 community matters here. Aloha and welcome to Stand the Energy Man on Think Tech, Hawaii. I'm Rachel James, also known as Rachel the Energy Woman, filling in for Stan Osserman. Today we are excited to be delving deeply into the intricacies of energy through a conversation about how communities, governments, developers, and others are thinking about harnessing power. I'm pleased to be able to spend the next half hour on this discussion with our friendly third Friday officiant on all things energy and engineering, Mr. Ryan Wibbins. Welcome Ryan. Hi, thank you. It's like deja vu, like we've been here before. It feels like we've been here before. Thanks for joining us on the show today. If you could, share a little bit about yourself, what you do, why you do it. Okay, sure. So I come on every third Friday and since I'm an electrical engineer, Stan brings me on. We talk a little bit about energy. He's the energy man. Yes. I come in and I talk more about microgrids if possible, energy usage in the utility grid in general and really wherever he wants to go. It's tiny homes. We've talked tiny homes. Tiny homes and toilets. You bet. Okay, so we're going to start a little energy journey today about community solar. And so in the context of microgrids, or perhaps in another context if you wish, what is community solar? Sure. Community solar can and can, could not be associated with microgrids if we want. Let's keep it, let's say it is associated with a microgrid first. Sometimes this is a little bit easier because when you think of a microgrid, you're going to think geographic. Let's say there's a new little community being built somewhere or an existing one and they together want to build their own solar array. Maybe they can't put it on their houses because of trees, but they've got a little land that they, that they cooperatively own, they put in a solar array and they use that to help their local community as well as in agreements with their public utility. Okay. If we want to call it a microgrid, maybe they also have the ability if the local utility goes down for whatever reason unplanned or planned, they can stay powered off of their solar. That would be like a community solar microgrid. It would need a lot more components than just solar to work, but that would be a microgrid. In other ways, community solar is addressed, is really a community localized or not localized geographically. Maybe it's every other house, at least people want to support an energy project and that being community solar. So it would be like people in the community being able to support and receive benefits from that project. Okay. That second one make a little sense because that second one can get a little trickier. It sounds a little hairy. It's like, what do you mean? I'm part of a community, but I'm not part of the community, but I'm paying, but I'm not benefiting directly. We could, we could tease that out if you'd like. Sure. I think that's, that's one of the interstices of the, of the current docket actually with the community solar for Hawaii. When you install a solar panel on your house, you're receiving the benefits immediately. It is going to you to your refrigerator during the day. And then if there's anything extra, it's going back out to the utility. So when you buy that solar panel, you are the direct recipient of that power immediately. It's physically on how it's placed. It's going to go through your house first. When you talk of community solar, maybe it's a renter that is renting a house, but they don't have the ability to put solar on top of that, that roof, the roof that they don't own, or maybe you live in a high-rise and you definitely don't have that ability. But you still want to have an option to support a renewable energy project. Now you could go into a community solar down the road, maybe on the other side of the island even, and help support that project. Now as they produce power, it's supposed to. There's a lot harder way to make this work, but it's supposed to offset your bill as it's producing as you're consuming. Now there's a lot of, I want to say no-no, it doesn't technologically equate that way. Just because you produce it over there, it doesn't mean it goes through the cable and it just shows up at your house. So there's a very high technical difficulty and that's why traditionally that has not been allowed. Interesting. So you mentioned a docket currently. We can delve into the docket briefly. It's a deep and an expensive one. That's so Hawaii is foremost, as I understand, in establishing a community-based renewable energy program. So one that builds on the concept of community solar but allows other renewable energy technologies to be kind of implemented in this community solar style. And that started back in 2015. We had ACT 100 that essentially required our utilities to put forth a tariff for community-based renewable energy. So from 2015 to now, the docket's been progressing in the Public Utilities Commission and they've been discussing what a program framework would look like, discussing what a tariff would look like. And so we've gotten pretty far along in that process, but we're still awaiting a final order. So as we think about community-based renewable energy and we talk about communities and community members coming