 Hello, good morning. Myself, Ravindra Vaidya, I am from IMCC, Maharashtra Jugaan Societies instead of Management and Career courses, which belongs to the Pune University. Normally, in the Pune University, we don't have any credits sort of system because everything is related with the University of Pune. So, the first course in programming at various postgraduate level, like we have MCA course at four different faculties, like commerce, management, science and engineering. And in each course, in each every course, we have the C programming and the first semester only. For the engineering, we have a common course for all the branches, that is fundamentals of programming languages. When you say fundamentals of programming languages, because programming languages is considered an advanced topic in computer science. No, basically this course sometimes is a C programming. The name is only fundamentals of computer language. It's called what? Fundamentals of programming language. You might want to take a feedback and I believe all of my colleagues will agree that when you call something fundamental of programming language, the contents are significantly different than in a programming course. So, you might want to go back and tell the university to change the nomenclature. First chapter is something related with flowchart and algorithms and other things. Besides these two courses, MCA and engineering, we have other computer courses, which also have the C programming. Like we have the BSc computer science, MSc computer science. There is MCM is one of the course, BCA is also one of the course and Bachelor of E-Commerce. Sorry, Bachelor of E-Commerce. So, in all those courses, the first semester has the C programming as a course. Now, I understand why in the last workshop, there was a special request from Ferguson College, which is essentially a science college. It's a well-known science college in Pune and teachers there who used to teach programming said, can we participate in this workshop? So, we permitted them as an exceptional case, but looks like that will have to be made a standard case now for this course. So, what is the nature of how many lectures are there? For MCA, we have the total 50 clock hours are expected. And in that three hours a week for theory and one and half hour for the practical. So, three zero, one and half. This is per week. Right, per week. And the theory course has examination pattern 7030 that is 70 for the university examination and 30 internal examination. Usually, these internal marks are given on what basis? It is depending on the institution to institution. Normally, many of the institution only takes one examination and they will give. And in our institute, we conduct two 40 marks internal test and plus 10 marks are given for attendance and other performance. So, 90 divided by 3, it is converted to 30. So, attendance is considered important, is it? Right. And practical? For practical, it is internal practical, no external examiner is there, which is of 50 marks. University has given, in a syllabus they are given the list of the practicals. But from the previous year, what we did is that we convert that practical in the form of project. Actually, it is not a project, but we converted it into form of some projects, like design some basic operations for the calculator, that sort of projects we are giving to the student in a group of four. This is for MCA basically. And in other courses, slightly different structure is there. Like in engineering, they have, they don't have the theory for this fundamental of programming languages. So, this is the first year course. They only have the practical evaluation, 50 marks, only practical. And theory, that is one hour per week is the theory. So, it is like a one zero three course. One zero two course. And interestingly, in MCA, under the engineering faculty has four hours of week theory and four hours of week in practical. How can MCA be different in two different places? Normally, what happened, those colleges who are engineering colleges and already taken the MCA course from the AICT, now they all are shifted under the engineering faculty. All the four engineering, all the four MCA courses has different syllabus. No, let me put it this way. AICT had defined an MCA curriculum in which all the subjects and the patterns, etc., have been defined. Isn't that adopted necessarily by all MCA programs in the country? Not necessarily, because MCA under the commerce and MCA under the science doesn't require any affiliation from AICT. That is basically, University of Pune started that course to avoid AICT. That is the basic. Avoid AICT. So much for this. There is a very much quarrel between Pune University and AICT on MCA. No, quarrels are okay. I am considering students' view point and their prospects in life later on. Because MCA under science faculty, they only advertise that than MCA only. No, no, no. You are saying it from the point of view of administrators of education. Right. I am looking at it from the point of view of industry, industry expectations, and these students' aspirations to join industry. So with respect to that, don't you feel that the MCA programs in non-engineering institutions are doing a slightly diluted kind of activity? If you see the syllabus of MCA under the science faculty, it is more rigorous than management and engineering. Anyway, let's not get into that. We'll stick to our own thing, paradigm. So for, okay, so in a nutshell, if we conduct the workshop as planned, targeting first entry-level programming course, essentially given in C programming, that should still be served the purpose of most of the speeches. Fair enough. Thank you. If you have any soft copies or hard copies