 Good afternoon! Thanks everyone. Thanks for joining us this afternoon. I'd like to begin by acknowledging and celebrating the first Australians on who's traditional lands we meet today and pay my respects to Elders past, present and emerging. For us today at ANU, we're gathering on the ancestral lands of the Nannaawatle and the Gambri people. After Earth and environmental sciences this is particularly important. In our national consultation for the planet research data commons, indigenous data management, governance and recognition was consistently ranked as a key data challenge across our research infrastructures. This underlines the importance of understanding and recognising the environmental management practices and knowledge that has been used to stay careful and manage our environment. I am Rossi Hicks, CEO of the Australian Research Data Commons ARDC. The ARDC has been enabled by the Federal Government's National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Strategy or Yuunkris. Our mission is to accelerate research and innovation bydd o gweithio gweithio ymgyrchu, analisiad ac ymgweld cymaint rydyn ni. Welcom yw y ffordd ar y Llyfrgell Argynchynedd Gwybodaeth, ac ydych chi'n ddwy o'r ddweud ein gweithio'r ddweud yw ychydig yw yw hwnnw i ddyn nhw'n ddyn ni wedi'r llwyddiad i gweithio a drwy ffyrddol i gweithio'r ddyn ni i gweithio'l ddyn nhw i gweithio'r ddyn nhw i gweithio i gweithio'r ddyn nhw i gweithio. It's a leadership forum that intersects with the ARDC strategy focusing our expertise and our capability into thematic areas. The Planet Research Data Commons provides national scale data infrastructure for Earth and environmental research and decision making and builds upon ARDC's previous work in earth and environmental related research data infrastructure. The planet RDC brings together research, government and industry to develop systems and processes that make data more available, speed the development of analytics and models to understand the environment and address some of the most complex, interconnected and integrated challenges facing society. I looked at my notes. I am going off script here. This is a really long list that they've given me. ac ydy'r gael. Y ddweud cydnogaeth, cyfrifolig ac biosegur, y gweithio cyfnod yng Nghymru ac y gweithio Llandlwys Gweithio Llandlwys Cyfrifolig gyda'r newyddol, Cyfrifolig yn ei ddweudwyr ac argyrchu'r llwyddiad yng Nghymru, Llyfr� i'r llwyddiad felly gyda'r sylwyddiad. Mae'n rhaid i'r llwyddiad. Ac rydyn ni'n ddweud – ac yn gorfod ddidw期it hyn yn canbra as we have really notable national environmental infrastructure and departments, including the recently announced environment information Australia, in the Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water, led by one of our panel members, Jane Corom. Thank you, Jane, for joining us. Ie, mae Cambra cyhoedd oedd o'r mawr amgylchedd ymddangos, mewn gwirionedd Llywodraeth Llywodraeth, ymddangos ymddangos ymddangos ymddangos, ymddangos NRI, Cyro, Geosciences Australia. I'n hoffi i gweithio i'r NCI, wrth gwaith Paeniffrach yn cael ei ddweud yn ddod. i'n gweithio i chi. Rwy'n gweithio ar gyfer y rheswm ysgrifennu yw'r anhygoel ar y Cymru ac yw'r anhygoel ar y Cymru. Mae'r anhygoel yn ymgyrchon i gyfnoddau ysgrifennu. Yn ymgyrch yn cael ei gael ar gyfer y rheswm, ar gyfer y Gwfyrd ac ar y cyfrifenedd, yw'r anhygoel ar gyfer y llyfr o'r anhygoel. mae'r cydweithiau ar y cyfnodd y ddiweddol yno, i gydwch i ddweudio gweithio, gweithio, analiteg, y ddweudol, i gael ei ddweudio i gydweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio a'r ddweudio'r gweithio'r ddweudio'r gweithio'r gweithio, i ddweudio'n gweithio a'r gweithio. Yn ymlaen i'r gweithio, mae'n gwneud oedd Steven Dover'r ffosilatau. Steven yn amerytus Professor i'r Amhlydd ar yr A&U y Ffennr School of Environment and Society. He's also a member of the ARDC's Research and Technology Advisory Committee and so I am personally deeply grateful to Stephen for his contributions over the last couple of years on that committee which has truly, Stephen, been one of the very best. And he brings to that his expertise in environmental management in policy, research and leadership. He's an ecologist and a resource manager before joining ANU where he was an inaugural ANU Public Policy Fellow. He's also a fellow of the Academy of the Social Sciences in Australia and a senior associate with IFA. So, I'm very grateful both to Stephen and to all of our panellists and I will now hand over. Thank you very much. Thanks very much Rosie. I'm a qualitative social scientist so what am I doing here? I'd reflect the acknowledgement of country and point out that we're belatedly in a time of some encouraging activity of actually incorporating First Nations knowledge data wisdom into our environmental information space. I'll have a few introductory comments but first I'll introduce our panel who I think span the continuum of what we're here to talk about today very well from the production of data and insights from empirical research through frameworks and protocols for organising research, organising sharing data to the actual possibly we hope use of it in both public and private and community decision making. In order of their appearance, I'm sure you might have seen Richard occasionally visiting Sydney not a wetland somewhere out west from the director of the Centre for Ecosystem Science and University of New South Wales Richard Kingsford is a river ecologist and conservation biologist who's probably seen more birds than anyone all of us put together after quite a career with the New South Wales government is now very much full time active researcher with a great deal of influence and I think media profile. Michael Vardon from ANU from sometimes from my own school, the Fenner School is a very well known environmental accounting researcher and well versed in the collection of data account compilation and indicators. He led the Centre for Environmental Stats at the ABS for some time and has advised such bodies as the Bureau of Met, the UN World Bank and the IMF. Riley Galway is director biodiversity and nature positive leader at Oricon with a long 25 years experience in biodiversity policy and data. Carly's passionate about designing and building practice that leads to environmental outcomes, positive outcomes and at Oricon she ensures the design engineering and advisory companies team of ecologists to have the skills for now and into the future and lead services around nature positive strategies and Jane Corm, who is, how long have you been in this post? I'm just beginning my third week. Three weeks into being head of environment information Australia within the federal department has a very long career and organisational leader in environmental sciences director of CSR's land and water business unit, chief executive officer of the national measurement Institute acting chief scientist Geoscience Australia with a great deal of experience across this. So very much a freshly minted presence in this particular or refresh presence in this particular space. So I think it's really dynamic time in Australia for environmental information and data apart from the ARDC's planet stream of work which is led by Amish here at the front who I will call on to possibly say more of that. We have the emergence of environment information Australia rapid development around the world of the system and environmental economic accounts and cognate frameworks and explosion of data availability and capacities really is a buzz. We also have excellent research capacities and I'm a qualitative but I can do some analysis and if you looked at our excellence in research Australia results and take the old old codes of environmental science and management and ecological applications and say on the basis of quantity how many of Australia's universities could muster a submission and how many of them got five rankings guess who comes out on top. It's environmental research in Australia only challenged by sports science and nursing and allied health. Forget physics yet chemistry economics. We are actually incredibly good we punch very much above our weight in that space because we've got fascinating environments. So it is very exciting but I've been around long enough to have a small amount of cynicism. Those who know me and see me in the cafe once a week know that I would be surprised by that but you know the promise 1990 survey of land degradation to follow the 75 to 77 one never happened. We had a first national water account study in 1975. We'd actually had one in 63 but they forgotten. In 1993 at the first advisory committee meeting for the first state of environment report I said what about the one we had in 86 and 87 and everyone had forgotten it. Land and water resources audit came and went that was world leading at the time. The critical input of long-term ecological research well we don't have enough and what we do have runs on the smell of an oily rag and some researchers are still actually reluctant to share their data or even where their star pickets are and ARC funding for environmental research has fallen over the last decade and we've had some pretty good things like the energy are and are at DC and LWA to get shut down and then realise we missed them and we're still struggling to align those timescales and motivations of researchers and data users and data custodians. I think what we have missed in the past are overarching organisation and curatorial frameworks and indeed cultural frameworks within which we can connect and collaborate. So to me CIA, the ARDC, Environment Information Australia and others have the promise of that kind of broader infrastructure where we can keep at it and not let things slip as much as we have in the past. So now for our four excellent panellists and for those online please don't forget your Q&A tab which has been monitored by Keith who I've lost sight of but I'm sure