 There are no borders. It doesn't matter where CO2 emissions occur, it really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if one country is performing better than another, if one economy is performing better than another. This is a global problem, a global challenge, and the only way to solve this can be a global way. Kai Landwehr is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Kai is my friend and works as head of marketing at MyClimate, a Swiss-based NGO focusing on climate protection and sustainability measures. He is an expert in communications and sustainability with strong expertise in sports and digitization. Before tapping into climate protection, Kai has worked 10 years in the sporting goods industry as communications and brand manager for Nike. Born and raised in Germany, he holds a master's of art degree in ancient history from the Heinrichstein University in Düsseldorf. Kai is a football, a fictionato, a passionate hiker, and in winter times a snowboarder with a great attitude and very limited skills. I know him as my friend and fellow transformer. We first met in Liechtenstein at the Huss event and have seen each other since at many events and kept in contact. He is here really to represent not only his views on sustainability and the direction of the future, but as his role with MyClimate as head of marketing. I want to tell you just a little bit before we dive in and get the full understanding and just from Kai on MyClimate about them. MyClimate is a partner for effective climate protection globally and locally together with industry partners and private individuals. MyClimate wants to shape the future of the world through advisory services, educational programs, as well as its own projects. It does so in a market oriented and customer focused way as a non-profit organization. This international initiative with Swiss roots was founded in 2002 by students and professors of the ETH Zurich. Today MyClimate is one of the world's quality leaders in voluntary carbon offsetting CO2 offsetting measures. Its customers include large and medium sized small companies, public administration, nonprofit organizations, event organizers and private individuals such as myself. I've been using MyClimate for a few years now to offset my emissions and my travels and events that I go and speak at. I can tell you they are a fabulous partner, they represent several airlines and organizations and their high quality projects promote quantifiable climate protection and a greater sustainability worldwide. CO2 emissions are currently offset voluntarily by means of more than 70 climate protection projects in 30 countries. I want you to know that there are many climate emissions, CO2 emissions, offsetting programs around the world, but none of them are so reputable as MyClimate and the team and staff that represent them. Kai, welcome. Thank you for being on the show. It's good to see you. Sorry for the long introduction, but I want to make sure our listeners get a good setup of what we're going to talk about today on the show. Hi Mark, it's good to see you too. Yeah, and thanks for having me. So the last time I think we met, so you were my guest at MyClimate, they went. And so I'm your guest now, great. Yeah, I'm so honored and thankful that that is correct and that was really what I wanted to talk about first. We saw each other this year at the beginning of this year right before I went to Davos for the World Economic Forum. And I was with Princess Absa and a few other colleagues were doing the road to Davos tour. And you were gracious enough and MyClimate was gracious enough to invite us to speak at your cloud apparel, MyClimate cloud apparel. And so we were in Zurich and it was an absolutely wonderful event, jam packed, people were standing, it was standing room only, fabulous, sustainable food products and it was a really nice event. This year had started out with an absolute bang, in my opinion, it was a disappointment from COP 25 in Madrid, but then January, February was really a monumental movements and action around climate, the decade of action and things were happening. And then the pandemic hit, something to take pause and have deep respect for as a company and as an individual who thinks about sustainability and resilience, how have you weathered this pandemic time and have you or MyClimate been in a situation or had the resilience to bounce back stronger or to weather this pandemic, well, can you give us an update of how you've been since I last saw you and maybe has any of your previous works or experiences helped you to get through this a little bit better than most. Okay, yeah, of course, we as an organization, we were also hit by this pandemic. And I think as in every organization, there was a time of really of insecurity, how can we deal with it, how can we deal with it as an organization, how do we organize ourselves, how do we structure as an organization ourselves, but, but more important, what does this mean for the market, what does this mean for our partners. And so we really we needed some time to figure out, but still as of the moment after, what is it, four or four months, five months of this pandemic. As of the moment, we, we are pretty positive about it. So we hope this is really our hope that we will come back stronger because we were in a very strong position. And as with every crisis, if you are in a strong position before it is quite likely that you come back even stronger. So this is from from a market perspective. So this is really our hope but looking, looking to our partner side so they were very very positive signs, let's say after after a couple of weeks so our corporate partner they came back to us new leads came came to us new companies who really tried to capitalize on this time given to them and say okay, I'll be resilient enough as a company. And we have the pandemic right now but we have an even larger crisis on the horizon so are we set up for these coming climate crisis. What do our customers think are we in good shape, do we have the right answers for our customers for our contribution for more climate climate friendly economy and society. So this these were very very positive signs. On the other hand, so we do, as you mentioned before, we do a considerable amount of our business, okay we're an NGO but name it business we do a lot of our business together with private individuals. And then they use our our carbon footprint calculator for flights. So with with the corona pandemic, you have 90% or more airplanes on the ground. So you can imagine what it means in terms of our compensation business and the revenues we get from the compensation and also the support we could give by these compensation to our climate protection projects. And this will, I think, most likely not come back this year, maybe not in 2021, which is good on the one side for the climate, absolutely, because if people look for alternatives for business trouble, for instance, or if they look for more climate