 Yeah, we're back with some tech today. This is ThinkTech. I'm Jay Fidel. We're talking about ThinkTech Tech Talks. I can say that fast five times. And we have with us our old friend Attila Suresh of Cylenda, and he's in Control Central there in Cylenda here in Honolulu. Hi, Attila. Say hi. Hey, thanks for having me on, Jay. Thank you for being available for this, because this is really a hot item. It's about Pegasus and NSO out of Israel. And it's like all over the world now, and it's a fair chance. It's not if you're a journalist or a government official or I guess a senior person of some kind. There's a fair chance it's on your phone or coming to your phone listening and hearing and copying everything you have to say and do. That's a nice thing, isn't it? Well, it's certainly weird that it's being done for profit, and it's so open and so blatant, and Apple not doing anything about it. I saw something called MVT, and it was a device or rather a software function, software piece, developed by Amnesty International, who has been following the story since at least the spring when it first came up. That would be the spring of 2020. It's spring of this year, April of this year. And anyway, this does not solve the problem, and it works better on iPhone than Android. Although it works, so something said on Android, it works better on iPhone, as I recall. It's called MVT, and MVT can tell you if you have it, or if you have had it, because it leaves little traces when it does its dirty business. But that doesn't stop it from operating. It only warns you that you have had it. And so I'm not sure that's all that valuable. I'm sure there are people who are working on patches right now, but it's hard to patch something that is silent and deadly and doesn't require you to click or press anything for it to work. Pegasus is really a Braconian. Well, it's a zero click zero day bug that's being exploited by these guys. So the problem is that they created and exploit Pegasus, and they essentially sold it to the highest bidder. And it allowed authoritarian governments to spy on anyone with an Apple device. And Apple markets itself as this closed ecosystem that's safe and secure that your grandma can use, and it's something that journalists and politicians have picked up before its recognition of being a safe product to you. Well, unbeknownst to them, the attack factor for this comes from any source. So what that means is that if they did want to into your phone and listen in and monitor all of your communication, including encrypted communications by the way, all they have to do is send a text message to your number, or send an email with a link, or send a notification for a game that you may have downloaded, or send a notification from a dating app, et cetera. And no interactions required on your part, boom, they're in. Backdoor. So it should happen without your involvement whatsoever. That's pretty scary. You don't have to be at the phone, the phone doesn't have to be operating. I don't think, right? It can be just dormant, just sitting there. And this will be able to surveil you, camera and audio, to be able to infiltrate all your data, and generally wreak havoc with your life. Well, you mentioned Amnesty International earlier, and the reason that they're so interested is because they send out people to rural areas in place of conflict, and with the intent of being able to help and serve the civilian population who's by no fault of their own being victimized by whatever's going on in politics or whatever. So unfortunately, those are the ones being monitored, which is why they took an interest. In fact, of that recent breach that came out this week of 50,000 phone numbers, many of them were found in France, and they checked in many of those devices, and they found, I think over a third of them had the devices spyware sitting on it, monitoring their phone logs, text messages, apps that they were doing, and the geolocation. So there's a lot of data that they can gather about that. And NSO, they advertise themselves as a surveillance company. It's not like they're out there doing any sort of false advertising, saying we can surveil these folks. And the problem is that all these security researchers are now asking the big question of why. Why is it that Apple is not stepping up and patching this bug? In fact, they pushed out a whole bunch of patches just yesterday, about 40 of them and 37 of them were for the iPhone themselves. And those I've attached as many of them allow remote code execution. So that's remote backdoor access directly to the iPhone. So they're finding stuff all the time. But the problem is that Apple is kind of this closed ecosystem. There's not a lot of transparency. They're not sharing how their code operates. They're holding it very close to the chest. And I believe that's partly a business decision that they don't want any sort of income is to come and throw them as this unique product that's making a difference in the community. But at the end of the day, we're all going to pay for their arrogance and for their lack of transparency. And that's why the cybersecurity community is pretty upset about it. Yeah. Well, we should all be upset about it. I mean, you know, Apple's had a spotty history in terms of privacy. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I remember the terrorists in California. The FBI wanted Apple to crack the phone because they believed that there were other terrorists in the same terrorist plot that were identified on the phone and Apple would not do it. Even though there was a question of national security. Interestingly enough, finally they went to Israel. They found a company properly like NSO to crack the phone. They had to pay money for that. And you said, you know, the highest bidder. But you know what, they were just selling it to governments. That's the way it started. Minnesota was selling it to governments and governments were ostensibly using it for legitimate purposes. Although, you know, it depends on how the government operates. So what kind of government we have and whether it's an authoritarian government. They're out of control, out of hand somehow. It's not hard to understand. Somehow it got loosed from those governments to individuals and then to the bad guys. And now you're right. I mean, and say take sub-Saharan Africa where there are all these, you know, activists and people who would like to prosecute human rights violations and atrocities and all that. And the people who have committed the atrocities now have the opportunity to identify them and to listen to what they're doing and listening to all the information they're gathering to prosecute them in the International Court of Criminal Justice. And so I can see how governments, authoritarian governments might like it, but also governments that are really not legit might like it. Revolutionaries might like it. And there's no exception. And the consequences are deadly. Because if they don't like what you're saying, if they find out that you're trying to prosecute them, run them down in some way, you know, it's like a it's like a hop to rob a story. If you're after them, well, now they know what you're saying, where you're going, who you're working with, who your informants are. It's like the whole thing is so talk about transparency. We have transparency now, don't we? Well, and what worries me is that there's usually not just one, not just one ace in the whole type product out there. I mean, the only reason that this is really making headline news right now is because that list was accidentally leaked over 50,000. And you know who was on the list, by the way, there's a 50,000 telephone numbers. There's a lot of people who are on the list who haven't said they're on the list, but Macron, the president of France was on the list. And he went into orbit over that. Because, you know, he's got all kinds of diplomatic issues and issues that are classified that he's talking on his phone. And oh, the France is in a state over this and his government is in a state having emergency meetings, as if there's some technological solution that they could grab and stop this. But I don't think they can. It strikes me just to throw an idea at you that the way to stop it is to build an entirely new operating system for a smartphone, entirely new operating system. It's not going to have the same functionality, but at least theoretically, it won't be vulnerable to this. What do you think? Well, you remember those Nokia brick phones, candy bar phones? There's something to be said about the simplicity of a product that's just kind of bulletproof and does what it needs to do. You know, we have a lot of freedoms and a lot of advantages. We get with smart devices, but of course, the more we use them, the more our security becomes at risk. It's hard to imagine a world where we go back to analog. So I agree. Some security is going to need to happen. We offer, for example, mobile device monitoring and management. So it allows the kind of police this kind of activity on your organizational level, where we watch from unusual traffic coming in and out of phones. And yeah, you'll see unusual traffic coming in and out of phone. And it's hard to figure out what's what sometimes. Yeah, what they've taken or who they've taken it from. They may be leaving little scraps behind. So the MVT product can find that. But I think it's really hard to identify who's been victimized and what's been taken. And for how long it's been taken. And in any event, what can be done about it? So if I come to you and I say, you know, I'm really worried about this because I have had conversations. I have data on my phone or through my phone that is dangerous. That is highly classified. Maybe I'm a military person. Maybe I'm a law enforcement officer. Maybe I'm a corporate guy who is talking about, you know, information that's really important to the company, proprietary information. And I don't want to stole it, not by anybody here or anywhere else in the world. Because this is global, isn't it? So what's your advice to me? What do I do? Do I throw the phone in the sink? Do I start doing landline? Can I escape this by going to my computer and doing, by the way, I don't think we chat, you know, we chat, Snapchat, whatever, they're vulnerable just the same way. Is there a way I can continue my communication? What's your advice to me to tell it? Well, you've hit on an important point. So first of all, you mentioned how law enforcement and military are concerned about these kind of issues occurring. I can tell you right now, they are occurring and they are concerns in both those departments. We've had some first hand experience with that. And it's not, it's not something that will completely easy answers. There is some good guidance that we can look at. So there's something called CMMC. This is Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification Framework. And that is used for all contractors who handle something called CUI, which is Controlled and Classified Information. That's essentially secret, top secret, or just confidential data that the DOD is asking contractors and subcontractors to work with in order to fulfill their needs of a project or a bit. Now, that data needs to be protected in a certain way. And those guidelines follow through not just computers, but to mobile phones as well. So for instance, for mobile phones, it's pretty important not to have a mobile phone that's used for personal and business use. Let's start there. If you are someone in law enforcement or private security or someone where you have important confidential data, not necessarily government data, but it can be, you know, PCI data, it can be HIPAA data, anything that could potentially be considered sensitive. That data is now separated from your primary cell phone, which can be used for, you