he's going to monitor it, he will and we will go through till three o'clock then have a short break so that you can refine your most difficult and challenging question and then come back for a good three quarters of an hour of Q&A. So Richard. Thank you very much Stephen and thank you Rosie and I'd like to acknowledge and pay my respects to First Nations people here in Canberra and all over those places that I roam out there. As Stephen said I'm an ecologist and I'm very happy to be here and talk about some of the challenges in terms of data collection, management analysis and all the things that we do as ecologists. I'm really motivated by I guess collecting data to impact on significant policy and management decisions particularly in relation to where we see ourselves going in the future in Australia and how we restore some of the landscapes that we need to focus on. I am as Stephen mentioned I have counted the odd bird every now and again and in fact I've been leading probably one of the largest wildlife surveys in the world that covers a third of this continent and we've been doing that survey for this will be our 41st year every October and November we cover the eastern side of Australia. Every year we do, I think we've worked out it's 3,000 kilometres short of around the world trip in a small aeroplane at 50 metres counting 50 odd species of water birds. Now I guess that's important, long term data is really critical in our highly variable system and using that data to understand what the natural variations are and then what are the anthropogenic impacts and then how does that then tie into policy and management I think is some of the big challenges. In oncology we increasingly talk now about big data, I'm across big data, one of the other projects I lead is a reintroduction project of locally extinct mammals up into north-western New South Wales which is called Wild Deserts and we partner with New South Wales National Parks. We've got 60,000 camera trap images coming in every month and we can't deal with them because nobody's developed the algorithms that we need to identify the different animals, not to mention how do we trap cats and individual cats and then actually do something about them in real time. Then we use a lot of drone data, we're using drone data to count water bird numbers with AI, we're increasingly thinking about how drone data is useful for tracking vegetation at scale and linking that to satellite imagery and then of course you know there's remote sensing which is one of our big challenges. I'm part of a team that's a global initiative to look at how do we categorise ecosystems around the world and over the last five years about 40 scientists have been working on a classification of the world's ecosystems and that was published in nature last year the Global Ecosystem Typology. It's now been adopted as the IUCN standard under the Convention on Biological Diversity and that's going to register on a whole number of different ways in terms of how do we report on our ecosystems at jurisdictional and state levels and national levels up to global levels, how do we use that map layer which doesn't exist at the moment to do our environmental accounting and most importantly I guess in terms of all of this is how do we access, curate, make accessible to everybody transparently you know that spatially explicit data that is critical for making decisions in places over time but also across our nation and how does that inform what we're doing and lastly we're engaged with a really exciting initiative with the Nari Nari Tribal Council in terms of managing 80,000 hectares of the Murray-Darling Basin wetlands and they're trying to manage data, they're trying to manage accessibility, how do they access data, how do they even know who's doing stuff on their land and we're just starting to engage in that conversation about use of their data, how do they use that data to make good management decisions but also make sure that people coming to them will give them back that data so there's some interesting aspects that I know sort of front and centre of the future and how we manage those sorts of things. Thank you. Thank you I just have to set up my timer because I'm at a lectern and I can talk forever so I'll just make sure that I don't and Steve will too oops sorry I've lost my timer I've already wasted seconds okay look well thank you very much thank you Steve for the the introductions and to Rosie too from the ARDC for inviting us and to you the audience I'm just going to dive straight in I think and I'm going to talk to you mostly about the system of environmental economic accounting I'm going to do so using an example why am I doing this because the system of environmental accounting is the only international accounting standard in this space I'm going to come back to that because this is a very confused space with lots of different things going on and no one is really sure how it fits together okay we need to piece this together so so I'm going to start at the end we're asked to think about that and what we really need so I think what we need is direction at the moment for environmental accounting we're not quite sure what we're doing it for okay we have in the nature positive plan we're going to put it into the system we're going to put it into the state of the environment reporting yeah okay once every five years it gets a gig that's not what we need we already have a state of environment report this can do something different this is not just going to tell us that the environment is getting bad in a different way each time this will tell us how it's getting bad in a systematic way regularly not just that how it can fix it now accounting is a jigsaw puzzle takes lots of bits of data the framework think of it as the box jigsaw puzzle box this tells you where everything goes you open the box and there is a giant jumble of pieces and you don't know how to fit them together giant jumble of data direct from the environment many different sorts many different classifications if only everyone would use the global environment typology you know we can add it to the five or six Australian typologies if you already exist so will the real typology start up but that's one of the key challenges how do we get everyone on the same page how can we fit these bits of the jigsaw puzzle together so we need to know what we're fitting together for what we can certainly do state of the environment reporting I think we can do a lot more we'll certainly get to that shortly for that we need a process we need to know how we're going to get there for that we needed an infrastructure administrative infrastructure we've got the environment information Australia we've got all of the agencies Steve mentioned all of the stuff which Rosie mentioned we've got big data what we don't have is big information we need to sift it we need to put it together we need to understand it in a regular way we need to be able to interpret it which means we need to know what's a positive direction and what's a negative direction how to intervene so we then need to understand what we can actually do it's more than state of the environment reporting but we get information when you need it state of the environment reporting is a great textbook I recommend it to everybody but it's out of date usually before it's published because it's published at the discretion of the minister and the last minister decided we didn't need to see it for six months the bureau of the statistics produces quarterly national accounts going back to 1956 that's what we need time series which go a long way back they've used lots of different information methods data over time but the time series goes back that's what we're trying to do to get this curation how do we get things going forward so the next thing what accounting isn't and it's not about reducing everything to dollars you say accounting everyone thinks all we want is money okay well I do want money but the accounting's not all about the money there are five different sorts of the accounts I'd love to go into them three of them don't involve money and in fact most people never get to the valuation part okay we it's not all about money but then we get to our example what could we do okay so what could we do is put it into some sort of decision-making process which already exists the environment protection and biodiversity conservation act got it up on the screen I've got this typical policy cycle around the outside it's got information at its centre okay basic data gets drawn into accounts with this we did the box gum grassy woodlands critically endangered bunch of scientists decided it was endangered they got a threatened species committee to recommend it to the minister to be listed under the EP BC act tick done process working so far all the laws are triggered including a plan for its protection and anyone that wants has an impact on those laws has to apply for permission to have an impact okay what we didn't find it's good we've got we've ticked the administrative boxes we then did anyone implement the plan we went looking for information we've got no idea that it was implemented doesn't mean it wasn't doesn't mean that people didn't do anything but we can't track any of that information to any of the action plan okay problem we need to be able to track what was done where why how okay not only that you can't find the administrative decisions you cannot search that database by the species or ecosystem which triggered the act so if we want to go back and find all the offsets for the box gum grassy woodlands we have to manually go through all of those files okay so we didn't we used a bit of machine learning but that's a separate thing big data big learning monitoring no one monitored it to the best of our knowledge we monitored it sorry there's some site set up long-term monitoring at the fenner school some of that there was this