 Very welcome this evening to our Young Professions Network webinar, a discussion on the future of Scotland post-Brexit. My name is Darren Moriarty, I work in communications and research at the Institute and I also chair YPN. When we originally booked this webinar in a couple of weeks ago, I don't think we knew we'd be in the middle of a heat wave, but that's what you get I think when you book something in for late July. So, very welcome this evening if you're watching us from outdoors with a bit of sun, and I'm also very welcome we're sitting in there and nothing. And this is the second week we're having a very quick succession we usually space a little bit longer but last week we had a really interesting discussion on global access to COVID-19 vaccines. And we'd like to follow that up this evening with Mary Black who's an MP with the Scottish National Party. I'd like to share her thoughts on Scotland's future. And now Brexit has of course become a reality. And this discussion that we're having this evening also follows the recent Scottish Parliament elections which took place in the spring, where the S&P will return for a fourth consecutive term in government in Scotland. And before I formally introduced Mary, let me just briefly run through the format for this evening. Mary's going to talk for a very brief opening remarks she's going to give an initial five minutes or so, and then we'll get straight into discussion. So, I'll kick off maybe one or two questions but we are very keen to hear from all of you watching in. And obviously, you know, the topic at hand is Scotland and Brexit and the future of the UK as a whole. But if you have any other questions at all for Mary, she's happy enough to expand that and take any questions that you're interested in. You can submit all of your questions in writing via the Q&A function on Zoom. And also then if you want to follow this question on Twitter, you can do that using the handle at OIEA and hashtag YPN. Before I hand over the floor to Mary, just let me briefly introduce her. Mary has been an MP with the Scottish National Party since the 2015 general election. And following her very active campaigning in 2014, Scottish independence referendum, she was approached by a local branch to stand for election at the age of 20. She became the youngest MP since the reform act of 1823. She's been elected two times since then, 2017 and 2019, and she's campaigned a number of different issues including social justice and end to austerity, Scottish independence and all other things. Great. Thank you very much for being with us this evening from a baking Scotland and you're very welcome. The floor is yours. Thank you, Dara. Cheers. And if my gray hairs are anything to go by, I have aged three decades in the last few years. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me along to this. Much appreciated. And really, I'll probably keep my comments quite brief because I think it's better to answer questions, especially if you're a politician frankly. So just to give you a snapshot of where Scotland is at the moment and where Scotland has changed since 2014, which is really when my involvement in politics was formally started, so to speak. And how we've changed since then in a nutshell, essentially all the things that we warned would happen in the 2014 campaign have now happened. Essentially, Scotland being taken out of the EU against as well. It's something that Boris Johnson becoming Prime Minister, folk like Nigel Farage dictating what the narrative of society is essentially. So it has been quite a scary place, I think, over the last seven or eight years. And that in itself, I mean, I know I'm biased already supporting independence, but that in itself, I think has driven enough people to certainly question the UK as a whole. And it's one of the things that I actually said in the previous referendum campaign, which still holds true, which is if you were to imagine that Scotland was already an independent country, and you were being asked, do you want to join this union, the United Kingdom, what would the selling points be? Because quite frankly, there are none. And that has become abundantly clear over the last, certainly since I've been elected in politics. Because not only has the things that we warned against happened, but I think that UK politics as a whole has declined in quality over the last decade or so. And in particular, the one, the most recent example that comes to mind is Dominic Cummings, for instance. We have someone who has essentially brought in an age of politics where facts don't matter, or facts don't have to matter. And yet here he is on UK news media going, look, I have the facts as to why this government is terrible and lo and behold, nobody seems to care. And that is frankly scary for your political system to be, I suppose, for the bar to be so low as to what is acceptable behaviour and conduct. So there's an ocean of issues, quite frankly, that the UK has had over the last couple of years that I could talk about, and I'm sure we will talk about tonight. But in amongst all that, you have Scotland, which continually has shown time and time again that it wants to go in a different direction. And the fact that the SNP have won, you know, so many consecutive elections is actually a testament to not just the political party and the Scottish government, but it's also a testament to the direction that Scotland is travelling in. And where we've seen, I would argue, a rise in the far