together, it's an interesting discussion to kind of identify who those community members are and what that looks like for people engaging. So I'm not sure how familiar you are with the docket, but as I understand it, there's subscriber organizations, which are kind of the convening entities that would gather subscribers or community members, and that subscriber organization would develop the project and essentially sell that power to the utility. So as a community member, if I want to invest in a project, what are some of the things that I might need to be aware of? As a community member investing, I think, I don't know, actually. I think those entities need to maybe be a little more developed before you can start asking the questions directly to them. I would start asking questions, well, on what the rate is and how it's going to affect me, comparing it to your current utility bill, maybe another part of those questions, but it'll get much deeper depending on how those specific entities want to operate because they're the ones going to be maintaining and operating the unit. If that were to go down for maintenance or need a major repair, how does that affect the subscriber's short-term and long-term? Okay. So for engagement for an entity like the one in which you are employed, I guess how does an entity like that engage in a community solar project? Sure. So I work for Burns McDonald. We are a consulting engineering firm with construction services as well. We would get engaged in a project like community solar when a developer or a client already has maybe a project that they want to develop. If you wanted to develop a community sort, you would come to us and say, I'm ready. I think I have some land here. I think I know what I need solar-wise. I think I know what I need storage-wise because that's part of that docket now too. How can you help me? And then we would come in as the engineers and really draw that up for you and how that would work out. I see. So we're going to role-play a minute. You can be yourself. I'll be a developer. All right. I can do that. Okay. So I want to build a one-megawatt solar and wind farm somewhere in Hawaii. What information do you need for me to start that? Do you have somebody that you want to buy from exclusively? Buy from like a manufacturer. If you're going out and buying a specific manufacturer that's going to really put me into a down-the-road sooner because I don't have to think a lot. I have a selection of let's say part numbers to go from. I want to want to know where you want to put it and then that's really where we'll start and then we'll continue with some conversations. Okay. Beyond that. Do I need to know things like wind regimes and solar penetration and do I need to know as a developer the details of the area that I'm thinking of or do I just need to pick a spot on the map and say, that looks open. I'd like to build there. If you already have it, I would recommend even coming to us and help doing that study to find out how much sun and wind you have available. Okay. That's just us. Any, not any, but there are plenty of engineering firms or consultants out there that can help you with that. Okay. But yeah, geographically you're going to change a lot as far as your solar and wind capabilities. Okay. So if I come to you with a plan that I think is pretty well-baked and then we identify that maybe that's not the best place to place my resources, how much direction do you provide and what might be a better alternative or do you just wait for me to do a little bit more due diligence and come back with a better plan? I'm sure if you did it, it's probably perfect for the first time. Yeah, probably. But absolutely we would and many others would provide recommendations on maybe a better option for you if available. Okay. So here in Utopia of community solar being ubiquitous, what is the community solar project in Hawaii look like? Or community, we'll just say community renewables. Sure. Community renewables. To me in my own Utopia, it's very, because I'm going to come from the electrical engineering side where I kind of wanted to be, I'm going to say easy, but let's say simple. Yeah. Let's say simple. Simple is good. I would want it to be geographical. I would want a community such as if it's Kanaeoe, that community going in and supporting their renewables in the Kanaeoe area. Okay. That has a lot of benefits too politically where when you start putting in a wind turbine or a solar panel somewhere, the people that are supporting that are literally supporting it financially too. So they're not also supporting it financially and then raising their hand and say, well, I don't like the way that looks. Right. That seems to be somewhat common. So politically it has that nice part, but technologically it's much easier to prove and use the power consumed versus where the power is generated. In other people's utopias, it's anybody can support any project going on anywhere and they're not necessarily responsible for how an electron gets from A to B. That poses a lot more technological difficulties. Okay. And politically it's kind of attached too because somebody is supporting those power lines. If you're producing power, on a small island it's not as big of a deal, but if you're producing power really