remote sensing we had some of that we put it together the best thing we could tell that it was declining it was declining in some areas it was increasing in others why we're not really sure if we had proper accounts we would know if we had proper accounts we could have targeted the implementation we would have known where we could have saved the most for the least we could have known where we could have saved the most where it was needed most so all of that if we can pull information put it into a framework then we might be able to take do something with this and build it into the real world processes so Steve's been quietly pulling me there so i'll leave it with that what we need is direction we need processes and we need to get more understanding of how it's going to be used so thank you so good afternoon everyone so i'm here today to talk about how industry uses and displays data so collie Galway um i'm representing oricon and i'm the biodiversity and nature positive lead so first of all who's oricon uh it's a global environmental engineering consultancy firm of about 700 uh sorry of about 7 000 employees what do we do we build big stuff to make it simple we support many industries from the building industries they build big stadiums we build big roads big bridges train lines we go through big renewables big mining and we also plan big precincts so i'm taking data from a lot of different industry groups here but the two main areas of interest where i work with in the data space is of course the biodiversity and the nature positive so in the biodiversity space which most people here will be familiar with i have teams across australia that undertake a range of ecological surveys primarily for environmental assessments to enable their developments um this requires data collection data storage presentation of the results but ultimately this is to inform a regulatory decision on whether or not that development should go ahead now the presentation of data is critical um we need to make sure our regulators which we have in the room here um are confident with the data that we've presented and what we've done to increase that confidence is we've moved from the old-fashioned pdf you know those four five hundred six hundred page reports to digital reporting so why do we use digital reporting it's a way that enables us to link the test text where you're reading the story the map appears on the exact location you can zoom in you can zoom out you can pan out to see how close that national park is it takes you through tables you can interrogate the tables it does 3d mapping it does sliders which shows you how change will happen over time and we can add in temporal data so what this does it allows the regulator to interrogate that data and question specific areas that they may have concerns with in the nature positive space it's slightly different we work with our clients to help them transition from an economic decision making to a nature positive decision making so we work with them to understand what the impacts are on the environment and how they can address those impacts so again we do a lot of data collection we do a lot of collation a lot of storage and again presentation but the presentation in this case is quite different the presentation is digital right from the start and because it's quite new we're just going straight in at that level but what we're doing is the data there is slightly it's a different audience we're dealing with the audience there are not like our regulators that may have a massive amount of understanding of biodiversity we have board members of the companies we have the shareholders we have the interested community so we're presenting in some cases similar data but in a very very different format so for me my role not just about data it's working out capabilities what's the capabilities of my biodiversity and nature positive teams now and where are we going to have to move our capabilities in the future and one of the things that is at the forefront in my capability needs here is data and digital so for me the uplift is now we need to not only uplift within our oaracon but with our clients and with the parties that are involved around us the value for me in getting this right I'm representing consultancy time is money what can I say about that there is time to go and collect in the field we need it captured immediately in the quickest way we need it presented in the quickest way we need those more annual monitoring reports to be automated into dashboards also making the right decisions so for me that is really really critical the better the data the better the quality the better the presentation we will make the right decisions and we can address some of those bigger data questions like assessing cumulative impacts for me two biggest challenges that I see from where industry stands here is around the data the presentation opportunities are not thought about at the very early stage of data design presenting is something you do much later it's an afterthought and that is where we're running into a lot of problems the other fact is that many people here will know is that the data supply chain even within oaracon itself is siloed you have your data capture teams you have your GIS teams you have your digital teams and so how do we bring all those teams together to understand why are we collecting that data who is it for and how should it be presented to get the right decisions so for me when I ask the question research what do we need for us for digital reporting the tech is already there it's wonderful what's holding us back is our capability it's the culture it's us not actually embracing and using it so I look forward to some of the great questions coming through in the sessions to follow thank you thank you good afternoon everyone and thank you I'm very excited to be here I'm extremely excited to be leading environmental information Australia and as you know this is still early days for me for EIA and also for what is a relatively new department in the Australian government I too acknowledge my the traditional owners of these lands I also particularly acknowledge the first and continuing environmental scientists and knowledge holders and I pay my deep respects to their knowledge and their ongoing stewardship of our lands and waters and my own commitment to aligning and combining our knowledge systems and our environmental stewardship efforts so for me I am here representing EIA but I've been bumping around the system of environmental monitoring reporting from for long enough to have seen other analogous endeavors live and die so for me it's a very personal motivation to seize this moment in time and the alignment of government research private sectors in recognising that environmental data is critical to our business and the the value and synergy of sharing it and sharing our endeavors so for me this is a really special moment in time if we can get it right and connect across our sectors across resources across corporate sectors bringing then the higher end expertise of the research sector with the regulatory needs of government if we can get that right if we can connect that data across systems we can actually build something where the whole is so much greater than the sum of the parts for all the contributors and for society overall so this is a really important sort of personal agenda for me but also I think for everyone in this room it's a moment in time to do that when we do need a number of things we need first of all a sort of a mutual commitment to this endeavor a mutual commitment to a shared endeavor we need to be able to collaborate we need to be able to respect respectfully recognise that different sectors will have different needs and indeed different objectives in accessing data and make sure that we can share it in a way that's respectful of all sectors and I'm particularly mindful of First Nations in this space because if we're building a shared national environmental infrastructure it needs to be for and with all Australians. I believe that we really do need some national framework to help guide it and whilst EIA does not take necessarily priority in that framework I think environment information Australia has an important role in helping set some of the the basis for that framework. I think ultimately if we can position environmental data and environmental reporting in a way where it's actually usable in real time where it's accessible where it's interoperable so different data sets from different sectors can be combined and used then we can actually not only position not only reap the benefits for research and for users of data but we can actually start to reap the opportunities of high performance data high machine learning artificial intelligence but also we can tap into the deep on ground knowledge of citizen science and ideally working with First Nations people build something that's actually greater than western knowledge alone. So I guess in terms of my motivation having spent too many years now it's terrifying 35 years or so knocking on the door of policy from a science perspective trying to get the importance of data recognised. For me I think we are in a moment of time where that where data is recognised as being important the challenge is now as that research science all sectors providers of data we're struggling to know how to find it we're struggling to find know how to share it we're struggling to be able to put our finger on it in the right time and that's been the thing that's let us down I think right now in EIA and forgive the acronyms we do work in them a bit much environment information Australia we've got the opportunity under the nature positive plan of actually standing up data infrastructure that reports all the way up to Australian Government Treasury so recently there's the report of measuring what matters there's environmental indicators there that are that