friendly alternatives for for the locations. This is a very good sign. So more people I think are likely to take a train, or maybe do do the locations in a in a distance of two or 300 kilometers, which is very very good for the climate. Okay, but this is the challenge for us as an organization. But as of the moment, I think maybe we will get kind like we say in Germany blue eye, and maybe some scars, but it's really we hope that we come back stronger. And the good thing is we will definitely we are definitely in the shape and resilient enough to maintain our work for climate protection. It's fabulous to hear you as my friend, how have you weathered the pandemic, how have you been how has it affected you. Yeah, so this is a tough question, because I see all the epidemic outside, and there were people dying dying before the time. Many people are affected, and we have, I think, really very strong social questions, we have to answer. And we, we sacrificed a lot as a society and I see this outside. And this makes me really sad, of course, but from a, from a pure personal perspective. I had a very good time. I could spend a lot of time with my family. I could do a lot of sports, walk outside because here in Switzerland, we had a lockdown but it was not that strict so you could any time meet with four other individuals was not a problem you could walk outside. All the nature and all this kind of stuff. I also figured out that I could do my job very well in the home office, and that I could also stay in touch with my team at my climate. Why are these digital channels so it from a pure personal perspective, I had a pretty pretty good time. But it's just just my personal perspective, and I'm absolutely aware of all this sad things happened outside. And if I could change I would. Yeah, I totally agree and I think there's been numerous people in your similar position where it's a difficult time but they've realized that the life style the home that they've created for them and their families. You know, in a lockdown or pandemic situation that actually is pretty good and you actually get to reconnect with nature you get to reconnect with your family. You, you rally with those you love and and and a time of need you you kind of are in a position to help others but also to continue to work because you're almost already have all the tools to work in the future. What's happened for many people is now they've been in this lockdown situation, and they're beginning to see their four walls, much more closer than they ever have before and they're realizing that the, the home environment that they've created for themselves. Was was not good enough was not it was it was only a sleeping and eating place and but to be on a lockdown or to be there more than usual that you get cabin fever that the domestic violence becomes on the rise and a lot more of the stir craziness and sickness can come by being locked up in the human zoo that we've created whether it's all we could afford or whether. However, we've set up our living conditions that we realized that it wasn't very well thought out for the future it's not a very resilient form of living. We see our neighborhoods and our supply chain and our distribution of food and toilet trees and those products that we rely upon and we realize that you know some of us have hit the panic mode they say I better stock up on everything because I don't know if it's going to I don't know if it's going to happen in the future. Instead of saying no, I'm resilient I have a bidet I don't need toilet paper I have other tools and tricks in my home or my apartment or where I live that I can kind of self sustain myself I can be resilient during this time that I, you know, can produce I have a little bit of a rationing food I have a little bit of a reserve and things. So it's really this kind of this insight of Wow. So I'm glad to hear that you, for whatever reason, you've had that you set up it looks like your home's nice I know that you're you're you're enjoy the time with your family. And that but there's some people during this time that a lot of people who weren't in such fortunate situations and weren't prepared and a lot of things bubbled to the surface and you know I have a lot of friends and acquaintances and Sweden, they were not really on a lockdown situation and didn't really have big measures in place. And, you know, so the everyone around the world has has different scenarios but it's just good to hear how how you dealt with it and how how the time was for you I had this this the similar feeling as well. That leads me to my first question. And that is really, are you a global citizen you consider yourself a global citizen and how would you feel that in the future. There was a removal of borders walls divisions nations and these things that divide humanity from one one another. Do you have any insights or feelings or views on that. And after you've answered it for yourself. Is there any ties to that and my climate and how they work and how the carbon offsetting works because carbon is a global citizen so to say it's, it's not tied to just one nation or city or border. Yeah, okay so first my my personal view on that yes, I feel as a global citizen, whatever this mean, but I think that the concept of nations, what's ever so doesn't doesn't work for me. Because I can't see much difference between myself and you, or somebody living in Africa so at the end it all comes down to to very basic things. No matter in which country you live in so it's all about let's say it's about it's about love it's about personal relationship it's about try to have a good living that the famous pursuit of like whatsoever so yeah this is. I think this, this is, we are all the same in this way so and I was really positive about it, five or 10 years ago with all the borders coming down with all the new the new connectivity worldwide so I think this was a great fantastic development. And I'm also on the same side a bit scared and I really care about all these new or coming up tendencies of coming back to nationalism, coming back to really really focused focused view on things to to the concept of we against them and all these kind of stuff so this is a thing which was which really scares me. But and coming back to the to the to the part of our work and to the work for climate protection. It is exactly what what you said, there are no borders. It doesn't matter where CO2 emissions occur. It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if one country is performing better than another if one economy is performing better than another. This is a global problem a global challenge and the only way to solve this can be a global way. So it won't work out to say hey this is not our problem. Or we don't believe we close our borders we build world world on our southern border and then yeah you have to deal with with this climate issue. So even for countries which which might have to do okay we are in the northern hemisphere. So if it gets