 Everyone, and welcome to another episode of Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii, where we discuss the impact of change on workers, employers, and the economy. I'm Cheryl Krozier-Garcia, inviting you to join in the conversation. Please call in with your questions or comments to area code 808-374-2014 or tweet us at Think Tech H.I. Several weeks ago, we did a show on the Aloha Spirit Law. Few Hawaii residents know that the practice of Aloha and other traditional Hawaiian values are codified into the Hawaii Revised Statutes. I was one of them misinformed, so I did a bit of research, and I couldn't find any legal cases in which someone was tried or convicted of violating the Aloha Spirit Law. Under what kinds of circumstances might someone be arrested for not practicing Aloha? How would an attorney convince a jury that the law had been violated or not violated? Joining us today to discuss this issue is our returning champion, Kumu Shanalogan. Shana is a cultural practitioner and a cultural resource person for the Hawaii Island Department of Education, and she's a longtime advocate for Kanaka Maoli children in the foster care system, as well as for Kanaka Maoli families trying to access support services. Welcome, Shana. Aloha. Aloha for having me. Thank you for coming back. So the Aloha Spirit Law is right in the beginning of the Hawaii Revised Statutes. It's one of the very first things to talk, because it's talked about. And it directs very important people, both elected and appointed officials in the state, that they are expected to govern and to do their jobs using the practices of Aloha, of humility, compassion, empathy, et cetera. Now you and I were talking about how the best way to sort of activate this part of the Hawaii Revised Statutes would work. So tell us a little bit about your ideas for how we can actually make that part of our system of jurisprudence. Well, thank you for having me again. I am not a legal expert, but as a community member who is affected by this law and who has been kind of studying the law and how it can be utilized in our everyday practices, I came to the understanding that more so than not, there are standards that need to be held up by our government officials, because that's where the standards come from for the rest of society. Although we do have personal standards that we should abide by, such as the Aloha Spirit Law calls for, such as being friendly, a kaha'i, lo kahi, having unity, olu olu being pleasant, ha'aha'a being humble, and also ahunu'i being patient. Because if you want to express Aloha, it takes a lot of patience and a lot of long suffering. When it comes to litigation, however, as a community member, I feel that there would be very, it's very difficult to legislate personal behavior unless there's some kind of mechanism to do restitution. So say if somebody cuts you off in traffic, could a police officer actually give you a ticket for not being friendly or pleasant or humble? They possibly could, but I think that would backlog the system too much. And I think that it's kind of like seatbelt laws and drink driving laws where you can legislate behavior, however, this is such a subjective law. We have the Ten Commandments from the Christian belief system that have been incorporated into our laws, such as you cannot steal, don't shed out lie. Those kind of laws are very objective. If you steal, you go to jail or you get a fine or something happens, because there needs to be restitution and there needs to be accountability. So my first suggestion would be to have the standard bearers, like it says in the law, the governor, the lieutenant governor, the legislature, the chief justices and the court system that includes the appellate and the district courts. Those who work in those government agencies and positions need to continue to be the standard bearers for the rest of us, because how can we as individuals trust in the law of aloha and give ourselves over to it when we find that the community culture or the collective culture coming from the top does not show aloha. So when we go to court, are these entities showing aloha to us? I think of when the monarchy protesters protesting the TMT project were standing up for their First Amendment rights as afforded by the U.S. Constitution, a lot of those people were arrested for simply being on the mountain. And there were laws created to get them off the mountain, and it was all in support of a project that is a private enterprise in partnership with the government. So in that sense, I don't believe that the government was showing aloha, the governor and his agents in doke here, because if they were showing aloha to the people, they would have spent more time trying to mitigate the problem before treating these people like criminals. And as far as I understand, a lot of those cases have not been pursued by prosecutors that a lot of them have been dropped. Many of them they've had to pay fines. And I feel for these people, because it doesn't seem to me like the government was really focused on the aloha spirit law in this situation. And I feel in these kinds of situations, the only recourse that we have sometimes would be to say that the government has wronged me. And I'm not one to file complaints about everything. But when I think that it's important, that is the time to stand up. Even our queen, Lily O'Kalani, stood up against tyranny and said that she could not turn back the tide of political change. In 1917, she said these words. She said, but we have time to still save our heritage and never fail to act for fear of not succeeding. And so we need to