enable us to use our data our shared data assets to actually speak to the highest levels of government in the land and to actually be accountable to all of Australia so for me that's a very exciting point that we're at but we actually need to build momentum around that we need to actually make that enduring so we're aiming to legislate for the national environmental reporting we also need to make sure that collectively we are maintaining momentum around this because even where there are a change of leaders change of governments change of political initiatives and organizational initiatives if collectively we're keeping that ambition alive between us I believe we can actually maintain this national environmental capability that is going to mean that in future we can be in this we can hold the state of the environment in the spotlight and that's really important so I'm trying I'm trying to sort of win my way through the questions here I think for us in environment information Australia we're aiming to evolve from the kind of current state of play in environmental reporting which is largely retrospective reporting on trends based on pulling together whatever data we can moving that to underpinning with reporting with really sustained and rigorous systems of reporting like environmental economic accounts applied at the national scale like regular and state of the environment reporting and even a state of the environment dashboard now I'd love to wave magic wand and do that right now we're not going to be able to but over time my hope is that that's what we can do and it will put those the condition and trends of the environment in the spotlight as I say we've taken the first step in doing that in treasuries recent recent measuring what matters we have pilots for environmental impact accounting so environmental economic accounting and we have the framework of the state of the environment reporting I'm really keen that we actually put a lot of a lot of substance behind those and stand them up as regular national reports I've got to tell you it's very early days in the department of climate change energy the environment and water is still quite a new department and that that actually takes its toll on how quickly we can stand it up so for me I think the real opportunity is ideally realising the synergies that operate between sectors because in many different sectors there are huge strides that have already been made around environmental data and analytics and reporting I don't think we need to reinvent a whole new wheel so for me the real opportunity is how can we stick that together and I think that's something that we're all grappling with how can we you know realise those synergies there are gaps in the landscape but I think within DQ it's our opportunity and our contribution can be helping to set the framework so we will be legislating national environmental data standards they're not they're going to be the beginning of the story not the end of the story but that's actually setting and a standard of expectation for data that is ideally provided to the regulators but also that we release and our job will be to release accredited data I hope that can flow all the way through the system and ideally if we're a coherent system those standards are reflected in all our our activities in a CRC activities and increased funded activities that we're actually reflecting those standards we can legislate around those things but I think a lot of it comes down to the people making it happen and having a shared commitment across our sectors I do deeply feel that there is a missing voice at the moment in this shared vision and its First Nations voices and so I think with you know how we can walk with First Nations data efforts and ideally achieve synergies is another really important thing and I think for us as data creators and data users as Kylie said the communication of that is really important too so that we're not just anecho chamber and we all get the value of data and we don't want this shared sort of vision and hope to fall by the wayside again because people who are not from that background and not scientists not researchers don't actually see the value of it so I think that culture and that commitment to communicating and making sure that users understand what it means not just presenting data is really important so I've probably run out of time I suspect Michael but I really thank you for coming I really hope that we can collectively build something that's greater than the sum of our own organisations objectives and motivations thank you thanks very much Jane and the other three panellists I've been we've been trying to do this for 30 years you've been there three weeks you know it's not an easy gig and we've we're actually running a tiny bit ahead of time so I'm going to throw one question to the panel and then we'll have some discussion here and we're monitoring online um I think our microphones will come on or just use that um I just to kick things off and then we we have a break and then we'll come back for a you know good 40 minutes of more discussion where is that clever question um trust I think I'm the first one to use the word today thank you Hamish you put it on my my notes but a key issue is trust in in between researchers of data of collaboration incuration accessibility everything um anyone on the panel or all what do you have any comments on the the key issues for as we build hopefully this all singing all dancing integrated system of all issues of how to gain trust to maintain trust between any of those moving parts everyone trusts accounts don't they an accountant so you know that's an easy answer Kylie you for trust um I think where we're going to be pushed to move faster is the increase in social licence so we have a very strong public and community group out there that do want to see data uh they're getting very savvy they know how to read data um and they're expecting more from it so for me um the task force for nature financial related disclosures um is one of the the great frameworks coming through that are going to make um industry for example um really show what impacts they're doing and what are they're doing about that so I actually think there are mechanisms out there um that are forcing people to really put their data out front and really let the public actually scrutinise it so I think we're being forced maybe from outside to move quickly in that area Jane and Michael I probably come at trust from a couple of different angles the first one is trust for sharing of data and I think this is a really um big challenge because when researchers don't necessarily want to share data project proponents don't necessarily want to share data first nations don't necessarily want to share um data so there's there's a real issue in how do we store and provide access to data in a way that protects commercial and intellectual property um ownership so that's one thing and I think that's that that is going to be one of things we're going to have to grapple with but it is a broader issue of who who gets to see the data but the other one is the other aspect of trust is in using data and whether users will actually trust it and it is a very qualitative thing but again um in our space I think that's very much where it's critical we have um explicit data standards that speak to not just that multi-criterion speak to things like how is the data collected how representative is it how comprehensive is it who collected it how current is it and those sorts of things and I think this is where we do need to provide guidance and us as sectors actually collectively what what data is good data for this particular use and that's going to be the challenge for us in making sure that data is fit for purpose whilst not making the bar so high that we end up having no data that's considered to be any good so there's going to be something that we're grappling with but I think more broadly I think we're all grappling with what how much data is enough and how good is good enough for making decisions right now of course no environmental or a system data has ever been subject to conspiracy theories on the splinton atom anti-social media Michael yep um look thank you yeah some of what I was going to say has already been said but I think here we get to confidence in the systems and the processes and the institutions I mean why do you trust that GDP is right comes out every quarter it gets reported on the news does anyone stop to think if they got it wrong we trust the ABS to get it right rightly or wrongly we trust them I work there I trust it okay they have processes they have data quality assurance standards it's not subject to ministerial sign-off good or bad the data comes up you have to trust the institutions you have to trust the processes coming then back to this frameworks different task forces and things okay voluntary standards do we want voluntary standards set by the industry do we want single materiality are we only interested in the financial risk to them are we interested in the financial in the risk that they post the environment so it's not what some of these others and there's many there's the international sustainability standards board there's the global reporting initiative there's the business and bio of dirty assessment will the real framework real set up stand up it doesn't matter what we want is the Australian accounting standards board to say if you're going to report on this you do it like this and then you don't get greenwash and there is a senate inquiry at the moment about greenwash so how do we stop that we need trust in the processes trust in the institutions look I I think trust is important to go to perhaps something that Jane was saying in terms of as a somebody who produces research data I think the research community is getting better it hasn't been very good for a long time in terms of things in bottom draws and and