right, particularly in the UK. In Scotland, it's not been able to grip quite as deeply as it has in other parts of the UK. And the only way that I see Scotland actually freeing itself from the system entirely is and always has been independence. And we have a range of resources which have been frankly wasted by Westminster, have been neglected by Westminster and mismanaged. And we cannot afford to allow that to happen to another generation because we are still living with the issues that the previous generation created and the effects are long, long lasting. So we just cannot afford to give that up, frankly. Where it's incumbent upon folk like myself, particularly SNP or pro-independence politicians, is we need to try and convince people that we can do this. And part of the difficulty in that is unpicking this narrative that has been woven for years that Scotland is not good enough, that Scotland is a detriment to the rest of the UK. It's, we're a charity case, you know, we take resources from the UK much more than we produce and it's quite frankly just is not true, no matter which angle you look at it from. Scotland is a massive resource, natural, trade-wise, even population-wise, we have a very skilled workforce. For me, all the ingredients are there. It's just about the people now giving us the go-ahead to do it and us giving them the confidence to feel that they can do it. So I'll stop rambling on there and hopefully that'll have spurmed at least some questions. So yeah, thank you again for having me, Dara, back to you. Brilliant, thanks very much for that initial overview, Mary. And again, just as questions wise, you know, obviously Mary has focused her initial comments there on Scotland and the Scotland's future beyond possibly independence with Brexit now being reality, but she did say at the outset she was happy to take any other questions, which for anybody that joined later if you want to throw in any other sorts of questions to Mary, she's happy to expand the conversation. Just picking up on one of the points you made there, Mary, about sort of this sense that, you know, you mean you use the word charity case, I mean how obviously with hindsight now looking back at the 2014 election, you know, the stability of the UK back then was supposedly something that was, what does that look like now in 2021 post-Brexit with Boris Johnson at the helm? It's in tatters, I think, in every sense because even the UK government right now don't have a clue where Brexit's going to end up. They are making it up as they go and it's whatever they can do to save as much face as possible and spin whatever narrative they want, which is of course very unstable. Even in terms of how we work, I mean plenty of it's on the record but I was far from impressed with Westminster when I arrived in 2015 in terms of how it works, but over the last year in particular two years, we have much less notice of legislation that's coming forward, legislation changes at the last minute, we don't know things until literally maybe two days before, the day before, and it's deliberate tactics to create chaos and when your government is founded on managed chaos, that's just a recipe for disaster. And in actual fact, Scotland, I think, has been a credit to itself in being able to weather these storms as well as it has done, and particularly again, I know I'm biased, but Nicola Sturgeon as a leader throughout the pandemic in comparison to Boris Johnson, there was no competition whatsoever, one was state-like, one was informed and articulate, the other was nowhere to be seen essentially. So yeah, I do, I think that even the most staunch unionist would have to admit that the UK is not stable just now, and I think believing in the UK just now involves sort of hooking your hope onto something that I don't think is going anywhere. Okay, and then just other questions, there's a good few questions coming in, so obviously you've got the audience going, but one more for myself before I get there. Just in terms of the lessons from the Brexit referendum itself, you know, obviously you've been to 2014 referendum, we've seen 2016 where sort of the consequences and implications of things were not told through, you know, particularly from our point of view, we're over here in Ireland and we were screaming about the board and the board just didn't feature at all. You know, are there lessons that can be learned from how the referendum was carried out, and more importantly, sort of where you land after the referendum, it's all very well talking about the future, but where do you actually land and what are the implications going to be? Is there anything you can take from the failings of the Brexit referendum and apply to a potential future? Well, absolutely. I think so. The one thing that I have thought the Brexit process has been very useful for is having something to point at and go, this is what happens when you do it wrong. You know, because quite often the first thing that people say to me is, right, but why do you support being in that union, the EU, but not the UK? That doesn't make any sense. And as a sentence alone, yeah, you're right, that's a conflict, but they're two completely different unions. And one of them is, for all its faults, is very modern, very forward thinking and actually democratic. You know, and we've seen that play out throughout the Brexit process with Ireland, you know, all it took was Ireland to say, I'm not happy, or any one of the member states to say no, I'm not