 Yeah, so I'm a dating relationship coach for women, focus on helping women over 40 demographic, helping them understand men, particularly divorce men. And I'll be candid with you. The reason why I wanted to speak to you, my son turned me on to you a couple of years ago, and I just want to say I love your content. I love your personality. It's kind of a kick. And I'm a boomer, so just to give you an idea of my age demographic. And I heard you on fresh and fit and just pearly things. And I just wanted to talk about what I heard, because these are people who speak in partial truths. And then when you get a chance to speak your point of view, they cut you off. They try to bully you with their narrow point of view. And I just wanted to dive into a couple things that you speak of because of the business I'm in. OK, yeah, sure. Yeah, what do you want to start with? Well, let's just start. One thing, particularly about feminism, I'll talk about what just pearly things talks about. She says the death of a relation. Well, I'm condensing this, but the death of a relationship is due to feminism. And I was just curious to hear your thoughts on that. I'm sure it's probably been like this for all of human history. Now that I'm like 34, I can say that I've seen some things come and go. I've seen how people behave with certain movements. I'm sure as I get older, I'll see even more clear patterns. But I think that things tend to start off as really good ideas. And then things can get a little bit warped or wacky, where it goes a little bit too far. I think overwhelmingly, I would say that feminism has been good for women and for men and for world economies, et cetera, et cetera. But I mean, if you're going to dive into it, I'm sure that there are some things that we can go into where a few women have been maybe yas girled a few too many times or are having unrealistic expectations or standards in relationships or weaponization of therapeutic language and stuff. Now, I don't know if I would call this the fault of feminism necessarily, but it probably wouldn't have happened under a hardcore oppressive society towards women because they've got more autonomy, et cetera. But yeah, I mean, yeah, generally my general thing, just as my background is so politically heavy, is anytime somebody wants to lay the blame at the foot of something very broad, usually there's going to be a more granular explanation. And usually those conversations aren't too fruitful. So if somebody comes up to me and they're like, yeah, the reason why crime rates are so high in certain communities is because of capitalism. It's like, well, that conversation is very, get us very far. And I feel the same way about people who want to blame feminism, you know? So I'm just curious, why do you think she just harps on that narrative so much? Probably a few reasons. I think there's a combination of some like, there's an epistemic bubble that forms in online communities where you start to see certain information and then you start to see more information that matches that information. And then you see more and more and more and eventually it becomes very, very, very easy to build up this whole repertoire of anecdotes that reinforce your worldview and then you consequently, you know, reinforce the explanation for that worldview. So I'm sure she probably had some questions that introduced to some things and then she sees more and more and more. And there are genuinely a lot of horrible women in the world, there are a lot of horrible men. There's a lot of horrible people, you know? And when I say a lot, I mean like, there is what, seven, eight billion people on the planet. It only takes two or three people to make you feel like there's a trend, you know? So yeah, I mean, I'm sure she's probably, yeah, she's probably seen like enough stories of like, I'm sure there are, I know there are women out there that have abused their men, have taken advantage of the divorce process. Like, I'm sure this has happened. So yeah, that'd be my guess. She's just kind of caught in a little epistemic bubble. Now she's built a little echo chamber to kind of discourage and discredit outside voices. So all she can do is continually reinforce the ideas and thoughts that she has about everything, you know? Yeah. Well, it's interesting, you know, I grew up, like I said, tail end baby boomer, you know, I was raised to go to college, get a job, meet a gal, get married, buy a house, start a family. I mean, I followed that programming to the T and I got married right before I was 30 years old. And what I didn't know how to do, to be candidly speaking, I didn't know how to be in relationship with another human being. You know, I had so little experience before that. So as our relationship progressed, we started to move apart and granted, she initiated the divorce, which, you know, again, Pearl Harps on the fact that women initiate 70% of the divorces. But the truth was is we weren't a good fit for each other because we didn't know how to build a relationship. Why do you, I mean, is this really a problem of women in relationship? Or is it that couples don't know how to build a healthy relationship together? I hate it when people give these types of answers. So I'm gonna give a really unsatisfying answer. It's, there's no way that the answer is impossible to know. But I feel like trying to figure out why relationships end, truly, and I hate the way these couples are like, 80% of them are like, right? Like relationships are a critical problem. Exactly, I agree with you there. Yeah, even like, I would even go as far as to say as like infidelity might not actually be the cause of why a relationship ends, you know? Like it could be the fact that a man and a wife are together for five to 10 years for whatever reason, maybe the wife develops depression, she has no libido, and maybe for three or four years they don't have any sexual contact whatsoever. And then the man, you know, it engages in infidelity and then the woman divorced him because of that reason, right? So like, did the relationship end because of the infidelity? I mean, kind of, but the infidelity was also caused by something else. So was it the woman's fault because she's depressed? Maybe, or maybe her depression was caused by some of them, right? It's really hard to know exactly why any given relationship ends. And I hate it when people tend to get like, they'll get really reductive. They won't even go to the part where they'll be like, you know, the infidelity or whatever. They'll just say like women end 80% of marriages or 80% of divorces are women ending them. So it must be the woman's fault. And it's like, that's such an unimaginably reductive view. And a disempowering one too. Like you really have no control over your relationship or anything that happens at all. I guess it's an insane statement to make in my opinion. No, it's fascinating because I will speak as a man who, and I suspect a lot of men in my age demographic in particular, you know, they tend to nest in a relationship. They will stay in an unhappy relationship because being with someone is better than being alone type of thing. So the fact that women initiate it more, and if that, you know, and I totally agree with everything you said, it's because there's something fundamentally wrong about the relationship, and to characterize it as wrong or missing. And I think in many cases, couples just don't know how to break, you know, to talk to one another to actually work on healing it, you know? Versus like my parent, go ahead. Oh, no, go ahead versus my parents, you were saying? Well, I was gonna say my parents' generation, you know, that was where, you know, when they made the wedding, my parents were married 66 years before my mother passed away. In fact, just on a side note, my father just turned 98 two days ago. James, congratulations, I think, yeah. I know, it's just amazing the fact that this guy, I mean, like I'm always shocked that he's still kicking. But what I was gonna say is that that generation, you kind of stuck it out whether you liked each other or not, and if you stayed with each other long enough and go through enough storms, the last 30 years of their marriage, they were actually really happy with one another, even though they went through like a 10 or 15 year period where they practically hated each other, because back then, once you were in, it was for life, you know? Have you ever seen the movie The Departed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You mentioned something, it's funny, because I had a lady, I think a lady divorced attorney messaged me, and she brought up why men are typically not the ones to initiate a divorce, and then another, I think a psych researcher emailed me, and a couple interesting answers I got was one, that thing that you just said, that men will stay in bad relationships, which ironically enough, I think might be true, it reminds me of The Departed, do you remember the scene where Matt Damon's character is in bed, and he's laying next to the psychology lady, and he literally says, he's like, if this isn't gonna work, you gotta tell me, because I'll stay in a fucked up relationship for the rest of my life. I remember him saying that. I remember that scene, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it reminds me of that, and I think that's probably true, because I think there's really big costs to women maintaining bad relationships, but maybe not as much for men, and then also, especially if children are involved, a guy can be divorced and separated, and it's not that big of a deal, but if a woman needs financial support, especially child services or whatever, you have to get that divorce, because otherwise they're gonna wanna know, well, what's your husband's income, what's he doing, you can't qualify for anything, because you're still a part of a marriage or whatever, so it makes sense that they'd be more incentivized to do that divorce too. And then, some of that you just said, and I never, ever, ever give ground in these debates, because these red pillars on this idea, but you're actually 100% correct. The last thing I argued about, this guy was talking about, you gotta endure through bad relationships, and that's how you fix them, and you have to endure, blah, blah, blah, blah. There is an element of truth to that, that if you're keen to bail, the minute things get bad, no relationship is gonna survive, right? There is gonna be some level of, yeah, we fight, and there are issues that pop up, and having the mentality of like, we're here, we're married, we're gonna fix this and work on it, is probably a better mentality to have than I'm gonna run at the first set of trouble, with the obvious caveat that there are gonna be some problems that are probably not worth fixing, if your partner has an extreme substance abuse disorder, or is physically abusive, et cetera, yeah. What's interesting, I'm gonna be interviewing Rabbi Friedman, I don't know if you've seen him on YouTube, but he talks about ancient wisdom in relationships, and from what I understand, the wedding vows were designed to actually stick through with each other, through the storms, because it is through the storms, if you will, and like I and I fully agree with you, if there's true abuse, or there's something really heavily impacting the relationship, then it probably makes sense to move on, but if you stick through the storms, you actually find that you become closer to your partner. I think your generation is so, and even to some extent my generation, is so quick to get out, if it isn't easy, we have this almost expectation that relationships should just be easy, and if it's not easy, I'll just go find a new relationship to replace it. I think, in fact, red pill people, in my opinion, are just focused on the hookup, they're not really focused on creating a healthy, happy relationship with another person. Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, I think that's where my issue comes in, is that like, if I was arguing with a whole bunch of left-leaning people, then I might take that position, obviously it's gonna depend on who I'm arguing with, like which side I'm representing harder, that maybe we do have too much a transitory view of certain types of relationships, especially in case of marriage, especially in case of children involved, but then obviously conversing on the flip side, if I'm talking to a bunch of red pillers, you can't just tell somebody to endure, endure, endure, and suffer and deal with a bad relationship, especially when you guys don't give any advice on how to maintain or work on relationships. It's not just about being ultra-alpha and masculine and killing intruders when they try to break into your house. There's a lot of actual work, boring, communication, feelings, all this horrible dumb shit that nobody, at least guys generally wanna deal with, like that are really important in relationship maintenance, you know? Oh, I know, when I hear Andrew Tate talking about the muggers coming out and you have to protect the woman you're with, I'm like, look, I'm six foot two, I weigh 205 pounds. I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. And I say this because I was never trained, you know, in other countries you go to the army, men and women alike, like in Israel, they go and spend time in the army. One of the benefits of that is you actually get trained on self-defense. And like you were just talking about this the other day, I think it was with Sarah Moore. You're saying how often are these guys actually in situations where they're gonna have to defend their woman? Yeah. Yeah, it's such a silly, yeah. Like to build your life around that, it kind of reminds me of, I really like guns and the firearms, but like realistically, the highest risk of violence at my family is either me killing myself with my firearm, especially after a horrible conversation online, or my son grabbing a gun and accidentally killing himself, right? Like the likelihood of me actually utilizing a firearm for our self-defense gun use is quite low. And the idea that like, I don't know if you've met people that like build their life around this, like I've got a shotgun that comes out of my bed so that I can grab it if I need it here. I've got like a tactical inside the lion holster that I can wear on my boxer briefs when I'm going around the house at night. Like I've got like flashlights and blinkers at every corner, I was like, bro, like you're like James Bond, you know, nobody's coming to evade your house. And it's cool, I think again, it's cool to like think about those types of things, but to build your entire world around it is like, these are not all, these aren't even one percentage. Like most people will never have like the type of violent confrontation in their life where they have to fight and kill somebody. Like it's just an exceedingly rare in the first world is exceedingly rare circumstance. Well, you know, it's interesting. Can I read you something that was on one of my, a comment to mind you, I'm a dating relationship coach for women over 40, but at this person, this a male commented on my page. He said, the vast majority of women today have excessive high body count, well into the tens and even hundreds in some cases. These people are not only undesirable as longterm partners, but they also have destroyed the ability to pair bond with anyone. And the vast majority of relationships are because, you know, and because of women, we talked about that, you and I, and that all the courts favor women and it incentivizes women to end relationships. Why I'm bringing this up is I hear these narratives. And I mean, I feel like a lot of young men that listen to these creators, if you will, are really to some degree being brainwashed by this. And it's so far from what I believe to be the truth. Yeah, like divorces are humiliating. Nobody likes to get divorced. There aren't like, and again, I don't want to say it never happened because I'm sure there's probably some examples of psychopathic woman that, you know, does this shit. But in general, like women don't, these guys act like women brag about divorces. Like they're talking to the other, and like if you were to ask the average red pillar, they would actually say that, that yes, women get divorced, it's funny and fun for them. They ruin the guy's life. Like, you know, that's, this is what they do and they laugh and joke about it. They're like, no, I mean, like getting divorces, it's pretty humiliating. Like most people don't want to go through that process. It's not a fun time. But then a lot of it too, is when I talk to some of these people, and that's what makes it really difficult, is sometimes it's really obvious where you're working with people with very, very limited relationship experience. Especially when like, on some of these shows, like people go around and be like, what is your longest relationship? And I don't know if anybody on any of these red pill guys have like had relationships last more than one year. So it's like- It's only one week. Yeah, and it's like, what do we, what are we doing here? Like where is this advice coming from? Like where are we even getting these stories or these ideas? And the, yeah, and then the, this is why I think that the red pill has a pretty short lifespan. I don't think it'll last much longer. It's just all of the predictions and all of the explanations and the analyses they make of real life. Like it doesn't map on to anything. Like you have to exclusively dive into data and get the worst representations to come out with this idea that women are like these divorce hunting monsters. It's just, you're not gonna find it in the real world. No, and you know, like I said earlier, I'm a byproduct of abortion. I turned 40. My now ex-wife and I split. You know, and she didn't find it any easier. It wasn't like she was rolling in the dough between the two of us. There's a disomaster. There's these things you have to go through if you go through the court system. I will tell you though, personally, the divorce was the best thing that happened to me because I was so clueless on how to be in a relationship. And I'll share with you. My first year after my divorce was right when online dating began to be fairly prevalent. You know, in fact, before there was match.com, there was Yahoo! Personals. And I had over a hundred internet dates in my first year. And what I should say is meet or greet. So I mean, I was going one after another after another. And for the beginning, I was blaming women as the problem, like the whole problem with the dating process with women. And then when I looked in them here, I go, who's the common denominator and all this stuff? It was me. And that's where, you know, I began doing personal development, self-help, spiritual work to actually recognize that I'm not really good at being in relationship. And my point in bringing this up is that, you know, a lot of these content creators, they're not talking about how to actually form a healthy, happy relationship with someone. All they're doing is identifying the problem with no real solution other than stop being a hoe and, you know, and let men lead. You know, and like men are really good leaders in the relationship. And I'm saying that tongue in cheek. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. I mean, like, I agree. It's like, there's, this is what I say like when I go on all these shows, it's not even like any relationship advice that's ever given. Like at best you're getting advice on how to hook up. And then you're getting like basically male power fantasy. Right? Like you need to be the alpha. Like, and I even, I challenge people, and I do this way more now because I'm so tired of hearing these answers. When people say things like that, like men should lead in a relationship. They need to be leaders. What the fuck do you mean by that? Like if you, because if you, if you're in a real relationship, that you don't, you never dictate terms to your partner, right? Like there's never a time where you're like, listen up, where I got a new job, we're moving tomorrow, pack your shit, let's go. Like that doesn't happen, right? Or if it does, you're probably, you're out of that relationship. So this idea, yeah, these things like men are leaders in a relationship. It's like, no, generally both sides have different responsibilities. Generally both sides are making decisions related to what they're taking care of. Like a man is not dictating to a woman. If it's a traditional relationship, he's not telling the woman, these are the cleaning products you need to buy. This is the way in which you need to maintain the household. Like she's doing that, right? And then same thing, you know, yeah, even if the main, even if something comes up with a man's career, if there's like, I've got a new job opportunity, I need to move, that's not gonna be dictated to the partner. That's gonna be a really big discussion that both people are gonna have. Every time I push people on that question of like, when you say men are leading, what are they leading? And I've done this over and over again. We'll spend like two minutes on this. And it's always back to like, well, if I'm going down an alleyway and somebody's gonna jump and stab us, like I've got a fight or like, somebody breaks into the house and I need to take control of the situation. It's like, okay, outside of, you know, like your Rambo combat fantasies, like how are men leading in a relationship? Like it's just, yeah, it's stupid. Well, you might get a kick out of this. I once asked my parents, what was the secret to relationship success? And my dad said, you know, my, your mom understanding I'm the leader of the relationship. And my mom, you know, I turned to her and said, what's the secret to relationship success? And she goes, having your father believe he was the leader of the relationship, reminds me of that movie, My Greek Wedding, you know, where she says, my big fat Greek wedding, excuse me, where she says, you know, the man's the head of the relationship but the woman's the neck. And the point is they have to work in unison. And these, like I said, these creators that I mentioned before, all they do is focus on this one little narrative and make it out that that's the reason why we're having relationship problems. I did want to touch upon something and get your thoughts, you know, it turns out that half of divorces cite intimacy as the problem for a relationship. And the other half cite money as the problem. And I know when I got married, my girlfriend at the time who eventually became my wife, you know, we both had to work to financially support ourselves. And by the time we had children, you know, there was more of a, I don't want to say burden on me, but there was a lot more expectation on me to be a provider. You know, when the fact that I was a generation that spent, you know, we used a lot of credit cards, we overspent and we were always having financial problems. And these guys don't even talk about this. This in the conversation, all they focus is, well, the man must be making a quarter million dollars to support everyone or to support the family. And like that's such a small percentage of the population that actually makes that kind of living. You know, the fact is, is most couples, both of them have to work to support the, you know, their livelihood, if you will. