 Lovely to see you thank you for coming out tonight. We have a really interesting discussion for you So for those who don't know, my name is Nigel Stuart. I'm the founder and director of an organization called the School of Penn African thought you heard of us Wow one clap Yeah, because it's hard work, thank you very much No, but we we're an online school that teaches African and Pan-African studies and I just want to say we're very proud to partner and be Working with the center of Pan-African studies because these types of debates are really really critical for public discourse And I think when we started this journey Daniel Micaela and I wanted to get to the existential question about What it means to be black what black means to Pan-Africanism and You know how we can you know really try to bring solidarity from all our communities And move forward as one so strap yourselves in you in for a very interesting debate and Without further ado, I'm heading over to Mikael Wardu. Thank you Nigel for the introduction. So my name is Mica Boldu I am a postdoc research fellow here at SOAS within the center of Pan-African studies Welcome everyone. So this is As Nigel mentioned the first you mentioned that we have a series of events. No So this is the first event of a series of three where we really wanted to unpack a new understanding of The diaspora the diaspora in the UK, but also how it ties to Other global diasporas and the continent as well. So today is the first event We really wanted to you know, bring this lovely panelist who bring different areas of expertise And perspectives into discussion. So trying to move away actually effectively moving away from a Conversation that only focuses on academia So we also had Lester who is running late, but so if you see someone coming and sitting next to this you know all of our panelists So without further ado, I will pass on to my panel to the panelist To just give us two sentence to introduce yourself and then we'll go into the conversation Okay, greetings everyone Okay, well, my name's what brother dr. Toyne Gbetu. That's the full name, but toyne is fine brother toys fine I am a Pan-Africanist. I am a scholar activist. I Work as an anthropologist at University College London. I'm What do I do I teach? Decolonizing anthropology national submissiveness in race order trouble-making topics and I look forward to reasoning my mind pan-listening yourselves I also run a pan-African organization called league areas Hi, I'm Isha or dr. Isha Phoenix and I'm a social justice lecturer at Kings College London And I'm also a UKRI future leaders fellow leading a research project on Understanding colorism among young people in the UK and many of you might know what colorism is but for anyone who doesn't I define colorism as Prejudice in which people are penalized the darker their skin is or the further the features are from those associated with whiteness Hello, I'm Kalechi or car for I'm happy to be here Okay Okay, so maybe we'll start with Yes So I guess so today what we really wanted to unpack in this a conversation is To not only reflect on the current experiences of black people in Britain, but also look at how Things have shifted over the decades, right? So You started your career really kind of in relation to grassroots organizing So this has been really at the core of your work and you tell us more about legality as well And I wonder and also you define yourself as a scholar activist Can you tell us a little bit more about that and what have you observed particularly with your community organizing? African Time all of that What do you start okay, so a scholar activists just read I'm talking about the intersection between Being a nerd and I'm a nerd. I love my sci-fi. I love my comics vinyl completely 100% nerd But I'm also an activist. I hate injustice and so I Work quite hard to challenge apropos and kind of like anything that affects African people I should say just from a starting point. I don't use racializing language So you won't hear me talk about black people white people yellow people green people You'll hear me talk about Africans Europeans Asian Indian. I talk to people with respect with ethnicity Doesn't mean that if you use those terms that I'm kind of like, you know, my nose up to you It's just something I can't do because it's something why no So legality started at that's the Pan-African organization I ran started well around 20 odd years ago looking at misrepresentation of African people and culture in the media That's because I became a father and I noticed that my children were being affected by the images of what they were seeing in School on posters and soaps dramas radio stations even comics And so it was a really simple mission just to challenge those narratives I could talk about those things as questions come up later on But what happened over the decades was that I realized that we had to move away from just challenging these misrepresentations of African History culture and people to start in producing what we wanted to see because we kept on that today in a responsive Kind of way what happened something would happen would react something else would happen really act So I mean I remember dealing with these tenders in a day You know when the represent now you see your standards and you see all these dramas and everything looks kind of diverse It wasn't like that, you know, I'd be at home somebody be calling up from the BBC a toy There's gonna be a program on BBC to tonight. Well, it's called a trouble with black men You need to deal with this man getting to deal with it And I'll be like who's talking they'll be like, you know what actually you don't need to know my name Just deal with it and so we deal with it We're calling the you know the executive producers. So it was that kind of focus initially I've seen a lot of changes And I'm not gonna go through them all now But what I will say is that I know there's a series called defiance out right now Which is talking about the struggle of the South Asian community against racism I haven't seen it yet, but I'm hearing good things about it. And this is in many ways is kind of like The crux of why I'm a pan-Africanist as well because I wear many hats like all of us do So I'm a pan-Africanist first and foremost human rights centered definitely Do I align myself with being politically black? Yes, I do am I black? Well, of course, I'm not black I mean, I'm brown. That's black. You know, I mean, it's ridiculous the racializing language But I understand what we mean when we say black as an anthropologist. I can't use racializing language We're not talking about facts. This is white. I have never seen a person other than albino Who's that color? So when we're using these kind of color coded terms, we're actually re-inferming this racializing language So I've seen the shift and the reason why I talked about defiance because just yesterday I remember on that platform called X by the musky boy There was an image and it said something about how That that act of defiance by the South Asian community was the birth of the British black community And I just chuckled to myself well No, because politically black at the time was a thing because actually unity between African and Asian communities was strong The the old wad center. It was it was a real thing What we see now with the madness in Parliament where we see kind of like this illusion of of inclusion We see diversity which is actually toxic diversity is what happened Which is why the africanists, you know, why we separated but it doesn't mean that there's not those of us Who actually like working together so to talk about pan-Africanism we have to be specific It's not black empowerment because black empowerment changes every five minutes. What's defined as black? Pan-Africanism is really about people of African heritage and that goes back to the 15th century That's talking about people from the Caribbean. It's talking about people from the continent. It's talking about people in the diaspora It's a very rich Topic and so that's what my work has always been about So I can talk like I mean, I have a follow-up question because you talk about yes because you know, of course As the center of an African studies We also want to kind of reflect the ways the legacy of an African is but the different iteration of an African is And what does that mean in practice today, right? And so you you spoke about how language has shifted over time and you know, where are some of I guess the benefits and limitations of Fusing racial language or not from from your perspective But you know pan-African is is also, you know, it's solid like a movement of solidarity does anti-imperialism and anti So it kind of moves also beyond in some way. I think some there was a question from the audience From the questionnaire, but as you know, what does that what does pan-African mean when you're related to other? Social justice movement is it only, you know for Africans from Africa whether it's directly indirectly And Africanism I merely benefits African people But in doing that in looking after the condition the material conditions of African people it benefits the entire world It's really important to understand that there's also been this is saying I forget the quote exactly It's something about you can tell this quality of the civilization by the way it treats its most vulnerable people So even though right now I'm engaged in looking at the plight of Palestinians, for example I'm never lost sight of the fact of what African people experience continuously even now during this is still ongoing And there's complete silence on this but pan-Africanism is always been a global movement It's always been a humanistic movement But again, it's it's it's the reason why language is so specific So, you know, if we were all in here, we had a time machine I pulled the lever down and we went back in time and moved to 50 years ago We'd be talking about so I'd be saying I'm a lovely colored guy and I'm very proud of my colored roots And that's what we'd be saying if we hit a time machine and go no, that's not enough We pull it back again and whoosh. Okay, because now Negro rights are the most important thing that we must be discussing Right, we keep going back. We go to the n-word. Okay these terms shift because they're not our terms We didn't define them. No African would define the n-word. It's impossible. It dehumanizes us and we don't you so those terms we've inherited The reason why I'm a pan-Africanist and reason why language matters so much If we take a side that some of the greatest scholars in our history from the Malcoms, you know from the John Henry class I mean some of the greatest scholars have said that we're Africans and we're just dismissing that when we ignore that It's just the simple things right now There's this this this tend to talk about anti-blackness, you know There's anti-black thing and I get it and so I don't like to be pedantic because I'm from a generation of Pan-Africanist that sometimes can be a bit overzealous with the policing, you know the whole tips. I'm a whole unfortunately You know, it's really irritating. I sign off everything with peace, which means hotel and and I can I do wear traditional clothes And I do have glasses. I don't wear an anorak, but I am a traditional pan-Africanist But anti-blackness is not the same thing as Afrifobia Afrifobia specific term It's been ratified by the European Union because the UK is outside of the European Union now So we don't have the protections and a specific piece of legislation that protects people of African heritage But yet in the UK we we go back to use an anti-blackness Which means that we don't have any protection and it's because we think we're being radical, right? We're watching things like the Black Lives Matter movement We're not questioning things like what grew from that the response of the Ados movement, which is the Americans of Was it a mechanism of slavery? What about the the FBA foundational black Americans? These are African people who are denying the African ancestry one route in their Story their legacy to slavery, which is badness and others are eradicating the history of Amur Indians They're saying that they would be a before the Amur Indians So this confusion comes about when you take another people's ideology. We have enough scholars We have enough literature. We have enough Historians to tell us that we are Africans with different shades different routes, you know, especially the different culture So that's kind of like why I'm very from that language What comes out from everything that you just shared is also not only who defines Blackness, right? But also who gets excluded and so who gets to find to define within us within kind of the Africans of our community, whatever terminology you want to use who is included and who is not and I wanted to touch on Aisha on your research on colorism and whether you found I mean What are some of your findings because obviously it's one of the first thing you want to do the first research Looking at colorism the UK specifically In terms of who gets to define Who is included in this black narrative Thank you So that's one that's come up quite a lot in different projects that I've Different research projects that I've been involved with looking at colorism in the UK Is this contestation around blackness and who gets to be included within the boundaries of blackness? And so we've had participants who've got one white parent and one black parent who Define themselves as black and who might live in a rural area and be read as black by White racist people around them. So their experiences are of vile racism. They're read as black people But when they then come and encounter black groups that define themselves as black They say, oh, well, you don't you don't fit here Why are you here? You don't