continue to follow those tenets. And so with regards to aloha spirit law, we need to look to our leaders to be the standard bearers. Uh-huh. Yeah. Certainly, learning by example is kind of an easier way to go. When we look at the aloha spirit law, though, as something that may possibly be a standard of behavior for our leaders, which would you say would be more likely to be applicable? Distributive justice or procedural justice? Procedural justice means that everybody is treated according to the same rules. Okay. So the rules of arrest are the same. The rules of posting bail are the same. All of these kinds of things. That's procedural justice. Everybody goes through the same steps in order to get some kind of legal settlement to an issue. Distributive justice takes into account varying issues of why the behavior was done, how bad the damage was, et cetera. So for example, if I went to Walgreens and I took a basket and I filled it full of cosmetics and I walked out the door with them, that would be stealing, right? If I got arrested, I would go through all of the steps that lead from being arrested to some kind of verdict on my behalf, okay? And procedural justice would say, we caught you with the stuff, we saw you do it, et cetera, et cetera, guilty of theft, okay? Distributive justice would be, I walk into Walgreens, I pick up a basket, and I somehow figure out a way to get behind the counter in the pharmacy and I take my grandmother's prescription medications and other things that she might need to say to treat her health condition, okay? I would go through the whole process, but distributive justice would say, yeah, it's theft, but it's not as bad as stealing makeup. So there's still a punishment, but the punishment is not as severe. In your opinion, which one might be closer to the aloha spirit? I know what I think, but I'd like to know what you think. Well, when I created my company, Aloha Consultants, it was back in 1996, and my premise was not to make money. My premise was to help people to understand better this concept of aloha. I wanted it to kind of like be a free service, not based on money, but based on the barter system, okay? And I'm working now to create methodologies that result in porno policies and porno, okay? Porno is one of the aloha responses that we can have to these situations. So if I were to say, look at this situation with a porno perspective, which is equality, and all things being equal. Now we know that they are big businesses taking land from all kinds of sources so that they can continue to grow and be bigger businesses. And they have a lot of influence on the community, government, and the decisions that are made. If you look at the lower level, just the community, people, individuals such as you're talking about, these porno policies have to be equal to what they're meeting on the larger scale. So if there is a policy that on the large scale promotes the theft of land or the theft of anything, people's rights or whatever it may be, policy has to be fair. Porno. So injustice, if the little guy has to suffer this way, the big guy has to suffer this way. So porno policy means equity, equality, not just big business getting away with things, but they have to be held to the same standards. So if they're a large stakeholder in the community and say they're a store charging outrageously high prices to people and people cannot afford their medicine or they cannot afford these items, makeup, or whatever it may be, we have to really look at are these porno policies, are they forcing our people into stealing their medications or having a choice between food and medication. So and I'm not against big pharma and all that, I'm not political, I'm just trying to say as a citizen and as a person who is promoting the spirit of Aloha and porno policies, that it is big businesses, kuleana, to have a corporate culture that reflects the community, to be global citizens, we need to understand everyone. And a lot of times I believe that the Kanaka Uiwi, the original people, suffer the most in their homeland. And everybody has a debate about that, whether or not we're victims. I don't say that we're victims. I say that those of us who have a genealogy tied to the land before the overthrow, before Kamehameha even, those who have that original DNA, we have a special kuleana responsibility to hang on to our mo'oku al-hao because our people are dying. So these issues, these other issues that come along, such as immigration, pollution, all these issues that come along, we need to be part of that standard bearing mechanism, such as using Aloha and saying that you cannot go on social media and say a bunch of stuff and not be able to say it to the person's face. Everything that I have posted on my personal Facebook, even if it's against the government, I will say it to the person's face. I do not have fear about being in the presence of someone else, you know? And I don't want to be arrogant about it, but I do want to be humble and say that there are times that I have been right, there's times that I have been wrong. So stealing is wrong. And you know, both those situations is wrong, per se, with the law. But it's also wrong to overcharge people. It's also wrong to make medication so expensive that we, as a people, do not have the resources to go and get that medication. So see, it's a cycle. It's not where a person is necessarily a criminal because they need to get the things that they need and they have to take it. I mean, there are stories even in the Bible of things that have violated the law, but that there have been, I guess, reasons for that violation. And