 Dome. My name is Emily Brewer and I will be your host for today's program. Under the Dome is Town Meeting TV's coverage of the Vermont legislative session and in this series we speak with legislators and advocates about the bills moving through the legislature this year and also what that might mean for you and your neighbors. So today we have two legislators from South Burlington with us today, Representative Martin Lalonde and Senator Thomas Chittenden. Thank you both for joining us today in the studio. Thank you. And so we'll start out, I'll start with you Tom. Both of you serve on a few different committees and panels but Thomas in particular you serve on two committees, a joint committee on oversight, the New England Board of Higher Ed, several more, another progress council and used to be a city counselor for the town of the city of South Burlington and my main question is here, how do you balance all of those jobs and still do your work well? So the last part I don't know if I do accomplish that, some would argue different ways. I'd say I've always had a lifetime of service. In high school I was in the key club, in college I was a resident assistant, after college I remember working on political campaigns like Howard Dean's presidency, I was a volunteer firefighter back in Williston. I've just always found time to give back to my community. I found city council to be an extension of that. That being the case I am no longer on the South Burlington City Council. I just finished up my term this past March. It was partly because I feel like I was spreading myself too thin. As for the committees you just listed, I'll say the not all of them are active. For example the Vermont State Infrastructure Bank Board has only met twice since I've been appointed to it. So it's a rather what I call Somulant Committee. So it doesn't have a large time commitment but we do have the state Senate does appoint to it. Vepsi I was just appointed to and I took that on knowing that the South Burlington City Council is wrapping up and I have a lot of experience with TIFFS which the Tax Increment Finance Districts which Vepsi oversees. So I saw some synergies and overlapping with that. But to answer your question I like to be busy. That's what I do. I also have a full-time job and three kids in public school. So I just I find that it's better to not have enough hours in the day and I always like to say if you want to get something done give it to somebody who's busy. As to whether or not I do all of these roles well that's arguable but I do see value in the intersection of many of these topics that intersect the jurisdictions of each of the topic areas. Great and same for you Martin you know you're on a lot of committees as well but in particular you're serving as the chair of the judiciary committee in the house. Can you share what that committee has been up to this session and also what it means to be the chair of the committee? Sure sure I'd love to do that but first I want to compliment the Somulant. I'm going to use that for describing some of the other committees that I'm on as well. The ones that don't meet very often. Yeah so this is my fifth term in the legislature and the first eight years I was on the judiciary committee. My third term I was a ranking member of the judiciary committee and last term I was an assistant majority leader as well as staying on the judiciary committee. So I was I feel I was ready to move into this new position new challenges being a chair of a committee. The biggest challenge is just agenda setting which is really where the the influence comes in for being a chair as well because you can largely set the agenda and which bills you're going to take up. Of course there are priority bills of the caucus and of the legislature that that I have to take up but otherwise there's a lot of leeway a lot of flexibility as far as what I'm able to take up so I'm blessed with an exceptional committee. It's really a good committee. We we had seven returning members on the committee although one of the members had to retire or resign because of too many other things going on this committee's members life work family sometimes it's really hard to do if you have really young kids. Any event but we filled that seat with another individual so we have four new legislators on the committee one who came over from corrections and institutions but they they just are just top-notch it makes the committee much easier to work work with. They're they take on work they take on responsibility they're super smart we have a fun time it's a really good atmosphere in the committee as well we're able to keep it light which is important often because we do deal with some pretty tough issues domestic violence sexual violence you know there's the intersection of the criminal justice system with the mental health system so we have some pretty heavy topics so it's it's good to have be able to keep it light with the individuals we have so I'm I'm I'm blessed to have the committee that I have and we I think have done some really good work this year as well. Well I will say that we when we took a trip to the state house last week we spoke with a a representative that's on the judiciary committee and she spoke very highly of you and your leadership so so it's it's it's felt throughout the committee so I before we move on to the next question I do want to give folks a chance I forgot to mention this in the intro we are accepting calls so if you have a question for either Martin or Tom please call in at 802-862-3966 we'll prioritize your questions but in the meantime we'll keep moving down my list. So this session there's there's been some big investments that the Democrats have put on the table for Vermont families such as investments in