belong and that that's really painful because there's this juxtaposition between their Experiences and then how they're treated in those in those other groups And so that's something that we've explored quite a lot with different participants And it's very painful and I think colorism because of the way in which it pits people of different skin shades Against each other including black people it has a very detrimental impact on that ability to To kind of work with people and and recognize and respect others because if you feel that you're being Treated badly because your skin's dark and you've had experiences at school Which we've we've had repeated in in the research We've done of being called bleak or meat having jokes made about the lights go out Or we can't see you and it's really finding it. Oh, it's just banter, but it's not just banter for you The impact of that then can need to Distrust resentment of people with light skin who you feel are getting unjustified privilege and it goes both ways and that is that's very damaging And I remember because just before we started we were having a little bit of a conversation on this And because it's it's also, uh, I mean, this is something that I found for example, uh, in my current research project What I'm looking at how um second generation of Africans descent in the uk so the children of african migrants in the uk Navigate their multiple identities. So some and and I'm looking specifically our people who are, um, you know Eritrean, Ethiopian, Nigerian and Ghanian heritage and so one thing that I were You know somebody of Eritrean descent shared with me was, you know growing up she was she did not It was basically most of the discrimination that she received was from other black kids Because she did not Present as black in the way they was constructing at the time where she was growing up things have changed now Right, but again at the time Of course, there is an element of color is but also You you become the the I think you you wrote something in your paper The perpetrator and also the the victim so it's not it's not clear Uh clearly defined, right? You don't only play a role I don't know if you had any other reflection of this Um, if you came up in your research as well So in terms of in terms of that both being that being subjected to colorism and perpetrating it that did come up Quite a lot and what was really interesting was when you're talking to So I read did research with students in years eight and nine. So they're 13 I think 13 14 and then in sixth form who was 17 16 17 18 And what they were saying was predominantly the people making with most banter were black Young men and they were black young men with medium skin tones light skin tones dark skin themselves Making jokes about other people with dark skin and sometimes it was young women as well But it was very sometimes you felt like it was a preemptive strike So if I say something really bad about your skin shade everyone will laugh at you not me So there was that and other times it was people with lighter skin who felt exempt from this because they weren't going to be subjected to colorism Having a joke said the expense of someone else. Um, so it was very very painful And although students characterized it as banter I did one interview with one young man who was saying he said he described himself as the black frankenstein He said I'm the darkest person you'll ever see. I'm you know, I'm like frankenstein people cross the road when they see me Because I mean I must look really frightening and he'd really internalized his negative these negative Racist colorist statements that people made about him But then I had a focus group with him and his friends And what was really interesting then was that they were like, oh, it's just banter. It doesn't matter And I'm I'm there trying not to look at him But knowing that he did not just see it as banter but his friends when I call it doesn't matter You know, they were all black young men in this focus group But they they didn't understand the impact and I was trying to Trying to explore it trying to tease it out in that room without saying your friend doesn't think it's just banter Um, so so that's that's one thing in relation to that and it was interesting what you were saying then about the Eritrean Eritrean young person who wasn't who wasn't defined as black And when I did research quite a few it must be 15 years ago. I think with young Somali young people I was it young there were six formers and they were young women and they were saying One of them was like am I black? I don't know and others were like, oh, we're not black And they're not they weren't being seen as black They weren't being read as black at the time And so that was that was really interesting thinking about thinking as you as you raised the question of the boundaries of blackness It's very much contested and as as you were saying it shifts and changes over time So who's included in in one decade will not necessarily be included in another decade And you you raised the question the the topic of political blackness that's changing and how how that's seen the kind of The um appreciation for the the idea of political blackness where people are grouped from different racialized backgrounds are grouped together And under this kind of this umbrella to challenge racism isn't as popular now as it was decades ago And and so I think it's really important to look at the shifts and positioning and how that changes And did you want to Yeah, I mean just on the exclusion point. I mean the two things. I mean actually the the color is an issue um It's really interesting. I did a I mean a documentary some years ago called few years which dealt with this issue um from a pan-African perspective and I remember talking to is a friend of his artists Uh, uh, uh, we were chatting about why we perpetrate some of these issues amongst ourselves And he said something always stayed with me He talked about African people not inherently those African people or many of us not believe in that we're beautiful It reminded me of dr. Clark's test where we don't think of us or we don't have that self-worth because he explains If you start looking at the crime that we commit against ourselves take out all the economic factors There's also this issue about beauty You cannot destroy something that you find beautiful It's very difficult to do that if you find something that's Intrusively beautiful. You kind of want to protect it. You want to preserve it You don't want to destroy it and because we're socializing a way to see blackness as dirty Malcolm gave all the examples of all the synergies that come in the words that That blackness is supposed to represent what happens is that therefore it's easy to attack each other So that's I mean that's one thing on the beauty shift So the colorism is a real issue the banter thing also is like triggering because I remember The Metropolitan police when we get on hearing the issues about why is there institutional racism? Even though the current head doesn't agree with that one of the things I used to say it was banter in the canteen Well, we know that banter has serious impacts on us has serious violent impacts on us So you're right about the banter not just on our level, but also in the institutional level It's never just banter but on the exclusion that ties into it because You know, I'm not gonna say I'm ashamed of but something I have to acknowledge I was raised in the culture of manafricanism and I say manafricanism as opposed to pan-africanism because when I was learning my my my You know, you know my my business on the streets of of of london as a pan-africanist All the scholars all the role models everyone came through from a male perspective and I'm not ashamed of some of those but the exclusion of women from that movement was quite disgusting and That has had some serious consequences Because what it means is that we exclude on on on the basis of colorism We exclude on the basis of gender And the odd one is that we explain on we exclude on the issue of geographical Colonizers and what I mean is that my wife is from st. Lucia So, you know, what happens is that st. Lucia is quite funny because it had the english's colonizers for one moment Then the french's another and so we kind of like this, you know, they There's this against, you know, those who are pan-africans who they are against all colonizers But if you are coming from west africa You tend to be more anglophone in your way of thinking about who the racist who the enemy is If you come from somewhat like Senegal's one of my favorite places to be you tend to be very francophone about it And so we have these exclusionary patterns about who's the problem and that works against us because it means we also Link with those from those particular regions who speak the same language as the colonizers And so Eritreans obviously the whole of east africa is often excluded from the discourse about pan-africanism As if they didn't have any contribution to be made from it And so this is something else when it comes to exclusion that we have to if we open And and the legacy we see if you go to someone like bristol You'll find that the Somali community for example are africans just like you and I Are treated as if they're somehow different. They're not black enough When if you look at the history of black politics and I mean black in its Sense that was given to us the Irish were once rendered black They were seen as black and then what happened they went to america They started to press in african-americans and so they earned their whiteness stripes and they become part of team whiteness And so they no longer were black. So these boundaries of of racialization Continuously shift dependent on who's convenient to what power dynamics in place. We haven't got time for those games We observe them study them acknowledge them But we need as a family to recognize that we're african or of african heritage and that's really where it starts from Can let you um One thing that i've noticed, um, you know, um across your work, whether it be, you know, the podcast your writing Your social media Present is a often you're one of the people the few people that really kind of Talks about an inclusive movement, but also practice it right even with the With the pole dance studio, right Because how do we so inclusion and exclusion doesn't only happen across, you know With the heritage and history of colonial has happened You mentioned gender But also, you know, uh, that there is definitely class gender identity and sexuality And many speak on this but not not as many practice it So why do you think it's so important to, you know, speak now speak but really move from the place of No one is free until we all free um I feel like it's it's a it's a journey, isn't it? It's a journey that we're all on and I've been forced on the journey to Let go of labels so I don't Ascribe any label label to myself. I wouldn't call myself an activist for instance Because when people have called me that other people have jumped up and gone. She's not an activist because she has a life. So like So like, okay fine. I'm not gonna have to this then like there's always a reason right and I just think To myself, okay Beyond the label. What are you doing? Like what are you doing? Do people feel safe around you and some people that I encounter have the most esteemed Titles and labels, but they're very Harmful in their immediate environment yet. They'll get every accolade under the sun and all the institutional respect But for me, it's just like I just I just want to I just want to be cool with everybody as many people as I can be cool with and so I can't I see beyond gender. So if somebody says to me these are my pronouns for instance Who the hell am I to bring out the dictionary and go wow If we're looking at plurality that what what what does that I don't care, you know It's all about being able to see the person because so many of us know what it feels like to be unseen and when you're not seen then atrocities can be committed against you and You're forgotten in history that you're just forgotten. So to me Movements that historically leave out women for instance leave out them identifying people leave out queer people They're not my movements because they there can't be any political stance that says that these people are worth leaving behind And then we think that that's a just political stance to take if we're not all coming then i'm not going as far as i'm concerned And this is really important. So we recently had a lecture by professor Hakeem Adi, you know We had the launch of our center And you know and one of the things that came up from his lectures and many speak of our forefathers Of the fanatical movement, but we don't hear as much of the foremothers, right? And then as you said, what about all the other people? who Have contributed to this movement, but we don't hear about it. The voices are not recorded We don't learn about it in the classroom in the discussion. They're not in the room, right? Again, it goes into this conversation about who gets to define those experiences and Who is left behind who is who are on the margins? right Welcome No, thank you for joining us I guess I wanted to You know, we've been having a conversation on how things have shifted over time for black people in britain and I wanted to Ask you a bit something about the voice, right? So somebody who didn't grow up in the uk So I had to do the research. Okay. This is an important newspaper. They, you know came to Exist for pretty specific reasons that are needed They were needed then but now, you know continue to be needed So I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about your time at the voice of the you had you were there different times, right? Yes, that's right. Yes, so What have you noticed through your