happy. And that was that. Nothing went further until that had been resolved. Compare that to the UK, where Scotland for the last 70 years now has had a government that it did not vote for, that it actively rejects and every general election time and time again, Scotland does not vote conservative, and yet we have had to spend all of the evolution, as I've known it, having to protect ourselves from these policies that we never voted for in the first place. So in that sense, I think that Brexit also was useful for showing that you have to have a clear plan of what you're doing, and you have to bring people with you. There's no point in doing something just for the sake of it. And for me, Brexit was also, as a campaign, was lacking in substance, because there are reasons and arguments for not being in the EU or for seeking out a sort of Norway status or, you know, something similar. But none of those arguments were the ones at the forefront. It was either absolute lies, or it was xenophobic, or it was outright racist, just dog whistles all throughout it. And when you've got a campaign and a constitutional movement, so to speak, that is built on that, I don't want to know where that ends up, because I think history tells us where it ends up. And that is just the exact opposite of what Scottish independence is about. I think for the vast majority of people who believe in independence, it epitomises everything that we don't want and everything that we want to get away from. And just while I'm babbling, while it's in my head, the other fundamental problem at the heart of Brexit, and I think the fundamental problem at the heart of the UK as a whole, is that nobody's got a clue what being British means, and yet it's at the heart of everything that this government does. You know, as far as I'm concerned from a Scottish perspective, British is synonymous with English. They use it interchangeably, the rest of the world uses it interchangeably. So does that tell us something? In that case, what is British culture? Is it just invading other countries? Because if it is, cool, but we need to deal with that. We need to talk about it, and there is just no room for that conversation to even happen in the UK just now, which in itself I think is a deeply telling and unhealthy thing, which is another reason why I think we want to get away. Just on that, I think you've touched on a little bit of this, Mari, but a question has come in from Owen O'Keefe, and he just talks about sort of having an inclusive referendum. And you know, sort of the way the two sides leave and remain, or sort of add each other's tropes, and even afterwards the sort of bloating that went on, you know, what can be done to have a more inclusive referendum, which brings the so-called losers along with you. You know, there's not some sort of zero-sum game. It's not 50 plus one, and that's it. But you know, you sort of have a conversation where you're bringing people along, and I suppose that's something that we're talking about on this island as well. So very interested to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, sure. Well, there's a couple of different things. Firstly, I would say that of course there's broader options like, you know, citizens assemblies and committees afterwards that you set up, you know, to make sure the processes as amicable as possible. But I would take the go a step previous to that and say that what's key for me is that we democratically have to achieve independence. I think that, you know, there's sometimes talk from independent supporters that we want UDI, that we want it just to declare independence. And have I frozen? Am I back? All right, I'm okay. Sorry. Sorry, I wasn't sure if it was you or me. My wi-fi has been fighting me for the last three days. So apologies if it is me. Sorry, what was I saying? What was I saying again? I've totally lost my train of thought. I'm actually not sure. I think my internet was gone for a little bit there. So yeah, Tilda's having wi-fi problems around the blink. There was a question. Yeah, I'll go back to the question. The question specifically was around having an inclusive discussion on the referendum so that the so-called losing soil doesn't feel, you know, that they're completely lost and the world is over. You mentioned constitutional conventions, Committees, etc afterwards. Perfect. So that's kind of one angle that you could go with it from. But I think that the imminent thing that we have to do is address disinformation. And I suppose there's an element of building the plane as we're flying it in that sense because disinformation is such a prominent growing problem and it's growing at an incredibly fast rate at which politicians I don't think are responding at an adequate pace. So until that's addressed, I think it's kind of difficult to ensure that everything's conducted fairly, if you understand what I'm saying. Even after the Brexit referendum, we've seen how toothless the electoral commission in the UK is. I mean, yeah, they'll slap you where fine, but if you're a millionaire, what does a fine matter? And that's a culture that you just don't want to see going anywhere. So I think that we would have to figure out a way to combat disinformation, whether that's through an independent commissioner specifically set up to monitor these things. But I would say that's the main thing that would have to be addressed. In terms of after of how you bring people together, I suppose, and I'm answering this from a politician