child care paid family and medical leave affordable housing and the list goes on and so starting with Tom can you speak about the impact that those investments would have on your constituents in South Burlington if passed both in services and resources they offer but also in the tax impact that they'll have. Certainly I might focus on child care since I spent some time on that in Senate finance and I have a pretty good idea of some of the struggles in Vermont. The pandemic really showed shown a light on how difficult and expensive it is to find care to cover to pay to to take care of children in the great state of Vermont what this bill that is moving forward will do is will increase the subsidies available to the to different income levels a larger income band which will do two things one will allow for or make it more affordable to get child care but also funnel more money into the child care system so as to be able to pay child care providers enough to attract them to want to serve in that profession because it's not just a matter of the cost of child care it's about the availability the wait lists are years in advance I remember how difficult it was for us to find a child care provider we we had a great experience with a small little provider but we had to ask permission when we wanted to have her second and third child just to make sure she had room for us so I think what we're doing on child care is going to be very important and in Senate finance we had businesses testify that this is a workforce development issue enabling people to enter re-enter the workforce to focus on jobs is what child care can do and so this is part of the solution that businesses are definitely advocating and supporting the senate proposed a financing mechanism that would translate to I believe 0.42 percent payroll tax paid for by 75 percent of that from the employer with 25 percent of it from the employee I believe the house has revised that and used an income tax so there's a slight increase in the income tax and then a full half a percentage point on and without the employer contributions I don't know all the details it just came out of their committee last week and so I'm looking forward to seeing how that compares with what we passed that will have an impact on on employees if you work in the state of Vermont and these pass you will see a a reduction if it is on to the employee even if it does an employer tax that does translate into their availability to offer benefits as well as raises and increases the other places that I could talk more on but I don't know how much time we have on each of these things is on housing because that too I always say all roads lead to housing to have more people to take care for our children to to serve in all the industries that we need to have more people in Vermont and also make housing more affordable we need more housing across the income spectrum both affordable housing and housing that is affordable and so I'm happy and excited about the home bill that is working its way through the house right now I think it's going to do a lot of great things to address that that root issue that is causing a lot of problems in multiple sectors within our economy yeah so I agree with everything Tom says that that's the easy way out but I'll expand a little bit so last last summer and fall leading up to the election even though I didn't have an opponent I did knock on doors and went out and talked to a lot of constituents which is actually one of the best parts of the jobs is getting to do that knocking on neighbors doors and talking to them and the two or three main issues there is there were a couple others but top five issue was certainly child care having more affordable more available child care and quality care housing was a second and and also paid family leave those those three really go together and as far as a lot of my constituents and what I think as well so the investments we're making there are I think really critical for for my district and and I had a lot of support for and with an understanding that it is going to cost obviously but I think majority of the people I've talked to really are in support of those particular issues so although on the housing issue there there's been certainly some controversy with that particular bill in south burlington there there are some concerns we've made sure that the committees that are taking those up have heard from our city council and from our city planner that had time to present various ideas of how to improve that bill but I think it's very important bill that we do get through and it looks like we will so well and I that leads right into my next question which kind of explores the topic of housing in south burlington a little further which so could you either of you or both talk a little bit more about the any of the affordable housing money do you foresee any of this landing in particular south burlington housing development projects and further do you think that act 250 needs to be reformed to address the housing crisis I'll let you go first great so the second part to your question I'd probably speak more to yes so act 250 has done great things for the state of vermont it was past 50 years ago in a different time in a different era when we had different priorities and different issues putting pressure on things I am not advocating to repeal act 250 act 250 is statewide zoning when there is no zoning and it does a lot of great things to make sure the people are heard and that we have good planning put in place that being the case nothing is written in stone nothing is infallible and act 250 could be tweaked it could be adjusted for the times could be modernized when we look at the housing crisis we're in today I'm a strong proponent for making