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, I agree. This is another big criticism I have is when I go on these shows, they're giving advice. Like the advice of like, be more masculine only works for like the top 1% of people. Like, is it possible that a whole bunch of relationship issues could theoretically slide if you're, you know, multimillionaire? Potentially, depending on the type of person you're dating. But it's like, it's such a niche thing and like the vast majority of the audience isn't gonna be able to utilize that because most people, like you said, won't work and earn, you know, a quarter million dollars a year. That's an exceptionally rare thing in society. And it's funny because like, on one end, a lot of these red pillars will make fun of women, rightfully so, who say things like, yeah, I want a guy that makes six figures and then you ask them like, how many guys do you think make six figures? And they're like, I don't know, probably like 40 or 50%. And you're like, what a stupid thing to think. But then these red pillars will turn around to like, yeah, if you want to like maintain healthy relationships and get a good woman, you need to make six figures. And it's like, bro, 96% of your audience is never gonna do that. Why would you give that advice after making fun of women for expecting it? So- I know, it cracks me up. And by the way, I think in the United States, less than 90% do make over six figures. And yeah, I think it might be like five to 10% either, yeah. Is that what it is? Okay, yeah. And they're not talking to the reality of the average person. I look at my son, he does really well for himself. He's 27, he probably makes 60 or 70,000 a year. But ideally, if you meet someone else that makes close to the same, two incomes are better than one. Is a better way to look at it. You know, you can pool your resources together. I did have another question I wanted your opinion on. This relates to, I hear it all the time, sexual market value. Okay, speak to me like I'm a lay person here. You know, like, what does that mean and why do they harp on that so much? So sexual market value has to do with the idea that men and women in the sexual marketplace are broadly valued for different things. And I think the reason why people harp on it so much is because it seems like in society, we've pushed back on the concept that that's even real or on the idea that that's even real. So as a reaction to that, they hyper fixate on it. We can probably broadly speak in some generalities that men tend to be preferred more for their accomplishments or achievements. Women tend to be preferred more for like aesthetics or looks or youth. Like these things are broadly true. Now in terms of how it plays out in real life, like people aren't only selecting on that, right? People tend to date within their income bracket. Women are not these crazy, hyper-organized creatures that Red Pillars have them make them out to be. And men tend to date women that aren't average. I think it's like 2.7 years younger than them. That's not the average 40 year old guy looking for that 18 year old Virgin Bride. That doesn't happen in real life generally. So yeah, but I think that's the, yeah, sexual argument I was saying. I know and the fact is there's so much more to a relationship than the sexual aspect of it. In fact, most of a relationship is outside of the bedroom than is actually in the bedroom. So the fact that they over harp on that and I think there's damage to be done with that because especially when women start hitting their 40s and even 50s, you know, if you believe that your value is just strictly based on your ability to provide sex, you know, that's such a weak foundation to build a relationship with. I don't know. Do you ever see the movie, Sleepless in Seattle? I have not. Okay. There's a scene where in the Tom Hanks, this is a 30 year old movie now where a friend of Tom Hanks says for a 40 year old woman, it is easier to be killed by a terrorist than find a life mate when you hit your 40s. And what's interesting, a lot of people feel like, you know, that's a death sentence when you hit 40. I believe it's the opposite because now with the internet, the access we have to people that we wouldn't otherwise meet in our daily lives actually has increased because most people in their 40s, 50s and 60s aren't walking around single eligible people in their daily lives. And now we have at least access to people. The problem is we have access to dysfunctional human beings who have terrible relationship skills and they're equally as frustrated because they want to meet this perfect partner who that doesn't even exist. There's no such thing as a perfect partner. Yeah. So, well, there was a couple of other things I wanted to get your take on. One of the challenges I think in relationships these days centers around the fact that we're meeting total strangers like we know nothing about this person which puts hyper focus on attraction to get the relationship off the ground versus real friendship and connection. I'd love to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree. I've got a friend and if you want to talk to her later she can probably give you good conversation too not so erudite. Something that she brings up a lot that I've been parroting a lot is that it used to be that we met people a lot through warm spaces, meaning places where men and women just naturally cohabitated and you by virtue of just being around them you start to form sexual relationships. When I was growing up that was exclusively how I met women. Like it's funny because I was like five eight guy who is incredibly scrawny. Like I weighed 105 pounds coming out of college and I had bad acting problems and like I never even knew that these were bad things. Like I didn't even know five eight was considered short until I started streaming and got more into the internet culture. It just never occurred to me and I never had any problems talking to women, picking up women, anything like that. I just it just never factored into my mind but I've always been in spaces where I've got a lot of friends that are women, a lot of spaces that I'm sharing with women whether it's school, whether it's work and the idea of like needing to get on even like dating apps or whatever actually I guess dating apps probably didn't exist when I don't know I guess when I was just coming out of college. Yeah just coming out right about them. Sure yeah around 2007 was when I graduated high school. Yeah it just like that never really didn't really matter that much but man yeah getting onto the internet, trying to hunt women down, I should say that I mean like predatorily but trying to like hunt partners down like dating apps is a way different and less organic experience than just being in environments where you're around people of the opposite sex you know. That's interesting, my girlfriend and I and by the way I'm with a partner who's one year older than me. I didn't go down 20 years and we lived together but we watched the show Love Is Blind for example on Netflix and it's an interesting I'd like your take on this. Two people are you familiar with the show at all? Not at all no so. Okay it's a show where two people are in these pods they can't physically see each other. There's a group of 10 or 15 men 15 women they interact with each other blindly and during this interaction they form you know kind of connections with a person and they reach a point where they have to ask the guy typically asks one of the women to marry them in this 10 day period and they have by the way they're in this incubator where they're together 24 seven if you will not I mean separate rooms for the men separate rooms for the women and once they get engaged they actually physically get to see each other they go on a honeymoon together or they go not a honeymoon but they go on a vacation with each other with the other couples and then they have to live together for eight weeks and then they have to decide if they want to still stay married to this person. Why I'm bringing this up is I'm starting to have this belief that you really don't know a person until you live with them like and you'll see a lot of these couples like totally break apart and it's all you know hidden cameras and that sort of thing right? Supposedly but it's you really don't know a person until you actually live with them so my okay why I'm bringing this up is I've noticed that dating is just this long strung out process of what I call just friends with benefits people aren't really they're rarely truly integrating each other into their lives beyond you know especially when they live if there's distance involved or you know distance here in Los Angeles could be 10 miles by the way that could be a long distance relationship. Yeah. What are your thoughts on the idea of accelerating that connection early like living together the way this showed us to really see who this person is versus kind of getting together once a weekend kind of thing. Yeah, I mean it's kind of funny that you bring that up almost suspicious but I'm sure you're not oh wait, wait, wait, hold on one second, one second. Hold on. Okay. Hello? I'm here. Hello? Hi, I'm sorry, hold on one second. Oh, sure. Okay, somebody's reaching out for a zero percent credit program. Okay, sorry. I know if it was an important call okay. You said something suspicious and believe me I haven't, the last thing I watched of you was the Jonah Hill thing. Yeah, oh no, no, it's funny because like the take that I've given a lot on stream sometimes it triggers people, some people agree it's like we're kind of split 50-50 on it. I personally, it sounds to me but I don't think relationships are real until you're living with somebody until then it yeah, nothing matters and nothing counts on from my life personally and I could see pros and cons against this. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for everybody but I usually try to skip to the living together stage as quickly as possible because the idea of like spending six to 12 months dating somebody just to find out that as soon as we move in it's this is never gonna fucking work. That sounds horrible to me. And yeah, I truly feel like when you're forced to be around somebody all the time that's when you stop only engaging with a representative that's when you like actually really see who the person is in which case sometimes the relationship can be improved and sometimes you can find out that like holy shit we are absolutely never going to we're never going to be able to work together. So yeah, I like the idea of like trying but obviously it's within reason, right? If you met somebody in one month and you're 22 years old and now you're gonna get like a three year lease in an apartment with them immediately that's probably not a good idea but I think getting to the co-habitating stage is pretty important because you wanna find out if you can stand dealing with each other in person without like just being able to choose when you see the other party. No, it's interesting and I'm starting to believe that for myself and just to let you know like I met someone long distance she lived in Chicago, I lived in Los Angeles and once we finally connected with one another we're like if this is gonna work we need to be in the same city or maybe in the same home and within two months we agreed to move in together we actually didn't move in together until five months and we spent a ton of time together but now I really know who this person is and we have a friend of ours who did the exact same thing and within the when the year lease came up they realized that they weren't a good fit for each other and now they're separating from one another. I just think our current dating process is just really like I said this almost long drawn out version of friends with benefits. By the way change of subject I mentioned the Jonah Hill because my son brought it up to me and I just briefly watched you talk about the text message issue that he had and about boundaries. My point of bringing this up is I think in an age of social media I actually, I had a previous relationship 10 years ago where we actually came up with something called a social media prenup and we had agreements and by the way just so you know she's an author of a book called Chatting or Cheating and we were on the Katie Kirk show together talking about our social media prenup this was 2012, 2013 I think. And we actually had agreements of what we would post on social media ahead of time. So you know and we would check in with each other on a regular basis because one of us had a I was kind of more flamboyant I didn't mind sharing things she was a little bit more private. Any thoughts on that? Yeah I think it's probably I think it's probably an okay thing to like iron out what you are comfortable with and what you aren't comfortable with. I think that social media I'm sure you've probably done your little evo-psych guides and everything. I think like historically speaking I think humans maintain at most like 50 to 100 connections and that's like all that's about as much as we're kind of like are built in hardware allows us to handle. The idea of putting yourself out there for hundreds of thousands of people to evaluate and judge or your partner to evaluate and judge that's a really inhuman thing that we're probably we're not like we don't have it built into us to be able to deal with that. So I can understand people wanting to reach agreements around like what can be posted on social media and what can't be. I think that's totally fair. Yeah I do think that in some ways I don't go down this road too often because people are so insecure and I just I don't want to fight about it. I do think in some ways it's kind of funny because like I think sometimes I think for men and for women I think that sometimes what social media does or prior to social media I think you can be a little bit delusional and be okay and get away with it but once social media comes out you're it's like you're forced to confront a couple of a little like uncomfortable ways that like sexes relate to each other. So like one example on each side would be for men if you're significant others who's posting on Instagram and you see like a million guys hitting on her right you might think like okay let's have a talk. I'm not really comfortable with this many guys hitting on you you know and like the average guy probably doesn't realize that like girls have been offered sex like ubiquitously probably since they turned 11 years old like by adult men that's just the reality of being a woman. A lot of guys don't know that you know and then same thing with women like women might look at a guy's Instagram feed and be like why are you looking at so many women when you're supposed to be with me and you love me I don't understand like I'm a blonde woman and you there's like 20 like Asian or Puerto Rican girls in your field like what's going here. Like for women they might not realize like how much like a man's eyes might stray or wander you know. Yeah sometimes I wonder for the social media stuff if it's not even like people are so against it they just they didn't even realize what the reality was before. Yeah but yeah it's hard to you know pick out like you know what is the actual cause for people's insecurities but yeah. And then I think it's for insecurities. Well I'll tell you my own. Yeah go for it. I'll tell you my own case I was in a relationship and when it ended I found myself just stalking her social media page because there was like prior to social media when a relationship ended you know we didn't have smartphones we didn't have cell phones back then. You just stopped talking to the person. Now you can just click up a button look inside and say okay what's going on in their life what's she doing why isn't why isn't she thinking of me and all this kind of stuff. And it really I think affects our psychology or not our well our self esteem if you will because we now have access to a person that probably it's just best to move on. Yeah but we have this temptation I mean this huge temptation to keep following someone for just some little dopamine hit are they even thinking of you. I think social media has done more damage than good for human pair bonding to some degree. Maybe it's hard to say more damage to good. It's like it's kind of like asking like did agriculture do more damage or good for human civilization. Because it hurt us in a lot of different ways but obviously it gave rise to our entire civilization. I'm not too eager to say whether it's overall about a good but there's definitely a lot of huge downsides that we're having a really hard time dealing with. And I do agree with you for that. Like that's one of the biggest pieces of advice to give to people when you break up with somebody is you have to block their social media feed because nothing will destroy your mind faster than like are they dating somebody? Like we just broke up and now they're already talking to somebody and it's only been like two weeks and they're posting pictures with them and this guy is like four inches taller than me or he's dating a new girl now and I think she's got bigger boobs than me and I thought it would take longer and I haven't found and it's like you'll like mind fuck yourself in so many different ways. And like you said yeah in the past like when you break up with somebody they're not like in your face constantly like you have to go out of your way to dig for that information whereas today you can just get thrown in your face over and over again by a million people yeah. Well also with dating apps you know it's funny a relationship ends and just out of curiosity you go on a dating app and you see that person's been a lot you know online for a month or whatever. You know that by the way that particularly I think hugely affects relationships when somebody still has a profile that's active while you're actually in a relationship with someone and again people have been doing this for years you know interacting with other people but now it's almost in your face and I really do believe that this causes emotional distress and so few people actually know how to even regulate their emotions let alone identify what's causing this to happen other than like you said earlier maybe blaming the internet and that sort of thing. So where do you see the evolution of relationships? I'm really curious. I mean you know we're human pair bonding you know the younger men meeting women where do you see things going in the future? Man honestly I know that's a broad thing you know. I really have no idea. I think that like there's a couple of things that probably need to change. I think that this is like this is my very very very broad societal analysis. I think that there's a lot of things in society that only worked because they were kind of kept on rails like it was a very strict societal control and I think we've probably assumed for a long time that oh well these are just biological realities that'll never change. For instance women will always be bad at math women don't wanna have jobs women just wanna stay home and have babies women don't like casual sex. Like these are all kind of assumptions that we didn't think that these were like social enforcements we thought this was just biological realities that are gonna emerge time and time and time and time again and as society has kind of like changed a little bit or a lot of it we start to see that some of these things aren't the case anymore so now we're in like a dire time especially for men I would say to where I feel like women were the ones that received socially speaking I think women are the ones that received like relationship training they learn agreeableness they learn how to be kind to others they learn how to manage households they learn familial duties like women always have the training and men's way to get relationships always coincided with their career you learn how to get a job you work and then that's really all you need is like a woman wants to be anything in the world she needs to find a man she's not gonna work on her own and as women have kind of gone into the marketplace for jobs now women not only had all that social training for managing relationships well now they have like the man job training for how to work jobs and then if you're like a normal man your dad didn't teach you shit about a lot of people's dads don't talk to them ever about anything related to sex or relationships other than don't get a girl pregnant that's like the beginning and end of a lot of people's conversation with their parents about relationships so men have no relationship training for societal reasons the left doesn't really want to talk to men because of stupid reasons and then the right that's talking to men are giving dog advice relating to like hyper masculinity that's absolutely helping nobody so yeah I think we just kind of I think that the future for relationships I think it's gonna depend on what kind of like good communication is delivered to men about how to manage relationships and then we'll I guess we'll see what happens yeah. You know it's interesting something I say on my YouTube channel habitually as I say ladies you're actually the emotional leader of the relationship like you have an opportunity to for lack of a better word train men and I don't mean it you know exactly like that but I know in my previous relationship I was in a relationship with a therapist and during that experience and again maybe it was just through osmosis if you will by her mirroring good communication skills I actually became a better communicator in relationship and I learned this through a woman you happen to be an excellent communicator and I suspect the foundation of your marriage is built on really healthy communication. Sometimes. Well I've watched the two of you at times by the way I will say this one is your very self-aware and B you know how to articulate your feelings in particular and not bulldoze your partner at least I don't get that sense that you do that and that is