of question papers or sample question papers or syllabus, at the end we'll like to collect those. Thank you. Myself Ashish Shravastav, I'm from Tripli T. Lahabat. Basically I'm teaching computer programming languages in MS CLI's department. So I'll just give a brief introduction of my institute and what are the different courses and what are the syllabus of the... Our institute got established in 1999 and got in deemed university status in 2000. We are under the task force of IT excellence in the IT field. We are having basically two branches. That is, in BTEC we are having IT and electronics and communication engineering. And we are having MBA IT and MS CLI's. That is a master of science in cyber law and information security. These are the important courses. We are also having some MTech programs also, wireless communication, bioinformatics and all that. In BTEC, IT and EC, we are having introduction to computer programming with lab. In the first semester of BTEC, IT and EC. And in BTEC third semester, we are having a programming practice lab, which is of four credit. The first semester courses, how many credits? Total, for the introduction of computer programming, we are having three labs and three practical, three lectures hours and three practical hours we are having. So it's a 303 course in the first semester. Yeah, in first semester. And it is essentially C programming? No, it is a consist of C programming and some fundamentals of TCP, IPs and operating systems are also there and C++ is also there. And syllabus of that. We are having two different syllabus. So you start with C programming as introduction to programming. Yeah. But follow it up with issues such as TCP, IP, some operating system introduction. I'll just give the detail of the things. That is, in the first week we have algorithms, computation, flow chart and pseudocodes, history of computer developments, that is number theory, binary, octal, hexadecimal, these things are there. Then loops, while do and these loops are there, maths, libraries are there, functions are there. Then in second, we are having the fundamental of computer networking, that is TCP, IP, topologies. Now this portion, have you prescribed about approximate time of the semester that is to be spent on the portion? Yeah, there is 30 lecture hours are there in one semester. 30? Yeah. You have only 10 weeks. No 30, that is for I think for three lectures per week. Correct. So you will have about 14 to 15 weeks. Yeah, 40 to 50. So you should have about 40 to 45 hours. Yeah. So out of that, how much do you spend approximately on C programming? Approximately. I think actually, this part in the BTEC that is taken by some other person, not given the detail, but I think it will be around 10 or 15 something like that. Okay. And similarly, we are having the TCP, IP, fundamental of networking and then operators overloading macros, pointers, virtual function, that in the C++ part. Means C, TCP, IP, that is networking fundamentals and object oriented programming concept, that is particularly the C programming. Okay. These three are the main section in the first year of introduction to computer programming in BTEC first semester. Okay. What is the exam pattern? Exam pattern, we are having, the credit system is there. And we are having, there is one credit means we are having 50 marks for one credit. So three credit hours means 150 marks. So 150 for theory, 150 for practical. What is important is what percentage of the total first semester load does this constitute? So 303. Yeah. How many courses typically a student will do in one semester, about five or six? Yeah. Six courses are there. And most of them are 303 kind of courses? Yes. Some are less also. So if I say that this course will constitute a load factor of roughly one-fifth to one-sixth, will that be all right? Yeah. I will just give you the details. This is the typical at most places, isn't it? Just a minute sir. Okay. And you have an exam, theory paper? Yes sir. In the first semester, we are having around seven total subjects are there in the BTEC first semester. No, that's okay. You can go over to the exam pattern if you have. Okay. Credit hours, that is, if it is two credit hours, then there is a mid-sem exam of 20 marks. If it is three credit hours, we are having a mid-sem exam of 30 marks, quizzes of 10 marks for two credit hours. Assignment and tutorial marks is 10 marks for two credit hours. Internal assessment, three marks for two credit hours. What do you mean by three marks? Three marks that is for internal assessment. No. The quizzes, assignments, etc. will also be internal assessment also. Yeah. All assignment is internal, I believe. Yeah. No external exam. No, external exam is there. After this, we are having N-sem marks that is 50. Attendance is having seven marks and N-sem exam is having 50 marks. N-sem 50 marks. 50 marks. I find this penchant for attendance being introduced at many places. Yeah. At IIT Bombay, we have an attendance compulsory, but for those teachers who take attendance, it's a go-no-go kind of situation. So, if you don't have attendance, you simply fail. Yeah. It is not seven marks or something. Because if it is seven marks, technically, if I am a smart elect, I will not attend a single class and still get a first class. No, no, there is a limited boundary also. Within that, they have to attend the class at least. If they will not come, then they will not come. So, then what is the point of seven marks? Seven marks, it gives some more advantage at who is coming regularly to the class for more hours than he can get some more benefit. It will be differentiated between the person who is not coming to the class. I was just speaking on the lighter side, but