all of that sort of thing but most journals now are requiring you to publish your data and your code so people can repeat your analysis which I think is a great thing I think the the major issue that researchers have with sharing data is apart from wrangling it is is essentially one of losing their core award structure and you know the the ability to turn that data into a publication which is essentially part of your career and someone else step in before you do that is one of the major challenges for researchers but I think particularly with long-term data that's so important researchers have to be able to say this is now in the public arena and others can do things with that data that I or someone would never have thought of I think the other thing that I'm that's happening more and more is that researchers are getting rewarded for data sets and you know in in the sort of citation metrics that's sometimes an obsession within the academic community that that's also important so thinking about some of those reward structures around use of data and acknowledging where it's come from is important one aspect that of trust which we haven't really talked about is this issue of uncertainty and how do you capture uncertainty in data and that really is also about trust because people don't necessarily always understand that a line on the map is a fractal line and it depends on the scale that you're looking at and communicating that uncertainty I think is going to be really important in terms of getting community trust and people supporting the sort of data that's being collected and being used to make some of those big decisions that are inevitable as our planet gets affected more and more by the Anthropocene. Thank you all four panellists we come to one minute to go so I think we'll have our break I believe there's afternoon two for 15 or 20 minutes and then come back for a good three quarters of an hour of discussion. I think just to draw two dots is how do we make decisions without waiting forever for perfect data and the matter of uncertainty and I'm if we had a high court judge here they'd explain what beyond reasonable doubt and on the balance of probabilities is but the standard of proof upon which a particular decision can be made is something that I think across science more accounts the media the senate chamber we all have really quite different understandings of what a what a decent level of certainty is for a particular purpose so but the only certain thing is that we'll break now have a cup of tea thank you. So we're going to open up now I will throw some questions later to specific people who I will demand speak but for the moment we just open up we're monitoring online and Keith will tell me where we have fabulous questions from somewhere out there in the blogosphere but for now at least I will just look for hands that pop up in the audience. Come on now Richard. That is X or Twitter as it was known. It is one of the biggest data collecting particularly at the citizen level but also at the scientific level mechanisms that is out there and I've got no doubt that 99.9% repeater of the data is just opinion you can get addicted to giving opinion I'm really good at it but in amongst all of that is really really really useful stuff and that 0.1% of stuff that might be really useful could be a greater amount of data that's collected free compared to all the investment that's being made into formal data collection model so going back to my question how can we make for all people scientists, regulators, mums and dads etc an addiction and worthwhile what's the reward? I'm not going to guess who is most addicted to collecting data on this panel but just open the panel generally it's a nice one some people aren't into this some people are how do you how do you get them hooked Michael? Yeah I think it's all about the payoff it's not about the data it's about what you get from the data so I think you need to work backwards what do you get from it so the reason we have the economic information system is it supports a giant economic decision making system what's our giant environmental decision making system we actually have a decision making system which has learnt to work without data so it doesn't need data so that's a cynical view but I think that's you've got to get to start from how you use it rather than you know it's what you get out of it not what you have so no no so you start with the you have to have a decision making process so you start with the decision making process and walk back to the data you need which some of which will be the data you have some of will be data you don't have or information you don't have will make a distinction between data and information here because sometimes we've got this massive big data but what's the signal from the noise there's all sorts of things we can get out of that but it's pulling out of all of that big noise the information it actually feeds in so once you've got a system which can use the data you then get addicted to the data and it can't work without it but at the moment we you know it's we start that's why we've done lots of projects with First Nations with different decision making processes to see how we can work backwards from the decision to the data so you know so that's my solution is to work backwards so that the payoff is clear from the beginning just jump in yeah look for me is where's the social scientist we quite often don't have social scientists on our projects and we really need to understand human behaviour it drives everything put it back my old policy hat on like waste why do people throw rubbish out if you understand the why's rather than jumping straight through we're going to increase fines we're going to put this fence up let's have a start why so in regards to yeah data collection why do we want them to collect data let's understand the human first and start bringing more social scientists into our projects just not data people just not environment people it's a multidisciplinary problem this is I and the academy of social sciences thank you for those comments Richard or Jane okay thank you um I could say but why wouldn't you want to collect data but that might just be um that's sort of a slightly skewed perspective look I think people are innately data collectors if they can see that there's a place where it can be being used people will contribute it but we don't necessarily have the full proof systems for people to contribute their data so um ALA is doing a fabulous job of you know convening citizen science there will be others from where I sit I think there's still probably not high enough profile where people can see that they can contribute to and that's part of the challenge but I also do think going back to my well why wouldn't you collect data I think we are all innately scientists and data collectors but I think we need to celebrate that right starting from the very you know grassroots primary school level at high school level when we're training people in their rudimentary science we celebrate data collection and stewardship as sort of part of the hallmark of being good scientists and then in science and tertiary institutions and science organisations we we reward good data custodians um we actually reward people who publish their data as well as who publish in science journals um and we actually celebrate people you know data custodianship as a sort of an organisational strength just as we would celebrate you know inclusive culture and things like that I think we've actually got to you know reform the whole culture so that we recognise that it's a national good but we also need as well as the culture we need somewhere for people to contribute and we also need systems so that those data being served up in a way that can be ingested and as usual usable and that's you know something we'll be grappling with twos like we just don't want everyone's random data we need them to you know provide us in the right form so I think that's part of the challenge but yes there's a huge wealth out there and we could even be being more directive in encouraging people to not just throw up any data but actually to help us in our environmental monitoring so there's a huge opportunity there but it is culture and systems together. Richard any hints from is there a data anonymous group that deals with people who are addicted? What are addictive? I think citizen science tells us a bit about how people can get interested and I think it's about their passion but it's also how do they easily collect that data and what do they get back from it. We've been working with social scientists with the Australian Museum's frog ID to try and work out what motivates someone to go out and could you motivate them to go out somewhere where you've got no data so I think some really interesting aspects around that. I think for professional addicted data collectors like me I think a lot of it is about what's happening to your data is it being used is it do you get that sense that you are actually making a difference and that's about that data being accessible it's about that data being talked about in policy and management and sometimes even hardwired in there. I think the other challenge is particularly when you've got long-term data we've been collecting this data for 40 years that's a lot of different agencies at various stages middle managers have come up with a new shiny thing and they want to throw out the old so there's some issues around particularly environmental data how do you collect data and support those long-term data sets that give you that time series that really is able to measure change and then what are the key indicators that because we can't measure everything so we want to find that sort of basket of goods if you like in terms of CPI indices that can tell us something about the environment and people say yeah this is what's going on in our environment. Keith is