a bit warmer, that's fine maybe it's good for our agriculture. Even for these countries this won't work out. And especially here in Europe so if you remember we're still talking about a so-called refugee crisis. We're talking about this since what was it 2015. What is this refugee crisis we are talking about what is it right now one or two million people coming from from the countries from the southern hemisphere. So imagine imagine what will happen if we have a global sea level rise. What will happen in countries with Bangladesh. A global sea level rise of 10 centimeters 20 centimeters will have an impact for the life of 50 million people or more. What should they do. Where should they go. Who is to blame. So this is a real this is a global issue and we have to deal with this issue as global citizens. And if we can find ways to identify hotspots or even to identify quick wins for the climate. We have really to focus on them and they have to sing on the broader perspective. And there are some very very good developments. I think you always say the Paris Agreement was a global moonshot. Absolutely I absolutely agree. We have also some some very bold statements for them as for the moments there are statements like the new Green Deal for Europe. So there is I think there is this mindset. But many many of the decision makers they have these global mindset. But what way what they also have to do is they have to gain the hearts of the ordinary people. And maybe with the corona pandemic. The chances are higher at the moment. But maybe it's more difficult with all these informations misinformation outside with the tendency to to to think more national. I don't know but my really my help is that people see we have a global pandemic with the corona crisis a virus doesn't care about any border. And so does the climate and so so do CO2 emissions. I'm in line with you and that leads nicely into kind of why I asked that question. And you also touched upon it in a different way you touched upon it in and regards to the Paris Agreement. The 2030 agenda. Before the Paris Agreement before the 2030 agenda. And that that agreement September 24 was the release of the sustainable development goals and you're absolutely right. The first ever global moonshot but more than that it is the first ever global historical precedence it's it's an historical precedence that 197 nations countries came together and agreed upon a plan a roadmap to get us to December 2030. It's a different way than ever is imaginable. Now, we just spoke about and you you took gave me your views on gold global citizenry. But I want others to know who haven't fully grasped the understanding. The United Nations sustainable development goals the targets and indicators that are behind those the monies. The dollar amount that's behind those in the trillions and in the trillions every year to reach those. And we've arrived through back casting and systems dynamic modeling and foresight modeling and many other tools that were used over five years plus years to develop them after and still before the millennium development goals had ended. And not only this historical precedence, but it is a global new operating model that we have never ever seen before. It's a new global economy it's a new global way of industry infrastructure new global way of gender equality, no poverty, zero hunger, an on and on. But just a tweak or a little modification in business as usual, where we say okay we do some renewables and we do this, it is a total new operating system. It does not mean that borders nations cultures beliefs need to disappear. What it does mean is that we as a world, every nation needs to adopt a higher standard of a global operating system. We need to build and and promise to never go below that again because that's the infrastructure that protects us all for the future. And, and I believe that that's what you guys as my climate and you as an individual and your thoughts and the way you act and live in that that you're working towards to make sure that we set the bar high, that we achieve those goals and plans and that we really fill in all the gaps of the Paris agreement fill in all the gaps that are not being addressed. And this is a big, not a, well, I guess it is it is a big problem that you guys are kind of to educate people with but also to address because we need every individual on board we need every individual to play a part in this. And I think you have a strong message around that that I would like to hear, not only if you agree, if that's the plan for the future, but what are some other things that we need to be doing each one of us every country every individual to make sure that we fill those gaps and we we reach it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so first of all really this, I think it's, it's, it's very important to say we all are responsible individuals, companies, other players within our economy, and also governments, politicians, etc. And I think one of the worst things which could happen is that the people in the economy are saying, okay, yeah, we know we understand it, but the governments, the politicians have to deliver first that the individuals say, okay, hey, we are so small. The responsibility is with the economy. So all these kind of pushing the responsibility away. So this is one of the world things I think which could happen because we need to have all the players, all the organizations, institutions, companies, corporations whatsoever. All individuals we have to stay, we are in the same boat and we, every one of us has the responsibility to react because yeah we have a fantastic framework with the Paris Agreement with the SDGs. And there are strong targets. And there are also measures on the way and there's also budget spoken already. But it depends on us. It depends on us. But just focusing on the Paris Agreement and on the targets. We have the right target set, but are we, and maybe you're focusing in the right direction, but not fast enough, but far not fast enough. So with all the measures already taken and with all the commitments given, we won't reach our goals. We have a gap in emissions. We are still emitting too much, way too much. We have a gap in terms of budget. We have spoken out a lot of budget, but it's not enough. We need additional contributions to turn our global economy and especially to help people in developing countries. And then finally we have also a timing gap. So we started, we started with this, but we lost time. We lost too much time. So there are three gaps, the financial gap, the timing gap and the emissions gap. And this is where each and everyone could help or should help because we can do more. We can do more than let's say it's written down in the Paris Agreement. We can think about our own CO2 footprint. What do we do? How can we avoid CO2 emissions? So you take, how many choices do you take every day in your private life and in your business life? Hundreds, hundreds. And you have alternatives. And