I still not understood the significance of three marks, except that they will all add up to hundred if you have seven marks for attendance. But on what basis are these three marks given? This internal assessment means sometimes they used to ask some questions in the class or some assignment they had given. It's total only. In the class, how they conduct, if they are given some project work or they are doing that or not, it is a... All of what you say is covered under various assignments. In that only, it comes. Okay, anyway. There is a three... Some Dala marks for teacher. Somebody who impresses a teacher will get three marks. Who is not noticed will get zero marks. And who will notice that the intermediate level will get two marks. Yeah, it may be like that. Sir, this credit hour that I told about two, for three credit hours, the mid-sam exam is 30. No, that's okay. That's a variation. Sir, there is one more thing. See, what is important is not so much as the division of marks in this, but the fact that you have so many assessments. So, these are the assessment stages or assessment levels which are there. Marks could vary. I believe roughly all institutions will have something of this sort, right? Assignments and things. Whether there is a project or not is a moot question. Do your students do a group project? Yeah, there is a project. Sir, I'm just telling you one thing more. That is, in BTEC, we are having these subjects. And in MS-CLS, we are also having one subject same, but having syllabus somewhat different. Because MS-CLS, the student used to come from BTEC branch also, from law background also, for other branches also, other graduation levels. So, we are having syllabus like this. The name of the subject is Introduction to Computer Technology and Programming in the first semester itself, which I used to take. And in this, we used to give first introduction to computer technologies. MS-C-L-I-S, sir. It is MS-C. So, only difference is probably you will follow some chapters of Professor Raja Raman's book to give introduction to technology, followed by the programming. Programming, sir, that is also not in the deep. It gives an introduction to all the current programming technologies, like C-Programming, C++, Java, JavaScript, Perl, MATLAB. Not in the detail, but we used to give introduction so that they can hand-ons on that. I want to go back and change MATLAB to sila. Yeah, sure. That is that. Okay. So, this is the thing, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Very good morning to all. Myself, Devan Kumar Mahavar, lecturer in Jaipur Engineering College Cookers. Today, I am here at... Sorry, I forgot your college. Jaipur Engineering College Cookers. Jaipur. Today, I am here as a representative from JEC to talk about the syllabus of computer programming language, followed by JEC and other Engineering College of Rastan, affiliated from Rastan Technical City, Kota. As you all know, Jaipur is the city of the Rastan. And in Jaipur itself, there are around 40 private engineering colleges. How many? 40 private engineering colleges. 40? 40. And JEC is one of them. As per the history of JEC's concern, Jaipur Engineering College was established in the year of 2000 with four branches of engineering, computer, IT, electrical and electronics. Then in 2002, it started... One more branch mechanical. Then in 2004, it started MBA program. And then recently in 2009, it started one more institute, Jaipur Institute of Engineering Technology in the same campus. Now both the colleges are running in the same campus and JEC has completed its 10 years successfully in the field of engineering. Now it is well known as Jaipur Group of Colleges in Rastan. Now, I want to share the syllabus of computer programming language. The whole university syllabus is divided into five units. The first unit covers the introduction of stored program architecture of computers, evolution of processors, storage devices, primary memory, secondary memory, storage, principle of... Working principle of primary storage devices, RAM, ROM, P-ROM, EP-ROM, EEP-ROM, random, direct and sequential access method. It also covers the language translator, high level language, assembly, low level programming language, working of assembler, interpreter and compiler. In the same module? Yes. And it also represents the flow... It also includes the flowchart institute card to represent the algorithm. The second unit covers number systems, once complement, two's complement, addition and subtraction of integers, floating point numbers, and gray code. It also covers the binary codes, gray codes, BCD, 8-4-2-1 codes, XS3, XS3 gray codes. The third unit covers structure of C program, concept of pre-processor, macrosubstitutions, intermediate code, object code and executable code compilation process. And it also covers basic data types, importance of braces, scope of variable, storage classes, static, auto, extant, register, constant expression in C, type casting, control statements and printf, scanf, reading a single character. The fourth unit covers array, pointers, pointer to represent array, dynamic memory allocation using malloc and kello functions. And array of structure and pointers. It also covers the file handling, opening a file in different modes and closing the file. The fifth last unit covers function in C, passing parameter, call by value and call by reference. And function using written data type, passing array structure, array of structure, pointer to structure as a parameter in a function. And passing character and string and void pointer and generic pointer. This is also included in the fifth unit. Now I come on to the evolution pattern. In the subject, computer programming and IIT, we schedule