tweaks to act 250 in tandem with the changes in the home bill that also address local control issues and local permitting the the government the state of vermont can't build all the houses it just doesn't work that way we that's not what we do we're overseeing policy what we can do is we can look at the regulatory frameworks at both the local level and the state level to enable and drive policy that we want to see happen and and behavior in the marketplace and that's where act 250 is absolutely part of the conversation I'm happy and glad for what came out of the senate regarding act 250 reform for anybody that was following the press closely I wanted to see more and I did advocate for that I was I'm still supportive of the home bill as presented but there was some additional act 250 changes that were proposed by the senate economic development committee that were taken out by the senate natural resources committee and I understand the house is gaining some is at least looking at it the rural caucus is supporting that same change I recommended can elaborate there is this again I don't know if you want to give me a clock or something I could just babble on for hours but there is this behavior modifier in act 250 that's been in place for a long time where if you have owned land I own four acres in South Burlington I am not planning to develop my wife does not want houses behind our house but if I wanted to I as an individual landowner could put up to nine additional units on my land within five years within five miles of that land without triggering act 250 so as soon as I want to put a tenth unit not that I want to put any units on my land I don't but if I want to put 10 units on my land all of a sudden my paperwork would go from this at the local level to this at the statewide level and the costs associated to that paperwork and the time and uncertainty is bewildering and it scares off for people from putting that tenth unit onto their properties and so what I think Martin Representative LaLonde would see in South Burlington attest to I know it's all around my neighborhood there are these nine unit developments on land that could easily support for gents clay protecting all the natural resources that could take 14 units or they could take 20 units but they're not doing that many units on those smaller parcels because they're avoiding the paperwork that is an arbitrary I've asked I asked all the people that have been around for a long time why 10 units why this nine units it's because the number sounded good 50 years ago and so as I would say what I argue for and still think would be a great small change that would address the crisis that we're in today is let's tweak that my amendment on the floor was to increase that to 25 units for three years and three years is important because of interim zoning that would protect any community that didn't feel prepared for it and I also propose not statewide but only in communities with planning and zoning but that was four minutes so maybe I should stop there I'll let Martin if there's anything you'd like to add well yeah I'd like to add that you know I I definitely respect the committee process and we have two committees in the house that are looking at this particular bill I think it's important to balance what act 250 has done for the state over the last decades and that is really keeping the state the green mountain state and keeping you know reducing development but we do recognize that that there is a need for more housing and and I am a support of if you if you're going to do housing it should be denser where in the appropriate spots but but that does have to be balanced against the other needs for a community that that you you know that you want to have in a community you want to have some open space you want to have wildlife corridors etc so there's a balance that goes on there and the big issue is how much the state should dictate that versus local zoning my inclination is that it should be more the local zoning but but I'm really going to let the committee do its its work to to figure that out I think south burlington definitely and tom probably knows the figures better than I do have definitely been doing our part regarding housing over the last 10 years I think we've built hundreds of units in in south burlington and that should be respected as well you know we're certainly doing our part to help with respect to housing and there's more that should be done I absolutely agree with that as for act 250 there was a bill that I supported last year that was passed it really was more in the governance of act 250 that was vetoed and not overridden that that seems to be a dead letter at this point and they're looking at different tweaks for for act 250 this year with the emphasis being on dense development in the appropriate locations and I agree with that concept definitely well the topic of housing at least in my mind does go hand in hand with education and in south burlington in particular schools well in all over chitin county schools are overflowing and it seems like some big investments are needed in order to accommodate the growing student population I'll let either of you speak to this first but what can the legislature do about that well well one thing is we should watch out what we're doing as far as housing if we're making it so that communities are going to have to build more housing there has to be respect for the the results of that can be more students going to our already overcrowded schools and so I've been working at least for the last eight years I've I've been working towards having the state support school construction they did this for a long time they would cover 30% of the cost of school construction that there's been a moratorium since the late 