point of view as opposed to a government point of view, but as a politician, the first thing to do is take the key people that were in the opposite campaign and get them at the centre of a committee or a council or whatever that would oversee the transition, because I think that's the only way that you can in good faith bring people with you is by showing them. And ultimately, I think just to say finally, the other thing is that in terms of the political parties in Scotland and the narratives that they have, not the Scottish conservatives, but the Scottish Lib Dems, Scottish Labour, the difference in messaging isn't that far apart. You know, in terms of the broad direction of a country, I think we share pretty similar goals. Yeah, we disagree about how to get there. But in terms of that, I think there's a lot of potential for building bridges after another referendum. Two related questions here, Mary, one from Ivana, and she said, you know, I lived in Scotland over 10 years ago and she thought that that Scotland should be independent, but she was actually surprised by the amount of people she encountered who, but I didn't want at all or very nervous about it. And what do you think can be done to bring those people on site? That's one question. A related question comes from Jeremy Harrison who's watching it as well. And again says, you know, despite successive victories for the SNP, you know, the polls haven't really moved that much in terms of favouring independence. So what can be done to convince those people who are yet to be convinced? And how soon? You know, the question everyone's asking is that the timeline, but how soon? So two related questions there, just on convincing people who are still a bit unsure, a bit nervous, and what do you think of the timeline? Well, it doesn't surprise me because I remember campaigning and I talk to people all the time that a lot of people are really ambivalent about independence in particular in 2014 when the kind of turmoil that we've seen over the last five years in particular seemed unimaginable to some people. It just wasn't worth the risk, you know, and it was all, it was very on the surface issues. And I found with a lot of people that they were actually quite, not that they would admit it, but they were quite frightened to actually engage in any shape or form because it was just like, no, I'm not going there. It's just, nope, I'm happy with what we get. It's the number of times I heard the phrase, better the devil, you know, it just rubbish, you know, means nothing in politics, but there you go. So that doesn't surprise me. And I think that you're right, the polls haven't changed all that much. But I think it is noticeable that the polls have went to a point where the results now not obvious. You know, like in 2014 certainly, had you told me at the start of the campaign that we were going to get 45%, I would have laughed that that seemed impossible, you know, and it shocked everybody so we have built a foundation that we can continue to build on. And I'm not as concerned about the polls not growing in any great numbers because a lot has been going on. And even just talking to people, it doesn't make it right, but a lot of people are just knackered with politics right now, they just can't be bothered engaging with it. So the thought of another referendum and another campaign, they're not exactly jumping in there about the idea. But on the other hand, because the process in 2014 I think was so informative and it actually was a really positive campaign. It was in every sense the opposite of the Brexit campaign that came after. But because of that, we actually had a really politically educated electorate, which is great, but it's terrifying for those in power, so to speak. And that's what I think we have to keep building on in order to point out to people that the vast majority of folk who support independence, much to, you know, although folk will tell you to the contrary, it's getting nothing to do with flags, nothing to do with patriotism or nationalism. It has purely to do with democracy. It's to do with wanting a better society and frankly getting the government she vote for being able to hold people to account. And throughout the last couple of years, and I think in particular over the next couple of years, people are going to start feeling the reality of what it means to have this Conservative government in power. And particularly when middle class people start to feel it, that's when you're going to see a real change in polls and you're going to see a real change in appetite, but we're nearly there, definitely. Interesting point where people just being knackered of politics, I think it's, yeah, I think people do just want a bit of calm for a little bit maybe. Question here from the colleague of mine, Clodagh, who works at me at the OAA, and you've touched on this a little bit around sort of the democratic, you know, positives of the EU. But how has the Brexit negotiation process shaped the Scottish outlook on, you know, becoming a member of the EU? You know, in the eyes of Scots, is the awareness of the EU now heightened, or are you sort of afraid of getting in the middle of the ongoing UK Brussels issues or what's what you sort of outlook from from a start perspective towards the EU? Honestly, I think that it's been a positive view of the EU that Scotland has had, and I think it has increased awareness of the EU and the amount that it benefits Scotland being part of the Union. But