three lectures per week as per the IIT directions. And the total 100 marks are reserved for the subject, 20 marks for midterms and 80 marks for the n-terms. The maximum time for the n-term exam is three hours and maximum time for midterm exam is one hour. In each semester, we conduct two midterms each of 20 marks. At the end of session, we provide average of them. In computer programming lab, we schedule the two hours per week lab and 75 marks are reserved for this lab, 45 marks for session and 30 marks for practical. For the better evolution of the computer skills of students, suppose if we are having around 64 students in a class, then we divide the whole class into four batches. Suppose D1, D2, D3 and D4. And each batch consisting of around 16 students because we are having at most 18 computers in each lab so that everybody can perform their task individually on the separate PC. Besides that, we also follow the lab evaluation format two evaluation of the computer skills of the student. In this lab evaluation format, we consist three fields. First four attendance, second four performance and third one for Baeva. And each lab consists of 10 marks. Three marks are reserved for the attendance, three marks for performance and four marks for Baeva. At the end of the session, we finalize the marks of the session exam on the behalf of this lab evaluation format. In actual practice, you conduct Baeva for all the students every lab, is it? So suppose I am in lab one, say batch one. No, I am in batch two. Now batch one has finished yesterday. So I will ask all the questions that were asked during the Baeva to various 16 students. And will I not get an advantage when I go next in the second batch? Actually, at the starting of the session, suppose in this week, we want to conduct four labs for the four batches. So at the starting of the session, at the starting of the week, we decide the whole pattern to ask the question in Baeva. So it is sort of a unified bunch kind of thing. And one question which I forgot to ask others, typically because of this division which is, I believe, is a common pattern defined by Rajasthan Technical University, right? The syllabus is defined by Rajasthan Technical University. The syllabus is defined by Rajasthan Technical University. The paper is also set, the ENSEM paper is also set by Rajasthan Technical University. MIRSEM is under the individual college or that is also set by Rajasthan. No, MIRSEM is individual set by Rajasthan Technical University. Now in this paper, first of all is the pattern, a set of questions are given, all of which have to be solved or people have a choice? People have a choice. Actually, this is the sample question paper of the ENSEM exam. Okay, good. In which we are having five questions and each question is divided two sections and each question consists of 16 marks. 16 marks. So total 18 marks. So all questions are compulsory then? All questions are compulsory but students are instructed to attempt either one of them. A or B, because each question is divided in two parts, A or B sections. So effectively they answer five out of ten questions then? Yes. But as per the new pattern of the ITU examiner have to set first question from the first unit, second question from second unit, third question from third unit and so on. So these five units, so what is guaranteed is that there will be a question from each unit but there could be two questions out of which anyone can be solved. So if you are talking about, let's say, data types and control systems, then you might ask one question on some implementation of a if-then-as ladder and another question on some iteration, that is possible. It will be nice to have that question paper. Since how many colleges are there in the Rajasthan Technical University approximately? Around 150. 150. And out of them 40 alone are in Jaipur. It's a large number. So we are targeting for about 35 teachers plus or minus five in every center but suppose your number increases up to 40, you will be able to take care of that. You have the necessary facilities and all. Actually the same syllabus was in last, in the NIT Jaipur also because in the year of 2001, when NIT was REC, it was affiliated from Rajasthan University. But in 2002, it became a deemed university. So now it is running on their own syllabus. There's nobody from NIT Rajasthan. Actually I completed my B from NIT Rajasthan. So you are familiar with what happens in NIT? Fine. So this is roughly the overall pattern. And this course is compulsory for all branches of engineering. So if there are 150 colleges, average intake in every college will be how much? About 300? 1600 students in IIT branch. No, not your college. I am talking about any college. Total number of students admitted to the college in all branches would be about 300. So you are talking about 45,000 students. And in your college, how many teachers teach this course? 