2000 aughts I can't remember exactly when but but we need assistance from the state to deal with our overcrowding crowded schools but also with schools across the state that are really in need of renovation and and maintenance backlogs need to be addressed so it seems like we're moving a little bit towards that there I think that the treasure that we have now is more open to the bonding for for assistance in school construction but we have probably two and a half to three billion dollars of needs in in school construction and I think that hasn't been receiving enough attention you know we can build houses and bring families here but if we don't have a place to put their kids you know it's going to be tough to continue to attract families to the state so I'd offer one thing and it's more of a systemic perspective and I'd love a counterpoint this is something that when I first got involved in city council politics back in 2014 I met with somebody that I still hold in very high regard and I need to reach out to him is Jim condos he was a south Berlin city councilor for many years and a state senator and then secretary of state and I just wanted to get his perspective on a lot of topics and then senate on education in the state I was also talking to his daughter the other day and she remembers him saying this very thing and I'd be curious how much this overlays with or valid is validated with your perspective but when act 60 was passed in the 90s because of the brigham decision uh scent pooling all of the education dollars and resources um that has changed the incentive structure for when it comes to funding our schools prior to the brigham decision when a community wanted a new high school they would work with their city and the city would enable zoning for commercial enterprises so that for example in south berlington they zone for the university mall for the tech park over there by the airport as well to have commercial enterprises to contribute to a tax base that would then help offset or subsidize the costs of the school relative to the residential owners or taxpayers property taxpayers so there was an incentive for growth commercial growth but when act 60 passed now all the money gets sent to the state and then it gets redistributed based on how many kids there are so that incentive to allow for more growth was dissipated and now people see only the negatives besides the municipal burden is actually still spread as as grand lists are grown but my reason why I bring that up now is I want people to start to see that the way that we can also grow the denominator for how much our tax burden is to pay for these schools is to look for ways to bring the right economic activity to the state of vermont I for example beta beta is doing some amazing things in south berlington it is putting three hundred million dollars into a new plant and now they're trying they're expanding up to saint albin's and also to caledonia county those are green tech jobs that are bringing more opportunity more investment more activity that will lighten the tax load for the rest of us going forward my concern that since the 90s for the last 20 30 years now almost we're just not growing the grand list for commercial activities to to keep up with and also incentivize the investments in our schools that since 2007 there's been a moratorium on bonding it's part of the systemic issue it's not the only solution but it's just important for us to see that we want to grow the denominator with the numerator in order to keep the tax burden manageable right right yeah no I agree with that as well so I know you have other questions but I was hoping to also cover a couple of things that our judiciary committee has I would I would love that okay go right ahead yeah just please do because you know I think we've done some really good work this year tomorrow we'll be passing out for concurring with the senate the proposal of amendment to a bill called h89 which is a shield bill it's to provide protections for individuals who come to the state of vermont to get legally protected healthcare in vermont gender affirming care reproductive health care it also will protect providers of of those of those legally protected healthcare activities which is a very critical bill given what's going on around the country I mean states are are looking to hold people that are not in their state criminally or civilly liable for providing gender affirming care or reproductive health care and we want to protect our providers here even if they're reaching out to help somebody in a state that bans those procedures a companion senate bill is back in the senate with some amendments from the house which I think we'll be passing out very soon as well which protects a provider's license if they have any problem with their license in another state because they provided health care that we protect here in vermont that they won't have consequences in vermont same with insurance so that's been a really important bill another important bill that we've passed out that is in the senate and should be coming back probably with some changes is a suicide prevention firearms bill that would establish a three-day waiting period would implement a secure storage law and would improve our red flag law where somebody can get an extremist protection order to remove firearms from somebody who's a danger to themselves or others so those are two really big bills that we've worked on but we've worked on a number of initiatives related to domestic violence and being able to protect survivors in those situations allowing certain domestic violence disputes to go to community justice centers is one to address abuse of litigation where somebody who is an abuser uses our courts to continue to abuse a victim so