coming a good one from one of our virtual attendees hello all of you. We have a question from our virtual one of our virtual attendees and this one specifically to Jane so this is about will environmental information Australia encourage development and management of information to move decision makers from positions of unsustainability as well as innovations and entrepreneurial perspectives on moving sustainability forward in a positive transformative way. It's a good question and I don't know that I have the answer for it but I believe that the first step in change is being able to see the state of what you're trying to change so for me decision makers can't make a decision if they don't have you know all they they actually frequently have to make a decision in the absence of data but a decision that's grounded in understanding the current state situation is much better than one that isn't will it lead to innovation I'm sure it will both in the you know in many sectors so I think it will so I don't think I think there's only yes yes yes in answer to that question but EIA is not going to be making those changes we're going to be providing the information and then it's for decision makers to to use that information. A comment on that from anyone else in the panel. I think there's I think there's an interesting space here between the different data collectors gatherers thinkers where government can sometimes say we've got the way to do it or CSRO or so I think it's important to sort of think about how some of the university sectors can also collaborate and I think there was a discussion about how do we develop this mutual trust because that's fundamentally important I think and that's not just about data it's also about how we conceptualise the use of data and what sort of pipelines might be coming on board that help us making these systems interoperable which is so and I always think that not everybody's going to have all of the data in the world or all the data in Australia it's actually how do you get that spatially explicit data pipeline in for the space and the time that you want to look or the issue that you want to look at and you might find that some universities got that data but how do you get that data to the point of considering analysing and then providing the information to decision makers and I think that's a challenge and probably an interesting space for Jane's organisation in building some of that capacity as well. I recall a very senior European research manager and leader who moved to Australia and after about three months said yeah this is across 27 countries said collaboration is the utter first theme of doing things in Europe if you put in a single bid from a single institution it's like okay what's wrong with you yeah it's not done and he said here it was suddenly competition this is a person who worked for peak bodies so that does bring up the as anyone read the discussion paper on the university's accord I don't think it mentions long-term ecological data but anyway but we are looking at restructuring some of the motivations and incentives in that space and that's just the research space which which you've mentioned all these moving parts any comments from the panel on that what shifts do we need in the if you like the motivational model or the incentive structure set in different parts of it from so we have we always say old government agencies but we have the ones that are purely to provide information not to make decisions we have regulatory ones who don't make policy but implement what's there private sector is very diverse you know the the custodians and organisers and accounts of data in the middle any comments on where you think a shift in the motivational or incentive structures could work you know I know as a long-term person in a university system funny thing was I tend to get on better with people outside my own university but the incentive was not to collaborate other than at the margins for a central excellence or something for the big carrot but any any thoughts on whose mindset could you really like to tweak to make something happen in this space I mean I mean I I think you there are you know the money bits but I don't really think that would make it happen I actually think you need the technology that says this is a part of Australia how do I contribute my data to that and if we had ways of doing that in time and space I think you might then get the buy and then you would realise which data sets are important which aren't and I was actually going to ask Vicky this issue of um environmental assessments there's a huge data set there that doesn't really go anywhere and you know when there's an environmental assessment no one actually looks at what the environmental impact is afterwards there's a lot of work done before but not necessarily afterwards and a lot of that data tends to get tied up within the industry processes and is not transparently available even though it might be collected for a particular important reason um it's just a wealth of data there I had noted that down as a question and for Richard who's now asked it for me yeah look it's a really good question and we are actually starting to see the change now already coming through with some of our clients um it's primarily driven by social light license um in the fact that their community is so strong they may be opposed to the development um and so they're really forced right at the early stage of the very first surveys to actually showcase that then um what the um environmental impact assessment is showing what was the information that puts in there um if the development's been allowed and the conditions then followed the monitoring that needs to go through so this is where we've definitely embraced the digital reporting that can actually take um the interested audience through that entire story so you've got data that builds on and builds on and builds on from each other um how do we get that out that we'll be out when visually to be able to see by some of the the clients um and it's really important that we celebrate those early adopters um the ones that are showcasing sometimes yes there will be there is an impact this is what they're doing to help um i'm talking much more than just offsets um but yeah brave enough to put that information out there um to show that this is what their damage will be this is what they're doing um and then when more and more people see that um it'll become i'm hoping then more of a norm that it will be expected and if you don't have that data then the question will be why don't you have the data to show what you're doing and i think again bringing in that social science people want want to know they don't want to have things hidden they prefer to know what is there what's being done um and particularly now with the technology of drones and things like that they can now go to find that was an offset site this is a drone uh what's going on here so it's better to be honest up front and we we are starting to see that with our clients someone else on the floor here yeah sure hello my name is lou from Deloitte Australia um so about 10 month ago i was with LA so that's probably more of a question along that those lines and then for Richard but then any other panellys is welcome to to pitch in for that thought so you were Richard you were talking about the now it's more encouragement around the the for the scientists to publish data and then because they got citations and all that kind of stuff right and then i guess one of the that's awesome i guess one of the thing is that's still silo data still sort of right that sort of data sitting somewhere in the in a spreadsheet where it takes a lot of energy for people to discover that and then actually data makes more impacts if they kind of bundle together right so so have you seen any moves or incentives around the research community or the industry that that has uh uh like encouraged promote people from actually how to move that data together rather than sort of everybody upload their own spreadsheet on it on the on the website it's a very good question i don't think i've seen a lot of that it's starting to happen um and i think that's coming with the development of the tools to do that so things like google earth engines allowing us to pull in data sets at larger scales there are i mean i mean there's always been this issue of paywalls particularly in peer-reviewed journals and some of those uh you know with open access uh dissolving or the researchers have to pay now for people to make money um but there are those data sets on things like figshare but they're not as you say very discoverable and so i'd really do think the you know to me the technological solution is how do we work out ways for people to contribute their data in space and time and i'm not sure what that mechanism is but to me that would provide an opportunity to do that um and and i think researchers will jump on board if they've got a mechanism they won't necessarily need money to do that it's actually how do they do that and that you might get more collaboration across the whole sector or across you know industry um universities and non-government organisations if they're able to do that sort of thing i i can feel of offering coming here from michael yeah no it's um it's not directly on that but it's sort of coming out but it's this difference we're talking about research all the time and i think there's a difference between research and monitoring and sort of monitoring's the information you know you need so you want to keep it going the research perhaps leads you to the other information you need but don't have and perhaps you get the better methods to do that so i just come you know there's this thing there's research done by scientists by researchers and then there's monitoring which is done by other people and it's then how do we get this monitoring which is done for you