what I think is sorely missing to piggyback on what you're saying men in particular a rarely even know how to identify their feelings and then B actually know how to articulate them in a way with their partner so they can actually have more effective communication with one another. I will say this you know I think your generation and like my son who's also a millennial he's a byproduct of divorce okay my son is right and we talked about a lot of this stuff when he was you know relatively young at the teenager age and I also introduced him to like Tony Robbins and a lot of self-help that I was getting into. Do you see this happening with you know the younger generation I mean I think they're bombarded with the idea of particularly therapy do you think that's helping them become better communicators? I'm gonna be honest I actually don't like the advice of like just get a therapist everybody should be in therapy get a therapist, get a therapist, get a therapist one because there are unfortunately I think there are a healthy number of absolute dog shit therapists out there and two I think that rather than just saying like go to therapy, go to therapy, go to therapy there are a lot of like strategies and stuff that you can learn in therapy that you can just like tell people about you know like if I know for instance there's a guy who every single time he gets into a fight with his girlfriend you know he calls her a dumb stupid fucking bitch whore because he like gets really emotionally dysregulated like I can tell that guy like hey listen try to keep a handle on your mood and if you feel like you are you know getting emotionally dysregulated if you feel like you can't keep your cool or you're gonna call somebody a name like go on a 10 minute walk right like that's like a piece of advice that could literally save a relationship depending on how that person resolves conflict and they didn't need to go to therapy for that you know if you have the money and the inclination I mean I would always say like yeah going to therapy is good but I mean it's kind of like if you've got like imagine there are a ton of you know really fat people well we don't have to imagine there's a ton of overweight people but like you wouldn't just say to an overweight person over and over again like oh go to the doctor get a trainer go to the doctor get a trainer you'd say hey try a different diet go to the gym and work out you know you don't have to have like the therapist for everything but yeah to be clear again yeah I don't think therapy is bad I just I don't like that people scream it as like the first answer to everything and it's like we can probably spend at least five seconds figuring out what this guy's problem is and give him a little bit more tailored advice then just go find a therapist well and I'm in agreement and partially because therapy is such a again like I talked about dating being a long drawn out process if you go for one hour a week you know and so you have 52 hours of time and you're not actually practicing in many cases the tools that a therapist may give you and again I would agree with you 100% there's a lot of you know not so good therapists out there just on a personal note I did something called the Hoffman process which was a eight day deep dive working on my negative patterns my limiting beliefs in life that was all centered to what happened in my childhood and because I did it in this incubator kind of like what we talked about living together with someone when you do actually do work on this really concentrated level you actually come out of this better prepared because again therapy I think is a long drawn out process that doesn't really provide enough versus doing it in an incubator so yeah I would say on that just to vibe on that just to there's a word there's another word I'm looking for I would agree that like if you're doing therapy the absolute best best best best best best best thing in the world you can do is find a close friend to help you work on or reinforce the things that you learn in therapy because a therapy to you is like a one hour a week thing it's like learning a foreign language it's the difference between like going to class once a week versus doing like a total immersion program it's gonna take you years to learn something that you could learn and master in a week if you've got like friends to help you reinforce the behaviors you know Okay I'm gonna ask you a stupid question how did you become so self aware? Being hyper autistic for a long period of time in my life and realizing that if I was gonna relate to people it wouldn't it's not gonna work so yeah. So you actually you actually recognize for and I please forgive this terminology you know a deficiency within you and I don't even like saying it that way there's a better word I just doesn't come to mind I prefer Ubermensch or superiority but yeah Okay okay Yeah we can say it differently that's funny No I just meant that you saw something well really if what we're saying is you saw something which wasn't going to be effective in your life and you said I have to work on this in other words like when I recognized that the common denominator with my dating life was me that you actually then made a conscious choice to work on yourself right? Yeah I think it's funny and it's interesting because of my background I grew up very very very independent and one of the things and it's funny because red pillars like give this advice to the opposite because I grew up so independent in my eye like the only person that's gonna help me is me and usually what I'm trying to think of is like what are the obstacles in my life and how can I overcome them if it's not possible then I abandon that project and I move on to the next thing. So the idea of like blaming feminism or blaming the Jews or blaming some whatever system it just doesn't get me very far. So yeah usually generally the way it goes is if I have some interaction I'm not happy with how things turned out or I feel like I didn't get what I wanted then I'll kind of like look back and I'll be like well what can I do to improve the situation was it my fault was it their fault it was their fault why did I choose that person like I'm always generally try to be like myself focused first like what are the changes that I can make moving forward and I think that's kind of how I've gotten to where I'm at right now. No and society seems to hyper focus on pointing the finger at everyone else and forgetting that there's three fingers pointing back at you saying hey maybe I'm the common denominator on this is okay if I switch gears to something you talked about with Sarah Moore the other day. Go for it yeah. And I'd like your take on it. Because I know you like to talk about politics in particular you know certainly during the Trump era I will tell you on the dating apps you know it was very prevalent you know like if you voted for them that someone would say swipe one way and you didn't vote for them swipe another way. I want your take on this because I do believe if two people have distinct different ideologies is it really possible I mean does even make sense to enter into a relationship if you're really like if someone dies on the sword for Donald Trump and someone dies on the sword for Bernie Sanders are these two people ever really going to get along? It's I think here's one thing that happened that I it took me way too long in life to realize your political beliefs have nothing to do with who you are as a person. I've met some incredibly kind carrying empathetic compassionate conservatives and some piece of sugar conservatives and I'm also the same for progressives or people on the left. So that's one thing I immediately noticed. Secondly I would say that it depends on where your values diverge. I think that people can probably get along with people with a surprising amount of political disagreement but there's going to be some things that you probably can't overcome. Like if you're somebody that thinks that we need like a capitalist government and the other person is like I really think socialism is the way to go. I want more like social healthcare and all that and they were like well I don't know I want smaller taxes. Like you can as long as you get along in every other aspect you know that can be a fun thing that you argue about you know for pillow talk I guess. But if you're somebody who you know like half your family is Latino or black and the other person is like a race realist who thinks these people are genetically inferior invaders that are trying to displace in their country probably not going to get along too well there. It's going to be very awkward at Thanksgiving. So like whether or not you're compatible or not is probably going to depend on the conviction and the differentiation of your political beliefs but I will say very, very, very few people are as strongly politically opinionated and as- Do you think that's like Slasher Spurge's supremacy is unparalleled in other communities? Very, very, very few people will have the convictions that they seem to when you actually start to talk to them. There were a lot of girls when I was in California there were a lot of girls that I met on Tinder who would write like communists or socialists in their profile and I'm very, I'm left leaning but I'm very much not a communist socialist and I'm like oh shit. We're going to be arguing about this because I enjoy arguing but like as soon as I have the conversation we start fighting a little bit I realize like this person doesn't really care that much about this at all but like you're really socialist and they'll be like yeah. And I'm like wow so like you think we should like take away private businesses and stuff and they'll be like no I just like don't like that there are so many poor people here in LA I think that's really sad and like homeless people and I'm like okay. And that's like the extent of their political you know like deep diving. So yeah I think it's pretty rare that you're getting like KGB operatives that are matching with like people from you know the Nazi party you know like I don't think people are usually that dug into their political belief system. What's interesting is that you know prior to you know 2016 politics was rarely ever discussed in the dating realm. It certainly is now just a kind of it feels like it can be in your face less now that Trump is no longer in office at least from my perception of what I see in the dating realm. But certainly for those four years it was like hyper focused. Your politics was a reflection of your ideologies and if we're not on the same page it doesn't make sense to even explore this. Yeah I'm sure that it I want to disagree with you but I think you're right. I'm trying to think of if I ever had somebody ask me like do you support it would have been like what Obama or McCain. I'm trying to think of anybody would have ever been like you're a Republican. I would never date you or you're you support or like I don't think it was anywhere near the ubiquity with which the like you know MAGA swipe left or stuff like that. I don't think yeah I don't think that they were quite as divisive among young people back then at least from my record. Well I'm going to share something with you. I want you to take on this because right this was right during the election. I actually had a date with a woman. We went