more so, I think that it serves as a great comparison, like I made the comparison earlier on, look at how the EU have conducted on behalf of Ireland, frankly, for most of the negotiations, and look at how Westminster represents Scotland. Every single term, everything was shut down. You know, I remember we came out with a paper in 2016, because our approach is if the UK Government aren't going to do the work, we'll do the work for them and then give it to them. So we did that 2016. Here's how we can actually have a Brexit where Scotland isn't too badly affected. We can just about live with us. And within ours, it was, nope, not doing it, not at all. And yet Northern Ireland, you know, fast forward 18 months, and yet Northern Ireland gets pretty much exactly what we asked for. It's just, you know, it speaks for itself. And if you thought that, in fact, not over this process, I would say more so, that it's actually been educational for the EU as well, understanding Scotland's point of view, because in 2014, to put it bluntly, the EU weren't friends of the yes campaign. They did not make life easy for us. You know, all the quotes that politicians made were to benefit David Cameron and the Better Together campaign. And I understand why that was their point of view. But in dealing with the UK and in seeing how Scotland acts compared to England in particular, I think a lot of, in fact, I know from speaking with them that a lot of the EU officials are now starting to get it and they're realising, you know, right, there is, Scotland actually would be far better. And there is also a difference in, I suppose, appetite to be part of the EU. And through those conversations, I have no doubt that Scotland would be welcomed with open arms into the EU as an independent country. And I think there's been plenty of examples of where, if the political will is there, the EU will do anything. And so, essentially, it's what we argue for. There he goes. Two related questions again. The questions are coming in very in sync, so that's good. Keep it up. One question from Stephen. And he asked specifically about sort of, you know, your vision for an independent Scotland and its relations with Ireland. And, you know, he references a recent Ireland-Scotland joint bilateral review, which was carried out from the Scottish Government, and what's your vision for that relationship. And then an interesting question, which I haven't really thought of myself, but it's come in from all in clarity. He said, very interesting discussion. Thanks for your contribution so far, Marie. And he says, what is the relationship like between the S&P and unionism in Northern Ireland? And does it exist? And what is the relationship like? And how would the Scottish independence movement obviously affect unionism in Northern Ireland? So, two different questions, but both regarding Scotland's relations on this island. So, to answer the first question, my vision of what an independent Scotland is, essentially I want to see a socialist republic. And I find that when you're talking to people, the word socialist in particular can get their backs up and going, oh, radical. But when you actually describe what it is you're wanting, I want the natural resources to be used for the benefit of the people that live there. I want fair taxation. I want people to have healthcare. And you start listing things. Suddenly, oh, that sounds great. Yeah, I want that Scotland too. So no matter what you call it, that's the Scotland I want to see is one where there's basically a bit of compassion to it. It recognizes humanity, I suppose. So that would be what I would hope for. And in terms of what our relationship to Ireland would be, frankly, I mean, we look to Ireland in admiration and to kind of lead examples, not just of what to do, but sometimes also what not to do or how to go about things differently. But Ireland has proven that constituent parts of the UK are not dependent on Westminster and actually they thrive better when the decisions are made by the people who live there. So I see nothing but I would hope a blossoming friendship there if Scotland was to become independent. Now, in terms of the SNP and unionism, the reason I laugh is because what unionism in Northern Ireland means is, I suppose, I call it diet unionism in Scotland, because where Ireland as a whole, both Northern Ireland and the Republic, have, of course, a very complicated history, a very intrinsic history that you don't need British politicians commenting on or giving their opinions on. But in Scotland, particularly, this is just more the West Coast of Scotland, it's about football, it's about Celtic and Rangers, it's under the guise of religious bigotry or religious differences, but it's about football and that to me makes it all the more pathetic in Scotland. So the SNP, I suppose, has a difficult relationship and that is a fine line to walk and I'm quite happy dismissing people who live their lives dictated by a football team. But when it steps into the, I suppose, the more deep seated sectarianism and I suppose the more hardcore unionism that you see in Northern Ireland in particular, I think it's a different kettle of fish. It's all from the same tree but that requires more attention and more understanding and that is built on what has perceived cultural differences so let's talk about them, let's try and figure out how we can move forward together. So in that sense, the SNP has a cautious relationship and we don't want to offend anybody