know it's a standard well i hope it's a standard form which then gets plugged into a standard form um in the department of environment there's issues there with confidentiality but then you can put these little pieces of the puzzle into a bigger piece and then hopefully you get landscape management landscape data from elsewhere people like richard and others and if there are gaps there you can ask the research community can you fill these and you know it becomes creative commons i don't really want to use that word but i just did um yeah but people can fill gaps that they can see and need it either in the landscape or in the different domains of research for one of a better word so the gaps force us to ask the questions it exposes the questions consistently to us other comment on that um ticker issues just going to say we have two fabulous w a representatives here wobsie and wobsie um who for me are showcasing some of the data um collate you know collective getting different data groups together such as mining i'm not sure if we can reverse it and ask them to respond to the question um but yeah i'm really seeing there are some really good groups out there that are addressing how do we get different groups to come together to share the data um and they're doing it well by selling the value of what that data is and how it benefits other groups so yeah louise i think it is happening and there's some great examples in the room given given one of my zare questions and the other three can be forewarned because kyle has given us one is can you think of some really exemplars out there that capture in somewhere or what should too so certainly a voice from the west we look it's a federation we have we have to keep the the outlying states happy technology we don't really have that out west yet um no uh thanks for for highlighting the work that's being done uh in w a through wobsie wobsie western in biodiversity science institute marine science institution along with our partners in in government and you know a number of the streams of the conversation about capturing the the work that environmental consultants do in um in doing environmental impact assessment and passing it through to our our regulator in door um department of environment water and and we now see through the establishment of ipsa and ipsa the biodiversity index of biodiversity surveys and assessments around 100 million dollars a survey effort every year is being captured uh i'm becoming a public asset uh which is available or becoming available to the research community to to the consultants uh that's 100 million dollars of effort that previously was going to use Richard's example into someone's bottom drawer it was the survey was being done it was informing a figure in an eia document which the consultant would hand to the regulator who would then look at it and go yes or no but the data was gone so uh over the last three years that's been in effect we're now working on the tools to actually enable the research data the modelling identify the gaps to then to come into that so um there is there is light at the end of that tunnel of giving people the opportunity to contribute their data and see what the value of it is do you want to add anything Luke? Something about well. So thanks Adam. Area where you have very big mining with very big interests um in in making sure they can get their resource out that they have impacts over catchment scale yet they can't share information through various reasons but mostly collusion um but by sharing it through an independent facility that can house that information and then build the tools that they need you can put that data to use so we're trying to run a case study through wobs in the PILBA to do that and in the marine space we're looking at Coburn Sound where there's an incredible amount of existing information and huge new development in that area 15 billion dollars over the next 10 years of industry so we're collecting new data streams that fill the data bucket so that we can build the tools like hydrodynamic models or noise models or habitat maps so we're getting a really good regional description um and real-time information going into modelling so that we can do things like cumulative impact assessment. Thanks very much and we have a question just behind and then I was going to put you on the spot Hamish if that's okay. Okay thanks to you. We had a hand up before. Thanks my name's Greg Terrell it actually flies very much on from the discussion we just had and it was related to the title of this session which is Translation Pathways between three sort of groupings and the question is what seems to me we've explored quite strongly the public availability for reuse of research data I think we've just heard the WA example where there probably are translation pathways in in place and the question is have we fully explored what a translation pathway is the extent to which we we've got what we need and what are the gaps what what does that look like. The gaps one is interesting okay now any any responses to this one yeah the translation pathway and the gaps. Jane. I'll have a go I mean it may sound a little bit like blowing the same trumpet but I think we we are lacking systems and processes for affecting that translation I think we're at the starting blocks in that there is a congruence of motivations to do make the translation but I think we're still very early days in terms of having the mechanisms to do that and that's why I guess this is the beginning of the conversation we could just sit around and spin our wheels and admire the problem forever and it's a massive problem and that would be a shame I think what's actually has been achieved in WA and that was going to be my example too so you saw that one is a spectacular example of where there has been translation across sectors but to me we have to have the right motivation first of all which I think we have we then got to have the right well roadmap to to or a sort of a national strategy to engage the different players or a strategy across sectors that actually speaks to that motivation and unpacks it into what we're actually going to do about it but there are some really systemic things that come down to formalising data standards what the culture is the organisational messaging around how we implement and value data standards and implement it but also a commitment to sort of sharing and and a shared outcome as well so we lack all of those those the cultural and the structural elements to do that in the moment however I think we're at the first we're at the right place to actually talk about how we make that happen and I know whilst in environment information Australia we're a piece of the puzzle ARDC is doing a fabulous job within the research sector of actually building that momentum internally I think there is a real value in us setting up some sort of governance around how we might make it work across sectors as well as within sectors but these are all just starting thoughts at the moment well I'm going to jump in can I jump in well could I introduce heinish is the director of the planet research data comments of which there are lovely descriptions on the table as you walk out with with more sub-programs than we can focus stick out but I think a comment about I've only been involved with ARDC in a marginal way for a couple of years it's fascinating to actually discuss what I'm familiar with which is long-term environmental monitoring and research and environmental data in a but in a context where you can actually talk about health you can talk about totally different domains of data and I would throw out the idea that one of the silos we have is not thinking about data information to decision pathways just in environment just in ecology or just in water but actually go hey what's a cohort study oh that's interesting that's what health people do and there's all sorts of commonalities and contrasts so I think it's we've got to focus today but I think ARDC and there are other you know ways of doing this together an actual sense of is what we have in front of us really that different are there answers out there that other disciplines and sectors have already done but Hamish from the planet thank you Stephen Hamish Holler ARDC director of the planet research data commons and and thank you to the panel and then the discussion and the people here and and the 150 people online as well actually um Stephen I think that's actually a really really pertinent question about combining across those domains and across those disciplines and particularly when we look at the value system that drives the impact so what are we actually kind of valuing why are we collecting this data and what is the insight and knowledge that we want to get from that and generally the environment doesn't exist by itself we know that that's that's a complete theoretical construct as such it's always there to support and be productive and sustainable that's what we actually kind of want and that includes um as Richard would say anthropogenic kind of changes in our kind of use of the environment and thinking that through in terms of how do we define those data needs and those data questions both the analytics and the research that kind of goes behind it is a story that we actually really need to be telling a lot more better and if I take our example of the work that we have been doing with Wombsie and Wombsie around the Pilbara region there and why that has been so successful it is because it says those it tells that story from both an environmental, social and economic perspective it also talks about the value proposition of getting these translation pathways correct and right so for research it's showcasing how my research will actually impact decision making in these particular regions so that's both my data but also the models and the knowledge that I generate around that region for industry it's quicker and