work and how have things shifted from you know when you first joined to when you joined again I think in the 2000 And also maybe a little about the voice for those who are not familiar with the newspaper Okay, well apologies for being late The voice is is now and has been for a few years. The the only black A national newspaper in the uk, which I think says something about the state of Black media or certainly the legacy black media. Anyway, it's got a lot more New new media coming coming on board Before I get to the voice, I think it's just worth noting that, you know, that was not the first Black newspaper. There were others you know, West Indian worlds launched by Claudia Jones And you had the Caribbean times as well, which are if Ali led and those new nation as well, which closed in 2009 and and those papers were Black newspapers, which were unapologetically pan-african to a large extent and certainly very very cognizant of anti-colonial narratives as well So that that in a way is the you know, some of the some of the history behind the voice the voice was set up in as a reaction to the 1981 uprising In in Brixton, but it happened across the uk as well and it started as as a radical paper Kind of lost its way a little bit and is on a very very slow path I think to try to get it back whether it's too late or not Obviously is another is another question all together in terms of the the voices approach to to pan-africanism and and identity Obviously, it's a big question. It certainly hasn't been an obstacle, but Hasn't been the the greatest champion certainly over the last two years When I was there, we did a lot of articles about reparations Which is kind of pan-africanism in a way And in some ways a good vehicle because You know to talk about identity as well Because you know, it's it really is about that that sort of reawakening to a certain extent Not just amongst the the wider black community but actually amongst other communities to sort of, you know, challenging challenging history and and challenging the Yeah, just, you know The foundation of which this country was was was built if you like But I think there's a long long way to go because there hasn't been much polling It hasn't been much research done on public opinions to do with reparations So I'm segueing a little bit away from the question But the little it has been done has actually shown that Just only slightly over half of all black people polled Were in favor of of reparations. So there's there's a big big Way to to go of that. I think the voice has a as a responsibility to Try and fight back against that, but it can't can't do that Alone and it's really up against the the media Landscape that we have that, you know, we can't deny the fact that We live in a, you know, well, we always lived in a hostile environment But, you know, in some ways it's actually getting more hostile and it has been for the last few years And it looks like it's going to continue as well. So so that's that's the battleground I think but there's there's a long way to go. Yeah I also wanted to Ask about your work within the trade union So I think you were part of the task force For the anti-racism work and I specifically asked this As a reflection to, you know, the history that the pan-African movement has had with unions Over the years, right and thinking about spaces that are meant to be the, you know, to safeguard All their members and yet, you know, like people within those spaces are not necessarily safeguarded in the same way historically Right Yeah, I thought they would like completely sound negative with my every answer But the unions are not as political as they used to be They that's coincided with the them losing half their members since in the last 20 years But, you know, in the past I used to be involved in anti-racist groups like anti-racist alliance That they used to be funded by trade unions That they, you know, trade unions were unapologetic or they used to be about standing up for refugees Standing up for all oppressed communities and being More sort of, you know, race-conscious than they are today Some of the big ones I think have become sort of many kind of corporations in the way in terms of the way of Thinking about servicing the members with services as opposed to actually fighting for their rights So the, you know, the trade union congress, I was part of it Had an initiative called the anti-racism task force Which was led by Patrick Roche who's one of only three Black trade union leaders And it was basically like herding cats because the By and large, I think there's a real reluctance within the trade union movement To to to organize amongst black communities Quite frankly, which is kind of crazy And if you look at where the real gaps are in trade union membership It's in the private sector in particularly in the parts of the private sector where you have a very high Black workforce, so doesn't make any sense like not to not to do that at all really But, you know I guess we are where we are. I think the trade union movement overall has been sort of intimidated really by anti-trade union legislation We've had lots of it Over the the last sort of, you know, 40 years Not just in the toys actually So, you know, there's there's confidence I think has sapped From the trade union movement and there's sort of like a reluctance to get involved in things which are sort of You know seen as outside the workplace, but actually anti-racism or you know Tackling racism in the workplace is actually not outside the workplace at all. They could do a lot better And there's a lot more things that trade unions can do and we were trying to push and Put them on the table Because we know that you know at root to a lot of the racial disparities that we see in housing and health And other areas is actually caused by, you know Economics is caused by the amount of money in your pocket and the barriers to to entering work to progressing in work and, you know, You know the issues to do with discipline and and stuff like that So, you know The tackling workplace racism is so important and, you know, trade unions In certain places have what's called sectoral collective bargaining agreements Where they tend to sort of talk about health and safety and and pay But actually why can't they be bargaining? For race equality, you know pushing those employers and actually getting Getting agreements or signed in blood From the bosses to actually say and so both the trade unions and the work and the employers Own this agreement, which actually says, you know, these are our targets. This is what we're going to do This is our action plan And you know, that's what they can do. But actually it's not happening at the moment I don't know what we can do To try and change it other than join Trade unions, but sometimes even that You know is is fine up to a point But then when you're actually getting to senior levels and challenging for those high positions, then you have Big big problems and I'm a little bit around here, but actually When you look at the recent Contests for general secretary, okay, so unison is the biggest trade union and A good friend of mine for many many years Roger mckenzie Went he was a deputy general secretary for quite a while went for the top job lost out To you know, christine mackinac and then was actually effectively kicked out a gmb You had you had an asian Sister who was was again deputy challenged for the top job lost out and then was was pushed out So if you're pushed out at the moment when you lose out Then how how how is that a going to encourage anybody to actually go for the top job? And you know and and and be what sort of signal does it send to to People who you know join trade unions and feel so passionate about workers rights That they actually really want to progress in that in that organization So so long long way to go and you know, it is a disappointing picture at the moment. Yeah Yeah I want us to So I want us to think about kind of the different tools and means Through which we can you know approach social justice You know, we really with legality you use Films as well education also the arts the role of the arts, which I think Is something that is often missing in discussion particularly within the academic spaces, but also in the activists Whatever that means space right and really the arts are often the tools that help to kind of democratize this knowledge It really allows everybody to engage with this With this information and knowledge and then go off to you know I guess apply it in their day-to-day lives um I like to come to you and with your With your book I go here your collection of your anthology What struck me, you know when I was reading the book is that You're almost inviting us to imagine So it relates to realities that really present, you know, it's really connected to our Reality with the collectively but also imaging alternative futures And so it feels to me and this is not only with your book but also in your other work That you really encourage us to imagine a world where you know, as you said, everybody's free, but also It's a movement that is inclusive Right, so why do you think it's important to use the arts? It's you know, all the different means they use to communicate this message and You know, do you think that this is more powerful or What was the benefit about adopting this strategy? Yes I feel like any tools that we have we should use them, you know, um I didn't always consider myself to be a writer. It was only when I was approached around 2020 I mean, I've always been tweeting, you know, I stay tweeting But So I didn't consider myself to be a writer until one of my friends she DM'd me one day on twitter or x whatever And she said you really need to stop writing for free I was like, no, she was like, but you're you're writing threads girl Like they can make a whole garment like you're writing and so people take your words and then they go and get commissions to write the pieces So be more serious about your thoughts as you're writing them And so she helped me to kind of shift my perspective on what I was sharing because before I would see my Tweets end up in an article and I'm like that's so cute not realizing that my work has been mined Um And so she was she helped me shift my perspective and she actually introduced me to the Person that got me to write my first article and then I was writing more and more and I really started to think Yeah, I've got things to say Um, there's a particular mode or way that I might speak on social media But it's not necessarily the way that I write and it's not the way that I go On to the news for instance to speak Um, you have to be able to switch it up and all my life I just thought I was just going to be an actress when I was younger I just thought oh, I'm going to be an actress not realizing that the same skills that one would use in terms of acting I was meant to use in another way um and that creativity And so I feel like the problem one of the problems that we face a major problem that we face in our society is that upon Everything else our imagination is under attack and that's that's to me the issue the fact that We can't when you say to somebody like imagine a world different to the one you're living now A lot of people can't do it. They they literally cannot visualize Something else other than this because we've been conditioned to believe well This is the only way it can be and then we had lockdown and then some things Policies that we were told were hard and fast were changing overnight So that really got me to start thinking about How we're played with and how how how our mind is played with and if our minds are colonized Then we're just going to go along with whatever it is that we're told And I know um, I say this um, I've said this quite a few times, but shakespeare was talking about something else right when he said Allegedly to sleep per chance to dream right he's talking about something else But I'm going to take that literally like to sleep for you to have a chance to dream right But then I think about the ways in which we've had to work our parents and our like how they've had to work If you're tired, you don't have time to dream you can you don't even get time to sleep So if I can't dream when you tell me about liberation What are you talking about because I I don't have the mental capacity currently to envision what that looks like You know, so that's why we've got people like, um, you know organizations like the map and nap ministry when we are actively seeking rest I went to watch a play. Maybe some of you can help me. I've forgotten the name Um at the it was at strapped third and it was a minstrel show Oh, yeah And they you they realized that they're in a minstrel show and there was just one character Pambon bones. Yes Thank you And um, one of them just really wanted to sleep his whole like arc In that movie in that play was that he wanted to sleep And I feel like that went over a lot of people's heads that he wants to rest A lot of us wants to rest But we're not given the chance to do so and it's not just the rest in order to physically rest our bodies There needs to be a state that our mind goes into in order for us to access our creativity And we're not being allowed it. So edge of here is an exercise for me in Trying to encourage that. I mean so many incredible writers have come for me I'm not like, you know reinventing the wheel or anything But just imagining what would it be like if we're looking at the um technology and how as black people We're interacting with technology. What does that mean for us? And what does that mean for us in terms of love because sometimes when we're looking at movements Political movements. It's like we get like shy about speaking about love We get shy about speaking about spirituality if we put spirituality to the side If you're not doing