it's pretty, pretty simple questions. How do I commute to the office? Do I need to have my own car? Can I take public transport? Or is it maybe a great alternative for me here living in Zurich to go with my bike? And each of these alternatives has an impact on the climate and the impact for the climate with the commuting by car is much higher than do it by the bike. And also for me, for my house, for my well-being, it's a fantastic alternative. The same is with food. The same is with consumption, all this kind of stuff. So we have many, many alternatives and we need to know about it. And if we have the knowledge, if we know about the impact, we can take the more climate-friendly decisions and avoid CO2 emissions. Great. So this is one important step for each and everyone. Secondly, so if you run your business, so you are causing CO2 emissions. No matter what you do, if you're producing company or servicing company, no, you're causing CO2 emissions. But I think you will have many, many opportunities to reduce your CO2 footprint. Maybe not to zero, but you can reduce it. You can think about your energy conjunctions. You said supply chains, very, very relevant topic. And also, due to the coronavirus, we have to rethink our supply chains. So there are massive opportunities to reduce CO2 footprints in the economy. So we can avoid, we can reduce. But finally, what we have to do is we have to implement the polluters pay principle and we have to put a price on CO2 emissions. And with the framework of Paris Agreement, we have a very good starting point, but we have to put a price on CO2 emissions. And what can we do with the money? Okay. So first, it's not that simple like as we treat wastewater, as we treat garbage. So we take the money and then we work on recycling and creating energy or whatsoever. What we can do is we can, we can set up financial instruments for more innovation, for more climate friendly innovation. But on the other hand, we can use these money and set up projects which will save CO2 emissions, which will, which reduce CO2 footprints or which sequester CO2 out of the atmosphere. So refrostation projects. We can use this money and we have all the tools and tools in place. We can measure the impact. And so we could establish a very, very good system. And so with the, with the responsibility of the individuals, of the companies, with the avoidance, with the reduction of CO2 emissions. And with putting a price on carbon, with the polluters pay principle, with the system, with the mechanism of offsetting, we can help filling these three gaps, the financial gap, the emissions gap and the timing gap. So we, we have discussed this before and I know you, you guys at my climate work on this. I consult 21 different airline companies that are, are I advise and consult with that are on this transformation. There's a thing called Corsia and there's some other rules that came into law in Switzerland around carbon offsetting and carbon emissions. January 2019, thanks to your help and letting me know more about what's going on in this industry. I'm going to put some things into place that as of January 2019 some some regulation standards and it seemed to me in the beginning was really voluntary. But there are some things really moving forward and that for air travel and businesses that are really important that I would like you to give us some insight on. Another fabulous thing that happened after I got done with with Davos was the Boma event in Paris I did a Boma event and it was at the same time. It was, it was around the same time that Delta Airlines on Valentine's Day launched that as of March 1, 2020, they were going to go carbon neutral and do offsetting and do innovations and do all sorts of other things. Whereas it was before it was just kind of an add on to your ticket you could purchase some credits and things but now the entire company was going that so there's were already some real steps in the right direction Microsoft made a big pledge on things. So I want you to kind of get us up to speed educate us a little bit about that if it's positive and it's hopeful for you. And so that we can understand it better. And then I, then I have a, maybe I want to play devil's advocate and throw something else in the mix a kind of a question about that after you, you get us up to speed on on educating us because I've had some my own thoughts about that as well. Yeah, very good. Okay, then, I think I will make the task for you a bit, bit, bit easier. And so I have to, I have to say after a minute. I think these are very, very positive things happening right now. So, first on, let's, let's, let's, let's touch on cross here so cross here what does it mean so if I'm not mistaken, it means carbon offsetting and reduction scheme of international aviation or production industry and not quite sure about the concrete wording. So what does it mean, from my perspective, it is the first global scheme for whole industry, which is setting targets for CO2 reductions of the operations. And on the other side, which gives the obligation to, to calculate the CO2 footprint and to offset. So cause is claiming a carbon neutral growth of the industry. So, yeah, it's carbon neutral growth. It's not carbon neutrality of the whole industry. So still, I think 1 billion tons of CO2 that was the estimation in 2019 will not be offset. But the growth, the annual growth will be offset. Also, I think they agreed on a reduction of 20 or 25% of CO2 footprint, which is good, but which will reached mostly due to technical innovation, which will happen anyway. So cause here was like, like many other international agreements, you find hundreds of things you can criticize. The same is with with the engagements of Delta Airlines, or with EasyJet, or with the pledges of Microsoft, you can always ask, can you do more? Of course, would be an easy one to do more. Can you do it better? Yeah, most likely you can do it better. But, and this is why I consider this as a positive thing. This is a very good starting point. And it is an agreement. And can you imagine any other industry where all relevant players agree on global commitments? Difficult. It's like like the Paris Agreement, an international binding global agreement with more than 180 countries in times like these. Sounds a bit weird for me, but it has happened. So, and this is the same as cause here, and also the same with the pledges. And the good thing is, this is raising the awareness of the people outside and of the consumers, and they won't forget. So if, let's say, Delta, Ellen would say, Okay, now we are facing, we are very, very serious trouble. And so we cannot do this. We won't become climate neutral. The customers, they won't forget. They won't forget. So it's also for, especially for the aviation industry, it's kind of a survival strategy to do so. So that's the reason why I consider this as a positive thing. And I'm pretty sure that they will develop, and that they will become more strict, and that