to the same college Loyola Marymount. She lived in Orange County. I live in the beach area in Redondo Beach. Anyway we met up and we're talking about our background and she's Italian and my parents were from Istanbul Turkey to give you some context. And so we talked a little bit about politics or upbringing that sort of thing. Well we met up on a second date and I kid you not here's what she said to me. She goes I can't date you because your parents are terrorists. Wait what was her background Italian. My parents were from Istanbul Turkey which is relatively and but I think she was so brainwashed during that period of time because the narrative was so strong that if you're from another country that happens to be close to the Middle East or in the Middle East that you're a bad person. So I'm sorry I was trying to think of like this from like a Turkish like Armenian Kurdish angle but no this was back when we just hated everybody that was brown and from a yeah from the Middle East. Sorry yeah I was thinking way too deep in this. Yeah I remember yeah especially around 9-11 and shit. Yeah yeah yeah okay. So listen a couple other things I want to talk to you about real quick it's on a personal level. I have a friend of mine. Do you know a guy by the name of or a YouTube channel called Trip Advice? I do not know. Okay he has over a million subscribers. He's basically he's kind of like the nerd coach that teaches young guys confidence and he just wanted to connect with you. So is it okay Kay if I put the two of you together? Yeah you can always shoot an email between us and see whatever yeah. Second my son who actually did debate in college is curious about maybe if you had any advice for him to how to get into the debate streaming sphere how to go about that if you had any thoughts on that. Be strongly opinionated be articulate and try to hop on to like the I guess people that host political panels is probably the best way to do it. There's a bunch of smaller streamers that have like panels that will invite like eight to nine people on to like shout and scream at each other. That's probably the best way for a new person to like enter the debating market I would say yeah. Okay well I appreciate that. Destiny I just want to thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to connect with you. You're very generous by the way. And I will go ahead. Yeah I'm curious before you go because you said you give you give advice for demographic that basically doesn't exist on the internet right like women over 40 outside of like Facebook groups. I don't see them very much on like YouTube or in the streaming world. What do you for women in that age demographic what do you think is their biggest problem generally because you said that you try to coach them on how to be in relationships especially with divorced men. What is like your what are the unique challenges that you deal with when you're talking to those types of people. Oh I'm glad you asked that. So actually I do have 150,000 subscribers so there is at least enough of a demographic that's actually you know logging in and I get a fair amount of views per video. I think with our age demographic it's quite a bit different. I think with men over 40 particularly though I'd say roughly 75% of people in this age demographic are divorced and that's anecdotal on my part I don't have actually hard facts. First off I think a lot of men in particular after going through a divorce are gun shy. Gun shy of wanting to be in a long term relationship with someone. It could be because of the financial impact that might have had on them or it just might be that they had such a terrible experience. And then again I said earlier most humans don't have really good emotional maturity or relationship skills. So I think one of the problems women are faced with is their desire to have long term partners and a lot of men are just not there. They're in it for the short run unintentionally by the way I think they desire relationship that they just don't know how to be in a good relationship with someone. So they enter into the dating process expecting it to be easy and if it's not easy if they're not you know head over heels they move on to the next one the next one because we have this thing called online dating or dating apps where we have this like you know false sense of choice you know and they figure they can just go find someone to replace them. So that's what a lot of women feel frustration is that the men are rather asked to they appear commitment phobic or even lack good you know communication skills outside of that early stages of trying to convince someone to like you. You know we kind of press rocks as we show up as the ambassador of our best selves in the beginning of a relationship and we're all in interested but the minute it's interesting the minute they have sex all of a sudden guys go oh well I'm not really that into her I'm just gonna move on to the next person so they ghost and disappear. Those are just some of the frustrations women feel in particular and I think men feel the same trust you know it's interesting for men in the over 40 demographic and you said this earlier you know it used to be height play really I don't think most women in their 20s really cared about how tall a guy is as an example the minute they hit 40 every woman wants a man over six foot tall. Yeah. Which I swear to God I mean I mean by the way I've had women five foot two tell me I refuse to date someone under six foot two. Do you think that's a preference that they would actually adhere to or do you think that's something they say but they met the right guy. They would be like you know it's interesting I think because on the online dating it's right there in your face and they're already excluding based on height versus if they met them out in the real world and got to know someone's personality I think that probably dissipates substantially that height requirement. That's something that I talk a lot that I hate about the online stuff is I think that you can over filter and not realize like how much stuff you could you would even enjoy in real life. There are like I have like three or four like major qualifying things that like all the unshows and women will say there's like yeah I would never date a guy or I would never even hook up with a guy who's like bi or who's like progressive or stuff like this but like given enough time that we can spend together like these things absolutely don't matter and I know that like there's yeah but like in their mind they've got like a lot of preconceptions. I think the issue is people without realizing it in their mind they've got preconceptions that are associated with these types of traits and they don't know that they're not necessarily tied together so for instance I think like when a woman says that she wants a guy that's six feet tall what she's really saying is like I just want a guy who's like a masculine dude who's confident and insured himself and they probably associate shorter dudes with like lack of confidence maybe being more effeminate or other things but like if they met a guy that they genuinely got along with and ride with and like thought he met you know like most of the qualifications I don't think and I could be wrong but I don't think that a woman is gonna be like listen like this is working out so well and you're so good for me in so many different ways but like you're only five 10 and I just can't see there being like a future with us especially if she's like five four five three you know yeah for the women that are five seven five eight five nine you know it does become a little bit problematic because at some degree there is a desire to have your partner taller you and I will tell you on dating profiles every woman will write you know I'm five foot six and I wear five inch heels so you know it's like you have to be taller than what I'm wearing on heels but coming back to what you said earlier you know like come the idea that taller represents maybe a belief that you can be more of a protector and masculine look at Bruce Lee was five foot six at best and he could pick the shit out of 20 guys at once and the average Navy SEAL you know who are probably the baddest hombres on the planet are five foot nine is the average Navy SEAL because that's the average height of men so I mean those are some of the problems I see with women discriminating against men the other thing that we see in my age demographic is age discrimination particularly okay so most people over 50 years old budge on their age on their date profile sure okay most everybody does I did you know my partner did I have definitely seen some women on Tinder that are like 32 and I'm like honey no shot exactly you haven't seen the better end of 30s are like five years okay so where come on like you can find a couple years but yeah some people go a little wild when it comes to yeah yeah well they all and then they want to say well everybody tells me I'm looking 10 years younger well like who gives a shit what everybody else says you know what matters most is if what I think about you but for women in particular they discriminate on age because there's this once a man starts hitting closer to 60 you know he's less virile you know there's closer to death so I see things like I don't want to become his nurse or his first kind of saying so we see a lot of that and men discriminate on age too you know I mean most male ego like even myself included you know I wanted someone 10 or 15 years younger than me that's what my ego wants do I do most men get what they want no but they they right off on the bat on their profiles aren't even swiping on many cases a lot of women their own age because they have this perception that they can actually get someone younger and I see that happening where a lot of people aren't connecting for that reason and and just ultimately you know I think one of the problems is and not that I'm trying to I'm gonna talk about sex for a second you know I'm not a Puritan by any means I think people can have sex on a first date and have healthy happy relationships but I think people are having sex today at least in my age demographic before any real trust is built between two people I mean you barely know someone and you're being physically intimate and women bond with men you know even in their 40s 50s and 60s you can bond with someone before you actually ever really know who they are and I think that's one of the problems because there's this saying women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of commitment you know ultimately the many of sex you know your bargaining chip in the past used to be if you wanted to get laid you had to get married you know that was the bargaining chip and it shouldn't have been you know I'm not saying that that was right or wrong but today where I think people are being physically intimate well before they actually know who this person is yeah that's I mean yeah I there is I can see and I'm not trying to be Puritan here you know the thing that I would generally say is that like I think that people I think people treat sex a little bit too loosely sometimes like I think sexual revolution is cool the idea of having sex is awesome I like having sex I think it's fine but I worry sometimes that people are a little bit too lax today's a little about it like willing to jump into sexual