know, Jouled and Netflix and Hulu and all the other stuff you might be doing on it, and a separate one for work. The good news about all this technology and how it's everywhere means that it's also not as expensive as it used to be to have a couple cell phones. Our HPR streaming comes from Chaminade University, launching its new one-year MBA with online and alternating weekend on-campus classes featuring NA. Brought to you by ThinkTech. Well, you know, my phone was on Do Not Disturb. Go figure. Maybe they were trying to send me a message. It's okay. Sometimes I'm recording my videos, you know, the stupid ones where I catch fire and all that stuff, and I'll get a scam phone call at the same time from like Jamaica for a car warranty. So yeah, no, these things. We're an open book. All of us. It just shows you the small example of what the technology will allow in on you. Anyway, please continue. Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's some really good guidance in terms of how to do data segregation. The CMMD is the most probably well-documented federal standard that all prime and subcontractors are now being forced to follow. And it does have some great guidance in terms of what you need to use on your mobile device versus not use on your mobile device. Especially if you're using this for confidential type of information, there's a good chance that you're working for an organization or a group. And having a mobile device management policy in place for that group is pretty important. That means that the IT department or management is going to dictate which apps can go on that phone, right? Have they been vetted and verified as being safe? How is your communication plan going to be with your third party vendors? Are you going to use an app that allows secure communication? Or are you going to use an open email program, which is essentially the same as sending a postcard in the mail. So those kind of restrictions and monitoring and security on those devices that are hand confidential data, that's a great way to do it. Separation of church and state. Keep them separate both physically and with lockdowns. Well, you know, it sounds like adaptation, which is by definition sort of temporary. And that if you really wanted to you know, stop this, you'd have to get to the root of it. It's an easy or come up with a patch that would, you know, directly confront it and stop it in its tracks. And I am reminded, and I want to throw this at you as an idea to tell it. I think it was World War Two, maybe later, where somebody came up with this really smart idea of changing frequencies. Both the pilot of the plane was talking to home base, or whatever, you know, the military operative in the field was talking to home base. We don't want that compromised. So we have we have a change frequency. Now encryption is not good enough, because Pegasus can get right through encryption doesn't stop it at all. But they have to have the telephone number. They have to know that it's Macron's telephone number to really make hay on it. I mean, if it went to some kind of silly telephone number that went nowhere, they'd be wasting time, even if they had an automatic way to, you know, just cycle through all the telephone numbers in the world. They have to have a telephone number. Now if you had a system sort of like that changing frequencies system, where, you know, it would change telephone numbers all the time, change telephone numbers every time you made a call, or every time a call was into you, it would be using another telephone number. Same idea. Wouldn't that work getting them off your back? It certainly would help. And Jay, I'm not sure if you've come across anyone under the age of 10, but they don't use phones the way that you might think. You know, they use WhatsApp, they use Messenger Kids, they're using FaceTime. So the communication becomes digital at that point. And it's peer to peer, meaning it's device to device. And that usually end in encryption on both sides. So yeah, I think the idea, maybe the idea that you're getting at is that just traditional phone numbers themselves are becoming less and less important. True. Part of this is phone numbers, but you're right. Part of it is, it's just going to be a digital, like a wireless connection. And in that case, you know, I would throw the same idea at you. It's got to be on some coded connection. Some, you know, you can identify with a series of numbers, digits, what have you. And if I change that every time, then maybe I can shut some of this out. I know it's a technical question, but I'm thinking that there's got to be an answer here somewhere to at least have those guys, you know, thrown off the track. That's exactly how the dark web works, by the way. So there isn't just, you know, this isn't just a website you bring up www.whatever. It's a constantly moving target. That's why it's very hard to find. But yeah, it's the same idea. I just think it's just digital evolution. This reminds me, I remember when we were doing ThinkTek years and years ago, and you had that tiny little space, and then we'd call in with like a phone number, like a modem sound, and then that's how we did the transmission. We're doing that now, right? We're using the internet. And we now have video and the quality is a thousand times better than we ever had through dial-up. It's not mortal. So it's just evolution. We're probably going to see the same thing on the mobile storefront, too. There's going to be less dependency on phone numbers and text messaging and all that stuff and private label and then encryption messaging apps, which will have better security. At least that's the hope for, you know, because that's what I want my staff. I don't want them receiving text messages and phone numbers from scambay and advertisers. And I mean, as you know, we do a lot of segments on just text message scams. They come through all the time. Well, that's one of our