they will also set more ambitious goals. I totally agree. And what most people don't know, and I mean, we have a little bit more education and awareness because we really try to try to figure out and understand this is that that this Corsia stand, you know, you said carbon offsetting the international aviation scheme for international aviation. It actually comes from a couple organizations. And this is one that most people don't know. The International Civil Aviation Organization is a United Nations specialized agency established in 1944 specifically thinking about the governance, carbon emissions, safety in conjunction with the International Air Transportation Association. So Iota, there are over 290 different airlines, more than 82% of all air traffic in the world that belong to these organizations that are aware of this, that have been working on it. Yes, we've been flight shamed to death. Yes, you know, they're the bad guys, we're always quick to point fingers. But it's a very complex and multifaceted problem. It's not just the airlines, it's the airports, it's the way they get the fuels, it's the way it's structured. How that whole airplane manufacturing and and productions where they buy the planes what they can buy and how that whole industry is evolving and doing. I believe, honestly, by 2024 by 2026, we are going to see things in air travel that we've never experienced or seen before. We're going to see innovation, especially around hydrogen kerosene jet fuel that's produced without greenhouse gas emissions and also in the use of that is is a much better cleaner fuel that also does along with many other innovations that we really need. Hopefully electrical flight and things. There's a lot of hurdles to be made in that that will change this industry to go back to what maybe maybe just because because I absolutely agree and I think we will see huge sustainable development within the within the aviation industry and this will happen. Because of course here because it's like the same thought like the same mechanism with the offsetting. So you put a price on carbon. So you're raising money. Money to innovate money which you don't have to budget within your ordinary business process where you really can question should we do innovation and more comfortable flying or should we do innovation in more sustainability. You have money spoken for more innovation, more sustainable innovation and this innovation. So we have innovative capacities globally. We have so much knowledge about energy, energy consumption about clean clean energy clean clean fuels all this kind of stuff. So with these additional budget opportunities we have. I think it would be so surprised if you won't see massive innovation within the next years. So will the will the whole innovation with the whole industry, the aviation industry become climate neutral in 10 years I strongly doubt. But I think they will reduce the footprint and then I think we will come back to the situation we had because the idea behind this United Nations bodies were to bring the world closer together. That's why they focused on aviation and that was it's still the reason why they hadn't to pay tax for the carousel because they want to have these these global interchange between people bring in people together and yes you can travel from Europe to the to the North America, South America by ship but you can go easily with the plane and you will have cultural exchange and especially in other parts of the world in Africa in China and so this does so much with your own personal horizon. So I won't blame people for taking taking our plane. Why should I, and I'm really looking forward to see this whole industry this whole way of transportation becoming more climate neutral in the future. I know for a fact that will, and I think you'll be really surprised how quickly it'll go. I don't know if you. I'm big into techno lust and have this really this vision of the science fiction and space. I grew up on Star Trek and so I'm big, I mean, that we can reach those things and do those things. But if you would ask me 10 years ago, you know, would we be doing the things that we are in space now that we would have autonomous electrical vehicles on on Audubon, you know, I'd say no way they couldn't fathom it because humanity really has a problem. Understanding or predict in the future we don't understand the exponential function and a lot of people are waiting for the future to happen to them they're waiting for someone else to create the future for them and and the more people we have creating the future. The more we realize the exponential function and reach it even quicker we have more teams and critical mass of people moving in that direction. The renewable energy transition with solar and wind really has an exponential growth on how that's been implemented the price point has been drawn down. Same with electrical vehicles and on and on we misjudge technology in the future and how quickly that works once we have that critical mass of people raising awareness to get us there so we can just this just like this pandemic we can turn on a dime we can turn on a penny. And and make some quick changes in the way we act the way we do things as well. The other thing and I kind of just wanted to touch upon it because you know you mentioned that about going on ships or flight shaming and things like that out of out of all the airlines the the entire transportation industry not just airplanes is is actually not the biggest emitter it is a problem, but it is not the biggest emitter if you were to look at emissions in the form of a country actual actually agriculture is the fourth biggest emitter of emissions. When we look at all the facets of not only animal production not only on methane emissions not only on food waste which creates methane as well, not only on transportation and logistics of that food on and on. It is the biggest emitter. And that's why when you say everybody can do something about it I'm 100% behind you because we all eat I like to eat three times a day I like to drink like crazy and it's my energy sources what regulates my body heat and and keeps my engine running so to say, and so it's something that each and every one of us can do it's our energy source and that's the biggest one of the biggest impacts as well which also reduces our footprint which also reduces and helps the planet and as a drawdown factor and things. I just wanted to touch on those because that's something that you mentioned but my devil's advocate thing. Now, as something I've got to throw in there and I because I want to hear your response and and your thoughts and feelings on it. Carbon pricing carbon schemes. I use them I use my climate also use to two other companies and I threw one of my companies I try to do offsetting as well as as capturing on some things that I do. Are you seeing companies or governments or countries whoever do that with you guys. Purchasing these credits or doing this offsetting just for