the what break tax break we used to pay 30% we used to pay 16% we used to use things blindly no it was there those were the tax regulations the reason they put them there remember between March and now guys were working from home people lost jobs people were working on half pay people were working half day but now we can say we have gone back to normal we have gone back to normal we cannot say we are going back to normal we still want the tax breaks that have been put they were working for 4 hours when the president announced about the tax break I was so saddened because I was looking at how going to build our economy by the reduction of taxes from 30% to 25% but I was really saddened and I complained about it because this is where we get our revenue reducing something from even 0.1% is a bigger margin now from 30% to 25% how much are you going to lose and people are going to do businesses that's why we had COVID millionaires people are going to transact, man is going to be there so we are going to lose a lot and in fact when you sit down and do analysis we've lost a lot of money during this 7 month period but the reduction of taxes now the only thing that we need to recover is by ensuring the target as I said earlier the target that KRA has each and every year is achieved and now we are going to do that is by ensuring each and every person pays this taxes even KRA has introduced what we call digital taxation digital taxation it is going for these people who do unlike businesses like Jumia and other people even for the forex yes they have their own way the KRA has come up with a methodology on how these taxes are going to be to be paid because they have been evading taxes so government is trying to do each and every thing possible to ensure that it collects taxes that we are supposed to collect but the problem is the monainty is also very clever with the accountant we have right now trying to help the business person a very paying taxes and that the biggest problem that we have you know in as much as a country a country's economy cannot grow but taxing its citizens I don't think this is an over tax but in the same way the citizens are as rich as the government when the government is broke you as an individual feel it you will be broke so the more we work hard towards making our economy pamoja naja the same demands we make to the government the same demands we make to individual citizens let us build this country pamoja it's not Uhuru's responsibility to boost the economy it's not his responsibility alone I said alone because he also has a responsibility in curbing corruption in as much as you know the situation is that we lose more money than we make we make 11 shillings we lose 12 through corruption then now we go back to borrowing 13 shillings actually our debt is bigger and we have reactions from our viewers out there we ask them how do they feel about the 7.1 billion shillings the recovery debt and one of them is saying shawriake these are the give up and you see this in this country alone like I was saying UK is 10% job losses 10% out of their population is really big their GDP has dropped by 20% you see Ilari it's not in Kenya only USA same thing we need to understand that this is an international crisis and when big economy suffer our economy will definitely suffer and when this youth shelves that way I think it's a risk for this country because when you say shawriake this is your country at the end of the day you have to participate in ensuring that we have good governance we have good economy we have good things in place so when you talk of shawriake then you are talking to yourself you are saying it to yourself in one or the other because at the end of the day you are the government the government is not the person in charge your MP another thing that I want to raise is that we look at the corruption thing in a very different perspective but I look at it at a very different angle whereby we look at the person who has stolen billions of money one person but we forget 10,000 people who have stolen billions of money through getting small corruption things down here so when you look at one person maybe one billion now what about the 100,000 people down here who have walked away and taxed money that is even totaling to even 5 billion then we throw stones at one person who has run away with one billion so accountability on corruption starts with me and you allow me to read some comments from our viewers we have say a batch says tuning from Kakamega I think we better start trading off criminals to go and work there as a as a repay to the debt anyway good day family we have Kahushu Rapa says good morning we say Emma James good morning guys says Amo says good morning Kenya will never be able to recover from its debt simply because every single day the government is thinking on how to borrow other money without the strategies on how to pay the loans the common money will live as a prisoner to all says getting you live from Bungama thank you for watching Julian C.K.E. tuning from Kilifi he says wala na mna na Jinsi Mbavu Kenya kwa yu jumla ita jikomu kutukana na Madini kaya pesa kibao kama kila siku siri kali kwenendele kuchukwami kupo kila kona that is his field Bedi actually says macha tuning thank you for watching we have Habib the band 2 says this is not Kenya's debt it's the current government that is in the situation by mass corruption and looting and misplaced priorities we have mentioned about corruption nabadwa na posh bibi na nonsensu na ok that is your take we have Bramuel Boque says I am falling from Kawanguare I think the government should ensure stolen money meant for development should be recovered and reduce borrowing so much of borrowing here and of course even the spending aha so those are some of the let me say something about the borrowing I have nothing against the government because I mean with such huge infrastructural developments the government needs to borrow and the government does not operate the government operates just like a normal citizen you see the same way you run your household that's the same way the government runs the country that right now you want to buy a car you want to build a house and you want to start a business that is not enough for all that no so why do you think that the country wants to build roads how many new roads do we have right now don't even talk about corruption but everywhere you go you find a road under construction we want to be the dominating economy in East Africa how are you going to achieve