the thing for love, why what's the point then? Where are we headed to if not to be able to um embody love truly honestly deeply and express that and experience that with each other What are we doing then? I don't want to go somewhere where it's just all about like, oh just general economic freedom That doesn't mean anything to me. So I can buy five nikes. Wonderful. Um, like, you know, it's It's it's um, I wanted to try a different mode of having conversations with people and also like also on a strategic level Some people might not watch my videos because colorism Right, so they see this person that's speaking Um might not be speaking in rp. You know, I'm using very colorful language So they might not take in what I'm saying In fact, they might call it a rant and I don't ever think that I'm ranting. I'm making points, you know So they might take it a particular way I still need to get in your house So how am I going to get in your house? Well, if I write a book, I have more of a chance of getting into your house And then once I make it into your home then to me We're near the end game because my Is now my my is my imagination see are possibly looking Is now in your home and Not so easy to get me off you if you think it right and so there are some people in the book that might not necessarily know anything of social media might not know about studio for any of that they won't know About the children's home. I've built Area all of these doing to me a single prong I expect certain things when I was a child Also, I think I came to England when I was alive from Nigeria. I was born in Nigeria And I often think about what would my life have been had I stayed in Nigeria. We weren't well off, right? You know, we were just living in mushy. So we weren't well off, right? So I don't know what life would have been like for me And so if I have the chance to why wouldn't I want life to be better? For you know, children right now who are out there that I can possibly positively Influence the trajectory of their life, and it's not just those children. I'm thinking about The ways that we're captured in images or African women, Nigerian women are captured in images And it's just shared across the world that they're sitting in their marketplaces Some of us as the diaspora will go and have a freaking photo shoot in the marketplace Using our own people as like a backdrop that's meant to look exotic or something And it's like we don't even take in who we're around We're we're interacting with our heritage From a colonialist lens. So my case study is that all right I'm going to build a resource center or I have built a resource center. So I need to kit it out in Nigeria If I make it so that these women in this area that I have their little market stores They're probably selling Indomie or they're selling sim cards or whatever the case may be They're doing these things and I give them access to the network that I've built over the years Being an influencer Knowing some super incredible academics and just wonderful people who are going to run courses for me via the internet That these people don't have to pay anything for but it can come and sit there Also get some resources as well nappies whatever the case may be they get to come into this place They take in all of this knowledge I wonder what life will then be like for them in like 10 15 years and then what are we doing in terms of changing That area and the specific area that I built the children's home in Um, there was in 2006. I believe there was a massive explosion there because the oil You know shell all of them lot that oil pipe ran through that area And I think people were trying to tap the oil pipe in that area and it caused a massive So everything got taken to the ground so many people died And they've only started what you know in recent years rebuilding themselves in that area and so I didn't even know at the time. So it wasn't like me being super cute I didn't know until you know, we got the land and I started working and I realized what had happened there And I feel that there is something there about even like reclaiming. Thank you even us like reclaiming our World like our story because these conglomerates and corporations can come in and just interfere With our life and because of the socio-economic spaces that we find ourselves in or experiences that we find ourselves in We do things that might be risky and then end up getting hurt for it so Any mode that I have whether it's the pole dance studio to encourage people to explore their sensuality more because we talk about the power of the erotic You know and how we all create from an erotic space, whether we want to realize that or not The pole dance is doing that thing my social commentary is doing that thing because I want to be a black woman sharing my opinions and nobody's going to tell me to not share those opinions The book is doing its own thing because I'm hopefully encouraging us to imagine something different because curiosity and imagination is the beginning I thought of our liberation so that's going on and then I've got the children's home as Something that I don't know lots about in terms of how I'm running it But I know that I'm smart enough that I know lots of smart people and lots of people who are dedicated to the work So they'll help me and my mum to figure it out So for me, it's just like anything I've got it's just all You know all the barrels like let's go whatever it takes um because It is psychological warfare. It is constant trauma that we are engaging with and If some of us have the mental capacity to do so, we have to use everything that we've got um You know to to try to kind of push back on that Thank you um I'm conscious of time Because it's uh seven and I know that you probably have questions Do you have questions? Yes Okay Okay, um The mics yes, where are the mics? Maybe while we wait for the mics to be ready um You mentioned an important point that we haven't discussed today as much Particularly the relationship between the diaspora and the continent Right. So as people who are having this conversation within the diaspora, what does it mean for us to engage With africa in a way that it doesn't Replicate some of the really problematic dynamic that already exists And in a way there is ethical Right. Well, as you said, we just so happened like myself. I was born and raised in italy And I'm now here in the uk because I have an italian passport, right? So We just so happened to be in this place that we and it could have been very different So what does that mean for us? Uh, and I guess this is open to to the whole panel What does it mean for us to engage ethically with the continent in a way that Um, you know, doesn't replicate those problematic dynamics Um, that's a really important question. It's a really good one. Um I I I'm part of a discipline that was involved in the colonization of our marble land I work in it. I'm an anthropologist and I even hate saying that Um, that's why I teach decolonizing anthropology, but even then there are limits and um, it's important to say that it's important to recognize that because I I tend to think and uh The sister Kali she's very what you said about imagination is so critical because I think that we're engaging spiritual warfare I think that our minds are being colonized. So when it comes to working with the marble when it was working with the continent I actually don't believe that we ourselves are the ones to do that work I think our response, but I don't think you just hit by accident. That's another thing So I think whatever the ancestors plan was for you. You're here for a certain reason And you might not know it but You know, your job is I think fan and talks about either betray the mission or you realize it. So you're working to realize it So the mission for us really who are here in the diaspora is to understand the climate understand our enemy to understand our systems To see the opportunities not to go back and recognize The marble land I hear a lot of times that people leave in front of diaspora saying I'm going to go back to Africa And I'm going to teach them how to do this and all We're just silly under misunderstanding that a content of over a billion people that you want Somehow know something more than them. It's kind of like how the western democratic systems work Where you've got these two kind of like and I'm not an agist but you've got these two old men in America And the people are just accepting that they are the best choices out of all of them Yeah, this is how we sometimes go back if we think about the history of Liberia and we think about it Was the american colonization? What's the organization that that started that process? We often go back to the motherland with this colonized mindset You know, I know that that's dangerous. I know that we can re-inscribe those problems when we go in there We have our money and our money has this this artificial Like a value that's over anything. It's like we are actually engaged sometimes in enslavement We don't see it that way But if you're giving someone like 50 pound to do it a year's work of work Then you're in saving them. You don't see it that way. You rationalize it differently It doesn't mean that we don't have any role The role that we have is actually to seek out roles who are doing the work And then to use our resources our expertise and our connections and our relationships to empower them to do better I remember when I I did some work in Ghana's a place called aquitana and We have a lot of pan africanists across the continent Despite what the media tells us about the stuff the flies and the bellies and all that kind of nonsense We have a lot of pan africanists and I remember I was working in the hospital just building up their the IT system for them And um, I remember sitting down with a few who ran the hospital and the product said to me Actually, I mean it's in toyin, you know, I'm a pan africanist like you But what do I do? I run this hospital and 90 percent of our medicines come from the west We want to be able to develop those medicines inside today They they they kind of like made the structures look in a certain way that they were Very putic for our mental health abilities But when it came down to those core decisions, they were still important in the nonsense And so that's our role our role is to find out. How do you break these ip patterns that this all these kind of nonsense How do you how do you get the journals and actually find the information to bring a new class the training courses? For example, how do you do those kind of things? That's the work not to kind of like get caught up in this loriol approach. I am worth it. I am the one I am I am No, we're part of a long train along destiny of ancestors who brought us to this particular point right now And we either going to realize the mission or we're going to betray the mission And if we're going to realize it then that means okay It's a lifelong Mission. So sometimes we're going to be coaching while we're recharging and that's okay. It's lifelong It's like it's not a five minute process But when we're ready, then we find those allies we build those relationships Find those resources I call myself as an activist, but I'm very shy. I'm a musician at heart You know, I'm you know, that's I started off as a musician, right? So this whole thing about art is important But what's happening is I'm a nerd whether I like it or not. I can read those journals And I get it. I understand it. I put holes in their policies It's like I asked my wife to read an article and she kind of like She's got your book by the side of our bed I mean, I'm looking at she's going through it. She won't read anything. I write, you know So I'm realize it So I'm like, you know what? We've all there's a there's a beautiful Erudan Kishun. Every man does his way a little thing differently It's a perfect tune and we have to know who we are what we are. What is our strength? Where do we fit in and not be ourselves over the stick if we can't do things the same way everyone else did Look at the Black Panther movement. Look at the way they used art The way they they had their 10-point program to make sure they could communicate with everyone They had scholars. They had, you know, they had activists. I had men with guns I had women who were doing breakfast clubs. I had women who were strategists. They had the whole thing So I think what we're talking about diaspora. Sorry for the long run And it is around I know Thank you But but reality situation is like, you know, we have to recognize that it's a complex situation and that we The fact that we're talking in English and you understand me in English I mean, there's something I do with my students. I'm going to ask you right now. Just like those of you who Dream in English. Can you put your hands up, please? How many of you dream in English? Can you put your hands up? It's one of the languages Okay, no. No, I want to infer it. How many of you do not dream in English? Okay, look at that, right So this this when your dreams are colonized when you're using the language the colonial traps Of you know, it's got words in there and concepts and ideas and framing your aspirations in that language We have to recognize that we have a problem. It's why it's why uh in gugihua tiongo Made that massive decision to transfer his books. It's the reason why us men san ben decided he's another perfect example He's an amazing novelist. We've got bits of wood amazing novelists But he had to start making films because he couldn't talk to his people Through the film so he couldn't reach enough through the books. He couldn't reach enough They couldn't afford the books so he made films So we have to recognize that we our minds as much as we are dealing with this liberatory journey It's a lifelong process. It takes time to get there and so