I can cite many of them, but I don't want to get into that. But what I'm saying is we don't want to compromise ourselves, but at the same time, we need to hold everyone to the same standard. And that's what a Pono policy is. And I'm working, right now I'm working through my master's program and working towards the thesis that Aloha and Kuliana and Pono, when instituted properly, can create methodologies that produce Pono policies. With the right inputs, we can have the correct outputs. And I really appreciate the, you know, those who have come before me, like Pila Hippaki, like Aunty Nanaviri, and all these others who have created this spiritual space for us, knowing that spirituality is important, even in law. And Aloha is a very spiritual practice. The Kanaka Uiwi, the original people have been using this value or tenet standard forever. As long as there has been Hawaiians or Kanaka, there has been Aloha. And it sounds to me like without that internalized sense of what the values are, the laws mean nothing. Because ultimately what stops me from doing something wrong is not necessarily what the law says, because frankly, you know, cops aren't around that often or whatever it is. What stops me is that inner sense of this is wrong. And that is that spiritual aspect that you talk about. Let's discuss this a little bit more in just a few minutes. We need to take a break so that you can take a look at some of the other awesome programming we have here on ThinkTek Hawai'i. We will be back to working together in 60 seconds. I'm Ethan Allen, host of Likeable Science on ThinkTek Hawai'i. Every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m., I hope you'll join me for Likeable Science, where we'll dig into the science, dig into the meat of science, dig into the joy and delight of science. We'll discover why science is indeed fun, why science is interesting, why people should care about science, and care about the research that's being done out there. It's all great, it's all entertaining, it's all educational, so I hope you'll join me for Likeable Science. Good afternoon. My name is Howard Wigg. I am the proud host of Code Green, a program on ThinkTek Hawai'i. We show at 3 o'clock in the afternoon every other Monday. My guests are specialists both from here and the mainland on energy efficiency, which means you do more for less electricity and you're generally safer and more comfortable while you're keeping dollars in your pocket. Welcome back to working together on ThinkTek Hawai'i. Shanalogen and I are discussing the Aloha spirit and the use of porno or righteous policies in order to create a community that is just and fair for all members. And just before winter break, I was going to tell you a story, so I'm going to tell you a story now. In the history of nonprofit organizations in the United States, there has been only one that has accomplished its mission, and that organization was the March of Dimes. The March of Dimes was founded back during the President Franklin Delano Roosevelt administration because he had polio. And the goal behind the March of Dimes was he wanted every person in the United States to pay 10 cents, and they would use that money to look for a vaccine for polio. And they found one. Jonas Salk developed the polio vaccine that has essentially eliminated polio, certainly in the developed world, and now is expanding more into the undeveloped world and the emerging world. Now, here's the interesting thing about that. When Jonas Salk, as the developer of this vaccine, had the right to patent it and get a copyright on it so that nobody could use the formula unless they paid him, he wouldn't do it. He didn't take the money. He allowed anybody who had the facilities and the resources to develop the vaccine to go ahead and do it, because he felt like he couldn't take money for something that was so desperately needed in order to improve the lives, mostly of children, all around the world. Now, to me, that's poodle. And so, although he was a doctor, not a government official, he was never elected to office or any of that, but he was a very brilliant man. How do we get our leaders to think in those kind of broader do-what-right-for-everybody kind of mindset? How do we get to that place where polio happens without us thinking about it? Well, if you remember, several years ago, maybe about two decades ago or more, cigarette smoking was very common. Right. I smoked. And there was a campaign, anti-tobacco, started by President Clinton and others, who decided that this is a good policy to have, anti-smoking, anti-tobacco. And so, suddenly, the paradigm shift was that smoking was bad for you. And so, everybody trickled down to everybody, and everybody started to see cigarettes as something they didn't want to do, although there has been a little bit of black backlash because sometimes media can glamorize something. But the point of it is that you can try to change behavior. There's still smokers today. You can educate people, but until they see the benefit of why they have to change their ways or why they have to adopt the new practice, they're not going to change. And if they think everybody's doing it, well, everybody smokes cigarettes. It's at 7-11. Everybody drinks. It's at 7-11. They have the, I guess, permission to continue their bad behavior or their behavior that's not good for them, that's not porno for them. So when it comes to the Aloha Spirit Law and promoting better behavior, I think that it's going to take more than just a media campaign, it's going to take all of us being aware and educated and supporting those things that we know promote