we've addressed those issues as well so it's been quite a bit of things that we've been working on one last thing i'll mention is we've really been working it's and this is a biannium project of so it's not going to be done this session is is putting more resources and oversight and and codification of restorative justice practices where individuals can be kept out of the criminal justice system entirely and go through a different path if they've done something wrong so these are some of the important things that we've been working on in in judiciary committee so thank you martin and those all are very important things that need to be worked on and before we wrap up here tom is there anything that you'd like to add just in addition as what you're working on in your committee sure but i also want to just say i have long admired represent of la lawn he's served longer than i have his advocacy and energy on the very important topic of gun control and i'm very excited about the suicide prevention bill that is making its way through the senate now for the 72-hour waiting period as well as safe storage so great work thank you for all you've done and all you continue to do i look forward to supporting that bill i serve on senate transportation as well as senate finance one thing that i think a lot of the viewing public might be interested in it was we're starting to look at ways to have electric vehicles pay their fair share for our roadways so if you when every time you fill up at the gas pump you're paying a gas tax which pays to plow, pave, and paint our roads so that those roads still need to be plowed, paved, and painted but electric vehicles aren't paying the gas tax and so what you will see we are going to in the transportation bill i'll be seeking a federal money to actually flesh out how it would look to charge electric vehicles through a mileage-based user fee for vermonters that when they inspect their car it will check how many miles you had the last time and how many miles when you inspect this time and the difference there'd be a small adjustment somewhat comparable to how much you'd pay in the gas tax that would only apply to entirely electric vehicles so entirely plug-in vehicles they would pay it that way hybrid vehicles there'd be a proposed to look into how this would translate to an increased car registration fee so if you currently pay a hundred dollars a year it might be 175 and then also since that would only get vermonters but out-of-staters use our roads too when you look at how EV behavior is i don't know if you have any EV yet but a lot of out-of-staters are expected to be out of towners and out-of-staters are going to use those level three direct chargers the fast chargers as you see it like healthy living or so on so we're included in that study is to look to have a charge on the pump of the electric charge pump so that's what we're going to expect back in the next year or two nothing's going into effect right away this is to understand the contours of that it's something that we're looking at maybe beginning in 2025 when market saturation or adoption rate of EVs reaches a certain threshold but it's on the five to ten-year horizon that we want EVs to start contributing to pay for our roadways great thank you and before we finish up here one last question we'll start with martin how can your constituents get involved in the legislative process at this point as well as a follow-up to that how can they reach you and get in contact with you sure so being a citizen legislature when when i have constituents reach out to me about issues you know that certainly helps me focus on what issues i should look at but i often ask them to uh help out a little bit you know if they have ideas i asked them to scope out a little bit what the solution to the problems are and and you know very much like working with constituents uh to figure out how to address certain issues that we have before us so on a monthly basis i have a column in the other paper i always include my my email address which is emlalone at state.ledgeleg.vt.us and i have my phone number on there as well which is 802-863-3086 usually people contact me by phone and i'll probably once again start having a weekly coffee at the at the Panera which i've done but i've not really fully gotten back to that since the pandemic but we'll be doing that again soon. That's fantastic thank you and same question to you tom. Sure well we do legislative forums so i actually it should be at a shelter one right now but i prioritize this appreciate that i do hop around all the communities in my district and tonight for example south brilicton is having one from six to seven p.m so those are great to go to definitely email phone calls you can also come to the state house i if the constituents email me i do my darndest to respond back not necessarily the same day and sometimes when you ask me questions about less less topical issues it takes me some time to research so i try to catch up on the weekends but you can reach me at thomaschittenden.com and the ledge email it's always hard and i bumble it so i did thomaschittenden.com should be able to find me or thomaschittenden.com is a great way to contact me. Great well thank you both to martin and thomas for joining us in the studio today that wraps up our episode of under the dome with south brilicton partial a partial part of the south brilicton delegation so thank you all for tuning in and watching under the dome will be continuing throughout the end of the legislative session connecting you with your representatives in mott pilier you can find this program and others at our website www.ch17.tv or on our town meeting tv youtube channel thanks for watching and sharing under the dome from town many tv have a great day