far away but you're consuming it in a completely different location, it costs money to get power to you where you're located and that might not be associated generally with the same cost for the power that it costs you to make it somewhere else. So it's not really a one for one, even though we'd like it to be. Just science. I didn't invent science. You just manipulate it or use it right? Use it. Use it. Yeah. Move it like in a good way. Use it. Yes. Everything in a good way. So you mentioned something interesting, localized use and production as opposed to sending power and taking power to move power. You also mentioned some political things which always get a little bit exciting. So in terms of your average Joe who learns about a developer who's coming into their community to propose a project, do I as average Joe or Jane? Do I need to know anything about renewable energy or do I just need to come to a community meeting or talk to Burns and McDonnell representatives like how do I engage to be an informed participant? An informed participant in just consuming or producing renewable energy? Commenting generally on a community renewable project. Sure. I think starting in the community is a great place to start. Any time that the local utility is putting on events, they do a lot of events that are supporting the renewable goals of 2045 and how they're going to get there. Those are probably the most impactful because that utility will have the most impact on all consumers. Yeah, actually that's going to be your best place to go. Is any event that the local utility will host? Okay. So average consumers should engage more readily with our local utility. Absolutely. Okay. And Hawaiian Electric is very open. They are wanting that community involvement. They are very aware that they're not trying to get too far without the community. As utilities on the mainland have learned that when they're not engaging their customer base, not everybody is as happy and HIKO is taking a different approach for that. I see. So in Hawaii generally, I understand that we take different approaches and HIKO taking a different approach in many ways just being the only state to commit to 100% renewable energy by any identified date, but then taking on the challenge of distributed energy and really what that looks like for a multi-island state. So as we think about geographically how the different counties have very unique characteristics both as individuals and population but also land and wind and rain and sun, what does community energy perhaps look like in a place that doesn't have a lot of renewable assets immediately available? So perhaps I live in a place that doesn't have a great deal of solar or wind. Is there still an opportunity for me to have localized power? Renewable localized power? There is. It's just more difficult. The leading renewable energy generation sources are solar and wind. They've been around a long time. They're improving in their technology and getting cheaper in cost. Those are going to be the easiest ones. When those come off, the availability list, hydro has already been done wherever it's going to be done at this point, so let's scratch that one off as well. Now you're talking about transporting your renewable energy. So you would need to be connected to a grid where renewables are being produced on the other side of that grid reporting. Now you need to be starting to transport a renewable resource. That could be something incredibly effective with just a battery. Maybe you drive to town, you go charge your car and you drive home and you power your home. That in theory would work. Or maybe down the road there's some type of a way to actually transport it like a renewable energy that Stan loves and you guys love is hydrogen. I'm definitely leading you to hydrogen. Hydrogen is a great energy density resource that can be transported. So we will delve deeply into hydrogen. Thanks for letting me lead you there. Yeah. But we'll take a break for a moment and be back with our audience in just a moment. Guys, don't forget to check me out right here at the Prince of Investing. I'm your host, Prince Dykes, each and every Tuesdays at 11 a.m. Hawaii time. I'm going to be right here. Stop by here from some of the best investment minds across the globe. And real estate, finances, stocks, hedge funds, managers, all that great stuff. Thank you. She's sad. All the better to see you with my dear. Research says reading from birth accelerates the baby's brain development. And you're doing that now? Oh, yeah. Yeah. This is the starting line. Push! You're dead. Read aloud 15 minutes. Every child. Every parent. Every day. Aloha and welcome back to Stan the Energy Man. I'm Rachel the Energy Woman and in a moment we'll be talking with Ryan Rebens. Wubbins. Gosh, R-dubs. I'm going to go with R-dubs. That works. Okay, great. Thanks for leading us and allowing me to lead you into the space of hydrogen. And so we last spoke about energy density, hydrogen being a good energy carrier. And then we chatted a little over the break about just the space required for renewable energy. So as we talk about community-based renewables, we talk about solar and wind and just generally how we access programs like this, what does space requirements have to do with that discussion?