the for the actions or for the like whether they're doing a flight or hosting an event. You guys provided a certificate for this food event that I did in in Lucerne in Switzerland. Are you seeing companies just buying these specifically for those events or are you seeing saying, as a company, we've had this many admissions because we've been in business for 10 years 15 years, and we actually want to make sure that we put into carbon offsetting for all those emissions we've already admitted, because it's not just good enough to start now, because we have 1020 to since since 1970s emissions that companies and people have done in the past that still don't balance out where we are today. And so, so my, my real my real question is, is, is, we need to go into a direction that's not just buying the credits for now, but a step in cleaning up what we've already admitted in the past. And it kind of ties into what you've heard me say many times before in my talks and we've discussed that before is, even if the entire world were to stop today and reverse their direction and go in zero emission emitting way. It would not be enough to reduce the warming of our planet because all those emissions and those pollutions are still here continuing to warm our planet from the past years from, you know, 1970s to today even further are still warming our planet. So we actually need to leave the planet better. We found it and do a positive capturing and cleanup in many ways. And so I kind of want to ask you that question what your thoughts and feelings and, and if you're seeing that and how do we incentivize or get people to do that extra step beyond. Yeah. So, so really this the thought of cleaning all up, taking on responsibility for the historical CO2 emissions of a company. I think they're just very, very few companies moving that far. So I heard about the pledge. I think this is the Microsoft pledge. They say, okay, yeah, we also want to take on responsibility for the historical emissions. And there are maybe also some very focused, but most of the time very young brands from Switzerland from Europe have also the same mindset. So either if they want to take on responsibility for the historical emissions or if they become want to become climate positive saying, okay, we have our CO2 footprint and we offset them and we put 100% offsetting on top. And so we double let's say our CO2 footprint in terms in terms of offsetting. Yeah, you have some of these companies smaller smaller companies more innovative companies with a sustainable mindset. You have this but to speak honestly, for most of the companies, they are taking smaller steps because it is really difficult for let's say traditional companies to turn their business model completely. These traditional companies, most of them let's say have let's say that companies patron or their family own since three or four generations they have a more sustainable mindset. Usually, but they also feel a deep responsibility for their employees. And also they have a business process production processes in place for more than 50 years, things like that. So they want to do smallest smaller steps they say it has to be doable and it has to be affordable. For other companies, let's say stock listed companies, there's also is even more difficult, because you have to deliver your quarterly results and if you say we we turn the page completely. Let's say, let's say your shareholder, will they give you kudos for this. Or will they say, hmm, it's difficult for me I invested my money this is my pension funds all this kind of stuff. So it's, it's, it's difficult for them to do this large step. And I totally agree that that is fantastic fantastic this should be the target to also to clean up what we left behind and not just to start right now and say okay what what what was in the past was in the past. But I think it's really important to start with the first steps. If you decide, the first step always is to calculate your CO2 footprint to do a copper carbon footprint to do a product. So to get to get to get an impression about the impact you have on climate. This is the first thing you cannot manage what you have measured. This is this is always the first step. And then yeah, start with a specific area of your business. And even if it's just your corporate events. It's good to start with this, but be very honest in your communication. You cannot so we are the greenest company on the world. By just offsetting your corporate demands this won't work this won't work for for the for the for the public opinion, also for your customers, they will decode this. But if you say yeah, we see the problem we have addressed a problem. We start with first steps and we learn about it, and we want to become better every year every month every day, then it is fine. So that's what we have experienced in the last 10 years or in the 20 years we are in we are in business since the foundation of our organization is companies start first, and they then receive positive results. And then they want to go further. To today I worked on on a media release on a long term partner of our organization, we had a couple of projects with them in the past in the educational sector, and also in in product related carbon footprinting and also giving advice to their consumers. And now finally, after 10 years, they decide, yeah, okay. The next step is to fully offset our CO2 footprint. Great. It is its development after 10 years. And I won't blame them in any way to say yeah okay but this is by way way not enough. You're in business for more than 3040 years and you have to all to think about this. I hope. For many, for many of these, these companies, I'm pretty sure that it will happen that they see, okay, yeah, we will do this one of the next steps. Maybe not the first next step, but they will, I think, many people will get these mindset, but as of the moment, you have kind of forums. I don't believe in that one company you mentioned or any others that you know of that because of that time that they've done offsetting or of events or through their experience with you or others that they realize it's actually a better business model and it actually, if they change not only that but also their business model to be more resilient, more sustainable, that it's actually a positive for their entire organization, their business that sustains them for future generations and resources. And not only is it the right thing to do, but it's a better business model for operations profits and the way moving forward, something that can sustain itself over time. And that that kind of light goes on or through that experience, then they say, no, this is how we do it. This is a core fundamental pillar of our business that we want to have. Have you seen that or do you think that's the transition or do you have you seen anything else that you maybe could describe? We have seen that and absolutely, I think this will be a path for the transition, because many companies, they not