15 teachers in IIT department and 32 teachers in a computer department. No, this course is taught by how many people? This particular course? Five people. Five people. This is what I suspected that if you have a large number of 300 students have to be taught, very rarely all 300 students will be taught by a single teacher. So either you have a special arrangement like a large seminar hall and a large number of teaching assistants. Or you will have separate teachers teaching. So the number of teachers teaching computer programming per se could be fairly large. As somebody said yesterday that teachers from different disciplines also teach programming course. I think it is your place. So that is also possible. Okay, fine. Okay, thank you. Good morning, sir. Myself, Atul Chaudhary from R.C. Padel Institute of Technology, Sherpur, which is affiliated to North Maharashtra University in Jalgaon. As per university, we are starting the computer programming syllabus from the first year, second semester, that is introduction to computing, which basically covers the fundamentals of computers, the introduction part of the hardware, devices, operating systems, translators, and then a brief introduction to the C programming. Because the syllabus is common for all the branches. Then some part of the operating system, translators, and then the brief introduction of C programming, which covers like the data types, expressions, loops, functions, array, and pointers. A brief introduction because the syllabus is common for all the branches. And for this first year course, three hours theory per week and two hours practical, which has a theory paper of 50 marks and term work of 25 marks. 20 marks or 25 marks. So when you said term work, it is based on the performance in your internal exams. That is the credit test, class attendance, and the practical performance. But this 50 marks exam is a common paper, which is sent by the university. Sent by the university. How many colleges will be there, engineering colleges? 14 engineering colleges. How many? One four. And in second year engineering, the programming lab one, second year engineering, the subject as a programming lab one, which is for computer engineering and ITU. This subject basically divided into five units. In the first one, again the introduction to C contains data types, variables, operators, arrays, pointers. The second unit, structure, union, file handling. Pre-unit is related with the interconversion, that is the number system, like linear equation, differential equations. Computational systems. So basically numerical analysis. Numerical analysis and the implementation of these methods. Using C language. The fourth unit, that is the root of equations, interpolation. Okay. Numerical analysis continued, I will say. And fifth one for the sorting and the searching algorithms. Teaching scheme for this programming lab one, three hours theory per week and four hours practical per week, like twice in a week. So you call it programming lab, but it is essentially a regular course. There is no theory paper. Okay, okay. I say, there are lectures, but there is no theory paper. No theory lecture. The discussion is going on in the lecture hours and the actual implementation. For the practicals, per batch, twice a week, two hours practical. Do students do group projects in any one of these course or people write projects? Rather than the projects, the list of practical experiments are given by the university. 20 to 25 practical assignments are given. As per the instructor or the staff, say some modifications, they can do this one. Okay. This is one question I forgot to ask. That is a favorite question of mine. We could start with Professor Vaidya again. The question is on an average and forget the top programmers or poor programmers. But on an average, what is the length of a largest program that a student or group of students end up writing? It could be a programming system. It will not be a single program, multiple modules, if they do a project. But otherwise, what is the length of an average program that people write? This is useful to know because that tells us the ability to handle what kind of complexity is delivered in the course. In some sense. So, Professor Vaidya, what is your experience? How many LOC they would write on an average? A single program. Yeah. Four lines of course. Okay. So, a project would be 300 to 500 lines of course. And Prasashish. But if you don't have any project, for what question will students write 500 lines of course? 500 lines of course. They are having projects. They have projects. Yeah. They are having. It may exceed from 1000 also sometimes. It depends upon the project they used to do. And Prasam Aavash? Sir, we are having around 300 to 350 because we include so much, four and five assignments into one assignment. Suppose we want to design a program. No, no, no. There is a difference. In what I am talking about is a single solution to a single problem. How many lines of course will be there? So, typically a single program that they will write to solve an assignment. Average length will be very small then. It could be even 20, 30 lines, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, while this may be the total lines of course that they write. But individual program they will write will be only of this magnitude. Yeah. Actually, when we implement the Melok and Kelo function using a data structure to implement a link list, then we perform all these things in one program like insertion of a node. So, it could be about 100 lines of course. Yeah. Fine. And, Professor Atul. Sir, as the practical list is given by the university, it depends on the complexity of the program. Oh, so university says they have to do only so many practicals. Oh, yes. The list of practicals are given because the practical examination is there. Related with the project, we have many projects in the third year of engineering. But it is not compulsory. No, no. I am talking about this course. Introduction to computer program course. So, people will be writing really small programs. Not small programs, but it may be near about 60 to 100 lines. Okay. Because the numerical methods and their implementation. No, that will be the second year course. Second year course. I am talking about the first year. In related with the first year engineering, the practical sessions are related with the DOS commands, windows and some simple programs in C language. Oh, so there will be really short programs. Simple programs. Could not even be 60 to 100 lines. Because it is related with the second year programming, we can see about near about 100 or more than 100. And here it could be say something like 10 to 20 lines or whatever. Really small programs. Okay. Fine. Thank you. For second year engineering, the examination scheme. You said there is no theory paper. 