top, you know, videos is the Venmo text messaging scam. It's on YouTube. It has like a few hundred thousand hits. I mean, it's just that that's what people are getting and they're trying to find guidance on. We can eliminate that huge. This one seems to be to me logically scarier than anything before because a couple of, you know, logical factors here. One is, you know, if there's seven billion people on the planet, a good percentage of them have smartphones. There are many, many, many people who have smartphones that don't have television. And it's ubiquitous. It's ubiquitous. So if I have a way to crack through any security and surveil you on your smartphone, you know, there are billions of people who are vulnerable and and that, of course, includes the leadership. And this is clear that this is used now. It's used a way to get to the leadership, a way to disrupt human affairs in every country, in every institution. There's no escaping it. When you think of the implications and the consequences of this kind of attack, they are worse. It's worse than any other attack in the past. When I see this as it's not just interesting that you're vulnerable and that the government is vulnerable and law enforcement is vulnerable. Everybody from top to bottom, the genius out of the bottle on this and so never intended it. But here we are. And I think this will change human conduct. This will change the world as it is until they come up with a patch, you know, a solution. This has got tremendous consequences. Don't you agree? Well, the, you know, you're just looking at the end, end of ice monitoring. You know, if I remember, I didn't read too much into it. So you may not have more insight about this than I do, but the Hoya transmitters, the 5G transmitters were banned in the U.S. because people to monitor traffic in real time, data and voice traffic and report them to whoever wants to peer in on that. And that's at the transmitter level. So the infrastructure itself can be monitored and vetted and recorded and stored. So I don't believe that, you know, we're looking at a end device compromise. We're looking at a infrastructure compromise. And until you get to end to end 100% digital encrypted communication, you're not going to be able to avoid that. So the only way to do that is you segment your devices in the least privilege. So have one one for confidential information and have a separate device or tablet for games and everything else you want to do and do your best to have complex passwords, have good security practices in your own day-to-day life. And it's all going to be just best effort. There's no such thing as 100% full proof operating system. It just doesn't exist. They can get on your phone or they can get on your phone and get everything. And if they get on the phone that you use for the company, they can get everything there too. I mean, it's pretty scary. Let me ask you this. So we had Cisco, a couple of managers from Cisco on the show last week. And I keep thinking of Cisco is, you know, the switches and the cables that run underground under the ocean, tremendously important element in the worldwide web. We read you think, and I know nothing about this, but do you think that if you watch the traffic on the cables and the switches under the ground and under the ocean, you'd be able to identify signals from Pegasus and stop them? Well, it's possible. Anything's possible if you know what you're looking for. Homeland security on a regular basis does notify the private sector of IP addresses that are public facing that they do request public sector IT administrators and security administrators to flag in their firewalls and look for suspicious traffic and let them know if that does occur. That's done on every two weeks, they release that stuff. So if the private IP addresses of the Pegasus guys are released, then yeah, we can start looking for that. And if I remember right, I was reading that they are using Amazon services for this. So Amazon can get involved too if they really wanted to and try to shut some of this down. But like I said, I mean, their legitimate business are exploiting a valid security flaw in the operating system. It's going to be up to Apple to really shut this down. Well, the question really in large part, there's so many things in our world work this way. There's not so much what's going on because this is going to continue to go on. It's anonymous, right? It's going to continue to go on until somebody comes up with a solution. And the people who are engaged in this kind of surveillance, they're not going to go on the front page. They're not going to tell you. In fact, it's a much better idea not to say a word, not to say boo, and they weren't saying boo until amnesty caught them. I believe that's what happened. In any event, it seems to me that this is a press thing largely. So the press makes a big deal. Everybody gets excited. You and I have discussions. We speculate what it is and how it can be stopped and what the advice is to people who might be vulnerable. But after a few weeks, we'll have something else to distract us. I promise you, Attila, we'll have something else. I mean, just before the show, I saw that we have a new killer fungus. And it's distracting. On top of COVID now, we have a killer fungus. The bottom line is that while the press pays attention to this, it's on our radar. It's on our level of awareness that we talk about it. In a few weeks, there'll be something else. We won't talk about it. However, it will continue anyway. It will be there. It's like an endemic disease. It will be there and they will still do it. So we have to live with it. As you said, we have to take steps. Until somebody tells us there's a cure, we have to take steps to what we want to call it, minimize the effect of it. Bottom line is, there's nowhere to hide. You can go into the Pacific Northwest into the Arctic territories, the Northwest territories. You