needlessly, but equally let's talk about some stuff because especially if you're angry, which a lot of unionists seem to be. Okay, look, we'll jump off topic slightly. There's loads of questions in on Scotland and Scotland's future but just as a different way just to give us a bit of break from that. There's a question here from Hannah, Hannah DC and she says, great to hear from you, Mary. Wonder if Mary has any thoughts or reflections on what it's like to be a young MP and how parliamentary politics can be reformed so it's more accessible and inclusive, both in terms of elections and also parliamentary day to day business and more inclusive young people so just your thoughts on that and then we go back to the Scottish stuff. Cool. Well, I think God reflecting on my experience has been a bit mad and now it's much better not just because I'm older but because there has been a great increase in the number of under 30s elected in the last few months and so in that sense, it's a baby step in the right direction, I suppose, but Westminster in particular, inclusive isn't a word I would use to describe it at all. I remember, I mean, even just in the most basic sense, I remember in 2015, my gran was coming down to visit and she had to come in a wheelchair and navigating that building in a wheelchair is scandalous. Honestly, it's unbelievable. And because of that and because of the nature of the job and the traditions of the job, which is pretty much what dictates most things, which is weird. It's just, I think it is a very difficult place for young people to kind of find their feet in or want to get involved in to start off with, but particularly young women and women in general. You know, I look to a lot of my older colleagues, I just think, how are you able to do this when we're sitting in the corridors facetime and they're three year old child and it's just, you know, half 11 at night and the only reason that we're there is because some people have decided to force a vote, even though we're going to lose it. You know, it's just a really bizarre way of working. And quite frankly, if Parliament and how it functions was a private business, it would be shut down in a heartbeat. I mean, there's literal mice running about the building. It's falling apart. Bits are cordoned off because concrete will just fall as you're walking past. It's really bizarre, but it reinforces this real arrogant superiority to the rest of the world. You know, because in it, I'm talking about it like it's a thing, right? But in Westminster's minds, it's still the British Empire, you know, it's still all that pompousness, all that arrogance. It just really lets itself down. And there have been moves in the right direction, but not nearly enough. And for example, as I was saying to you before we started this, the hybrid Parliament has been phenomenal and it would open up opportunity for a lot of people and increase accessibility for a lot of people into Parliament. And you can do the job just as well. In fact, some ways I would argue, we're able to do it better because not so much time is taken up, faffing about. But they're pulling that in September, it's going to go back to the queues and the bobbing and all the rest of it. So I don't hold out much hope, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't difficult being young in politics. Was that the only thing you asked? Yes, it was a specific question, sort of inclusivity. So I mean, in terms of sort of changing things, I mean, how could you make it more inclusive? How could you attract and try and encourage young people to get involved? Because obviously people like yourself give voice to so many young people who just feel it's not for them and that's not my game, it's the stuffy old person's game. So is there any insights or thoughts, you know, having been there now for coming on six years? I think the first thing is political parties have a responsibility to make sure that people can afford to be candidates. And if you can't afford to be a candidate off your own back, then support should be in place for you to do it. Because I know that some parties have introduced that and the SNP introduced that a couple of years ago, but you know, like all things, it could be much more effective and robust. But I suppose that's a good starting point, certainly so that you're getting, because politics attracts the absolute worst and a slither of the best. You know, and that's kind of, you don't really want that scenario. So it's trying to figure out how can you change that. And I think making Parliament much more accessible, being able to, I suppose, make it much more flexible as well and bring it into the 21st century, frankly, it would be a major step in getting folk putting themselves forward, because right now you've got way too much to lose, you know, unless you're a 20 year old that doesn't know better. But I suppose look going back to the possibility of independence and there's two questions on borders. And, you know, very topical obviously to the Irish case, and given the issues surrounding the Northern Ireland protocol. And, you know, what do you think that the Scottish even this border would look like. That's one question that comes from Mark second question comes in from killing Malay. The difficulty of the of the UK removing itself from a larger trading block of the EU has been exposed. And now you're looking to move yourself from that block. And, you know, how do you see the challenges emerging there from a trade