faster decision making is more robust and meeting our social licence for ESG reporting as Kylie kind of said dollars in time really and for government it's it's about robust repeatable methods and accessing that wealth and advantages within the research sector so if we take the Pilbara example where there's a hundred billion dollars worth of infrastructure that's going to be developed over the next 10 years when we talk to the state at our last workshop there was 50 data providers immediately that came out they said yes we want to be involved we just need the framework to be involved and how our data is handled and how our data is treated and also we want a common language to be able to talk that through so from from in the um planet's perspective and and the work done with Wapsie is around the shared analytical framework for the environment so what is that common language that we can all look towards and have a roadmap towards actually rolling that out in another region and when we talk about those regions it really gets people interested very involved uh east Gippsland the Gippsland areas another area the northern rivers southeast Queensland we've seen these kind of pressures in these drivers which really kind of force that integration of data and force us to be thinking about those new methods involved in that so I think I think we don't still that story enough and what are those data needs that and how do we get those providers involved having the infrastructure behind that we've got largely got a lot of the infrastructure behind it but it's having the the same language that we actually kind of use how is it shared how's the data shared it's a private it's a collaborative how's the analytics of that shared as well and then I think as we go up that chain when we think about those models and the analysis that is done by that and looking at Michael here what is the methods and how do we communicate and describe those methods that we have a commonality across our analytics and modelling pipelines so level zero all the way up to level four which is endorsed by the UN as a method and I think there are some of the fundamental components that we need to get in place to actually kind of help this out so it's probably a question back to Michael yeah um so here there's a lot to unpack in that question so but I'm going to drive this back it's people tend to focus on methods and data but you need metrics so what are you going to measure it in so you need a concept to measure and so we get back to this language the translation what do we mean so we have the global ecosystem typology which is used by the people who use the global ecosystem typology I'm sorry I can't remember the WA's classification for vegetation but I know they have one but New South Wales has their own Victoria has their own and the ACT has their own no one uses the same thing so their classifications don't talk to each other they're speaking a different language now sometimes you can translate doesn't matter I call it water somebody else might call it Agua Leo whatever it is we can sort that out but the problem is if we start using different metrics okay so you know and there's some things you can use an inch to measure a length or you can use a centimeter that doesn't matter but are we measuring length and this is where I think the accounting comes in because it actually sorts out all of the different concepts you need to measure it doesn't tell you how to measure them it doesn't define a method and if I think back to the way you know the ABS properly measured GDP in 1956 it would have been completely different so you don't want to standardise the measurements this idea of the level one two three tier reporting I think that's right it's you get back here when is data good enough and here I think timeliness is everything I mean you want to flood warning before it gets to you okay so you don't want to know that it's 6.735 meters 20 minutes before you're at five meters you'd actually much rather than over it was four meters plus or minus two about three hours before so now I have gone off track but I come back here that I think the accounting and so it's these classifications of both the assets okay so all of your different ecosystems all of the different ecosystem services nature based solutions whatever you can they're known by many different things they're more or less the same thing there's about five different classifications for those will the real classification stand up who is going to standardise so that's you know trying to tie all those pieces together so I think you know so frameworks methods tools initiatives it's a it's a storm and you know we're looking everyone's looking for guidance it seems there's a collection of experience that can be brought together but how do we do that but it comes back to one there's this translation in one sense are we all talking about the same thing are we measuring at the same measuring the same thing but then I've lost the thread of my thought but I think it's it comes back to many different things and how they get pulled together and I'm going to stop there because I really have gone off now I've been told to wrap up but I'm going to do one last act get ready the other three panellists it's Christmas in a minute there was supposed to be a session of takeaways I don't think that's necessary but I'm I'm going to propose that most of the challenges aren't different in kind than they were 20 25 years ago and but we have very different capabilities and much larger opportunities and it's not a date or a technical issue as much as a cultural issue I would propose but now it's Christmas and I'll I'll the three panellists Michael you just had a one go so one dot point what would you like for Christmas in the environmental infrasomations space just one thing that could be given or changed okay huge amount of funding for long-term ecological research I think I'd like a a map of Australia where you could go there and find all the data that was there for this point all historical points and be able to project what's going to happen in the future not easy I know but I think if we could get there we would make much better decisions I think we could we could create that that's not a technical issue then we'd have some really interesting data questions for me it's respecting listening and collaborating so I've got three it's a chocolate box you're getting exactly so it's respecting it's listening it's collaborating with all members along the supply chain because unless you're going to have them in the room together to work out where you're going how you're going to get there and who needs to be involved we're going to be still sitting here in in 2030 years so get into the room respect each other really listening what are their particular problems and working together as a collective force not just I live and breathe and an expert in here have a look at the bigger picture that's an interesting term to use supply chain not used before today and I think recent years have shown us what happens at one point in a 27 point supply chain doesn't work it's it's not about analogy to make people think about back and forward in the in the process chain I actually concur with Richard the national map with everything on it would be fabulous but I don't think I'm going to get that for Christmas this year probably on the pathway to doing that and this might not be this Christmas either I would love us to have a national plan for how we share and combine national environmental data to really build that national map so that's the big sticking point for me I think we've all got fabulous shared motivation but how we translate that into the what are the steps that we can respectively do in our respective sectors to actually build that map that actually allows us to say anywhere in Australia how we're doing environmentally and to actually stand that up in the next few years rather than when it's all too late okay I think that is the point where we're going to close I look we're all personally more excited about Richard's map but the national framework for a policy wonk like me all year that'd be great so we'll work on both and could I thank our four panellists and thank you all and Rosie you have a last word because if I don't have the last word who's going to thank Stephen for doing an amazing job um I also want to thank our panellists for joining us this afternoon um and as a thank you to our speakers we are going to be donating to the organisation 15 trees uh to be planting trees in the daintree forest I also want to thank the ARDC staff that have worked to make this afternoon possible um Keith Russell, Hamish Hollowa in looking at the program ASHA who is very literally often behind the scenes thank you um for all of your efforts here ASHA and I also think it's important to recognise the other ARDC staff that don't always get called out um Myra I'm calling you out thank you for being on the desk today most importantly I want to follow up by thanking those of you that are in the room as part of this discussion to the 60 participants that have been with us during the session this afternoon and the others that have registered and will be getting a copy of the presentation later I hope that you will go away from this afternoon thinking something that you haven't thought before we haven't just come together to admire the problem but you've heard something that's given you an idea or changed your mind or you're going to take back to the desk and do something about it and if we do that then uh it's it's a brilliant success for an afternoon I also hope that you will all join us at the ARDC uh with the planet research data commons but also with people and with Hassan indigenous our other two research data commons as we move forward to create enduring national research infrastructure to tackle these really big challenges so that's my challenge to you and my thanks