support those who are underground Don't go there thinking that we know better because someone who can speak three or four different languages Is is can't speak english the same way we can my competency in english doesn't make me. I'm intelligent It just means I'm competent in english Yeah I'm just I can see lots of questions So I don't I won't really say much but I would just say just to add to that think about the politics of trouble If you're going on the holiday think about who you're paying to get there What you're going to do there how you're being there is going to affect the other people who live there I think that's really important as well Okay, so raise your hands if you have questions Okay, uh, so you have one two three Let's start three at the time and then we'll follow Um Two ones I had a bit of great The panelists have really presented some interesting points But I feel that everything I've heard is all in the problem mode and an analysis of the problem So you have great understanding of the problem And people can talk for hours and hours and hours Problems this and all these problems, but solution mode you find people go quiet When you're asking to suggest a solution to the problems you've been talking about and analyzing so effectively so Power I'd like to know from each of the panels On the issue of power. What is the best identity? to effectively Organize the black diaspora in order to counter the power of white supremacy. What is the solution? What is your solution? I'm going to jump in on that Because I respectfully push back. I think that we have been Talking about solutions. I feel like one of the solutions in my part Anyway, is for instance the children's home one of my solutions is the book One thing that I can take Overlord of many things for instance that Toyin said, you know, that's been sharing with us You mentioned about accessibility and so when you ask Mikau about why do we use so many different forms of media to Express the ways that we think is because if we're talking about not leaving anybody behind Everybody needs to be able to access the information So it was mentioned then when he moved from books to films is because if I'm going to reach you in the films It makes it more easier for you to Imagine with me Then I'm going to go that way We can't sometimes I think that even when we start Talking in a in a problem and solution force binary or dichotomy We we limit ourselves Sometimes we are talking about the problem and the solution all at once Right because we first have to know what is making us ill in order for us to be able to heal it We have to be able to name it and of course that doesn't mean that we just stay with the Millets we we start looking at the ways that we will be able to heal ourselves Research that's been done by people like Aisha Makes all of the difference because again, we do need the stats So how are we going to go up against a power that has More stats than we do and we don't know um what we're working with um Having for instance newspapers For instance that that allow for people to read about their immediate experience in the way that arguably the voice has done throughout the years It's also part of um, you know these solutions. I I think that That they're um, I think that actually we are Moving towards solutions. We have a hard and hard because again like This is not a sprint I think that sometimes in our ego state um, and our ego moving Speaking more loudly. So our soul is eternal Ego state is speaking the ego state instead of dying if feeling and so talks about Time isn't really in that way. It's about time. So we are saying solutions solution like it's our ego beaming because immediate Standing and letting the soul come forth and our soul is a long journey Whether you like it or not, you might not even be you might see this but Ensure as how do as much pan to Awaken as possible as you can The work can get done I do feel like many Organizations many people as individuals that are doing the the the If we're if we're trying to be very very pedantic is community So until we can to get in various and and see each other actually move forward problem and so Here is a community um Part of the problem as you mentioned, um, I'll just stop going on part of the question um part of the question that you mentioned about this um problem thing is the fact that we said that is Spiritual warfare. We said that is psychological warfare. We are If we're talking about quantum physics or wherever we're talking about All of us in this room have our own individual reality that's taking place right now We're all looking at this this stage all of us looking at each other from different perspectives But so there's our individual reality and then there's also our collective reality We can agree that we are all in this room right now, right? Then we think about it on a macrocosmic scale That when we're talking about white supremacy when we're talking about this racist society that we're now Navigating we are in somebody else's reality or another, you know groups of people for this reality has been created over centuries So when we talk about imagination, we're not focusing on the problem We're focusing on the solution because if we can all collectively start imagining a new reality We can inhabit that reality So that in a long-winded way, I feel like we were talking about the solution Yeah Are we gonna answer questions from this side as well? Yes, let's uh, yeah, thank you answer that And uh, speaking of ego, please allow your ego to keep it very short. Thank you Not for you. Not for you The question the question. Yeah, no monologue, right? Put a size a vehicle Right. Thank you very much for everything that you've said and I grew up in Sierra Leone all of my siblings look a lot more like You and you and then I'm in the middle with this going on um And there was one other girl in my whole school Who also had this but everybody else in her family didn't look like her so it's um, you really see how I'm gonna say the word colorism but for example Um, like we lived with various relatives sometimes you have to go and get water People would come running up to me and say you shouldn't be carrying the water, but my younger sister smaller younger is all right for her so that's just a memory and um I like what you said about travel to go over various things that we said about trade unions They've never ever supported me in anything. I still pay the dues, but yeah, well, um, I wanted to um This thing about culture and how cultures are constructed um In our language, we don't have gendered pronouns. Do we we say we tell and say evil woody You know, we never use but at the same time when we're being educated, there's all these massive fights about in English about pronouns and but but what This kind of that the way it's becoming normal to you to fight on behalf of this thing That actually isn't your culture. I mean, we were brought up going to school in in I'm older than her but woolen felt hats and lasers and all under african sun Sorry, I'm just getting carried away because I wrote down so much and I know I don't have a lot of time So I'm trying to get to the end coming. There is a question coming There is a question coming the question is For a stuck. How do we get people to? Disengage with what has been driven into them over Centuries, there are people who don't talk to me because I don't pray to a white jesus I can't look at where he was born. Please don't tell me he had blonde hair and blue eyes But somehow I'm the bad one here. I mean Sorry, so the question is how do we get people to disengage and not be scared of the disapproval When they do disengage All right, we've got there in the end How do we get people to Oh, I try I try and be succinct right there's a I think there's there's a quote. I think it's nearly No, it's not it's not actually Tony Morrison actually puts it far better Uh, it's about the it's about the role of white supremacy and racism It serves to distract us. It just a needy fellow who talks about it confusing us And so what happens that we get engaged in distraction politics And it's because we humans and we care as a pan africanist I have to care about sexuality issues and pronouns because our community has people who are quave If I look at the history of James Baldwin, my favorite, uh, dsport movement was the Black Panther movement But they roughed him up badly, right? And so as much as I love both of them, it's like they roughed him up badly So I think you open up with this beautiful quote if you know, if everyone can't come and I'm not coming Something around that line. So we have to understand that but the point you're making about distraction Is very key and so I think this is where the nerdy part comes in You have to know what's your thing? What's your baby? What's your what's your specialism? What's your point and then be Committed and not feel no no and think that just happened over there. I need to jump into Over there Have an interest in other things, but you do your work on that area The trick what happens is that we And that's that's we're most desperate right now. It's like, you know, I do a whole research with identification of protest And it's because what's that we've moved the activism into what I call Where it happens is that we like a campaign Right thing right now and in three months later we get bored. It's kind of like this What you call it like these buffets where you pick a different campaign every three months And then you drop that thing without having solved it and you move on to the next thing As African people we can't deal with that or what's nothing gets fixed So you can have an interest in other things, but the distraction politics is not for us So, I mean, that's that's what I can give you on now. It's discipline. It comes down to discipline All right, do we want one from that side and then we'll come back to this side? Yeah All right, thank you very much for everything you shared with us today I'm going to try and keep my question. I've got faith in you brother Switcher size. Yeah, as short as possible. So I want to hone in on the point Toyin made about self-love Because I think it's a shame that I just read a lot about how black students make Jokes about like skin color and stuff like that But I think it's a shame that if you look at the situation In detail, you'll see that the same thing does happen on the African continent And in the same way it happens in the UK But also in a different way in the sense that I'm sure if there's anyone here who went to school or grew up in A country and maybe perhaps West Africa like Ghana or Nigeria, you would see that There are some little things such as Hair growth, you know, you go to school and then you're told you can't grow your hair past the certain level And I think that's almost a reflection of what Toyin was saying whether do we even love ourselves? It's almost as if in the education system. They're trying to mold you into being As as an African as possible And it's also reflected in the fact that there are some schools in Ghana whereby When you speak the native language, you're told don't use this language On on campus and I think that's a reflection of the lack of self-love even at home So the question I want to ask you is that do you think there's a direct link between the fact that there's no love at home? The fact that there's no love at home has had an effect on You know the black people who have left home and are you know in the diaspora or do you think brother? Yeah, and what do you think? Appreciate you man. I appreciate you so much. You tried And what what do you think come to dance? Hey, that's too Yeah, can I just push back on that slightly because I think that You know, I totally agree with everything that has been said about about love and about about self-hate But but there's also fear as well that actually I think that a lot of people, you know Are being true through this, you know systemic racist system that we have Actually do love themselves Actually, you know don't hate themselves But are fearful of organizing Of organizing just simply by by association with other black folk really And I think, you know, that's one of the things that we need to push back on. So yeah, we absolutely do need to push, you know You know promote black life, but I think that you know, You know, if you look at I know talk about workplaces earlier, you know, that's such an oppressive Environment for for many in fact most black people, you know what I mean? It's like the the hair styles you talk about in relation to school That also applies at work too This this is the system that we're dealing with so we you know, we have to dismantle it, you know brick by brick And and recognize the fear Within us as well in order to actually deal with that because if you don't recognize it then it's difficult to to deal with it Can I also jump in on that one? So I think It's really important what you're talking about love at home or the lack of it And in our research with young people and also our research with adults as well who've been affected by Colorism we've got things like parents saying to one one young woman You're black and ugly like your grandmother, you know things like that if your parents see you as a problem If your parents see you as ugly and instill in you the sense that you're ugly from when you're really young That will have an impact on everything you take that with you one that the same woman said Will I ever be 100% she was in her 50s? I think will I ever be 100% satisfied with my skin shade? I don't know and it took us so long to even see herself as anything other than This ugly person that her father said she was and then if you think about then who that means you can love We had participants saying, you know, I want someone who's got light skin And even in we got them to make emojis the