only do offsetting for the sake of doing something good for the climate or the environment. So they want also know about the costs and the impact of their business. And you have many, many things in your cost sheets, in your company, but I think to think about environmental costs. This is a huge step for many companies and there were some of our partners and also some companies I know about said, okay, if we think about CO2 emissions, let's say as a cost factor. And if we give it a price, then we automatically search for alternatives. And most of the time you find alternatives, which are not only better for for the climate or for the environment, but also makes your business processes a lot easier. And which gives you also very good stories to tell to your customers to say, hey, we changed our processes. We are more climate friendly right now, but we are on the same. And at the same time, we are smarter and more innovative. So and then then it's no longer costs, then it's also it creates profit. And we see this so there's there's there's a nice example here from from in Switzerland from the Negro, which is the biggest chain of grocery stores here in Switzerland, or yet the biggest one. But also they have one competitor call. They do quite quite the same also in partnership with us. So what they did, they did internal carbon pricing. And they set themselves the targets. Okay, we want to get rid of flying in a grocery, especially food from other countries. So we want to do we want to face this out until 2025. So what do they do, they calculate the carbon footprint from these from this air freight. And they give it a price and a pretty considerable high price. But they that the money states within the company and they invested in the innovative products within the supply chain. So for instance, coming back for food, they say, okay, we have a considerable amount of CO2 emissions coming from flying in, especially beef from Southern America. Can we establish a sustainable production of meat here in Europe. Yeah, and they found ideas and they do the financing of these ideas through these internal carbon fund. And I think this is a very good example. You see, okay, maybe your operations will get better. And also your you see two footprint gets lower. Yeah, you make my nose tickle because we're talking in the same language. So you're talking about me gross you're talking about meat. I know the company that they invested in it's called the left farms and they're a company out of Israel and I actually sit on their sustainable advisory board. Me gross actually is one of the biggest investors in them to bring cellular agriculture and sustainable meats cultivated meats in Germany they call it in vitro flash. I don't like that term. I don't like that term it sounds too much like in vitro artificial examination of babies but it's a clean meat that is healthy and good and it can be produced locally on a small scale so I like those type of innovations and thinking of how can we shorten our supply chains how can we bring things locally and how we can produce in a way that's more efficient and better for human health and environment. Along that same lines of what you just said and thank you for answering that question on that transition that companies make. During this pause in this reset. It's really such a thing that all those companies that before even last year and even further before that divested from fossil fuels divested their investments in their portfolios their business models to not only the sustainable development goals but to what we call ESG environmental social governance. All those companies weathered this time of the pandemic where a lot of companies were laying off people closing their doors. They weathered it a lot better than their counterparts and so basically the question is always oh it's costly is it truly a better business model will we have our profits in return will we be able to still please our shareholders. Only to answer this question all we have to do is look towards the New York Stock Exchange the NASDAQ the S&P 500 the S&P Global the stocks Europe 600 benchmark. The caller capital the Nikki index Goldman Sachs and and HSBC research reports during the first first quarter of this year and all of them. All of these sustainable index funds lost less than their conventional index funds seven out of 10 equity funds that are ESG divested are in the top house of the Morningstar categories and that is 24 out of 26 environmental social and governance tilted indexes so what y'all say put your mouth where your money is put your business plan where the money is and those people who did those divestments they're actually weathered the storm very good and they were in such a position because of thinking about environmental social governance and sustainable development that they could help others in need they could create respirators and masks. They could deliver food they could do advising and digital products to help us to get through this to create vaccines and do many other things that are very positive and as you also said in the beginning. They're going to bounce back and not only take bigger shares of the market but they're going to weather very well as we go into as the the world economic form is said this great reset. I know I know you've thought about this before many different ways and as a company you're you're addressing it, but I really want to know and I would even like to know in the short term of 2030 what's the future. So yeah. It's good. Okay, so yeah, I think we set the targets with that the targets for the future. So this is the great thing about the SDGs. 178 SDGs and 180 goals to reach. So we set the goal so the direction we know the direction we also know the direction in terms of fighting climate change. So and we also we have to measure ourselves, our economies our societies against these goals. So and I have a background in sports, played football all my life. And I learned to accept, maybe to lose a match to lose a game, but I still hate it. And I think the same is for us, especially because there is so much at stake. And we losing not meeting goals is not an option. Maybe not meeting them until 2030 to 100%. But at least to more than 90%. This is really really our responsibility. And look at looking right now at what is happening right now. So we have all the knowledge. We have at least in many, many countries, and maybe one more country will join by end of the year beginning next year. We have the political will in all those countries. We have the innovative and also digital digital capacities. We have also let's say the awareness. What the people in the countries. So we are in a very, from this point, we have in a very, very good position. We don't have any real opponent. Maybe ourself or laziness or our lack of innovative thinking. But all I think from these starting points, we have the best team on the on the pitch. I think we should be able to win the game. And because if you see what this