 George Bruno with a 21 report the European edition were in Warsaw, Poland, and I'm talking today with Jack Donovan welcome Thanks. Yeah, how'd it go in there today? Oh Good good. It just presented my you know biggest book the way of men. Yeah classic book. Yeah Yeah, it has you know, like I said been translated into a bunch of languages. Yeah, it's been very influential around the world someone actually accused me of of Changing the election in Brazil recent Thing there were an article written about like how I'm influencing men in Brazil. Yeah, I'm like I think it's a little far-fetched right. I called my dad and told him if he needs anything handled in a foreign government I'm this guy now Information does make a difference definitely If you could sum up the way of men In a few sentences, what would you say? It's the primal virtues that men needed from each other in a survival scenario, which is you know 250 300,000 years of our history and It's the way we've always judged each other Strength courage mastery and honor the tactical virtues things that men needed from each other in an emergency. Yes These are the things we still look for in men today And I think that we have to understand what masculinity is before we can talk about how to save it We have to understand what we're trying to save What happens if there isn't an emergency? Is there a way of men version of emergency preparedness? Well, I mean honestly, I mean that's you are preparing for an emergency if you're surrounding yourself with a group of guys who are Working together because that's three quarters. You know a lot of preparedness is being able to communicate and all that And having a skill set That you can tap into but that's that's obviously one use of having a group of men around is being prepared for an emergency and having someone to call you know modern society is very atomized and people were very they have very superficial friendships and You know if there was a disaster a lot of people don't even have anyone to call. Yeah, you know They don't really have any men that they can count on in their lives. You're right It's interesting on social media for instance, let's just say Facebook Your connections on Facebook are called friends. I've heard people say well. I've got 3,500 friends on Facebook and I always kind of chuckled at that word. They're not really friends. They're just right someone that you Lektronically clicked on with a loan you money. Yeah 3,500 people $100 or be there when something goes down in the morning. Sure. Yeah, wait a minute. I thought we were friends, right? Right, right, right But yeah, no, I mean, I don't think that those are actual friends. Obviously, they're just associations. Yeah Yeah, I mean, I've I've whatever almost 25,000 Instagram followers and I'm pretty sure I can't depend on them exactly much You know, and then I mean that's a it almost has reinvented the word friend in the dictionary the word friend in 2019 is different than the word friend, you know in 1940 and then the the new word unfriended I got unfriended. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I always thought that was interesting to get Unfriended on social media. Yeah. Yeah Well, it means you said something that upsets someone usually. Yeah That's a yeah, I can't be friends with you social media. Yeah The funny thing is when you have people who can't be friends with you on social media But they wouldn't be friends with you in real life. Yeah, what's that all about? They can't be associated with you, right? They're you know, you're too scary. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had that happen in the past But yeah, and then the whole concept of getting blocked that whole Scenario someone so blocked me. Yeah. Oh, I block I delete and block like a Lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just cuz If you're causing me trouble, I don't have time for that. Yeah at this point, you know, like You know, I mean it's one thing if you're If it's a longtime friend of yours. Yeah now has deleted and blocked you that's kind of a big deal Yeah, but most people it's like, well, okay, you caused me hassle. I don't need to deal with you, right, right? You know, I think there's a very democratic mindset on the internet that people think that Their opinion should matter to everyone mm-hmm and You know, you can't take everyone's opinion seriously. You have to choose whose opinion you actually take seriously Tribes are interesting. I know tribes and associations. I know At the patriarch event I Had sitting across from me Mike Sernovich for one interview another interview Stefan Mullinew Interesting and I had two kinds of responses to that. Yeah, one response was I'm unfriending you because you interviewed Stefan Mullinew. Okay The other one was I'm friending you because right and it was very polarizing. Yeah, some people said I can't believe you're Associating with him. Other people said, all right, you're associating with him. Yeah, and I thought that was interesting how People were taking sides just based upon the person who was sitting across from me at the table Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's everything kind of an association spear at this point in the media and so forth and so Yeah Association smear. Yeah interesting. What an interesting concept. Oh, oh, yeah, I mean that that's I mean that's what most people do It's like you hung out with this person. Therefore, you're bad. I mean, you know, I'd like to say You know a few years ago I've spoken at different events that I didn't agree with everybody who was at the event. Yes, but you know, I grew up in America You were allowed to actually talk to people who have different ideas than you and not necessarily have the same value But you're allowed to share ideas. We both have shared stages with people that we don't agree with. Yeah Yeah, and you know and unfortunately like today and it's a very gossip-derving culture that yes Oh, you were seen with this person and that means that you believe everything that they believe Yeah, you know, and that's just a way of demonizing people and it's really childish. It's very yeah schoolgirl kind of mentality All right, so we have an association smear. Is there what is the opposite of that? Is there an association? Elevation can can we improve our? public image or appearance or reputation by