can't hide there. Walden Pond is over. Well, like you mentioned, the Arctic, that's a changing region right there. So who knows? You might be able to go there and hide someday. But yeah, it's kind of funny in some of my videos. I have like an alternate ego character that shows up who's like me from like 10 years in the future, who says, you know what, with all these compromises and problems, society just gave up on technology and now we just sit around and meditate all day and do yoga. So maybe that's the solution. It's just up on it all together. But short of that, I think we're just going to have ongoing problems. We do the best we can. Yes, it's true. We will get distracted by the next big catastrophe that's going to happen. I'm sure everything from climate change to killer fungus to who knows, political events, there's always going to be a distraction. Just the best we can. Well, if I'm the guy who comes up with a solution to the killer fungus, maybe it's one part vinegar, the other part ice cream. Who knows what it is. That'll save the lives of people who will become infected. Likewise, if you, Attila, if you find a way through some coded program, some simple median line coded program to beat this, my question to you is how much money do you think you would make in the short term? Well, and so I think you're hitting a real important point is that we often do talk to organizations that have the resources that have a problem, like a real problem, that's proven that we've worked with law enforcement on. And they simply won't do anything about it. I just don't understand. And that's been one of the frustrations I've heard not just from not just from law enforcement, but also private industry is that many times there's a problem. There's a solution. There are funds to solve that problem and still just not good stuff. So I don't know what that what that says about us as a human beings. But you know, if you really do want to take something seriously, you have to find the right people who care and make a difference. And you can't wait on somebody else to do it. But I'm sure there are people in, well, I'm assuming this didn't this. No, I know this did not originate in China. I don't know, however, whether China is using it or not. Maybe China is using it right now on American officials, on American military and American law enforcement. But let's assume that we're in China for a moment. Don't you think that China would be working really hard on finding a solution on getting its hands around this? I think what I hear you saying is this and this is a great point to discuss here at the end of our show. I have been hearing for years that we're in a kind of competition. And the black hats you know, will come up with some, you know, really evil thing. And then the white hats will come up with something to beat the black hats. And it's a spiral, isn't it? And it just goes on and on. And it's a sort of perpetual contention, bring the black hats and the white hats. But on the other hand, if you say that nobody wants to actually address this, it's too expensive, there's no mileage in it, let somebody else do it, another country, another government agency would have you and nobody is willing to put the resources, the money into a fix. Then we're really one behind. Is that way we are going in this country? That's a very negative kind of future, isn't it? Well, I heard a comedian once, he was like a Norwegian community, I think, or Swedish, one of those countries in that area. And he says, you know, in our country, here's how we do things. We wait for the problem to get really, really bad. And then we wait until it just gets as bad as it can possibly get. And then we fix it real quick, as cheap as we can do it. And as I'm sure that that might resonate to some of your legal training or legal experiences, but that seems to be a pervasive human trait, not just localized to those Norwegian countries. Folks will often just wait until there's a break in to put in an alarm system. They'll wait until they're on serious medications before they make changes to their health and voices. They'll wait until their finances are a disaster before they start learning about what money is. These are the kind of common human traits that I think we can all agree upon. So if you want to break the cycle, you got to do it differently than everyone else and not wait until it's a complete disaster and start putting in the effort early. You got to get ahead of the curve, you got to plan, you got to anticipate, and you got to see into the future. So yeah, I think that's a very good point. And let me say that if you were, if you were Cyber Command, if you were the government in general and you saw this happen and you realized this is a game changer, this is what it is, it's a game changer, what would you do now in the way of planning ahead of seeing down the road, picking that very same philosophy and making it protect us better? Well, let's also be clear, this is not a conversation that just you and I are having, but it's very active in Homeland Security. So they are aware, they are doing the best they can to notify the public and put in preventative measures. But there's not, there's so much happening, they're spread so thin and they can only do so much. This is kind of a reactive state in which we're in. And I hope that can change and I'm sure there's some preventative and proactive measures that they've taken, they've done the best they can to educate the community and they do reach out to private sectors, companies like us, so that we can collaborate and be proactive on things. But a lot of this stuff just comes out left field. I mean, we haven't even talked about the zero days from last week. I mean, the print nightmares, all this stuff from Windows. And that was all, it seems like old hat, but that was just like a week ago where IT companies were scrambling to try to patch essentially every Windows