really impressed me a lot when I saw first, I think when I when I listened first to your, or at the first time to, to your input to you giving a speech is what is this for a world. If you reach the goal of the SDGs, how will this look like. This is absolutely a world. I want my children to live in and I want to have my grandchildren to live in. So we have such a such an attractive goal is set to go and we have a very good team on the pitch. So I am positive. I see all the challenges, but I think the world will be a better place in 2030 than it is today. What you mentioned there was the sustainable development goal manifesto that I wrote, which what that is is it's a vision of what the future will look like December 2030 if we achieve all the goals but but more so than that. So people don't understand it'll provide us, even if we reach them at 90% provide us with a sustainable infrastructure, which will give us more security and more solid ground to spring board off into resilience that's not going to solve all our problems but it's going to put us in a lot better place in the future. It's going to help us with the warming. And it's really at that point, it will already be well in this exponential function that the next achievements the next goals will be really reachable because we already have shifted that paradigm will have already set a global operating system to achieve that and I know that would be a better future so thank you for that analogy and and I'm not quite a big of a sports fan as and as you I also like to play sports and do things but that's a that's always a nice analogy so thank you very much for that. If you can provide me and my listeners with a sustainable takeaway a tool or something that would empower them as innovators as entrepreneurs as authors as people listening with a tool that would help them to reach 2030 but also maybe to make their lives better or some kind of a word of wisdom from you or my climate that if you had the opportunity to speak to everybody individually that you could somehow give them a sustainable takeaway or empowerment that would make their life better and help them. What I feel is that I have an impact that I could have an impact and that I do influence the people next to me, the community, the nature that I have an impact on this and also it turns out like the chaotic terror you know with the butterfly. So this could also have an impact far away and globally impact. So I think each and every one of us has this and I think I try to be aware of this and also try to to match everything I do and all the decisions I take against these impact. And so hopefully most of my decisions or my lifestyle will be climate climate friendly, better for the environment but also better for my community. I'm not 100% perfect. Okay, but I think I feel kind of a responsibility and not only a responsibility for the people next to me. And so if you think if you have this mindset of your own impact that you have an impact that you don't think I'm so small, I'm lonely, I'm alone, I cannot do anything. There are other people, organizations, governments, they have to do this for me. But if you don't think that way if you say okay I have an impact and I can influence people, I can inspire people. This is extremely important because anybody could influence other people. And this is like like a snowball turning out to be an avalanche. And this is where I strongly believe in it. So if you ask for a concrete tool, I would say take a simple one which already exists. Calculate your impact on the climate. Calculate and think about your footprint, what are these CO2 emissions I'm causing, but not only CO2 emissions, you can also think about your use of water and other resources for this. Think about this footprint impact, but also think about your handprint. What is my positive impact on the society, on the climate? It's very, very interesting to think about from a corporate perspective. The products I sell, the solutions I deliver, do they have maybe a positive impact on the climate? Telecommunications technology? Will they help me, let's say, to reduce business travel worldwide? Because the solutions are so good, so comfortable. We all felt this during the corona pandemic. The crisis situation during the lockdown. Hey, video conferencing, it works. It's fine. Yeah, and I still like to meet people in person, but this works. And there is no reason anyway to fly in in the morning from Zurich to London to fly back in the evening for a census meeting. That you can do on a video conference and then just meet one time and really enjoy this time together, but use these kind of tools. So this is impact. This is positive impact. But really to think about and to calculate this, this is the important tool. So get aware of your impact. The positive one. And also let's say the negative one and try to think about how can you turn this, how can you use this. Thank you so much, Kai. I am done. We're actually gone an hour and a half. So our podcast is limited in time. And I tell you, it's always a pleasure to speak with you to speak at your events to be around you. And the times we've seen each other were very nice and I hope we have many more in the future. And as always, I'm only a call away so just make sure you stay in touch and keep keep me and my listeners up to date on the things you're working on and my climate as well. Thank you very much for being on the show. And unless you have any other words of wisdom that you would like to depart before we say goodbye. Now is your chance. I just want to say thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the for this conversation. It's, it's like like anytime. I meet you so I always learn your it's it's a situation. I was talking about before you and you're inspiring me. And this this is great because I will now go back to my to my office desk do all my tasks, but I have a couple of new ideas in mind and also I have a positive feeling. So thank you for forgiving me this feeling and to for all for all these inspirations I got from your speeches but also from the from the dialogues we had so thank you so much and yeah. Thank you also that you try to inspire all the listeners and all the people watching this on YouTube I hope many people will do and I hope that you set the seat that all the that all these people will think about their impact. That warms my heart thank you so much for saying that and I do it gladly and I know it's the right thing to do. I feel it. I can see the fruits of planning those seeds and, and especially from the events that we've been doing together and we've been involved in especially you form Switzerland and and and the who's and other events that they're the feelings the people's lives that have been touched the changes that you see and the improvements of our world and environment are just fabulous to see so I thank you very much. Kai and you have a wonderful day take care and we'll talk soon. Up to you soon, Mark. Bye. Thanks for watching.