appearing with People that Are good for our reputation or are they working the negative? No, no, no, I mean that's what people do all the time I mean, yeah, absolutely. You can uh, I mean that's why people want their pictures taken with like celebrities and so forth And they're like, oh, I met so-and-so. Well, you talked to them about nothing for one minute But yeah, it's they want to have their picture with the person And I definitely do think that you know associating yourself with And then it becomes a tricky game like if you have a bad reputation, you know, whatever bad means Today because it changes all the time right or prevailing morality is But if you have a bad reputation and you are then photographed with someone who has the opposite reputation It's a danger for them because then you're pulling them to that side But it's helping you. Yeah, and it's definitely a game And I think that anyone who has any kind of public image actually has to play that game A little bit, uh, you know, yeah, who do you want to be in a picture with? Is definitely a modern problem because there's a lot of pictures forever Kind of kind of people to have a short memory though Yeah, and it's you know, there are things that were really important to people about any given person like five years ago But then they can dig them up some later if they want to use it against you but uh You know they as far as for the latest scandal actually people were pretty short memory for it. Yeah Yeah I saw something in the news today Which I rarely ever watch the news because I I like living a stable life and not being on a roller coaster But there was a a beauty pageant winner That had her crown stripped from her Because of a tweet a racist tweet And I saw the tweet and I'm thinking there's nothing really racist about that like yeah And there's this strange Thought police running around we're punishing people for what they think in the past We used to punish people for what they do right now just for what they think Or what they say they think or what they what they accidentally said once or like uh, you know what the They said that that was then interpreted at a later date by different moral standards. Yeah, I mean like there was that Yeah, I think the supreme court justice or whatever And you know Was dragged through the mud in the media for doing things that were normal when you were a frat boy in the 80s Yes, you know like like like Everything he did was socially acceptable when he was doing it. Yes, but you know times have changed So now it's not socially acceptable. So now we're going to judge people by a back standard Right, which is kind of ridiculous, you know, like he wouldn't do that now because he knows that he would get in trouble Right, but uh, you know, and you know, that's How things were that yeah It's interesting it used to be um I remember with president clinton I I smoked pot once but I didn't inhale Right. Okay. I remember so he qualified that And then uh, barack obama was president and then there's pictures of him floating around smoking a joint Yeah, and he was cool. Yeah, just literally You know 20 years earlier. Yeah, it was condemned. Oh, yeah. Now it's cool. Yeah. Yeah and that's actually That whole argument really is pretty fascinating in the way that And and kind of horrible in the way that society's morality shifts so quickly How many people actually went to jail? During that time for marijuana and then all of a sudden it's cool. I thought about yeah I mean, it's a there are people who rotted in jails for years because of this thing that is now cool Yeah, you know, but it wasn't cool then and so like all these people lost, you know The functional years of their lives. Yes because of that and it's you know, it's sad But I mean, I guess that's always been that way. Yeah, you know, I mean that and you pissed off the church in the 14th century You're gonna have a bad day What is the what is the 21st century version of pissing off the church? What do you think? Oh, racism. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's definitely the ultimate taboo right now. Yeah, I know any kind of Racism I mean sexism comes after that. Yeah, you know any kind of racism I think is the new You know thing you're gonna be dragged through the mod for right, you know, and which is ridiculous because you know, you know It's it's very hypocritical in the way that it's handled but In that it always was right. I mean, I guess the church was pretty hypocritical in the way they handled that as well You know, I mean, it's just a new witch hunt, you know, all right So there's a new 007 coming And it's a black woman sure and my comment on twitter was like if you don't like it you're not only Sexist, but you're racist. So they you know, all they need is a 007 who is Black female and in a wheelchair, you know for the ultimate like also lesbian and yeah I mean just like they're throwing things at us. Yeah, that aren't necessary And they're making an issue out of something that really should be nothing They're they're creating enemies. Well They're creating Controversy Yeah, I mean they're creating controversy which is getting them in the news And that's really all it is. I mean they they want attention and they want to push That agenda, but also because it's fashionable. Yeah, it's not because it's dangerous Yeah, I mean if it was dangerous, they wouldn't do it interesting fashionable versus Dangerous. Yeah, there's no risk in it. Yeah, there's no risk whatsoever. In fact, yeah, like you said The decision is already you can't criticize it And so they're they're doing something that's going to give them a lot of attention But can't be criticized whatsoever. It's not something. Yeah, gosh That happens a lot in the hollywood world. What about in What would you say in like everyday life and politics and so forth? What is the Is there a version of that? in politics in the news I mean I Am with you on not watching the news I don't watch the news at all. I've rarely Yeah, really been keeping eye on what's going on. Yeah, you know, I I started doing it personally because I found that as a writer I wanted to write about things that were still going to matter in five years Yes, you know, but almost everything that everybody's upset about they're not going to even remember in You know a month not knee-jerk reacting to things. Yeah Yeah, and so I didn't want to look back on 10 years of writing and be like, oh Well, here are a bunch of stupid conflicts that didn't matter that I commented on right You know, it seems just seemed like an empty thing. I mean, do you do get to play worse where all of a sudden people Are talking about the world and you actually don't know what's going on at all, right? Yeah, which is sometimes okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't mind being Some people have accused me of being in my own little bubble. I don't mind at all I don't mind. I don't I don't need pop culture. Yeah, I really don't need it because it's a roller coaster Yeah, yeah, yeah It changes from day to day. Yeah. Yeah, and how you react to it Um Well, you know, like what is uh Acceptable 30 years ago is not acceptable now and vice versa. Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, it's it like you said it's a roller coaster and it's a roller coaster that really doesn't matter I mean it's people moving products. Yeah, I mean entertainment is a product Yeah, and so they're moving this product and then and they do it by creating gossip and that's You know, we live in a very female world And so it's a female mentality and so everything is very gossip driven Like it's no longer achievement or a certain German. It's gossip driven And so I think that that's most of the culture and even even sports is like that now Yes, you know, like you live at ESPN and three quarters of what they talk about is their the moral outrage of whatever Some athlete did it's no longer whether their performance. It's it's now about You know, someone said something or did something and then we're going to talk about that for four hours Right, you know, and it's it's very it's a it's a gossipy kind of feminine mentality as well. Yeah What would be a more uh masculine Approach to that I mean, I like I said achievement Meritocracy achievement and focusing on the achievement of things I think is is far more masculine than focusing on you know, whether it's you know going with the latest trend or whether it's You know whether who is so-and-so dating and and uh, you know, did they say something that was morally offensive? I mean You're old enough to remember a little house in the prairie. Yeah Like the nely character who's always like telling on people and it's like the bat the nely character I feel like that's all of society at this point. They're like this little moral outrage of this Interesting person that's really horrible. Yeah, really actually there. It's a horrible person But they're always like feeding into the gossip and and tattletailing on different people and trying to get people in trouble And that's kind of what the society has become What did men walk away with today from your message? What do you think? Well, I hope they walked away with an idea of a better sense of what masculinity is And it has always been Versus, you know, a lot of different cultural definitions that come and go Because that's what I've tried to focus on. I like personally I like to Yeah, talk about things that are eternal And uh, I think masculinity is something has been around for all of our species Yeah, we probably got a lot of it from the chimps. Yeah And so it's been part of our history forever. And uh, so these these are, you know elemental old things that you know have stayed with us for you know, all of our history and I think that If they can go back and take that into their lives rather than, you know The latest trend I think, you know, it's it's centering Here we are in the heart of central europe. Is europe any different than the united states? What have you noticed? Um, well, I mean the countries are different from country to country. I mean, I spent a good bit of time in germany and uh This in poland is a little bit different But uh I mean poland it seems to be a little bit more You know, they I found it actually like the people who were behind the veil of communism Have had less time to get stupid Yeah, you know, they've had I mean, I also heard that in germany like eastern germany is supposed to be a little bit more conservative Yeah than than western germany and uh, they there's a little bit They're a little bit more interested in you know keeping men men and women women and so forth. So I'm writing that down They've had less time to get stupid I mean just off. I mean there's so much truth in that. Yeah, well, they they haven't been spoiled as long You know, they they haven't been spoiled by the west Spoiled by the west explain that. Well, I mean with prosperity. Yeah, you know in terms of uh You know, I talked about it in the way of men, uh, not my presentation today, but uh The difference between chimps and bonobos was a big comparison that I made in the book and you know Bonobo apes that they've always said are the peaceful apes They may or may not be that could be a fiction as well that they created but uh, uh, the reason that they were peaceful was because They lived in a piece of plenty they are they didn't have any competition for resources. Yeah, and they just lived in this really, uh You know lush area with tons of food and they never had to fight for it a hunt or anything like that They just and and that's the way modern man is they they never have to hunt or fight They just have to just consume And uh, because everything is done for them and available to them Yes, and uh, you know, I think you know, like maybe more eastern europe people who were you know behind the wall for a while Uh, you know, they had to stand in line for bread not so very long ago Not very long ago, right? Yeah, and uh, you know, whereas, you know in the west we've Had several generations of extreme prosperity And so it's easy to you know focus on you know, what gender am I now? Yeah, because you didn't have to worry about You know When your next meal was going right? Yeah. Yeah, I do remember Stories standing in line three hours for a loaf of bread. Yeah. Yeah Wow, that's amazing. Where can people find out more about your work? Uh, I'm I'm really big on instagram. I mean, that's kind of my main Place where I put information out. Uh, my instagram is at start the world It's been my slogan for years and years now And uh, you know, obviously I have a website as well at jackdashdonovan.com Okay, excellent A great conversation with jack donovan. Thank you jack. Cool. Thank you