Aloha. So those practices, those legislators, those judges, those people who are in the ranks promoting and actually living Aloha. One of the things that I hope is that our government leaders will adopt a lot of the, I guess, the tenets of the Aloha Spirit Law as their own personal belief system so that when they write laws for us that we can follow their example and say, oh, Aloha for the Aina. Now, that's not just a Hawaiian concept. Aloha Aina is more of a caring, Malama Aina, taking care of the land. We as Kanaka believe that the land is our ohana, our family. And we protect this land as passionately as anyone would protect their family or their children. And we don't believe that anything belongs to us, at least not those who believe as the ancient Hawaiians do. So if you know the spirit of Aloha, you know that we don't own anybody and we don't own anything, but Aloha is shared and that's how mana is built, the energy and the strength to continue as individuals and with our government leaders support. So if they support us in our Aloha Spirit focus and how we want to promote what the Kanaka's culture brought forward and we know that Aloha is not something that's just HVB, Hawaii Visitors' Bureau, but we know that it's something that came from a culture that is very special, very unique. And those of us who are Kanaka who have the DNA are dying out. And it's not something that, Aloha is not something that is just so flagrant to be thrown around like that. Aloha is a sacred, sacred act between two people that shows that there is respect, there's kindness, there's all kinds of meaning wrapped up in that. We call that kauna or hoa, noahuna, which is the spiritual meaning as Pilahipaki said in her writing, is that the noahuna, the spiritual meaning behind something is very important. So if we look at the law only as behavior, then we're not going to get it. We have to think Hawaiian and that is a spiritual thing that you cannot see and you cannot know, you have to feel and be guided by. Speaking of feeling, how do we overcome some of the deeply held psychic pain that many of our fellow community members, and not just the native Hawaiians Kanaka Maoli, but everybody, you know, every family who is married and has two kids and each parents work in three jobs just to survive. Every child that has to come home to an empty house and have supper on the table by six o'clock when the parents come home, everybody who waits at a bus stop and has the bus go rolling by because it's full and they can't take any more riders. This creates, I think, just a real sense of psychic anger that we cannot help but let loose on each other. And sometimes we see it in terms of, I don't know if you've ever heard the term, holly hunters of these, these are big guys, big local boys who go around to Waikiki and pick fights with our visitors. Out of anger that somehow those visitors are depriving these young men of something that they deserve and that they own. So what do we do to overcome that anger? Because it seems to me there can be no aloha, no ponno, no kuleana where there's anger and negativity. Well, as a teacher I have taught a lot of students, thousands of students. And in my six years humbly being able to serve in this way, I have taught these young children that aloha starts itself. And if you don't have aloha for yourself, you cannot share it. So aloha means knowing who you are. And we cannot teach people all about that every person. But if we know, I mean there has been a pilot project done about mindfulness and mindfulness as a Buddhist practice of just being aware of yourself and your thoughts. And there was a study done in the correctional facility for children, young children. I forget what the study was called. But it was about having mindfulness and aloha for yourself comes from being mindful of yourself. So aloha does start with home, ourselves, our homes, our children, our spouses. When someone's not giving us aloha, it's really hard to show it back because it's not coming. So aloha aku, aloha mai. I give to you, you give to me aloha aku, aloha mai. That's how it should go, like a flow, like the water, hydroponic cycle, everything flows. So when the flow is stopped, that is a difficult situation. And so on an individual basis I would hope that we would start having aloha for ourselves as well as having aloha for others and the world around us. Yeah. I would hope that that would be true too. And speaking of flow, our programming flow is moving along. So it's time for us to get ready to say goodbye. Most of us were taught polite behavior as children, saying please and thank you, sharing our toys, respecting our elders, being good sports, and obeying the law were just aspects of daily life. And for those of us who had a hard time learning those lessons, a wooden spoon or a rubber slipper was an effective teaching tool. Applying to a disobedient okole, a child quickly learned that there was a penalty for misbehavior. Who would ever thought that our community would forget so much of what it means to live in Hawaii, that aloha and the values that make our home special would have to be written into our legal code. In order to return to the good old days of friendliness and cordiality, perhaps our law enforcement leaders should begin enforcing the aloha spirit law, showing those who choose not to comply that there are undesirable consequences for not playing nicely with others. That does it for this episode of Working Together. On behalf of all the volunteer citizen journalists here at Think Tech Hawaii, thank you for joining us. I'll be back in two weeks. Till then, take care.