relationships without like making sure like the guy is safe like the guy's not gonna do any creepier weird shit or be too pushy or stuff like that and then also I think like an encouragement that I give to women in general is if you are looking for a serious relationship it's probably better to like wait a little bit to fuck because like if a guy is just trying to like you know fuck you and leave yeah you know although although I could go both ways too maybe it's better to just fuck them immediately and then if they leave then it's like at least I didn't waste my time exactly you know it's interesting so I told you I had a hundred you know meet and greets my first year out of my divorce and you know back then you'd spend a little it like through the online dating first you'd text message each other a little bit then you'd have a couple phone calls you build a little bit of familiarity and if there's even just a little bit of sexual tension between two people before they physically meet you know what would happen is I'd go meet someone there would be a few cocktails we're both you know we both have our own homes you know we're not living with our parents like we did in our 20s and I found myself literally a third of the women probably had sex with me on the first date I mean I'm a guy you know I'm driven by my penis I mean even though I think I'm more evolved now but back then I certainly was and what happened Destiny was the minute I came and the next day this person that I really liked I was totally into I was experiencing all these great feelings all of a sudden I'm like why don't I like this person anymore and I don't mean that I dislike them I'm like why aren't I feeling I get driven I'm just feeling yeah and so I did a I started the study but you know the effects of limerence and the effects of lust and I think most people early in dating they're experiencing lust or limerence thinking that you have this real great soul mate kind of connection only to find out like after you know the next day I'm like why don't I like this person because the brain chemicals that were being released and you know through our body that dopamine head is gone at least for the man now for a woman they might be experiencing oxytocin during that physical bonding experience and find that they're actually attached to the guy where a guy can become detached yeah even for like casual sexual encounters I have now like if I'm thinking of meeting somebody or having somebody over I'll usually I'll masturbate on it and then when I finish I'll think like okay I finished what I still want this person around and then if the answer is no I usually just stop talking to the person because I'm like I shouldn't even have them over because I know that like it's not going to be a fun experience because I yeah so yeah even on casual encounters like because I like to be friends with people that I hook up with I don't want to just like like in my opinion yeah having like a one night stand where you like don't even want to talk to the person see the person it's just like that's not very much fun I don't think it's not very fulfilling yeah even on like a casual sex level but yeah no and I found that by the way going through this experience and again with the internet it was like the Wild West 15 years ago it was a whole different ball game it created this false sense of a kind of false sense of intimacy and what I found was I really desired really connect with someone who was like you said a friend if you will because it made the experience more enjoyable than just getting off and I know for myself you know I'm with you know I have one partner and that's it but it's more enriching because we have a deep connection but today and I don't know if you know who Esther Purrell is but she did a video some months back about artificial intimacy you know through the internet you know people are experiencing artificial intimacy believing that it's real intimacy sure yep yeah that doesn't surprise me at all yeah especially for the internet as we continue to substitute like real life connections and everything for just like online stuff yeah yeah by the way I just want your take on something that I've said before you know I don't think humans were designed to talk with their thumbs but now today you know text messaging is almost the preferred communication and I think it's something like 80 or 90 percent of communication is non-verbal so here people have built this entire you know world of you know with another human being literally just based on text messaging and not real interaction and I see this as a huge problem that's just getting even worse yeah I think this is actually a fundamental problem that's underlying a lot of societal ills right now that people don't talk about enough they're very keen to blame feminism or lower test offs around or I don't know the deep state or whatever but in reality I think the existence of social media has fundamentally altered a lot of the ways that we communicate with people I think for the worse in some ways like I always bring up like when I was in school social media existed to make your real life interactions better right like when Facebook came out the primary purpose was to was to see like parties and gatherings there were like four functions on Facebook it was like friends messaging I think you had your wall and then it was checking into events and that's that that's what everybody used Facebook for Facebook was used to check into parties and stuff and yeah but now it's like social media has kind of become like a replacement for a lot of real life interaction which is probably not good well isn't and by the way please forgive me but you know you're a gamer and I suspect a lot of young men you know get into gaming and they're not actually I I suspect and I don't know you well enough to know you actually interact with people outside of the dozen hours you spend streaming you're actually interacting with people I think a lot of young men are so you know tied into their the tube if you will that they're not actually physically interacting with people yeah I mean I agree that's why I've always said like I'm really lucky that I have like a foot in both worlds because when I grew up the internet wasn't really a thing even though I play games a lot like I was still a very social real-life social person and the idea of today growing up and basically having the entirety of your social life being online is not good yeah no and and again I don't know if it's gonna get I see a lot of my son always felt like I grew up without the internet right and he says oh there's all these great benefits of the internet you can research information you can connect with people but you know back when I grew up be like we went out and played in the playground you know we actually interacted with people because and by the way for meeting girls if you will because I mean I remember you know in my 20s you know what I did Friday and Saturday night it was we go out to you know we go out to places where you could dance and meet people I think especially with COVID now people I wonder if it's just if it's this is going to be I don't want to say the downfall because that does that sound so dramatic but the the real challenge for human pair bonding is are you spending enough time in the real world versus through your thumbs if you will yeah I think we'll figure it out I think a society has gotten like very flexible today we can adapt to difficulties like really well I think eventually it'll get bad enough to where people will realize like okay something needs to change significantly and then we'll start making technologies and progress economically in that direction and then the social behavior will follow I think but maybe I'm an optimist yeah well I'm going to share your optimism as well so um any other questions you have for me um no I think that's probably it yeah what did you what was I'm so curious what was the first video your son showed you with me thank you oh oh god it was probably I mean shoot it could have been a Jordan Peterson video it could have been it was I'm sure it was politically motivated or what is a woman or whatever all that stuff you know by the way I I'll share with you you're you're an incredibly intelligent man I mean you have the capacity to you know do five things at once which shocks me at times um I will tell you I watched you can I share something with you that just my perception of you whatever you want yeah go for it it was I think there were two women you were debating it had to do with abortions and oh god right to life and all that sort of thing yeah I sometimes wonder if you this you know if you just get a real kick out of just fucking with people um I mean it depends on it please forgive that way I framed it but I think you get to just where I was going yeah I understand it I mean it depends on the concept or I'm not the concept depends on the context of the conversation that conversation that I just recently I realized like about like 20 minutes in that like this is fucked so it's just figuring out how to manage like the meta conversation because yeah that's yeah oh you know what now that you just said that to me that makes sense because in the beginning I felt that you were engaged but then I I could literally see you just go eh you know what I'm just gonna just how can I again and I say the term fuck with them but just play with it um because I you know they were so rich it on their side and they weren't really I felt like there wasn't really giving an opportunity for you to accept that what you said to you or what you said to them excuse me it's true for you it doesn't mean it's the truth it's just it felt true for you but for them their truth was the absolute truth and I suspect that's not to be really frustrating for you because you know the whole idea of debating is giving an argument that maybe sways someone to go oh maybe there is some validity to that but when you butt up against those people I think sometimes you at least what I've observed is you throw up your arms or not that's not yeah I mean like there's like once you realize that like the rational reasonable argument is done then you just kind of shift into another mode because you're not going to sit there and try to pound you know somebody with logic or like oh let's debate this blah blah blah when they're just like trying to get you know tiktok clips or personal attacks whatever it's like okay well I'm not going to play this game if you're not playing this game so we'll switch you know and we'll switch games I guess yeah well dear let me ask you this though because I'm curious and I don't think I've I've witnessed I mean I've watched a ton of your content just so you know um I haven't really seen you have a really good debate with someone where there was a really good exchange of ideas where you actually were listening to the other person you know I watched Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris have a conversation some years ago it was like a four-day event and I really appreciated that these two people really listened to the other person's point of view and and and really tried to articulate from their perspective and I don't feel like you get that chance I would say probably the best recent in the past year at the band I've had are you familiar with the guy called Matt Dillahunty