50 mass term work and then practical exam for 50 mass. That is the external examination. Oh, you still have external exam. The university exam. Means people within this 14 colleges will rotate around. Rotate around. That is the university has appointed. Well, it serves a good purpose of every teacher knowing what is happening in other colleges. From the exam perspective, I do not see any advantage. Third person is the good way to assess the quality of the exam. No, I disagree with you. I say that we permit this only because we are not confident that we can be more critical than external people in evaluating our quality. This is not going forward. This should not be the way anyway. The best university system today in the world is the American university system. And there is absolutely no notion of any external examination in any college. Absolutely none. You go to the British universities whose legacy we follow. The British universities, at least the well-known universities like Oxford, Stanford, et cetera, like their autonomous colleges, and there is no external examination. This is a British legacy left for Indians where the basis was suspicion. The fellow will not be honest in evaluating, so you get an excellent person. And 60 years after independence, we still persist all. You should go back and shout at your vice chancellor or everybody saying, there's one mad professor called Fatah who is saying that you are so shameless that you don't have faith in yourself. You have to call outside people. This is not acceptable. Thank you, sir. We demean ourselves, you know. And what happens is because of the practice, see, for example, you are also thinking about it in this way for the first time. Just because it is going on, you would feel that that is the natural way of doing things. That is unnatural way of doing things. Ultimately, even somebody else setting a paper for your students, you should object. Because you have taught them, you know what you have taught. How can somebody else evaluate it? Anyway, that's a long-term problem. Thank you. But then, this is the frustration that teachers across all 4,000 colleges or majority of 4,000 colleges face. Right, next. Good morning, everyone. I am professor Sandeep Thorath from Rajarambapu Institute of Technology, Islampur. My college is part of Sivaji University, Kolhapur, where there are around 20 engineering colleges and same number of MCI and MCS colleges. How many engineering colleges? 20. In Sivaji University? Yes. Actually, last two years before, Sivaji University is suspected from the Sivaji University. So, another 20 colleges would have gone there? Yes. As a part of first year engineering, which is common for all branches, we have one subject in second semester, basic electronics and computer programming. Oh, what is that? Basic electronics and computer programming, where 50% of the syllabus is for the electronics part, like capacitors, diodes, logic, number theory, transistors, mostly electronic devices, and 50% part is for the computer programming, C programming. Other than the C programming, there is the introduction of Unix operating system as a part of second section. For this course, there are four hours of theory sessions and two hours of practicals. And this is for 14 weeks in a semester. 14 weeks? Yeah, one foot. The marks distribution is 100 marks theory exam and 25 marks for internal term work. As this course is common for all branches, there is a prescribed list of the practicals or experiments and that is decided by the university and every college is following that list. So, all experiments, they are there in the C language. So, around 12 experiments and lengthwise the experiments are not long, they are just simple experiments and that is there for all branches. So, say 10 to 20 lines of code is what people will write for each one. But you don't have a programming project. It is not that. Of course, you have a heavy syllabus. You have basic electronics. It is a traditional way of looking at programming. That programming emerges out of electronics and that is why it is combined. In fact, if you see the notion of introduction to technology, hardware, processor, memory, etcetera, etcetera, it all comes from the fact that the basis of computers is electronics. So, here is a question. If we had used hydraulics to build and or not circuits and build the entire computer using hydraulics, would we make hydraulics as a compulsory component of programming? Because programming is about driving a car. Internal combustion engine is about how a car runs and majority of the cases, drivers, in fact, good drivers need not know at all anything on how internal combustion engine functions. Now, this is a realization which has dawn on the world in last 30 years or so. But our university syllabi do not pay attention to that. So, for example, even number systems, are they relevant while teaching higher level language program? So, whether it is two's complement or one's complement, for the sake of interest, I can tell students what it is. But should it be for the purpose of evaluation when the focus should be on control structures and on handling numerical values that human beings give and human beings take? So, in so far as telling them about the inadequacy of floating point representation, that inaccuracies will come in, that is okay. But to ask a question to say, represent this in hexadecimal or represent this in