students make emojis of what they look like what they think looks attractive And so many of them the attractive person was someone who could be mixed or has very light skin Really loose cause just it is the black the dolls test again in some ways. Um, and it's Just if you don't have an intervention where we can work with parents and help parents to understand What they what their role is and the damage that they can do to young people if they perpetuate colorism And if we don't have an intervention where you can work with very young people like primary school age I think to help them understand that they're beautiful and and that we shouldn't be judging people based upon skin shade It's going to be very hard to make us Um a powerful intervention because otherwise you then get into adulthood and you're like Well, I'll choose that partner because she happens to be mixed race. She's better than the ugly black women You know, these things then get perpetuated and and I think that's really problematic I think there's a workshop in there actually. Yeah, can I have a really good idea? Very quickly really quickly just to add on to that as well Is it's it's also recognizing that when we're talking about amesia A lot of our children are actually not taught by us They spend most of the times in school and if they're not in schools in my generation my babies I mean not my children but they a lot of the children around them were taught by cbb's They were taught by the tweenies. They were taught by the media So what happens is that they have this distorted idea which is actually produced by white supremacist systems, which You know, it tried to be this colorblind route They often have animals and stuff But if we're not visible then we never know we're beautiful And so, you know, I remember with my children as much as they've learned about their history I used to show them things like chico and returts and amazing animation I'd shown them things, you know, if you haven't seen um, what's it queen and slim, you know, you have to show Media film Culture songs, you know all these kind of different media where we win where we're beautiful where we're normal We don't even have to superpowers. We just need to love ourselves That's part of the solution with this particular issue. Sorry, brother That's part of the solution as well If we don't see that we always see ourselves in conflict always trying to escape from who we are and what we are Then that's what we, you know that fear that Leicester talked about is it becomes very real because we always fear that if we Show ourselves, you know and our true self and that's what love really is right Love is about exposing yourself naked to the world and being accepted and it puts you in a very vulnerable position So a lot of people are frightened to do that And so if we can't do that because we can't see it actually accepted anywhere else Then we get into this kind of like this really close space And then we become receptive to all the violence until the anger and to the self hatred We cultivate because deep down we do love ourselves Amen Right Oh, no, you don't have to stand up because you understand if I gear this mic, yeah Can I trust you? I stand up because I think it's important for everyone to connect with us. My name is amma I always introduce myself. I'd actually ask everybody who speaks after me to introduce yourself just your name So we connect with each other Okay, so Hi I'm going to make I'm going to make a couple of contributions And then I'll ask the question the contributions. I want to make is This week we are here on the backs of others who came before us It's important for us to remember that Our parents our families and i'm going to highlight two people because they're connected to the institution we're in This week on the 9th of april It was the anniversary of the birth of paul robeson paul robeson studied here In march, it was the anniversary of the birth of water rodney water rodney studied here If you don't know anything about anyone else study those two people they were activist scholars They were part of the solution which has got all of us here into this room So when we are talking about solutions, let us remember everybody who went before us Including our families who have sacrificed so some of us can sit in these rooms Some in our families who've never sat in rooms like this So my question to the panel is Outside of this room even within this campus. There are africans Africans who are working as security Africans who are working as cleaners Africans who are working in catering First of all my challenge to everybody in this room is wherever you move around in Talk to the ordinary Africans the working Africans because they are part of the solution and also they are the beneficiaries And my question to the panel is how do we Carry on the conversation outside of this room And my question to the organizers is how do we involve Those outside of the room and in particular outside of academia because one of the things I would love to see Nigel Is one of these days to have one of those ordinary Africans as I call them maybe not the best phrase sitting up there on the panel Thank you Okay, I'll take the as one of the organizer For you Mika and for you too, Nigel Up to my school that's My answer I mean, I think the answer is A little bit what you said at the beginning earlier on around community, right? Community is the key of everything. It doesn't happen on in those rooms. It happens everywhere And when we even when we were thinking about who to invite You know for the panel what kind of conversations we wanted to have I think we wanted to be specific about not including only Academics, but you would see that within the panel and like even for you to in this book earlier on this Most of your career it was actually a grassroots organizing, right? And so Absolutely important to have this conversation with each other This is what we're here for and this is also what we're trying to do with the center Center for African Studies here so as And yeah conversation happens everywhere. It's in community, right? I don't know Nigel if you have I would not put it could have put it better myself It's just we need participation. That's all because the communities are there. I feel like They are pockets and silos, but as we need to do a better job as leaders of those communities in knitting everyone together But for sure the school of pan-african thought is one and you are all welcome pan-african thought.com Thank you. And I think that if we are so sure that we want people in the room we have every Ability ourselves to invite them like we all know people like we don't exist In isolation. So thank you elder. I feel like also bring some Right. Well, right. So bring bring someone bring someone along with you as well next time like, you know People's working patterns, but definitely bring people along with you, you know All of us that are here aunties uncles brothers sisters bring them along All right, this is what we're going to do because of time Yeah, we're going to take two questions from that side then I'm going to take two questions from this side Yeah, and then they are questions Yeah, no preamble. No monologue just questions. Okay abdo Questions here otherwise cut the mic We're getting to that My name's the wanta Just quick question. Um, you've probably seen like there's been like a rise in um, you know that push back against that d i and like anti-work and all of that stuff I just wanted to know if it's affected you guys like in the organizations that you're working awesome And who's the second lady behind you abdo I'm so shy No, I don't have luster of millie Luster you mentioned reparations earlier and I was just wondering what you think that looks like and Who would be entitled to it? Thank you. Thank you very much Well, I mean it's not for me to say oh, you know the The campaigning that um, I think a lot people and reparations do is is the recognize that you know, not not everyone sees eye to eye You know within, uh, you know the uh, Parthican Movement, there's there's lots of different views about what reparations is But what's undeniable is uh, is the cost of it? Um, and and the benefits as well in terms of who's who's benefited and that's why I think the Bracknell report was so So important because it kind of quantified both sides now, obviously you can't put a price on life And you can't put a price, uh, you know on on on millions of lives But but at least you can actually um say this is this is the debt That is this is the minimum that is that is owed And then have a conversation about how that's going to be paid. So I think that's that's really important to uh to do Just on the on the point that the one takes made about the de eye um, I work in uh, Cambridge university moment and um, the Uh, you know, I oh my boss is a lord Simon Willie who worked for many many years Operation black vote And the work that he was involved in which you know, I kind of helped him from time to time In that was actually about getting uh, black political representatives in parliament And you know, I think it's you know, if Simon was here, he would say for himself It's it's a matter of regret that some of those that have actually, you know Got to go into parliament are the likes of, you know, Kenny Badenock Um, you know are the likes of, you know, uh, James James cleverly are the likes of, you know, um, you know Pita Patel's as well a Brahman and so on. Um, so You know, he's now moved to a place where uh, as in the educational institution It's about saying to a making the place much more, you know, diverse But at the same time, um, actually saying, you know, with your world class degree You know, feel, um, confident to actually go out and change the world for the better Because, you know, too many people go through Oxbridge And they just go into, uh, you know, the city and just just earn the pile of money And so the the the mission that that that he's doing and I'll get to the point of it in two seconds Is is to actually say this is a place where where you belong Because this is not some kind of, you know alien institution, you know This is that this is the you know institutions That um, you know, we're we're built on enslavement of Africans. This is, you know What what is o to you and you belong here and and you should feel confident to express yourself and Change go out and change go out and change the world Now the pushback that we sometimes get from, you know, the sort of liberal world Out there in places like, you know, Oxford and Cambridge Is is one which gives lip service To to to DEI if you want to call it that But there's pushback, you know, whenever there's anything meaningful that actually matters That's if it's something which is free and is unlikely to to change the system Then they're absolutely fine with that But, you know, anything more radical than there's there's a problem And I think it's important to um point that out Because, you know, it's so subtle that, you know, the pushback is not just about the You know, blaring anti woke agenda that you, you know, hear and read about in the Daily Mail It's also very subtle from people who pretend That they are actually our allies and and they're really not and it's about calling calling that out Which itself brings battles, but, you know, we've got to be up for those battles Amazing point Oh, are you looking you're looking at me with daggers All right, so I know you brother question Thank you very much everyone, um Love the contribution for everyone. Um, my name is Guillermo I I do have a little introduction Sorry to disappoint you. Um quickly though. Um, it's still on this basis of Solution, um, and I appreciate very much that Everyone here is contributing to the solution Well, I'm thinking along the lines of this imagination that um, we're we're um being total adult and I'm imagining that um, the forces that we are read against um Are very much centralized even though they come In disparate regions in different disparate forms. So I'm thinking along the lines that um With the history of pan-africanism, it seems like every time it changes Shape or form there is something that it reacts to Say for instance, the first pan-african conference was um in reaction to that scramble for Africa the initial one in this time we have Transhumanism as you say reparations on the what could be That coalescing thing that um gets pan-africanism to look Like it existed before and within that context is there space for some form of centralized um action Quote-unquote task force committee to you know secret societies to whatever not But that's that that's a tricky one to ask in a public space And it's recorded Yeah, okay Thank you everybody, my name is when you know Uh, I'm a Kenyan born a pretend woman and I'm proud of it. You know, but my daughter there So my quest might answer to you my sister Ex-parts by experience bring them along. We are the experts bring them to experience this I came to uk 30 years ago. She was five years. She was your age Now every time I asked she says she's an african But she cannot speak the language which I'm ashamed of But that's done. But what is claiming me most is 50 years over 50 years ago Marcus Garvey necroma Du Bois and so forth fought for this Where did we get lost where can we stop it? now I'm proud of you. You are still liking that card for them that one And the issue of language The I will explain how it happened being an immigrant woman with a career. I can't work for a bank here I had three of them. I had to walk. I had to look after them I could not leave one of them to go down. Yes, take the beam something in africa that never is a problem So we cannot be so harsh on our african parents who while who came to england without an all europe without an understanding of the culture here I I didn't know how to make hair because