no I'm not um I super disagree with his justification for abortion he argues bodily autonomy and we have a I would I would sort of be a really good conversation um and a live debate panel but um those don't pick up as many views because people like to people like to shut against me but that was I think that was a really high quality conversation yeah I know but it's gotta get frustrating for you at times because I know you can go toe to toe with the sneak goes of the world of the fresh and fits and the pearl just pearly things but you just gotta I'm assuming here just watching you you're just like oh my god this is just exhausting doing the same thing over and over again I feel like you desire really good conversations with people where you can debate your ideas and you're actually you know they both parties are actually listening to the other side yeah I kind of when I got into things I kind of figured it would be like 50 50 like crazy convos and good convos but it's more like 98 to um which gets annoying but yeah I mean like the reality is is most people don't reason themselves into positions most people get there through a variety of other means so that's basically what you have to meet people at you know but yeah I mean that's just the reality well when I got my channel started there was this guy Kevin Samuels that was oh god so and and I was watching you know I'm just observing it from the perspective of well how's he growing his channel whether the more controversial you are and the more you're in people's face though you know the the more views you'd get and to some degree I I try to incorporate kind of a rationale of both on my channel and look at I'm small compared to some but a hundred fifty thousand eight to you know isn't something to sneeze at and it generates a you know a fair amount of ad revenue from it too um but I'm looking for better conversation so when I do when my son says uh hey watch this one with destiny I'm like okay because I know he's vetted he knows me well enough to know that I like what you have to say but I like it when you're really getting a chance to speak and when I watch those you know the fresh and fit and just early things I mean they were so trying to not that anyone could bully you uh but they were trying to yeah and yeah it just turns out that like ad homes and personal tax is silly yeah fights like that yeah I know what you might know I will tell you though that Jesse Peterson was hilarious yeah that was it was an experience my son and I go back and forth are you a beta male kind of yeah and I have my fans too yeah well I don't think of you that by the way did you say you're a sigma male like jokingly but yeah I know but I actually want to look don't look that up I was curious uh but I think you happen to have a really good um I think you have a good understanding of your and I don't like the terms masculine and feminine I like to look at people from a personhood perspective but I think you have a really good balance of if we were going to characterize people that way that you have a really good balance in that sense and it's one of the reasons why I like watching you because you're not rigid I mean sometimes you could be rigid but yeah but for the most part you really do try to see two sides of an argument and that's one of the reasons why I enjoy watching you well thanks yeah I try my best I try to encourage others to do the same so yeah yeah so um where um for people that are like looking for your stuff where should they what do you want to direct them uh well I'm just going to send you in the chat box uh my youtube channel if you could send people to my youtube channel I'd appreciate that I mean even though my demographic is a bit older than yours I I do think um and by the way it's jonathan asley j-o-n-a-t-h-o-n-a-s-l-a-y um I'd like to think that you know younger people can get a lot of value from speaking to people who have been around the block a bit more than this you know like what you talked about with those guys I mean how many of these guys have had a relationship that lasted you know a year let alone a week um you know so I'd like to think that my content really helps um you know younger people as well as people in my age demographic sure yeah did you get a link in the chat box um let me look for it yeah I say yeah um yeah I agree especially well I think I'd like to agree yeah some people will if you see like a bunch of older people complaining about the same thing maybe you can see like oh maybe that's something I can avoid in the future although I'm pretty stubborn and I have to learn through experience so but yeah you want to hear something funny if you got a few extra minutes yeah go for it um I I went through a divorce court um and we actually had to go to family court um and when you go to family court there's usually like four or five couples on the the morning docket and four and five couples in the afternoon docket so and you all have to be there at eight o'clock yeah and um and so but you might not go up in front of the judge until like 11 a.m. or even new well yeah somewhere between you know 11 11 30 the last couple so I we happen to be the third out of the fourth and I'm listening to the other couples talk to the judge right and sharing their perspective and I actually stayed for the couple after um my my ex-wife and I were in front of the judge and I thought if you really want to learn a lot about relationship spend a day into a family court yeah yes you can really because honestly you can actually see where the pitfalls lie within humans if you actually kind of see where they kind of connect the dots to some degree and again they're giving their own narratives in both cases but I thought it was fascinating and I think you'd be behoove people to actually go to family court for a day or two just to listen to what causes most endings of a relationship and not pick a side but just be there as an observer um it's just something you might get a kick out of here and yeah I mean that definitely um that that definitely wouldn't surprise me you I've been to court a couple times and you can you definitely see a lot of stuff that you wouldn't ordinarily so yeah no and outside of the the TV reality TV shows of divorce court um one of things I there's a person I follow the Gottmans I don't know if you're familiar with John Gott John and Julie Gottman oh yeah of course yeah big relationship yeah yeah and and what's interesting they have a book um how to make a successful seven principles for successful marriage eight dates which are eight critical conversations to have in the early stage of the dating um because they've observed where relationship goes wrong I think it behoove people would would behoove them to maybe find out what is the cause of most ending relationships and kind of be prepared for it before you ever get there I think I think one of the naive things happens you asked me about my age demographic is a lot of people got married in their 20s got divorced in their 40s and 50s and they have no clue about how to date you know 20 years in the future from when they started but more importantly how to build a relationship with someone because they had for lack of a better word oh um not a failed marriage but a marriage that was probably not built on a very strong foundation to begin with so I think it would behoove you know especially millennials and gen z's or what not to really study if they really want the healthy relationship even the incels out there in the world maybe instead of watching the Andrew take to the world maybe read some Gottman work so they actually know how to be in a relationship and then get Jordan Peterson's book that you know and only to the extent that the 12 rules of life are pretty good things to have in your life and then go out and try to be in relationship I think it would be really interesting I really want to see like Dr. Gottman on like fresh and fit I think that would be a really funny show I don't know what I'm looking like but yeah no I know but you know those guys will fully the Gottman's and they yeah I would love to see that there is a psychologist Sasha something or other she's grew up in England she's from the Middle East she's trying to have these conversations and she's been on these shows but she also kind of parrots a little bit of their narrative which but I would love to see on these shows you know a whole different age demographic of guests that actually have their shits together yeah people are actually in successful relationships too like no more people that have like hooked up with 50 girls and don't have a significant other or been dating for two months like show me people that have been dating for years and years that like know how to yeah it would be so much more interesting and healthy I think for a lot of these people yeah so really quickly you know when I heard Pearl say you know all these you know only fangirls I actually was curious how many only fans creators are out there and I believe it's only I think it's two million actual creators okay so of the eight billion on the and that's worldwide right so actual only and I could be mistaken at least that's what the internet said um you know that's such a still small percentage of women who are actually have an only thing to count you know but they say the downfall of relationships are all the women are on only fans I'm like really like 90 98 women out of 100 don't have an only fan to count sure and it's probably the majority of those are probably posted one or two pictures and then like never posted again right like the vast majority yeah exactly like super successful yeah although my son will kill me for this but his ex-girlfriend actually has one account okay so you don't have to out your son like that oh no no he's gonna kill me but he actually makes let's put you this way her taxes was a seven million or excuse me seven figure checks of the government I mean she really I HLD hold on there's not that many girls to fit the bill on that okay I know well no no no I don't I know it's just anime stuff I don't think it's even sexual but I know he's gonna kill me because he's listening to this right now he will bring his up well he'll thankfully he loves me enough to give me some grace I hope but I do believe that such a small percentage of women who are actually making that kind of living but you know you know more power to them to some degree you know it's a it's maybe in this limited period of time you can build some net worth from that so more power to them anyway that's just a perception I have and I know he's gonna kill me but like I said thankfully we have that kind of relationship where we can talk about we can give shit to one another yeah all right well oh well I was so grateful you gave me this time or at least I had an opportunity to talk to you I and I appreciate you know sharing my content with people as well as that I'd really appreciate and I'll just keep watching you and if there's another chance to speak I'd love that opportunity as well yeah if anything ever pops up that you super disagree with or that I talk to somebody feel like I miss something like yeah shoot me a message and we can yeah chat okay I'll do that cool all right well hey listen I really appreciate the conversation thanks I appreciate it as well that's me yeah have a good one I'll talk to you too thanks for that