point of view from an economic development point of view. And so yeah, two questions on borders, which I think were inevitable, given the subject matter. Right, so to answer the first question on the border. The honest answer is I have no idea what the border would look like if Scotland voted for independence. But that's not for one of trying. And in terms of the SNP and the yes campaign more broadly. We have all made explicitly clear that we have no desire whatsoever to implement a hard border. Why would we is in nobody's interest and the EU shows that it is not necessary. If you can manage it properly. And so the obstacles would not be coming from us. The same can't be said for who we would be negotiating with as the EU will tell you. So in that case, that's why I'm saying I don't know what it would look like because it would totally depend on how the UK negotiates what they negotiate. But for all the reassurance that we could give, there is no desire from pro yes political parties to have anything close to that. Because a lot of what the yes campaign and the vision of independence is based upon is trying to bring Scotland into the world. Rather than being dependent on London to conduct business internationally on our behalf, being able to do it ourselves and actually being neighbors equal neighbors as opposed to what we've had to endure. You know, for the last couple of years. And in terms of the second question, which was, I can't read to my own notes there. It was broadly related. It was similar. It was very similar on the border issue. But I suppose it was just about separating yourself from the trading block. We've had such deep relations with with with the UK and how would that look. Well, that I think is dependent a lot on what I've talked about and the kind of Scotland we want to build. And if Scotland votes for independence in the near future, say the next five years, I truly believe that there would be no desire to see Scotland moving a different direction as to what I've just described. Certainly not to set it up, but this is where I suppose I think the arguments for independence become stronger, not just from what I said earlier on in terms of you being a better union than the UK quite frankly. But it's also in terms of how Scotland is managed and it frustrates me to no end. Every year, the chairs figures come out and are you aware of what the chairs figures are just it's basically it's an economic snapshot of the UK and how we're doing basically. So these chairs figures are brought out every year and the point to Scotland where Scotland has terrible numbers and has a giant deficit and they say look, you wouldn't be able to be independent. The irony of that is that document is telling us how Scotland is managed by Westminster. We don't make the economic policy, they guys do. So to me it's so ironic when they wheel these figures out as though it's something to, you know, boast with pride about when in actual fact all it proves is that Scotland is mismanaged and to give you a couple of concrete examples, which ties into the EU part. Recently I was up in Orkney with one of the Parliament committees and one of the experts there was telling us that Denmark and the UK were pretty similar in terms of resource potential and ability in terms of investing in wind power. And this was in the 1980s, of course, new technology. Now, the UK, of course, thatcher, very, you know, deregulated, pro-capitalist, she decided, and her government decided, no, we're not going to invest in wind. We just want to get it operating at the cheapest we possibly can, which of course meant that yes, folk were buying up lots, but we weren't harnessing the resource that we had. Whereas Denmark, which is a tenth of the size of the UK, did invest. And as a result of that, I think it was in 2019 or something, the wind power was worth, I think it was seven point something billion euros for Denmark, which is the equivalent of what the arms trade is worth in the UK industry. Can you imagine if we had actually invested properly in renewables instead of in the arms industry, how much more we'd have to offer. So that's had an icon effect in Scotland where we are pride place to invest in renewables, but it's not happening. Similarly, when Norway discovered oil, the same time that Scotland discovered oil, and yet they used it responsibly, set up the oil fund. Thatcher used our oil money just to fill a black hole of debt, just to keep the books looking good. And as a result of that, we now have some of the worst poverty right beside the exact spot of where the resource that is worth a fortune was found. I think that as we move forward, particularly with tidal energy, with media, with the tourism, Scotland can't afford to let these resources go to waste for another generation. I was wanting to invest properly in all of these areas, not only will benefit massively Scotland, but that will benefit the rest of the world and it will benefit our international image with the rest of the world and how we relate to the rest of the world. So when you keep in mind that the UK is what, seven times smaller than the size of the EU single market, if Scotland lives up to its potential and is able to make decisions in its own interests, then I see no reason or argument as to why Westminster would not want to kind of get a bite of the apple so to speak. So I don't have concerns there, I think Scotland has a positive international future ahead of it if it goes independent. Okay, question