computer on the planet from vulnerabilities that came out. That's where Revol came from. Remember what we talked about in the last, yeah, I should put a link to that below. But the Revol ran somewhere. I mean, that supply pin attack that went through Casayas network, that was based on a zero day Windows vulnerability that still needed to be patched after all that. And it broke millions of computers, a blue screen then, print services stop working, IT departments are still scrambling to catch up on that. So zero days come from left field all the time, we just do what we can. I just wish Apple would be a little bit more transparent. And the services we provide about mobile device management, making sure that something weird doesn't end up on mobile devices. That's the best effort we can do to keep the community safe. And it is a much needed service. Looking at it here, you know, it's sort of the used this number again, the 50,000 foot level. What happened is a private company, have to be in Israel, they could have been anywhere in the world, comes up with something that would be interesting to government and government would pay for. Because government likes to surveil, especially, you know, authoritarian governments, they like to surveil. So it's a slam dunk. I'm here from NSO, and I want to sell you Pegasus, let me show you what it can do. And the government, especially the right wing government is going to say, oh, yeah, yeah, I want that. Then I'll pay anything for that. So you have, it's a political issue at that point. You have a government that says, I want to surveil. That's pretty creepy. I have a government that wants that and is willing to pay big money for it. The second thing is, now the government has it. And instead of using it for the purposes they intended, somehow it leaks. The government, you know, is porous, or maybe it spells it or, you know, allows it to be taken from them. And now it's out, you know, into the nether, it's everywhere. And it's, trust me, all the publicity is going to help it get out into the nether. It's like all the big advertisement for this product. So we have two issues of consequence around government. One is that the government would buy it, thus encouraging developers, even black hat developers, black hat and white hat. These guys are white hat. Encouraging developers to develop things like this and B, the government can't be trusted, but hold its secret. So both of those problems led to our current situation with Pegasus. What can we do about that? Have a better government? Well, you keep saying government, government, but in my experience, it's not just been government, it's been espionage. So there's there's a lot of private money behind this as well. I certainly wouldn't say this is all 100% government. NSO's official stance is that this product was meant to prevent terrorism. And I think that's kind of a, what's the right word, kind of a weasley approach or weasley explanation. I think it would be legitimate if you could contain it, but they could not contain it. And that's the lesson you can't contain. You can't say we're going to use a black hat solution or such a powerful solution, you know, for the purpose intended, it will get out. These things will get out. And so when they surveil you and they get sensitive information on you, that's not going to stay in place. That's going to get passed around. It's not the world in which we live. It will get passed around probably the wrong people. So, you know, we've got to all be careful what we say on the phone. How many people are watching right now? I don't know. You know, we used to joke, are you listening? NSA, are you listening? But now there's no problem about that. We know there's a fair chance they can listen if they like it. It doesn't take much to do that. Well, I'm encouraged by this discussion. I only have one more question for you, Tilla. Where can I buy one of those old motor roller brick phones? I'd like to know. Yeah, I really wish they'd work on today's networks. They just don't. They don't even work. So what's your closing advice to people? Well, you know, if this is a concern, take a look at best practices for mobile device usage. CMMC is a great place to start for that. It's about how you can segment your data between different devices, either a mobile phone and a tablet or multiple mobile phones, so that even if one is compromised, they don't have the entire pizza, right? Just part of it. And if you do run with sensitive information and you do require mobile device management, look for a firm that might be able to do something like that for you. I can think of a few. Hold on. I could think of a way. Cylanda. There it is. I knew I could see that. Yeah. Of course, there's the idea about going to the United States Postal Service and putting all that in envelope and hoping it will get to where it's supposed to go. But I won't feel real confident to that right now, either. Yeah, I have a lot of stuff in the mail. I think everyone has. But, you know, regular emails like putting a postcard in a mailbox, it can be read every step of the way along the way. So yeah, guys, make sure you use encrypted email, especially for secure communications. I can't tell you how many times. And this is just a general, you know, public service announcement. Guys, if you're applying for a job, do not send any of your private information by email. You see that all the time, it gets sent to HR. Like just drop it off in person with a piece of paper and ask how it's going to be stored. That's important. You don't want your private information flowing around out there. So there you go. Valuable advice. So tell us the rest. Cylanda, joining us from headquarters central at the Cylanda company. Thank you so much until I really enjoy these discussions. And I feel certain we'll have another one soon, because there'll be more news to discuss really soon. You got it, Jay. Stay safe out there.