octal, looks extremely peculiar from a programming language perspective. Maybe another reason is for the branches like electrical, electronics, computer science, all these things will be required in the second year onwards. And also, in any case, most engineering syllabi have a course in basic electronics to all branches any which way. So, your university seems to have combined these two. My suggestion which you might want to go back and take it back is saying that divide this into two courses. They could run for 202, 202 or 201.5, 201.5. But by separating them out, you are giving a message that logically one has nothing to do with the other. Because today the students will invariably connect the two. And one problem I find is that students by this process don't end up writing large programs. Now, is there any mechanism by which you can make them read large programs or that is also not possible? Not in the first year, in the second year syllabus it is there. You have another course, is it? Yeah, in second year computer science syllabus. Okay, that is CS. CS is okay, CS we know. CS will of course, ultimately a CS student when he or she does a final year project, if it is an implementation project, one would end up writing 5 to 10,000 lines of code. So, that is not a problem. In computer science we have C language syllabus once again, but much more in detail. The name of the subject is programming laboratory one, again similar like North Maharashtrian University. So, I can say very intensive C programming. Yeah, very intensive C programming. Okay, so from our perspective, this workshop could be useful to both the people who teach this course as well as the people who teach this course. And for information technology as well, similar course is there. And this theory paper again is set by the university I suppose. Theory paper is set by the university. Common to all 20 colleges. For the programming laboratory subject, we don't have theory subject. There is a 50 marks external examination again and 50 marks of internal. This is lab. Yeah, this is lab. We have one more subject, a mini project in the second year itself, where student is supposed to do programs or projects in C language or in C++. They have choice. And where the code will be around 600 or 700 less. And these are supervised by the faculty, these mini project course? Yeah, by the internal faculty only. I think this is a good progression. Our idea is to try and get a flavor of a mini project in the first course itself. First course. One more thing is like most of the branches, they have C++ programming in the second year as well. So if the C concepts are very clear, then it will be more easy. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I am Ravindra Keskar from VNIT in Akpur. So regarding the programming course, just like couple of other professors talked yesterday, till 2009, like till last year, we had separate first level programming courses for different branches. Typically, these courses used to be in the third semester, and for a very few branches, they used to be in the fourth semester. There are different languages followed, including Pascal, C and C++. Out of that, I will just bring attention to one course which evolved over a period of 20 years, which was introduction to programming in Pascal, which was the first level course. So the programming language which was used was Pascal, but here the stress was more or less about algorithm and logic development and problem solving. The view of this course was mainly CS specific and mainly inspired by Monograph by Dykstra and Science of Programming book by David Grease. So they used to talk about structured programming, the loop invariance and how they are used in the construction of the loops themselves. Then when people used to talk about recursion, they also used to talk about programming on the program stack and the program complexity discussion on that big O notation and which one is better and stuff like that, and divide and conquer techniques and dynamic programming techniques. So essentially this course kind of gave a very good basic foundation for computer science students and one advantage we saw with this course in last couple of 2-3 years was that when students come in the first year, many of them come from CBC background 10th and 12th here, 10th and 12th standard. So they used to also get a lot of takeaways from this particular course otherwise people think that they know C and C++ language. Similarly for electronics, the course was designed by electronics professors and then they used to have more stress on basically little bit more stress on data structures. In computer science we had a different course on data structures but they included data structures in their course and maybe more stress on the bit level operator so that if someone wants to write an assembler or do bitler operation, they used to do those things more. So we had that kind of flexibility till 2009 for every branch. What happened last year is like it was decided that we need to move this particular course in the first year of engineering and it will be common through all the branches and in our institute we have almost 600 students in first year right now which may increase in next couple of years and we don't have a common facility for all of them or at least 300 of them to sit together. So we have 10 different classes of 60 students each. So this particular course now as I said this particular course because it needs to be a common course C language was decided as the programming language for this course and mainly the motive is basically they learn programming techniques as well as the language constructs also. So the credit structure is like this or the time