 Thank you again for meeting with us. So the reason that we came today is because we wanted to ask for some information or some suggestions about how to make online teaching more immediate and lifelike. So most of those schools right now that are doing business teaching, they're doing one of two things. They're either recording all of their classes and then just sending it to the kids and saying, or they're using like zooms or will meetings like that. So in Taiwan or across the world? In Taiwan I don't think anybody's zoom right now. Because we just find it. But what we've seen is because our kids are younger than university level, so they're not that good at regulating themselves. They need that feeling of immediacy. So they have to feel like they're actually inside the classroom. What's preventing them from being inside the classroom? I mean we are inside the room now. This is probably not going to be the only situation with a virus or a pandemic or something like that. And even if it is, I think the future of education isn't going to be 100% always inside the classroom with all the kids. It's very possible that some days we'll have some kids and other days we'll have other kids. Sometimes they're going to be home, sometimes everybody's going to be together. So we were wondering how can we create a sort of environment where the kids inside of the classroom can feel like the distance learning kids are also inside the classroom. And how can we make the distance learning kids feel like they are inside the classroom? Well you just connected the rooms together using projectors on walls. The rooms on the walls probably is pretty effective. You can connect one, two, three, four rooms together. That's probably pretty effective for the kids inside the school. But what about the kids outside of the school? If they want to feel like they're actually inside the classroom. But they're also protecting them through their walls. There's a lot of protectors. Yeah, that's right. But we do do that. Like every other week or so we tour around Taiwan and we connect whichever municipality. I think we're in L.D. right now last time. And we connect with people from Taipei, from Taichung, from Elshun, from Taidong and so on. And each of them use a wall size projector. So that it's virtually like a large room. Okay. So if I'm walking around the room and I want to talk to this particular person. Yeah. Does that mean we need like eye tracking software? You don't. You just need a camera like this that follows around. So who operates the camera like it just is right. And we also have stand-in avatars. So we actually have this. So if you want somebody to stand in for somebody else you just put it to a rotating chair. Okay. And put on it a tablet. And then whoever wants to talk to their remote participants just walk out to this tablet and start talking to them. And then the chair can be moved around? Yes. Is there rotating with chair? Alright. And if the distance person would like to feel like they can move inside the room. Yeah. Then they can just point some place. And either they're, this is like a wheelchair student right. They can either wheelchair themselves in or somebody can help to wheelchair them there. And there's different sorts of wheelchairs. There are more mundane wheelchairs like double robotics 2.0 which you have to manually wheel yourself by pressing the arrow keys on your keyboard. But on double 3.0 it's a more advanced wheelchair. You just point anywhere in the room and it just navigates to it without you manually controlling it. Is that a big financial burden? No. No. You can use it I think more than 10 times now. What would we talk to about something like that? We work with trip moment. Trip moment. In for example the National Palace Museum visit. I visited the south division of the National Palace Museum as a robot. And because they put their 360 camera on top of my robotic global. And then everybody on YouTube can just view if they have a VR then immersively but otherwise rotation to see. And I don't have to broadcast my face in 360. It's just me with a face in the tablet but what I see is 360. And so people can just look at whichever MPM exhibitions that they wish to talk more about. They're having their questions and I follow those questions to the head curator. And the curator just answers that. So that is very immersive for everybody who follows along under low latency YouTube 360 live stream. It's actually what I was thinking. Remember I said having little robots on the table so they can go around and talk to different people. That's right. This is just live size robots but otherwise the principle is the same. So with the current situation with our 4G network is the latency a really big issue for people that are using VR goggles? So VR is there to counter the latency issue. If you have to turn around your head using a 2D camera there's bound to be a latency of you actually issuing that robot actually turning because it's kinetic. But because it's 360 you can turn locally. It's taking in all the angles anyway. So there's zero latency when it comes to rotation. There's some latency of course when it comes to movement but people are more okay with that. It's the rotational latency that can render people dizzy. I think last week we went to talk to some people at NQ and they were telling us like because of the slight latency people might feel uncomfortable after a while of using it. That's right. So if you have a rotating but not moving chair everybody will feel very good about it. But once it's moving once there's translation movement rather than only the rotational movement then there's some C-sync like VR-sync that you need to anticipate. If they're not moving they're staying in place with a 360 camera then there's no risk of that. We should definitely try that. I attended a local court in Shilling Court. It's a mock court with a bunch of junior high school students and in a mock trial. And we also use a 360 camera at the middle of the mock court so that people who are following along can see the face of all the