here, and we will wrap up in a couple of minutes as well. So any final questions, please do submit them. Alex, and he says thanks very much for your presentation. Alex Foyth, and he says thanks very much for coming along and speaking to us this evening. And he says, you know, if you meet someone who sort of, you know, digs the heels in and says absolutely no way to independence, you know, what is the most persuasive argument you have over your sleep. I think you've just given us a bit of a sample of that in terms of Scotland being in charge of its own destiny. And the other question that I wanted to ask as well comes from Vera, and it's back to the timeline issue. And, you know, is the success, potentially of in the US to reliant on what might happen in Northern Ireland, in terms of possibly getting the the government to buckle and give in for that to happen. So sort of a race of referendums there. So two different questions, both interested to get your views on both of them. What's your most persuasive argument, and are you in a sort of race with Northern Ireland to see if they guess, is the United Nations force, and then you might follow. So I think the most persuasive argument, and it would actually probably be the one that I made earlier, but doing it properly and saying, look, what are the positives, what would be the arguments for joining the UK, your government will move 400 miles away. You actually won't get government you vote for. You will routinely have to fork out billions for nuclear weapons, which we know you don't want, but your neighbour will decide what you can spend your money on and how much you can spend on. They'll also decide what areas they'll let you make your own mind up. It's just nuts. And similarly, you know, one of the simplest ways to convey it to people is to say, look, imagine a house. Would you let your neighbour run your house, dictate how much of your wages you got? You wouldn't. And if you did have that set up and you brought it to an end, there's no reason why you wouldn't still live beside each other. So I suppose it is as simple as that. I suppose when you talk to different people, it's about trying to find out what their niggle is, what is it that they're worried about, you know, because for some people it's something as simple as their pension, their free bus pass. They want to make sure that they're going to still have their house if we vote for independence. Simple stuff. But as a broad all argument, I would say the one that I've made. In terms of Scotland being in a race with Northern Ireland, I mean, I suppose depending on what your viewpoint is, I don't know if we're going to the same finish line. But yes, I do. I think that Scotland, it's not racing Northern Ireland. It's rather watching with great interest because half of the reason why the UK government have are in such a difficult position that they've put themselves in is because with one side of their face, they are saying to Scotland, no, you can't be independent and have a soft border. It can't happen. So no, it's going to be a hard border. You're not going to be able to see your English family unless you travel with a passport. You know that immediately throws people off. But then with the other side of their face, they're going into negotiations in Brussels and going, yeah, it will be a problem. Of course, come on. And at some point, those two negotiators talk to each other and realise, or you didn't promise them that, did you? Oh, I thought, okay, so they know they're in this position. And that's why you see such bizarre spin coming from them. Because if they can do anything to portray it other than the downright hypocrisy that it is, it's just, yeah. So I think we watch Northern Ireland to keep an eye on what's happening. But also, I do think there's an element of solidarity there, though. And that is certainly those who were alive before the peace process. I think there is a genuine solidarity and that it can never go back to that. And God help the person who does put it back to that, because if you're coming up to anything. So yeah, not a race, but watching with interest. Brilliant. Mario, coming towards the end, one final question for me and we'll finish up then. Let's assume you're still in politics and we have an independent Scotland, assuming you're in the cabinet, you're a minister in an independent Scotland. What would you like to be a minister of? And what would be the first item on your list to fix? I've always wanted to be the minister of General Mayhem and Mishief. That would be a cool title. I suppose that I would actually like to be in charge of finance. I would love to be chancellor for a day and just have a clear out. Just a total change of system. Here's how we're going to function from this date. That's it. I made that sound a bit dictator-y. Little bit. Here. Okay, brilliant. Look, Mario, thanks so much for your time. You only gave us five minutes of an opening and then we've just had questions, questions, questions. We've been all over the place for different questions. So really, really appreciate the time you've given us this evening in a heatwave in July. So thanks very much. And look, hopefully when we're back up and running in the IA in person, we might be able to get you over for a talk in person and get to the visit Dublin. Thanks again and enjoy our summer break. Excellent. No, thank you for having me and thank you to everybody for listening to me drone on. Thank you. Cheers. Good luck. Cheers. Bye bye.