duration it's a 302 structure, 3 hours of theory and 2 hours of practical per week. Credits are 8 which will amount to almost one fifth of total credits they need to take in a semester little bit maybe more than one fifth because not all courses are of 8 credits and they need to take 5 courses I believe. The exam pattern is that we have two mid-same exams of 10 marks each then 10 marks are kept for teachers assignment. So teacher is free to take quizzes he may give many project if he wants or short assignments, homework assignments so there are 10 marks for teachers assignment 30 marks for practicals and 40 marks for end same. So you have 10 classes so effectively 10 teachers are involved in teaching this course yeah so actually what we have done is we have split those 600 students into 2 parts 300 each in each semester so it happens to be like we require 5 teachers each for each semester. So the same 5 teachers can teach next year also. Yes exactly other problem the logistic problem that we are facing is like not all the senior professors can be involved in teaching 5 different classes on computer program because then other classes at mtc level and btc level they will suffer the higher courses. You may consider doing what we do here for example when I will be teaching c s volumal we will have about 1000 students but we are also split 500 and 500 but there are only 2 teachers so I will teach the c s volumal course this time but there will be 2 batches of 250 each and I will repeat the lecture to 250 students. So morning I teach one batch afternoon I teach second batch there are only 2 hours a week for our course you have 3 hours this way it reduces the involvement of 2 many teachers in this course. Yeah only so this was I believe this was considered and it found out that it was found out that we may not have facility available throughout. But how would you handle the exam because each teacher will be setting his own paper. Right. So during the exam so in the exam time so what happens is for this particular course we have 2 senior professors who are involved in this course as course coordinators. Oh I see I see. And then there are 5 teachers who are teaching this course so these 2 course coordinators they will make sure that what is happening every week in this course and whether everyone is. I see so you are basically teaching similar things. Similar things. So contents could be very similar. Yeah contents would be only the delivery might change. That's ok. And then even the exams so exams are same. So you will have common exam. Common exam yes. But all teachers will have contribution to that common exam. Exactly. That coordinator means some kind of meeting will happen. Exactly. So they will by discussion they will decide they will finalize the paper and all the things. So this is our now first level course in programming and because it is common for everyone. What we have done is as far as the curriculum is concerned definitely it involves these basic constructs and the flow charts and loops and everything. Similarly we take so we have these remnants of like the introduction to programming so we kind of try to introduce some of those concepts in this course. For example we will take all kinds of searching and sorting techniques up to mer sort and quick sort. So people are even non-competition people are introduced to everything. Yes. And and some little bit more stress on logic development as well by taking short short programs and then definitely try to cover some aspects of C like pointers and everything and areas of structures. So so this is so this course started as I said last year so two semesters are over and I have couple of observations to share now because till last year the students are kind of uniform. Now what we have is in the class of 60 students we don't have we don't get all competent students in one class and so it's like a distributed thing. So one of the observation is over here the interesting observations is that many of the non-computer science students they may not take this course very seriously because they may think that this is not useful to them or they are lagging behind because of their lack of interest. So the average level of interest in a class has kind of gone down so teacher has to actually make sure that everyone gets what he or she is saying. On the other hand there is an interesting observation that many of the non-computer science students they may outperform students at this and they are more interested. The second observation is that now because the expectation is that students learn programming as well as the C language so there is some focus on language constructs also which in the earlier introduction program was not there so now it's a challenge for computer science teachers mainly to make sure that when they come to data structure scores they are actually at similar level when they come over there so I used to I taught data structures for two semesters like I will be continuing that so when I used to say in my class that insertion sort or if I take at least and I say burging is. You should be familiar with that during the previous course now this may not happen. So now I have modified data structures so that I take in those things over there. But then to some extent when we moved to the common course there was like some kind of hard one as well in the sense like we are missing on one of the course which evolved over 20 years but that's the fact of life and otherwise the course was taken up well in these two semesters and we have some learnings and I believe this particular meeting also has helped me a lot too because I was involved in coming up with the curriculum for this course. Good. Thank you. Thank you Keshav.