I had to go go to reality. She'll make your hair So many little challenges that held us. I have to take their his sisters to body school, whatever But that is not the point We are here. We have identified. There's a there's a break not a problem. There's a disengagement Let us continue About the identities right now. I'm trying to write something for the head council on dementia Do you know again? I can we get a black population Do you want to tell me all people don't give you dementia or if they do When they go or where our people to contribute to that to discuss the way you guys were discussing you I'm not finished I'm contributing to the conversation because all the questions that have been asked Okay, yeah Can I invite you in africa? We don't have time I never have this opportunity I never have this opportunity But all I can tell you our identity is at a threat Not just here when I go back to Kenya and then we tell you go to a field I can walk to his To his home we come from the same place the river between is still cracked We've got to close up here We've got to break to build the bridge the identity our identity is being stolen. Not just here when I go back to Kenya Everybody is asking to speak in English Everybody is aspiring In fact, they are still telling our kids back at home. Leave it on here Not to speak in our vernacular The history they are taught is about england the geography they are taught is about england knowing that how beautiful Kenya is it ends me But the thing is This is not us alone. We have to join hands with the continent. We can't disassociate ourselves as they are They are calling people we belong to one mother and that's mother africa and we have to keep fighting I didn't have a question We have to go Big up big up mom z Hey panel, please that's going to be a hard one Okay, so the language thing I get um, I mean my europe is awful because my father's most like most who come over What our parents suffered from was what I call survival fatigue and this is the whole idea is that you you know There's something about not having rest not having space. You're working two jobs. He was a bt engineer He was also going to college. He was also doing the homework with us survival fatigue means that you Deprioritize the learning of a mother tongue and then of course the colonial construct the education system has been set by the british by the french means that there's a Depreciation of our languages in the motherland because they don't have they've not seen to have a commercial value Because of course if you speak english, then you can actually leave or you can get jobs as interpreters let alone apolarism Which happens if you're in west africa I know in the caribbean certainly if you go to banks if you go to any government building You'll see where colorism takes place and that is accompanied by linguistic competence. So that's a complex issue Wrapping up under the reparations issues another one as well And this is and it's a very good one as well. Lester was right There are many ideas schools of thought when it comes to reparations. I believe in self reparations before looking for reparations That's my personal position Which means that we heal ourselves first before we're ready to go to anyone else and say justice I don't believe the comp. I think we mix up reparations for compensation, but also lester's Been very humble, but one of the things that lester did before, you know, you might not know He was also the editor before the voice of the new nation And and and verin lies the solution when I was like a road man as you call not I mean not in the worst sense, but I was a bit of a ragamuffin at times. I get it I look I had a tempa. I had a baseball bat in the car. I get it, right? It's a journey, right It's a journey you learn you grow, right So what happened was that lester had confidence in me had faith in me and what happened I was doing a lot of activists work. I was roughing up institutions. I was roughing up the British government I was roughing up media institutions and I had a job working as a weekly columnist for the new nation So it's a little ragamuffin me writing a national column for the whole country for our people in the whole country I'm not going to go into the politics of why it's boldly that such a like that But what happened with we're having an independent organization run by someone who's a pan-African Understood that vision and still buy you and he had pressure, right Nowadays we're used to the idea of pick up a mobile phone and foot and film in the police Back in the day, I would write my columns and say do it and everyone would be fighting against us They'd be coming into the office and talking to him politicians and saying what's that toy and doing on that newspaper Why has he got this weekly column on the side is causing trouble now. It's normal practice So the solution from a reparations point of view is that we need to have independent organization And this comes to the strategic issues asking about the central Mission is a misnomer Yeah, there's a there's a there's a fallacy in actually going against and then like a well resourced enemy Kind of like you know, I mean like when you just not ready for it I know this is what I'm always careful about the words I use Having a central mission which is shared through imagination through story through narratives through dreams through spiritual beliefs and practices Is important because it means we don't need to be in the same space to unify We're all connected without being in the same space. We'll all have different interpretation But pan african was first and sentiment about loving a self and freedom being liberation That's what it was about every decade every century had a slightly different twist whether it's after the Haitian revolution Whether it's after the berlin conference. There might be a different twist different focus But it's essentially about loving self building community. Okay, and liberation That's always got to be the mission regardless of what it's called Most people are pan africanist African diaspora, they might not even use that word It doesn't matter if they don't use that word as long as they see another african person and they say, you know what? There's love there There's something in there and then there's other people who support pan africanist who say, you know what? I hear what you're going. I see the pain. We saw that with the black lives matter movement in fact The strength of black lives matter movement even though it had this very american focus on it was that it bought together a multi-ethnic group of people young people in a way I've not seen for decades and that was amazing So it's not really looking to find that one single doctrine This has always been the mistake Trying to find that one mission that everybody's going to sign up to they're not going to sign up for that What people want is liberty and they want love and when they have that Then everyone's going to organize and work in a different way And this is why sister ammo is so right about that social connections If we don't even know each other's names Then we cannot meet each other. We can't see each other and so we we we we dissipate into the wind And then what happens until Nigel, you know, oh my god Mikau, Mikau, sorry. Yes, it's old age It's a very good point until until they reorganize and reconvene something so we can come together again What happens is that we start feeling isolated again and the trick of white supremacy has always been to make us think that we're alone That it's always going to be here that it will never disappear and historians. I'm not historians history tells us very clearly Every single empire in the history of humanity When its decline comes and it will fall its decline comes. It's rapid. We don't see it coming So unless we have a vision Unless Unless we have a vision for what we will do in that space The danger is what I call the guy forks paradox is that we will recreate the same oppressive system That's doing it. So we have to have a vision. That's why I'll tell you about this so important You know, even Ursula Gwyn wrote for anarchists. You have that's why I love sci-fi You have to have that vision and and I'll leave it there. All right. Thank you so We We are moving to oh Do you have people? all right Okay, so your people and then my people to finish. Yeah Good evening. My name's Hayden. I have a relatively short question, but I think that ours is going to be way too long So, um, first of all, I'd like to address what amma said about the importance of I think amma's term was quote unquote ordinary African this was that right Yeah, because you know to me personally it wouldn't occur to me to not recognize those people in any space that I'm in And I teach at UCL and not least because at UCL on more than one occasion I've been mistaken for one of those quote unquote ordinary people by other people who teach alongside me So I think I didn't need that lesson to see the to see those people in the room Anyway, because I come from those people. So why wouldn't I recognize those people? However, I feel that in this country class has a very pernicious effect Um on a particular types of black people who feel that once they're co-opted Into and I think we all know who we're talking about and I think one of them in particular was mentioned this evening but when I There's this chasm as I see it that you know The academia creates between me and those other black people who are in that space That above and beyond, you know a fist bump and recognizing somebody and knowing their name and talking to them Like I would if they were a family member. How do we get them into these spaces? Because they'll also tell you that they're working ridiculous You know timetables. They're not working the kind of hours that I work or in the way in which I work Teaching at the moment. So yeah off schedule. So how do we get them in the spaces? What do we do to get them into these spaces and onto that panel? What what's the who have you got someone else? No, okay, great. How do we get them in twitter size response from our panel? It's such a I think it's thank you. I think it is of course It's a valid question But the reason I feel like the first time I was you know, the iteration of the question to me It sounded like what happens when white people are on a panel discussing racism and they go Oh, so how do we just get the blacks inside? How do we get them in here and it's like but no because When we we are already around people that every day Africans or ordinary and we're already around them So it's asking people what would make it easier for you to be in these environments Like we go to people as opposed to expecting them to come to us, you know And we we can have conversations if we are if we can say hi We can also you know find out about them and okay, you can't make this But what would work for you and we work around we work around everyone But I have an idea in my head about the structures that we already kind of people will for instance not They'll prioritize church maybe right a lot of people might prioritize church might prioritize certain other things And so it's do we do something is it an event that you do at a church? Will the church allow you to do these events like we go back into Community because we do approach we can it's possible for us to approach things from a rather classist perspective. Yeah, okay Can I sorry really quickly? I was going to make a similar point why these bases But really quickly thinking about also one of the other divides is around not recognizing people of particular classes as black anyway So, I mean it was um quasi-quarting who was described as one of the coconut cabinet But there's always been this thing about middle-class black people being seen as not black enough as coconuts as bounties Whatever whitewash all the students I was interviewing there's a lot of talk about this whitewash black people And I think that's also problematic because you've got to recognize that there's many different ways of being black And that is something that there's often a struggle with but it's it's quasi-quarting a great example No I must say my point Nigel when he was on gb news and he called me jackass of the week So if there are coconuts abound, then I'm sorry. He might be one of them and I know it's recorded. All right Uh I'm sorry. This is going to be the last round now. Yeah, because um, we've got to go. I'm sure It's a shame we're not in the village But uh, yeah very quickly Thank you. Um Thank you to the panelists my name is onola and um I wanted to ask the question to kind of revisit the sort of topic. Um beyond the single narrative So I I've I've recently just completed an ma and that ma was in global black studies and I submitted my dissertation on um the power of black Sorry, the value of black mainstream social justice protest and I and I specifically Put it in that way because I recognize that um Our protests have actually been co-opted so My question to the panel bearing in mind that it's um beyond a single narrative is to just try and understand what protests should look like within our community and just to try and encourage um everyone in attendance and those who get to access this outside of this space to rethink and and just sort of reimagine What protests could look like I think that's very very critical because the way that activism is now unfortunately Has actually been again just used by the culture industry to become something completely different to what it has stood for in times past so um That's my that's my question and and I'd be grateful if you could all answer it in order to reach those who aren't in this space as well We've got a question. How do we access that uh paper? Is it published? Okay That's a question here is no question here, but there's some gentleman in the hat. Did you