different sides and I'm mounted on the judge seat so that it is a combination of the two technologies that we have mentioned. One is a 360 that lets people see what's going on and what is this robotic avatar. You did it in the UN, right? Yeah, well I did. Yes, in UN IGF and for UN it's just watching a movie. The PRC ambassador did not leave the room. So you said that we would take one of those tablets and put it on like a little robot track and you could do whatever else. So we just point and it will turn? Yeah. So the manual turning is essentially costless, right? You just have an existing tablet. The turning rotation only is slightly more expensive. The whole movement is even more expensive but it's always in our procurement budget which is $500K. So maybe it would work with like a Wii remover or something like that. Yeah, sure. You can try various combinations but one of the key point is that you allow for VR immersion then you have to get a pretty good stable connection to the 4K 360 camera. But if it's only 2D and it's not moving horizontally or vertically then you don't need that much of a good connection for what you would do. Doesn't have to be 4K? No, 4K is all pixel combined and if you have 4K in 360 then each perspective is not 4K. So your knowledge other than maybe high end users, are there any schools or any educational organizations that are doing things like this? There's a learning forum at Middler High School. And lower than university level. Yeah, so there's plenty of primary school principals in New Taipei City that are setting up their own GCMeet video conferencing solution. So GCMeet is a very simple, fully open source free software that you can start a conference at any event in time. And with password connection and so on. But the good thing is that because it's fully open source there really is no restriction of how you can use it. So for example you can do a virtual classroom like this and let your student join so that I can join whichever area that I want. And I can walk around the classroom virtually. I can also attach myself to one of the virtual iPads. I can then turn on the camera in which case for people following online it's me talking into the camera. But for people who are on site it's my tablet talking with my face. And this is a very cheap technology that the primary school people can just implement using their own existing hardware and software. Because it's free there's no licensing cost. Actually a bunch of colleagues just run an online field neural using precisely this technology. And you can see this Yushan bank people on the upper right side. You can see this zero people. You can see they leaving their tributes to GCMeet and so on. And it's based on the same GCMeet technology that you can very easily set up with no licensing cost. So you can see there's a huge number of concurrent people in memory of GCMeet. That looks a little bit like Animal Crossing. But it is a little bit like Animal Crossing. Except of course we don't have to pay for licensing fee. It's the same 8-bit aesthetics. I think we can set something like that up. And this is a free software. You can set up yourself. So when you walk around here, what do you actually see? What shows up on your screen? So basically if there's multiple people all joining this, then you can see multiple people each one. So their faces will show up on the right here? I'm just talking with myself this way. Which is a little bit eerie I guess. You can easily imagine that it's not two people with the same face but actually two different people. So that's how they look like. And there's also setups that we're working on. So this is all contributed by the GovZero Community Contributors. It's not a purely government project but we do plan to use it in many government sponsored project settings. So for example you can see there are places with a speakers microphone or a moderator like this place with a screen share so that you can screen share to there. And if you stand to the kind of moderator's place like where Helen is here, then you can attach to one of the existing tablets that's mounted there so that your face will then actually occur in the physical classroom. So you can teleport inside the classroom. Exactly. That's how it looks like. There's many people online at the same time. You'll see many little screens. Would it make you very laggy? No, no, no. I think last time we tested with the Pratt Institute of Management School and they're in a different time zone even and I think 45 people joined concurrently and there's no lag. And you have to decide who you want to mute? There's a built-in feature that mutes everyone but the person in Napoleon. So you want to talk, you walk through Napoleon. And if people are just watching without speaking and so on, they can turn off their video which saves the bandwidth even more. But as you can see it's very downscale resolution. So it really doesn't matter how many people join because the bandwidth causes minimal. It's just one speaker with their screen share that needs to be maximized just as what we see in the video that I just play you. You'll see Dr. Chen Shanwei being the large screen. Of course that needs to be high-definition. So only one person can speak at a time on the podium? At the moment there's three in this setup. Because there's three physical projectors. But we can change the layout, of course. Can people personalize their little amateurs? Yeah, of course. You can choose school uniform or a teacher. Like fantasy. Right, this is like one of fantasy. So you can change or look like. And the teachers can choose the headmaster. And you can design the costume too, right? Yeah, that's right. To make the actual physical. That's very interesting. The headmaster look. Do you think this could be connected to the actual little robots that we have inside the room? Yeah, of course. It would be so cool. And then kids would never go to school anymore. Well, kids would always go to school. Always go to school. So are there any government meetings that are happening like this? Yeah, the presidential