all that we cannot have this infrastructural development without borrowing the money there is nothing wrong with borrowing the money and there is no time to understand it I want to understand the government will pay and it will still borrow more the borrowing is not going to start I want us to end as you respond to that please tell us where will be the last economic consequences of COVID-19 and lastly what should we do in relation to risks now I want to say this I don't have a problem with borrowing but I have a problem with too much borrowing that we can also stay in that time we raised concern on the Mombasa port and the leaders on the government said it is fallacious okay but I read that report recently which states too much borrowing will make us lose our port lose the Kenya railway lose our airport Kenya power that has also been used then also Kenjin there are a number of prostatos big prostatos that have been used as collateral to borrowing and too much borrowing has an impact Zambia has lost this airport to Adona we have this is a country in Middle East when the citizens work all the taxes are paid to China I am telling the truth we have Tanzania that it has done its development on the monies that it has collected from its own revenue not much borrowed we have the administration of Kibaki that had less borrowing but it did a lot so when mechanisms are put in place well managed mechanisms then we won't have much borrowing our country has a huge appetite of borrowing but mismanagement of funds at the end of the day the Eurobond that was borrowed and mismanaged we are supposed to pay we went to France the other day we signed for another monies that has already come here the doctors around strike I was talking to a medical officer from one of the counties and I was telling him now the government has released the money do you know this person did he tell me I am telling the truth before God, before we were just running just to run but there is no penny the government has released to the counties which is very true when I asked the person because this person is also very political when I asked this person then why are you, why are the government supporting BBI and funds are going to be released for referendum and yet we have medical medical activities at stake he said we've been gagged okay so it is we are at risk in one way or the other when we go down getting the facts I'm telling the truth you'll be shocked so the presidents releasing the money but in the real sense there's no money in the counties and I can tell you the truth there are no monies in the counties finally with the one 32 billion shillings recovery which is to go to the water sanitization agriculture housing transport to resume health education this was launched by the president on Friday last week is it going anywhere like the government does not release doctor salaries together with the development infrastructure development money that is why the doctors have called off the strike it's not all about the salary there's no, there's nothing in the counties that is running nothing in the counties that is running that is why the doctors have called off the strike and postponed it to two weeks because what the governors do the governors are not foolish I mean the only 47 of them they all know each other you see what that does the worst mistake that we ever did it disunites the doctors because why will your doctors strike they have PPEs they have everything his doctors on the other hand have nothing everything where the disparity comes in so his will be like to strike because they already have everything that they needed so that disunity where the county governors give doctors that disunity that is what works for them but the money is not is not released together with development governors were very clear by the way what they did when they were given it was a conditional grant it wasn't funding from the from the national government when they were given that money it was at a time when covid numbers were going down so they looked for kangalia to be patiwa nikona 2 billion 2 billion zapato kuchesanato and this covid looks like it has gone away so what did they do instead of building capacities in the hospitals they paid for the tenders and for them it makes more sense for the governors to pay for the tenders because there is kickback there there is no kickback in buying hospital equipment so right now if governors had not been given that money we would know about it all of them would be talking and calling press conferences saying they had not been given the money they were given the money but the money was spent on other people operanya said that himself when tangula was asking wangamati about the 260 million he was given to manage covid things and we said it is all political this and this and this there was a difference between covid money because we were given grants by the donor countries to manage covid so the covid money it was disperse to each and every country so the covid money is different from the normal monies the government gives to the county that is okay until there we are okay but the covid monies each and every county received covid money so why are doctors right now playing about PPEs and everything else when that covid man was supposed to take care of when we talk of the doctors and I remember we had the same discussion here the last time I was here when you talk about doctors I've always said this if doctors were like teachers when they come to strike they have very clear reasons why they strike and how they want them met but the county government doctors they come we say we want salaries we want PPEs then there is no clear communication is like you are confused they go to strike doctors from different counties having their own issues so that is how they have been concerned that is why I say they are confused because this is a wait first why am I saying this and I remember I said this why do we need a health commission you remember to push them where the teachers are and that is why I say and I am defending my statement they come on a confused strike alright thank you so much for for that heated conversation here I'm trusting the young people I've also learned something with the tax reversion saying that we have been there and the economy has to move on things have to move on they have been my guest Christine Kendi and Sarah's political analyst thank you so much for staying with us my name is Dereva Hillary see you after this break on Mataz Karia just come from the Boris Bar