want to hold up? I'm moderating this hold on. I know what I'm doing Listen, I have some manners in here No, no, no, no, no No, I know I'm doing so Uncle had his hand up from the beginning of the q&a. Yeah, so let's get that straight and then I'm going to go to sis And then you and then I'm really sorry No, no, no, no, no. I'm really sorry other people took the time and we do have to leave on time. Yeah, so uncle Thank you very much. My name is Joseph Oladushu um Yeah I just want to know we there are some uh call mark That in pan-africanism we have missed in 1963 Kwame Nkrumah made a very strong case in Cairo for pan-africanism The gradual is one We're just here today talking about uh language in first tax 77 I was one of those who collated the colloquium papers where uh A continental language was uh recommended Is buried is dead and buried um I was here last about 15 20 years ago doing the same exercise as the director of arid african research and information bureau that we try and Maybe kind of I'm just thinking of the high two are to use So that we can begin to achieve some concrete result because Neocolonialism is Is a very strong institution and it has 54 neocolonial plantations on our continent. I don't call them countries. I call them neocolonial plantations. How do we do something to dismantle these plantations and create a continent for ourselves and Okay, so we have a protest plantations And it's a positive action, a prolific action and your question was Was it your turn? All right, we'll just do two and then the last two Just a question of protest. Okay, if I can play with the order I'll go with the last one first. Um Thank you uncle That's that's important what you just said and building on the legacy of where we come from I'm an incriminous as well and I support much of the work that's done me But I love sankara for the africanese of that generation. It's my favorite um One of the one of the problems however with the people that are my role models my spiritual role models of sankara Is the members of this world? What happened was that even though they sold their their vision to a select amount of pan africanist They didn't land with everyone The first role of a pan africanist is an educational role. It's actually sharing it. I talked about that imaginary It's sharing that mission first before you start engaging in action Oh, so what happens like festack was an amazing festival. Okay, the whole idea was right. I'm a fellow man, right? So this whole idea about different nations coming together the whole idea about the language So it's a perfect language. Why didn't it work? What are practicalities of having african nations actually using one nigga franca? Do you use uh, key swihili? Do you know, do you use what language you use starts bringing in problems? So no, so no, so all this becomes a tricky situation and so people rely on the colonel So it comes down to practicality So the first thing I'll say is that why what you're saying is right and we must never lose sight and go backwards from that We must also at the same time simultaneously remember that we are now talking to the next generation That have not it's not enough just that they've survived which is actually a miracle in itself You have a whole world that's trying to exterminate you but they also have new skills They are not starting from the same position that we are starting from The young people I deal with are far more conscientious far more politically weird than I was when I was their age I was bumming around you at making music nowadays people are more aware of that. So it's just having that I'm not saying and I'm going to lead to the solution you're talking about I'm not saying that we don't we disrespect that but I'm saying that if you know if sankara, for example Had sold that that message which was an amazing message to everyone Each of those cases are our leaders our revolution leaders, whether it's been in the carabin You know, you know, it's they've always been undone by other Africans. Okay. It's something that we can't avoid So we have to sell it first um There's a question about how do we do this and I've written down You know, how do we do these discussions and stuff and reach so, you know ordinary people and and sister amma did say That wasn't the right choice of words and and and you're right Walter Rodney is the same example. You know, you gave the example of water Rodney and Walter Rodney talked about groundings. He talked about grounds with our brothers, but it's the same thing groundings with our community It's changing the format and that would ultimately Change the way that, you know, we have these these these these discussions for example Because we're inside a university space the restraints of time Is pushing us to actually stop just when we're really in any African circle We are now ready to bring out the jollof and get into it Right, but we're in a university space. So what we've got to do now is just pack up and go Okay, that's not a natural vibe for us. You've been in shade of me No, no, I'm not Because there's no because because there's a mixture. There's a there's a need to have both And so there's a need to lose the hierarchy which comes from having this and being circles and having food And actually reasoning on a level which is actually more social as well as intellectual That's the way we do it, right? So that's that's another thing Um Thank you. Congratulations on on the dissertation. Thank you. There you are. That's that's that's you know on that form Protest that's probably the most important issue My research was similar to yours. It was called gentrification of protest And it was because I'm seeing protest being split up co-opted and now the elites have actually done an amazing job In wrenching an activist into a simple form. You wear a t-shirt. You go on twitter You turn up at a march. You're an activist That's complete nonsense. But that's what we are now told activismism You might remember the college and a Pepsi ad for it Which you came up with a coke tin or a Pepsi tin and like you know caught to the whole black lives matter movement So that's gone, right? That is part of the activist tradition That's part of the way of pushing back But for a movement to really be engaged in protest to be really be engaged in change I've written down quickly three things. There must be a level of disruption If it doesn't disrupt, it's just maintaining a status quo, right? So it's not enough just to challenge There must be something that disrupts it The second one is that there must be some level of transformation So people who come into contact with what you're doing must feel somehow transformed The systems must be transformed the laws something must change So disruption then transformation and then the third thing I'll put down that is healing There must be some way and I say healing in I could say reparation There must be some way that what happens is that the problem doesn't occur The people are harmed have eradicated that violence and to do that we have to recognize that protest comes in so many different forms So when I was doing my research, I was studying governmental forms of activism, which we don't assume exists But it does and you know how it works is that people inside for example the local authority someone who Rubber stamps who gets the house in stock, you know, who's on the waiting list and stuff like that They don't want to be called an activist. They'll lose their job But sometimes they might see a case study. They might see someone who's got like children They've been suffering. They've had a bad life. They just push their name on the list That's activism They might they don't need to scream and shout to the whole world that what I did was activism They just do it and that's the problem The way that we've conceptualized activism all the way we've been taught to conceptualize it is Have you got a t-shirt? Have you got a couple of selfies? Did you go on the protest march? Have you done all that stuff? And if you can't show that you're an activist Therefore you are not an activist one. No if you're truly sincere about this process then actually it's about the change It's about the disruption. It's about the healing. It's the eradication of violence and that for me again becomes an educational process I'll leave it there All right, you were nice to me in the beginning so I'm gonna give you the I'm gonna give you the last word. I'll try and be as quick as I can But my name is Hallie Miata Fendisher. Lovely to see everybody. Thank you so much to the panel And also part of organizing an African diaspora festival on 6th July So I'd love all of you in here to come and there will be gel off There will be discussion about different languages, etc. So just to plug that as well and I think I'm hoping it's a quick question, but We've talked about the dynamic nature of defining pan-Africanism Identity identity project responding to identity that's almost projected on to you from how you're perceived by others So in light of that dynamic nature of even who is included when we talk about being an African How do we then what other things that we can do in the enablers to allow us to arrive at a vision that we said Is important for us to work towards That's Thank you Thank you. Who wants to take that to close? Kalechi I I agree with you everything can change right so when you said about the dynamic nature of even Africanism or African-ness that can also start shifting around as well and um you mentioned there as well uncle about um Neocolonialism and how strong of a hold is having and these new neocolonial entities Um, is it dipole fallowing was talking about um africa? It's not our country um And um, he talks about Nigeria being an amalgamation of different ethnic groups of people for the sake of commercialization Like so even when we sometimes romanticize the continent we're forgetting the commercial aspect of it So then when we're thinking about how we identify what are we identifying with when in our most recent histories All we know is to be severely and dramatically like extracted from so it comes back to Really self-sovereignty the concept of all of this is self-sovereignty. We have to come back to ourselves. We're not enough to I T like we're trying to navigate Encourages by things but not to feel so we have to really be Ourselves and that means we see other people who asked about and it was asked earlier about um protests. What is that? Using revolutionary land. They're not revolutionary people and You're seeing it suddenly will be bad and you're like, um I also noticed something that I mentioned before that um, and I'll be quick Nigel because I can um So I've noticed something where he comes out and they experience because of And when he talks about it was because of the horrendous experience fruit of the housing And it's suddenly you're into this thing of now Activists and now here's the deal and so I just the way that some of us included Trying to the institute trying to defend by off things and so um, to him was out since quote about And racism a real function of racism is destroyed at the end of that To be one more thing I will always be one more thing and I found myself getting up in the one more thing like I'm coming off to it I don't know. Let me come back because I've got to say one more bit Go and do the work You know, it's so it got to the point where for me I was like the protest isn't necessarily an outward one. It's a subversive one Like to him was saying like let me go and do my work But that first requires me to do the work with me So when Khalil Gibran was talking about if you're looking to decolonize this tyrant or to dethrone this tyrant You have to address the tyrant within yourself like dethrone the tyrant within yourself So how can we have any movement? That's solid and robust and can stand a test of time if the tyrannical Entities that have been entrenched within our psyche. We haven't actually addressed that So it's not so much about an external identity as opposed to an internal one Yeah Okay, ladies and gentlemen our wonderful panelists, please show your So One more point Sorry, what where can people found you find you and just cannot where you people are ready to leave Anyway, where can people find you and You're on x i believe your work lester Yeah, me. Uh, yes, just lester j hollaway on on x And uh, where can people find you find out more about legally? That's harder. I mean, I I'm on social media, but I hate it. So I don't respond very well to it. Um, just drop me an email um or Contact, you know, and and I'll I'll come if if you're serious. I will come even not serious But if it's jollof, I'll be there Dr. Asia so my details are on the king's website isha phoenix and also i'm on twitter at or x sorry Yeah, king's college london. Um, it's at firebird n4 And kelechi Kind of on collection of cough, but I'm not there anymore. Um, um, I'm on my website kelechi or car for dot com There's a a members area called kaleidoscope now where I can share all my conspiracy theories. Thank you And where do we get your book? Well, uh, let's um all outlets. Yeah, it's there. Thank you All right, and I also want to thank, uh, mckell, uh, will do. He's been a fantastic moderate. Um, Wonderful questions We were up all night thinking of them. No, I'm just joking. I'm just joking and uh guys really we Appreciate you. This is just the start as she said in the beginning. We have two more Those events will be informed by the questions and the feedback and everything that we've heard today So we do hope to see you again bring a friend and uh, let me get details of that festival so we can So we can all share it Share with me and I'll share with you I see you didn't say all that Oh, well, then that's a different story, but uh, love and light everyone get home safe and we'll see you here next time. Good night