microphone for one is going to happen like this. Our cabinet meeting is using WebEx. But there's no cute cartoon characters where we're not there yet. But the principle is the same. Yeah, just could be like a project. Yeah, there's a community within WebZero called, I don't know how to pronounce it, SDH-001. So school. School. Yeah, school. Right, and called Ling Shi Xiao Sui Xiao. If you look for Ling Shi Xiao Sui Xiao, you can find the teachers that are currently engaged. And as you can see, the venue is online. And it's powered by GC Meet. And so they're already kind of drinking their own champagne before they inflicted to their students. The teachers are being empowered using this kind of online farms. These are teachers in just normal schools right now? That's right. Or alternative schools. I think 1C is in an alternative school. So all of these are public documents. We can very easily Google them. And you said for the chair I think it's called CHIP Moment. We have a T-R-I-P-M-O-M-E-N-Z CHIP Moment. Yeah, CHIP Moment. They are our partners during the MPM visit. Yeah, it's this one. So you can buy the wheelchairs or rent it from them? Yeah, previously we rented from them. But I think now, if you look for double robot 3, I think there's multiple resellers now. Yeah, and if you already have a double 2, they can just switch to a double 3 head. It's very modular. And the main feature of the CHIP Moment collaboration was a double 2. But the kind of flagship feature of double 3 is self-navigation. Oh, and then if you point that way, it's going to be cool. Yeah, just point anywhere and just point to the other one. Interacting Google Maps. So it's just like playing the synths. Do these things ever go so fast that they might be an injury risk to people? No, no, no. I don't know. I tried double 2, not only in Geneva in the UN meeting, but also in MIT Media Lab and in Venice by Anyal and many other places. And it's a consistently very smooth experience. And you can also mount a 360 camera on top of it, as we have done in MEM, which completes the full circle. And then you wouldn't? Yeah, boost up. This is like what you said about what it did. I was thinking about more old style like tank treads. But yeah, this is pretty similar to what we were imagining. We didn't know that the hardware was actually available already. That's right. As you can see, they mount, actually the gray dots are the ones that are navigable because there's a depth of detection capability. So there's no way that you can get yourself injured or run over someone because otherwise it won't be gray dots and you can't click there. It's not with like gray dot or anything. So the future is already not even in distributed. When we were talking to Ben Q, one of his main concerns, we talked to Tim, Tim Holm, one of his main concerns was this and then people throwing up all the time. Yeah, so I don't recommend the VR headset at the very beginning. It just started with a wall-size projector. Everybody is fine with a wall-size projector. And a couple of that was a laptop or a tablet and with mounted tablets. And these are all very regular things that people already know. Their eyes know how to adjust. And you do all of this and then you introduce augmented reality through audio. That's another thing because if you have two connected rims, it's better if their sound come from different speakers instead of mixing it to the same speaker. And that adds to the velocity. And if you play your speaker's right, you can feel that entirety of the classroom is transported somewhere else. It's called an immersive soundscape and in the C lab, there is a lab that is doing exactly this. And then visual. Because visual is the one that with the most health risk. So I think it's good to start safe. First to learn more. It's approximately how much of this classroom is? Yeah, so if you have existing tablets, then it is trivial. It doesn't cost anything. If you already have wall-size projectors and tablets and rotating chairs. And if you add to it a moving platform, of course, if you want to procure it, that's time we check W2 is as I said $100K, $80 each. That does the W2. I don't know if I have a 3, but it should be a simple pack. And if you want to deploy this software, it's free software, it's no cost. If you want to run some experimental applications of this, InstaSounds.com actually gets funding from Google Dauer. So they're actually paying people to train these things out. So the budget may well be negative. Yeah, of course. So during the night, because these are all light-emitting services, it disrupts sleep. Everybody knows that. So try to keep your teleconferencing classes before the sunset. That's what a responsible educational facility would do. If you do this at 10pm, then people don't sleep very well. Well, all of our current students are in Taiwan right now, so we're not going to do anything. So you don't have time zone in Taiwan. Well, then you can be very ethical. Another thing we were thinking is because we've met up with quite a few students who are very promising students, but they have social difficulties. They don't really like to leave home. If we had something like this, we could provide them that safety net of knowing I can unplug myself any time I want. That's right, exactly. If you don't like how people are forgiving to you, just disconnect. Rage quit. Well, not in a rage, hopefully, but explore this option. Well, you can maybe try out whether two of these classes are possible, and then we can see how... There's an existing community, so you can just reach out to them. I think they visited us, and there was a transcript of them visiting us. So if you check out our website, there's a transcript that calls best visits, and they actually added quite a few very useful hyperlinks of their focuses and things like that. If you don't have to copy that, I think ST has this link and can send it to you. So these are the people you want to get in touch with if you want to try out that two-dimensional math thing. We'll definitely do that. The kids are on what's it called, the game. Minecraft is 3D. That has been very educational. We also want to try Google VR. We want to make our own Google Cardboard. It's good as an exercise. Just don't stay in it for too much. Are you satisfied with your beef? Yes. I'm happy with it. I think that's another thing that we're going to explore as well. The thing with STAD is that it requires a lot of setup. So if you have 20 students, trouble shooting 11 would cost you a lot of time. But we did try, for example, a virtual classroom through the Spouse of Shipping Life with the public TV. Back in 2016, I talked with a lot of junior high and also primary schools, students, and in a virtual meeting room called High Fidelity. And I shrink my avatar to the same height as they are. So they feel more comfortable talking to me this way about looking after me. So it was a fun exercise. But it does require a lot of logistics and setup. Does it require a lot of sensors everywhere? Well, the latest version, though. But they do require a lot of modeling work. Because once we're within the VR, something like Minecraft doesn't feel quite right. So you have to model something that's more realistic. But JITC and the Double TVR, that's too complicated right there. JITC just need a laptop. And the Double is really just a carrier. It doesn't care about a tablet that's not designed. That can connect to JITC. And Double is just a navigation platform. What happens if there's a class of 20 of those which is running around? I feel like they're just going to keep passing it. Yeah, so in which case, we recommend you have the existing chairs and only mounts and they can only rotate. And there's no movement. So different stations in the room. That's right. We don't really need the Double. Yeah, we saw that in the Neon Genesis Evangelion. It's a popular anime many years ago. And what they each have at the station. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could try that for us. Yeah, I think Double is only really useful if you want to go to an excursion, like going into the south side of the National Press Museum. So just send one and pilot it by you. But everybody join at home. They can join through YouTube or JITC. And they ask questions. And then the person driving that relates the questions. And that's definitely the case. You don't do 20 Double's roaming around. Do you think there's going to be a virtual tourism outside of like indoor areas? Definitely. There needs to be some legislation about that. Otherwise they're just running around all over the place. Yeah, but currently the Taiwan Minister of Culture has the Taiwan Digital Asset Library. So you can visit these places completely as your leisure. Because all of these are already 3D mapped through photogrammetry. Okay. And so you don't have to actually send a Double going to Bartomeu. I doubt the stairs would be friendly to the robot. But you can nevertheless just walk by it. I'm wondering if in the future there are Double's just being actual avatars for people moving around in society. But they ever get stolen by people or anything like that? It could. So yeah, I think that's why Sophia prompted so much discussions. And I think it's a good thing to have a lot of intermediate forms. So before they get fully semi autonomous, we make sure very clearly. For example, as I said Double is just a movement platform. By the person speaking it's not a synthesized image. Although technically you can put a synthesized image on it. But then everybody will get very confused. How is this different from like Google Maps though? So Google Maps skins only from the road. It's a street car right? But this scanning is complete like you can look at all the different angles in it and you can rotate it. Or you can take this stuff inside here. Yeah, you can actually walk inside. How about like if you can touch the move around the stuff that's inside too? Yeah, it's a model. It's a complete model. That's interesting. Right, so there's training videos of how to use it in classrooms. Because they're mad by drones. I thought there was a guy with a 360 camera just running around in his face. No, it's drones. There's another technology. There's many technologies around. Yeah, this is what we wanted to do in middle school. How about the drone? We want to try to create this kind of thing. Yeah, and AI Labs has a very interesting technology that use the drones to take as the late director Zebelin, G-Bolin, is taking. But because the drones doesn't have the same grade of the camera that G-Bolin was having they hallucinate the details based on the G-Bolin films. And so it's actually quite convincing. So if you look at their trial cameras, they are actually of rather high quality. But actually the resolution is actually not good. So a lot of those details. So this is completely drone taken. But most of the details are hallucinated. And it can learn about when to tilt, to pan, to zoom the camera after they finish the primary shooting. Because they capture the light from all the different angles. They can decide to rotate post-production. And that's also done by AI algorithm that learns about the aesthetics from G-Bolin's work. So that's like this double in a sense. We're really happy to share what we've led. I mean frankly speaking within the cabinet, our kind of telepresencing meeting was seen as something of an experiment of a pilot. But after the coronavirus is down the door. We're really happy that there's more people paying attention. We're really happy that there's more people paying attention. We're living in the future now. That's right. My wife told me that it was your birthday. Yeah, a few days ago. I know that last time I said my wife is in Japan and did you want anything. But you said that you often go. So you're something that you can't get in Japan. But also from Japan. It's really nice. And it's obviously not above $3,080. Thank you for everything. Because my wife is a big fan, is it okay for her to visit you on Wednesdays? Of course, of course. Just let ST know. I'm sorry I keep bothering you. You pay your taxes. It's okay.